Discussion on Indian Epics, Texts, Treatises & Kathas

naren · Post by **naren** » 28 Jul 2010 05:49

brihaspati wrote:Talking was not actual. It was more a telepathic communication. I actually got quite angry and even in my semi-sleep, I threatened to chase "her" out - that she dares to "disturb" me and tries to scare me in a vision. Then the face changes and sort of ashamed and says that she is hungry and that no one has given her fruit. She was evening blue with a tinge of flame.

I practiced certain things in the forest near my grandparents place, and then of course saw different forms of "her". I did not use any of the stuff of the stories, such as skulls, alcohol or women. Just a fire and intense concentration. Ultimately it began to frequentlly take the form of a rather attractive woman who always appeared with her head slightly bent down and eyes not making contact, as if in shame. She would have her head partially covered but the body outline would be clearly visible through the wrapped garment. It would also give the impression of a fire burning within a bronze shell of her body. The kulaguru visiting at this time sensed the presence and said that I should not continue, as "she" was coming as "pryia" and the 7 forms in this category were almost inevitably dangerous for a 16 year old. I was also asked not to be in the house when they wanted to give offerings to "ancestors", as he said I was a repellant and scarer of spirits - (an obstacle apparently in that line of spiritual quest). The blue form has visited me from time to time but stopped after a certain date which is significant for me personally.

I have interacted with some from the Tibetan schools of Tantra. The texts are interesting but I cannot read them directly. From what i have learnt from them by probing appears to confirm what I have experienced. I will have to say, that I keep an open mind on this - neither believing nor rejecting. The texts and the practitioners should be explored with both logic and intuition (each keeping a check on the other) and there is a lot to learn and filter. I will perhaps need several lifetimes to do this!

Very interesting and a little bit scary.

Thanks for sharing.

Can you provide any link for the bolded part pls ?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Jul 2010 07:55

Look for the 64 forms of Shakti in which she can be "called" in the major Tantras. Those 64 are divided into mother daughter and wife/lover categories. I would rather not go into details as it would go into OT directions.

(This is different from the 16/10 yogini/mahavidyas)

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Jul 2010 08:04

B ji when did you get time to indulge into such exotic stuff what about school and khel-kood ?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 28 Jul 2010 08:14

I never studied in school - did "mastani" and ran an up and coming mafia according to my school principal. My parents got me college and uni level texts and I had a near photographic memory - so about a weeks intense absorption of material before the exams would be good enough. Rest of the time was spent making life hell for teachers and the school neighbourhood. Even one month before school leaving exams I had a merry time organizing a fest.

Played soccer and had an evil reputation. But any chance I would go off to climb and trek - that was my sports, and 10,000 m runs (I was the heavy type and not a great one at sprint) and swimming.

That should give a pretty good idea! I was so good that they split up our class an put each section in different wings at a particular class level. The mafia leadership was split carefully. Alas the mafiosi proved efficient networkers and signals began to be quickly organized to coordinate booing of disliked teachers across the wings.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 28 Jul 2010 09:32

A free translation of an article on Guru sampradaya by Sri Malladi Venkata Krishna Murty garu.

Aum sadasiva samarambham Samkaracharya madhyamam
asmat' acharya paryantam vande guru paramparam||

Gu-Ru
1. Gu = Sat, Ru = Knowledge >> A person with knowledge of Sat.

2. Gu = Avidya = Ignorance, Ru = destroyer of >> One who destroys ignorance

3. Gu = One without any Guna, Ru = Without any form

Bhagavan Vyasa was born to Parashara maharshi and Matsyagandhi on Ashadha Paurnami. That day is celebrated as "Guru Paurnima" as Vyasa gave us Vedas, 18 Puranas and Mahabharata consisting of BhagavadGita.

Vyasa's cave can be seen in Mana village near Badarinadh. This is the only place where River Saraswathi is present in physical form (today).

Brahmanda Purana says that Dattatreya is the guru in Kritayuga, Dakshinamurthy in Tretayuga, Hayagriva in Dwaparayuga and Krishna Dwaipayana Vyasa is the guru in Kaliyuga.

There are four types of gurus
1. Bodha guru = The guru that gives the absolute knowledge.

2. Vedaguru = The guru that teaches Vedas (and sciences) in Gurukula

3. Nishiddha Guru = Guru that teaches tantrik methods (vamachara) which are denounced by Vedas.

4. Kamya Guru = One who teaches the puja methods that are used to fulfill one's materialistic wishes.

A story on Guru-shishya sampradaya.

A bachelor named Deepaka read the following statements as part of his studies one day

"For a pativrata husband is the god, for a son parents are gods, for a student the Guru is the absolute parambrahma."

Impressed by this statement, Deepaka left the house and met a seer named Vedadharma on the banks of Godavari river.

In no time Deepaka became the most favored student of Vedadharma by impressing him with his reverence, discipline, and interest in Moksha.

One day Vedadharma told Deepaka - "Dear son, I was able to destroy all my sins, except two of them, with my penance. Those two sins are horrible. I have decided to go to Kasi and live thru those sins. Due to those sins I will become blind and get leprosy. Due to those sins I will be come very intolerant. Would you be able to serve me in that situation?".

Deepaka replied "Dear gurudeva, why all that trouble? You transfer those sins to me and I will live them".

Vedhadharma replied "My son, you will get more benefit by serving me than owning and living them. All you need is patience."

Both Guru and Student reached Kasi and worshiped lord Viswanatha and mother Annapurna. The Vedadharma invited his sins and requested them to occupy him. He turned blind and infected with leprosy.

Due to those sins soon Vedadharma lost his affection for Deepaka and started getting irritated at him. He would shout at Deepaka who brings his food and cleans his body and extra.

Deepaka did not lose his patience at any moment and served his Guru with utmost reverence.

One fine day lord Viswanatha came infront of Deepaka and told him that he was greatly impressed by Deepaka's guru bhakti and offered him a boon.

Deepaka replied Viswanatha that "I don't have any other god except my Guru. I will seek whatever he commands. My guru is sleeping now and I will ask him what he wants once he gets up."

Deepaka informed Guru about what happened once he is awake. Deepaka sought Vedadharma's permission to ask for removal of his sins.

Vedadharma did not agree to that saying "every one should live their sins. And you must not disobey that Dharma".

When Viswanatha returned with the boon, Deepaka asked for "unrelenting reverence towards his Guru".

Deepaka attained moksha by gaining jnana thru sat-guru VedaDharma.

Sri AdiSamkara warned about looking for a sat-guru in his Bhajagovindam

Jatilo munde lumjita kesha:
Kashayambara bahukruta vesha:
Pasyannapi cha na pasyati moodha:
Udara nimittam bahukruta vesha: ||

A true guru is like an arrow mark, not a vehicle. He shows the path, but doesn't take the student to the destination himself. The seeker has to reach his destination himself.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jul 2010 09:36

Some of our gurus here are like that only.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 28 Jul 2010 09:58

BajKhedawal wrote:Negi this temple was right in the middle of the village square. Idol in clear display for all to see through iron rods spaced 2-3 inches apart, with villagers going about their usual business & rustic traffic with a few devotees of all sizes.

Brihaspati there's no way now that I can get a picture, I don’t even know the name of the place except that its on the way from Siwana to Nakoda. Idol posture was more like a wicket keeper sitting down but idol's back was straighter sort of rigid, knees more apart (90 degrees), and arms not in the way of his erect benis (unlike the picture attached for reference the idols butts were resting on his heels, more of a resting position rather than the ready to get up kind). Although the idol looked like painted with modern colors it could have been old as you suggest but the enclosure was new iron cast and unusually strong, why would they fortify him inside like that?

BajKhedawalji, indeed there have been claims of a form of Krodha Bhairava which is the form taken by Bhairava immediately after Rudrataandavam or Rudra Bhairava Tandavam. As you probably know, Taandavam is the dance of destruction, after which the Krodha Bhairava seeks out his consort (Shakti/Sati/Durga/Parvati) for copulation. The act brings down the residual rage of Bhairava.

It is equivalent to Mahishasura-mardini stepping on a prostrate Shiva and subsequently copulating with her husband as a means of anger reduction and stress management.

Bhairava might have been one of the well endowed deities in later Harappan-Saraswati civilisation, which accounts for the location.

Fortification might be protection against vandals/blasphemous elements and invading Islamic forces. I guess that the metallic fortification is just one of the recent ones, formerly the shrines might have been camouflaged or buried.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 28 Jul 2010 10:08

Klaus:

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 28 Jul 2010 10:37

Ramana garu, The centremost triangle holds the most importance as far as I am concerned. Mahakala/Mahakali, Mrityunjaya/Shakti, Svacchanda Bhairava and Kameshwara are the manifestations of the 6 temperaments and their interactions with male/female, matter and energy. I might even be wrong in saying that the deity was Krodha Bhairava, it might even be more fundamental depiction, as the layout takes on increasingly worldly and complex attributes as we 'progress' from the innermost triangle. Nevertheless, there is the line being drawn through anger, lust, attraction, cyclical creation and destruction.

An analogy can be drawn from physics wherein a particle has to go through different energy states and it possesses a different wave fucntion at each energy state.

naren · Post by **naren** » 28 Jul 2010 12:38

brihaspati wrote:Look for the 64 forms of Shakti in which she can be "called" in the major Tantras. Those 64 are divided into mother daughter and wife/lover categories. I would rather not go into details as it would go into OT directions. (This is different from the 16/10 yogini/mahavidyas)

Mucho gracias

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 28 Jul 2010 14:36

A book by Harish Johari "Tools for Tantra" explains some basics of tantra and yantra. Though not very academic and lacks depth, has good coloured plates of yantra and procedures to create yantra.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Aug 2010 06:40

putnanja wrote:
Pulikeshi wrote: Has D-I every been sustainable? If not, I am not sure why Krishna tried that...
More thoughts on this front are welcome.
I don't think Krishna thought Yudhishtira would go in for the game of dice the second time too. That started the unraveling of Kuru power. After the pandavas went to the forests after losing the game of dice, Krishna meets them and says that if he was there, he would have prevented the game from taking place. Krishna in fact tells Yudhishtira that what he had done was plain wrong.

True, putnanja ji..

There are accounts of Krishna in Jain traditions where he is shown as a disciple of Acharya Ghor Angirasa aka Neminath aka Arishtanemi who was a vrishni yadava himself and a cousin of Krishna.

This is mentioned in Harivamsha as well as in Chhandogya Upanishad. Krishna was emotionally devastated upon learning about the exile of Pandavas. He was busy fighting "Saubha pati Shalwa" when Yudhishthira was busy loosing the empire in game of dice. He got the news when he returned to Dwarika after this war. Krishna experienced this "Vishaad-yoga" and learnt Brahmavidya and found peace at the ashrama of Rishi Ghor Angirasa. It was angirasa who introduced him and reminded him about samkhya-yoga and other "Gnana-Margas". It is said that after staying here for few months, Krishna regained his poise and went to meet Pandavas in Dwaita-vana.

When we think of Krishna as a human being like you and me, all this makes sense.. None of the Indic Devas are outlandish. They are as human as we are and they are as divine as we are. They were people amongst us, who rose and protected the institution of Dharma. The translation of Gods = Devas is another example of deracination which I will explore shortly on Deracination thread. God and Deva are not synonyms. They aren't even distantly related.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 04 Aug 2010 07:57

can tantra be practiced without any guru guidance?

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 04 Aug 2010 09:24

Atri,

I remember the passage from Chandogya. However, there is also Sandeepa Maharishi who is considered the traditional guru of Krishna, Balarama, Sudama and the sons of King Jayatsena.
It is said that Krishna and Balarama learnt - Dhanurvidya and Astras in 64 days, Vedas in 50 days and lesser arts such as Elephant, Horse and other training in 12 days, etc.

There is also some confusion on who this Ghora Angirasa is in Chandogya and if that is the same person called Neminata in the Jaina traditions.

On the rest of what you have on Krishna - like most other things - we see eye to eye.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Aug 2010 09:48

Pulikeshi ji,

Yes, his first Guru was Sandipani from Ujjain. Second was Ghor Angirasa.. The Jaina accounts say that Ghor Angirasa is same as Neminath and Arishtanemi based on similarities of teachings by Angirasa and Neminath.

I guess, Ghor Angirasa was more of a counsellor for Krishna suffering from Vishad and depression. The description in Chhandogya is Krishna learning the "Brahma-vidya" at the feet of Angirasa. This might be similar to Para-Vidya and Apara-Vidya as described in Ishavasya and cited by me in deracination thread.

My personal understanding is, depressed Krishna was counselled and helped by Angirasa to regain his poise and interest in "politics". I won't say that Krishna would have retired from active politics, but for Ghor Angirasa. But he might have taken longer to get normal and meet Pandavas. Pandavas would have given up all the hope, but for timely reassurance from a confident Krishna (who was made confident by counselling of Angirasa).

Krishna had invested all his dreams, ambitions and aspirations in the DI-Axis. He had worked very hard for regal acceptability of the DI axis. All this was thrown away on game of dice for no fault of his own. This was a huge shock. He fought no battle thereafter (if we discard the story of Aniruddha and Shambarasura which does not form the backbone of MBH and Harivamsha). Without the game of dice, he perhaps would have been able to save his own kin from mutual genocide and total destruction. The DI-axis proved unsustainable (for whatever reasons) and genocide of yadavas at Prabhaas-parva had to follow the Kurukshetra great war. Saraswati Basin was evacuated - Dwarika destroyed and capital shifted from Indraprastha (on banks of Yamuna which was then a tributary of Saraswati) to hastinapur (in Ganges valley).

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 04 Aug 2010 11:39

brihaspati wrote:I have seen the type you describe in remote centres of Terai and foothills of the Himalayas. It is rare on western Rajputana side. It is almost certainly associated with certain Tantric schools I am familiar with. The Lingayats avoid this type of depiction. I am curious now and have sent a query. I will let you know when I "know".

Bji, any updates/feedback on this?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 04 Aug 2010 21:33

X-posting from Strat forum

Atri wrote:I will play devil's advocate, just for the sake of argument..

One of the most important factors, that of drying saraswati is being neglected in above discussion. This is one of the factors which was misread by the think-tanks of DI-Axis. The revelation that Saraswati is drying up comes to Krishna after the Raajsooya Yagna Episode. Without the game of dice, the strategists of DI-axis might have thought a way of shifting eastwards.

Ideology is never static, it spills over once it is given a sufficient incubation time in any one region OR subregion. The fatal mistake of Dwarikadheesh was not putting all eggs in one subregional basket. I guess, his mistake was putting all eggs in that subregional basket which was torn and had a huge hole.

Along with ideology, even polity spills over the shifts the centre of admin. We see this in gupta times when Pataliputra was abandoned as capital in favour of Ujjain for its ease in northwestern conquests (both military and ideological).

I think that the realisation that Saraswati was drying up (and hence DI was compromised) hit Krishna even before the war, it is the "greater" reason why Krishna reveals the truth of Karna's birth to him, since Karna was king of Anga (modern Bengal). Infact the episode where Krishna drives a chariot with both Satyaki and Karna in it to the outskirts of Hastinapura close to the Ganges probably illustrates that Krishna wanted to balance out Satyaki (manifestation of arrogance) with Karna (manifestation of magnanimity). Also, Krishna at this point has a conflict of implementation of dharma with brain or heart.

I also think that Karna's death brings about radical change and world-weariness within Krishna. From then on, he knew for sure that the damage couldnt be undone and it is then that he decides to initiate the self-destruct sequence, which is also probably part of the "greater" reason why Ashwatthaama and Kritavarma were spared (to be able to salvage something from the ruin of eastern and south central India).

BTW, interesting discussion of Krishna picking up moral strength from Ghor Angirasa. It further lends credence to the theory that Krishna is susceptible to emotional ups and downs and realizations.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Aug 2010 21:55

As I said, the first reference of Saraswati drying up at Vinashana in desert is mentioned when arjuna leaves for Tapasya to please shiva and gain pashupatastra from him. This is I guess 3rd year of their exile. War happened 11 years after this incidence. All the references of Saraswati drying up are from Vana-Parwa. This comes as a revelation to Bhishma in his discussion with Pulatsya Rishi. The people from Matsya desha (modern Jaipur and adjoining area) who were allies of Vrishni Yadavas must be knowing this before hand. Pandavas ruled Indraprastha for many years before playing that dice-game. Hence it is quite possible that DI axis knew of this eventuality.

Krishna's attempt to break away Karna are too late and too half-hearted. I guess, winning Karna was not Krishna's agenda. His only agenda was to break karna emotionally. If Karna were to return, there would never have been peace, given the behaviour of Karna in the "Vastra-Harana" episode. Karna was separated from Pandavas in most fundamental aspects.

Krishna initiated the "auto-destruct", as you rightly say, after the game of dice. Perhaps it was this thought of total destruction which led him into depression and Vishaad-yoga. The prospects of this thought were indeed dreary for a perceptive politician like Krishna. Karna was not a factor which convinced Krishna to do so, IMHO. He realized that all was lost and he thought it as his moral duty to bring about controlled destruction of Indian power. While Raama consolidated the Indic power, Krishna destroyed it. There are many reasons and factors for these characters behaving so.

I would write an article shortly on the geopolity in Ramayana for a reference and comparison. While Ramayana lacks the complexity of MBH, it is politically complex in far subtle manner. MBH is obviously complex. And most importantly, Ramayana deals with politics of Deccan and South. These centres were preserved and in turn, these centres preserved Indian-ness in subsequent millennia.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 04 Aug 2010 21:59

sorry for interrupting, but what is DI-axis? seems important to the understanding of the discussion here.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 04 Aug 2010 22:06

The Political axis between the cities of Dwarika-Indraprastha. Please read the posts on last page wherein I have attempted to jot down the geopolity of india prior to the game of Dice.

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 02#p911202

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 04 Aug 2010 22:33

thank you Atri ji, that was a truly enlightening writeup.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 04 Aug 2010 22:48

Every Black Hole Contains Another Universe?

Like part of a cosmic Russian doll, our universe may be nested inside a black hole that is itself part of a larger universe.

In turn, all the black holes found so far in our universe—from the microscopic to the supermassive—may be doorways into alternate realities.

According to a mind-bending new theory, a black hole is actually a tunnel between universes—a type of wormhole. The matter the black hole attracts doesn't collapse into a single point, as has been predicted, but rather gushes out a "white hole" at the other end of the black one, the theory goes.

In a recent paper published in the journal Physics Letters B, Indiana University physicist Nikodem Poplawski presents new mathematical models of the spiraling motion of matter falling into a black hole. His equations suggest such wormholes are viable alternatives to the "space-time singularities" that Albert Einstein predicted to be at the centers of black holes.

According to Einstein's equations for general relativity, singularities are created whenever matter in a given region gets too dense, as would happen at the ultradense heart of a black hole.

Einstein's theory suggests singularities take up no space, are infinitely dense, and are infinitely hot—a concept supported by numerous lines of indirect evidence but still so outlandish that many scientists find it hard to accept.

If Poplawski is correct, they may no longer have to.

According to the new equations, the matter black holes absorb and seemingly destroy is actually expelled and becomes the building blocks for galaxies, stars, and planets in another reality.

Compare this with some SD darshanas and Rigveda mantras

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Aug 2010 00:00

Atri wrote:The great game of competing political interests for supremacy of Sapta-Sindhu region

The axis of power from Dwarika to Indraprastha was forming as an "Anti-Kuru" lobby and alternative to Magadh Lobby. The "confused" Panchalas had by then decisively shifted in camp of Dwarika-Indraprastha axis permanently owing to marital relations between Pandavas and Draupadi. While Pandavas did not have any animosity towards Magadh, it was crucial for Vrishnis to settle the "problem of Magadh" once and for all. Magadh's sphere of influence had already reached Avanti (Ujjain) where the Yadava kings (Vinda and Anuvinda) were staunch allies of Jarasandha. Jarasandha was stealthily encircling Kurus, while they were busy infighting and partitioning their land. This ring of encirclement had potential of breaking off Dwarika from rest of India. Hence the urgency to finish off Magadha's influence was pressing as far as priorities of Vrishnis are concerned. Krishna had managed to establish marital relations with several yadava kings which were under Jarasandha's influence. He started with Rukmini (the princes of Vidarbha). He also married princess of Ujjain and few others. He also took wives from Vrishni clan as well to cement his position in clan and garner support from his clan members. Yet, the noose of Magadh was tightening around Kuru, Indraprastha and Dwarika.

While Pandavas were still part of Kuru dynasty, Duryodhana had given kingdom of Anga (northern Bengal) to Karna. While Pandavas were in their first exile (after Varnavat-Laakshagriha episode), there was one very important event which is usually downplayed. In Kalinga (Orissa), Karna defeated Jarasandha in duel. This had increased the prestige and influence as well as power-projection ability of Kurus in eastern India. Karna's devotion to Kurus is legendary. Karna's influence in Bengal and over Magadh directly corresponded to Kuru influence in Eastern India.

Thus, while Kurus were rather strong and playing their own moves to encircle Magadh, there was no such strategy in think-tank of Dwarika-Indraprastha axis (DI axis) which could tackle with these two great games. It is from here, that character of Krishna starts raising above rest of people, just like Michael Corleone in Godfather-1 (sorry for this metaphor, but Michael Corleone is the closest comparison of the master game that Krishna played). The scale and intricacy of Krishna's game is million times more than the one played by Michael in Godfather Saga. But it comes very close in principle. I would urge gentle readers to remember the strategy of Michael Corleone to kill off the heads of 5 mafia families in NY in one fell swoop and then subsequent moves to consolidate the space in the power-vacuum.

Great summary Atri-ji. It would be great if we can put together all our minds in developing a multi-media educational program on this. It would be a worthwhile project. Something to ponder about...

So In Bharata Varsha

GreatGame V1.0 = Mahabharata
V2.0 = Nanda-Maurya/Chanakya episode
V3.0 = Islamic invasions
V4.0 = British colonization
V5.0 = Independence and partition
V6.0 = Current dynastic Vs nationalistic

Were the external aggressions more of triggering-events/catalysts

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 05 Aug 2010 00:24

There are few other great games too, RamaY ji.

The games between Deccan powers of Krishna-Godavari basin periodically entering the politics of Indo-Gangetic plains when magadh was down. Magadh was usually down because of its exhaustive fight with foreign aggressor (usually, not always).

Saatvahanas and Shakas
Chalukyas and magadha (Pulikeshi and Harsha)
Rashtrakutas and Arabs-Pratiharas-Palas.
Marathas and Mughals-Pathans.

Dwarika may also be placed into this category, although it was a "planted" polity not an evolved and emergent polity.

Then we have Kalinga-Bactrian Greek-Sungas.
Kushans and Guptas.
Huns and Guptas (initially under Skandagupta)
Huns and Later Gupta confederacy (Yashodharman)

I have something similar in my mind I was thinking in terms of youtube videos and later real-time documentaries when funding is available. interactive multimedia programmes will be a fantastic idea to begin with..

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2010 01:27

Klaus wrote:
brihaspati wrote:I have seen the type you describe in remote centres of Terai and foothills of the Himalayas. It is rare on western Rajputana side. It is almost certainly associated with certain Tantric schools I am familiar with. The Lingayats avoid this type of depiction. I am curious now and have sent a query. I will let you know when I "know".
Bji, any updates/feedback on this?

Not yet! I will definitely write about what I get to know.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2010 01:31

ManjaM wrote:can tantra be practiced without any guru guidance?

not entirely impossible. The brain is a strange interface to different types of reality. The forms of shakti etc are human graspable representations of formations within those different realities. Quest through meditation and inward exploration can give a lot of information.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Aug 2010 03:51

Atri,

As always a pleasure to read your thoughts...

Have a subtle difference in my take -
Krishna, the historical person, was as opportunistic as the next Kshatriya.
What he did foresee was the depletion of resources to the west due to Saraswathi.
Hence, he saw a D-I axis as a stable affront to the traditional west-east alignment.

What I still do not understand is why the D-I axis has never worked...
but there are some thoughts... river plain systems have lower natural entropy...

The security of Jambu Dvipa can be assured, if and only if, the plains of Saraswathi are under the control of the Ganga.

The problem today is that the resources of the Ganga plains (including Deccan/South) will not
be enough to effectively instrument a recovery in the Saraswathi plains.
Looking at this problem as a Islam vs. Hindu, Democracy vs. Dictatorship, etc. only makes it worse.
Outside powers need to realize that the best way for them to get what they want
in the region is to support a strong India that has control over loose knit economic
federation to the West (even East).

What is needed is a carrot to keep the Saraswathi plain subservient to the Ganga plain.
What is needed is a stick to keep the Saraswathi plain in fear of the Ganga plain.
What is needed is a loose conglomeration of states to the West, that are in Indian orbit.

naren · Post by **naren** » 05 Aug 2010 06:37

RamaY wrote: V6.0 = Current dynastic Vs nationalistic

ye all are going to jail for treason

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 05 Aug 2010 12:14

V2.0 = Nanda-Maurya/Chanakya episode
V3.0 = Islamic invasions

Pl incorporate Version 2.5 Gupta Age, Reunification of Bharat, Huns Defeated by Skandgupt

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 05 Aug 2010 20:02

Pulikeshi wrote: The security of Jambu Dvipa can be assured, if and only if, the plains of Saraswathi are under the control of the Ganga.

Pulikeshi garu,

The foundations of Jambudwipa are in Dharma. For Ganga-clans to gain upper hand over DI-axis, they have to turn Dharmic first. Once they do that, the following will come automatically as they will have Ganga on their side

What is needed is a carrot to keep the Saraswathi plain subservient to the Ganga plain.
What is needed is a stick to keep the Saraswathi plain in fear of the Ganga plain.
What is needed is a loose conglomeration of states to the West, that are in Indian orbit

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 05 Aug 2010 22:43

RamaY,

Not sure I understand your point on Ganga-clans being Adharmic.
Not sure I understand your point on Ganga-clans gaining the upper hand over D-I axis.
You may be extrapolating current political leanings, which I scarce understand, but I am not...

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 05 Aug 2010 23:33

Then there is the added complication that periodically the D-I waste and remnants flow in huge volumes into the MK (Magadha-Kekaya) axis region or Ganga wash region. which means for a time the Ganga behave like the worst case version of the D-I axis. Those pushed out of the original Ganga kula, spread around in a clockwise circle through the south and centre and recharges the D-I.

Early phase of D-I resurgence is a charging by the cornered and pushed out Ganga [ Krishna pushed out from Gangetic heartland, and MKG sponsored by among others, chiefly WCB]. Their personal experiences about the transferred dregs of D-I to Ganga makes them think that it is the Ganga which is at fault and therefore they collaborate to destroy the "current" Ganga. This leaves the D-I successors with no tangible opposition and contestants for power - which always reduces to dynastic thinking and corruption and regionalism.

So there goes the cycle.

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 06 Aug 2010 09:46

^^^ Added to that, the propensity of the Ganga-Magadha region to absorb and assimilate periodic foreign (and usually hostile) forces further exacerbates any impact against M-K or D-I axis. IS there any element which has retained its original intent or purpose without being diluted by the dynamics of M-K/D-I axes and hence can actually prove to be a catalyst for elimination of dynastic memes/sub-regionalism? Even Nepal (formerly part of the Magadha empire) has been through dynasty and petty regionalism.

Leapfrog/disruptive technologies, river interlinking projects changing the way of life from a primarily agrarian/irrigation based system to a information/renewable economy might be the only solution.

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 06 Aug 2010 20:09

Klaus wrote:^^^ Added to that, the propensity of the Ganga-Magadha region to absorb and assimilate periodic foreign (and usually hostile) forces further exacerbates any impact against M-K or D-I axis. IS there any element which has retained its original intent or purpose without being diluted by the dynamics of M-K/D-I axes and hence can actually prove to be a catalyst for elimination of dynastic memes/sub-regionalism? Even Nepal (formerly part of the Magadha empire) has been through dynasty and petty regionalism.

I am not too sure in what context the word "propensity" is being used. The most recent invasions were through the seas - Portuguese, Dutch, French and British. Their entry points seem to be multiple and that does not include just the Gangetic plains. And if one looks at the "militant movements against the most recent aggressors, a HUGE component came from the Gangetic delta region, along with Punjab and Maharashtra. Of course, they were checkmated by a coterie of courtiers but that does not make the contributions of those sons of the soils , who died for a just cause, any less.

The propensity has a geographical element in it -the long regions through which invaders have ALWAYS slipped in. The borders had been breached right from the times of the Greeks and convulsions continued with every cycle of two to three centuries. The entire scenario changed after that - just like today's globalization.

Certainly, by looking at the current crop of dynastic leaders, the urge to ascribe propensity and tendency may seem to be logical and justified. But extrapolating that to all times in history is a gross over simplification. The issues are very complex especially with India, where the memory of civilization is very very long. We still do not know what lies ahead of us due to globalization. Maybe future generations will ascribe a different propensity that may not be acceptable to us (only if we could see into the future).

Leapfrog/disruptive technologies, river interlinking projects changing the way of life from a primarily agrarian/irrigation based system to a information/renewable economy might be the only solution.

The agrarian part needs to be preserved anywhere in India - ultimately it is a war for land and extractoin of "material" and "human" resources, at least the invasive ideologies are very clear about that.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 06 Aug 2010 22:01

^I agree with trying to extrapolate and propensity to fit model on scant data....

These are the facts:

1. Jambhu Dvipa is exposed to the oceans and to its Western flank. The Himalaya prevent
entry of "external" forces for the most part.

2. The west had a very large fertile plain that is slowly becoming a barren desert.

3. The Ganga and Deccan is rich in resources - this means vectors of invasion have
always been from west to east.

4. Only the Europeans came via the Ocean - that was due to a revolution in technologies.

5. This age, the incoming is from the Air and via Fiber Optics.

What our mythology indicates is that the fight to keep Dharma alive is an ongoing one.
The stories may have some historic basis, which could provide us clues for what happened
in each age, especially the one it was set in. There is danger in extrapolating that into an
ongoing phenomenon or some sort of cycle.

Here is what we can use mythologies to understand better:

1. Understanding of the geo-politics of that time to see where the alignments were
what worked and what did not...

2. How did the West-East axis fail in preventing invasions? Has the D-I axis ever worked? If not why not?

3. How did Buddist thought travel East-West more than it traveled to the South. Then there is Sri Lanka, etc.

4. How the trade caravans play a role in being instruments of change, much like the
control of the sea routes? How did the Dharmics cede both to outsiders?

5. Only the core of the Dharmic civilization remains and that too in tatters?
Quo Vadis Dharmics?

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 06 Aug 2010 23:00

Abhi_G wrote:
I am not too sure in what context the word "propensity" is being used. The most recent invasions were through the seas - Portuguese, Dutch, French and British. Their entry points seem to be multiple and that does not include just the Gangetic plains.

While talking of the Magadha region or Ganga wash region, the entire area of central, south central and eastern India is included (right upto the Krishna-Godavari). Agreed on the multiple-entry points thing. Perhaps, only Kerala and Tamil Nadu have remained politically unaffected by the dynamics of D-I and Magadha, even this is only a half-truth as there have been ripple effects.

The propensity has a geographical element in it -the long regions through which invaders have ALWAYS slipped in. The borders had been breached right from the times of the Greeks and convulsions continued with every cycle of two to three centuries. The entire scenario changed after that - just like today's globalization.

RE the bolded part, the dynamics of DI and Magadha just became a whole lot more subtler at best and openly camouflaged at the worst. Eg. Marathas/Aurangzeb and Nawab of Oudh chapters respectively.

Certainly, by looking at the current crop of dynastic leaders, the urge to ascribe propensity and tendency may seem to be logical and justified. But extrapolating that to all times in history is a gross over simplification. The issues are very complex especially with India, where the memory of civilization is very very long.

Please do not let the memory of a lengthy civilization misle you into thinking that an extrapolation or over simplification is being carried out. The dynamics of D-I and Magadha are slow at pace but have surely been happening and continues to this day.

Maybe future generations will ascribe a different propensity that may not be acceptable to us (only if we could see into the future).

Would you be kind enough to explain in greater detail for all our benefit. Thanks.

The agrarian part needs to be preserved anywhere in India - ultimately it is a war for land and extractoin of "material" and "human" resources, at least the invasive ideologies are very clear about that.

I never implied that agriculture or farming will completely vanish in an information/renewable economy but this is material for a different thread.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Aug 2010 03:48

I had projected that agriculture and food production will remain important for a long long time. In many posts also I think I have tried to point out that the extent of an empire or state will depend on the speed of communication and transport of people. This is why the globalization tendencies of super-nations are going on.

Here are the multiple concurrent factors that affect our model :

(1) as long as food production is important with sunlight, soil, warmer temp, and consistent rains and water supply as the driving factors, and no major changes in climate or geo-topology of the subcontinent, the Ganges system and the Valley will remain the largest supporter of population concentration

(2) the basic resources have the greatest flow and volume through the Ganges valley from east to west or vice versa

(3) Himalayas and the central Indian ranges and highlands force this flow into the valley channel and the north will remain a barrier for large scale invasions for a long time to come

These three factors taken together imply the following that subject to communication speed and transportation capacities,

(a) the higher throughput of trade, services and resources through the valley east-west travels mainly along an economic arc that connects the associated sapta-sindhu opening in a wide arc with one mouth being the Ganges delta, and the other mouth being Gujarat/coastal Mh.

(b) whoever can control the two ends controls the flow. Subverting or restricting one end in favour of the other makes the flow unidirectional - transfer of net value from the restricted zone to the freer zone. Thus suppressing Banga would be necessary to increase accumulation in Saurashtra. This is what is meant by Dwarka-Magadha competition - take that as a general geo-historical meme and not exact locations.

(c) whoever controls Multan can take a cut from this flow by nuisance value or direct loot by threatening to disrupt this flow from the north-west. Take the origin-hypo of Uttar-Kuru as north-west origin of the Kurus as the real context of the D-I-M dynamic.

The sea is a highway, and for a long time to come will not become sustainable production centres supporting large populations.

The D-I-M meme works to a lesser extent along the southern coastal peripheral flow.

Choke points on these flows are centres of regional powers because they act as mini-I-Multani structures, surviving by taking cuts on the flow. Compare Dwarka, Magadha [which is a local centre favoured by the highland knot around Santhal Parganas as pointed out in another post] as choke points, Delhi as another choke point for Multani-I meme. Compare God's own country as a similar choke point on the southern flow - goes for SL too.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2010 04:56

Atri, Brihaspati, Pullikeshi, Klaus, thanks for bringing the epics live and showing their relation to the current world of India. The last post ties the past, present and thus the future.

BTW, was off to Central America on vacation. Found these links on

Nava Durgas

and

64 Yoginis/Dakinis

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 07 Aug 2010 07:57

It would be awesome to create a video OR a series of maps and upload it on youtube.. we need to do something about this knowledge which is being generated here.. I am trying to create a series of articles and currently working on one to show these memes and how they affect India.. (as implied in B-ji's last post).

This meme of DIM arc has worked many times for the benefit of Indics as well (like Guptas and Mauryas and to certain extent Mughals).That history is imortant.. Every Indian should know about conquests of all the three chandraguptas, bindusara, ashok, samudragupta and kumargupta. every Indian should know about the last stand of Skandagupta in Kyber agency against invading Huns..

One of the most interesting point is by Pulikeshi regarding the invasions via air and fibre-optic cables as the route of future invasions. Since most of the cables enter India from Sindhu-saagar, this can be seen as modern extension of the DI axis. All these efforts are the entrenchments..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Aug 2010 08:17

Isnt the NDA rise to power due to a modern version of DIM axis? Gujarat, UP and Bihar. And losing UP has broken the axis?

BW can you comment on role of Kalinga? H C Ray Chaudhari says that it was crucial for survival of the Ganga based empires that it is on thier side. Same with the Deccan based empires.