Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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BijuShet
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by BijuShet »

James B wrote:...
Didn't knew IK Gujral said this.

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?266465
From Rediff in 1997 : Britain is third-rate power says PM
''Britain is a third-rate power nursing illusions of grandeur of its colonial past. It created Kashmir when it divided India. Now it wants to give us a solution.''

That is Prime Minister Inder Kumar Gujral, hours before Queen Elizabeth began her state visit to India on Sunday.

Gujral reportedly made the vitriolic attack during his conversation with Egyptian intellectuals in Cairo on Saturday evening. The prime minister was asked why India was unable to resolve the Kashmir crisis, and why New Delhi was against a third country's mediation.

Explaining the situation in Kashmir, Gujral recounted how democratic governance could be restored in the state despite massive infiltration of militants from across the border. The intellectuals were shocked about the presence of non-Kashmiri militants in the valley, who underwent training abroad.

Gujral returned to Delhi on Sunday morning, when senior officials disclosed what prompted the prime minister into such an undiplomatic diatribe.

The premier was upset with British ministers and officials's uncalled for remarks on Kashmir, they said, adding, ''Even the queen was dragged into this, and she said that she was ready to use her good offices to help resolve divergent positions. The prime minister was exasperated.''

Reports said New Delhi is furious with the tone of some speeches at the Labour Party's recent annual conference. ''We ignored the earlier statements of (British Deputy Foreign Secretary) Derek Fatchett, believing him to be new to the job,'' said a senior official. ''But he has gone and repeated them at the conference. Then, (British Foreign Secretary) Robin Cook goes and again offers meditation, when he knows our position on the subject. How long are we expected to take all this lying down? In effect, the Labour Party leaders are helping Pakistan which wants to internationalise the Kashmir issue in violation of the Shimla agreement. This is totally unacceptable.''

Rubbing salt on New Delhi's wounds were the British high commissioner's views in New Delhi. He dismissed the demands of some Indian leaders for an apology for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre as ''preposterous''.

''Where was the need for such insulting outbursts when India did not officially seek an apology?'' said the source.

At Monday's meeting between Gujral and Cook, however, the two leaders avoided discussing the Kashmir issue.

Cook reportedly conveyed to Gujral his country's support for India's membership of the Asea-Europe meeting.

Briefing the media on the meeting, an external affairs ministry spokesman said Britain's support was important and ''we are appreciative of that''.

Expressing support for the United Nations Security Council expansion, the British foreign secretary said it should ''reflect the world as it is now and not as it was in 1945.''

Meanwhile, President K R Narayanan said India, as one of the world's largest markets and as an emerging economic power, was a suitable and reliable partner for Britain.

Speaking at a banquet hosted by him in the queen's honour on Monday, Narayanan said, ''What gives Indo-British relations inherent vitality and larger significance are the values of freedom, democracy, secularism and social justice that we share.''

Earlier, the queen was given a ceremonial welcome at Rashtrapati Bhavan. The queen, accompanied by the duke of Edinburgh, arrived in New Delhi on Sunday night to a red carpet welcome.

In another development, a procession was taken out in Amristsar against the Queen's visit to Amritsar, which begins on Tuesday. Small groups of Naxalites also held demonstrations in various localities of the city. Another demonstration is planned for Tuesday.
The Article has more links at the bottom to news around that time regarding India and UK.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by rsingh »

IIRC queen was stoped from giving a speech in India thereafter.........................one babu reminded that Indians are not her subjects :((
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^ James, there's more about that visit that isn;t known widely.

Thx to Mihir Bose for bringing the truth out in 1 of his columns.

Apparently queen madam was supposed to address a joint session of desi parliament. But the day before, she and her husband fillip were on a visit to some museum in dilli that had an exhibit on the jallianwala bagh massacre. Then the gr8 Ahole archduke or some such pompass titled sri philip had the sublime grace to dispute the number of dead in jallianwala and some dismissive remarks along the lines of 'it wasn't that bad'. A quiet diplo row ensued that resulted in the cancellation of the queenie address to sansad.
....
From Rediff article dated Oct 15, 1997 Prince Philip kicks up another storm
The British royal couple's visit to Jallianwala Bagh stirred another storm with Prince Philip's controversial statements on Tuesday.

Walking by the ''Flame of Liberty'', a memorial to unarmed men, women and children who succumbed to General Reginald Dyer's tyranny on April 1, 1919, Prince Philip reportedly said the Jallianwala Bagh tragedy was ''vastly exaggerated''.

Ignoring the feelings of shock and dismay writ large on the faces of Indians officials and dignitaries accompanying him, the pince dropped another bombshell by saying that he had virtually obtained the ''facts'' from the horse's mouth. No, not General Dyer himself who was unrepentent about the tragedy. But his son who was the prince's colleague in the Canadian army.

What was even more shocking was the royal couple's attitude. Ignoring repeated requests that the British should express regret -- if not apology -- for the massacre, Queen Elizabeth II maintained stoic silence. In the visitors's book at the memorial, she merely wrote, ''Elizabeth R October 14, 1997.''

Did the more ''vocal'' prince make up for his wife's shortcomings? Refusing to make any comments, he said, ''I would follow her footsteps having lived with her for 50 years.''

The royal couple, according to reports, also ensured that no gestures would be made that would show their ''remorse'' for the massacre. That is putting it rather mildly.

Reports said that the couple showed their ''arrogance'' even at the Golden Temple, where they refused to eat the prasad offered in the sanctum sanctorum. Equally shocking was their conduct while receiving mementoes from Punjab Chief Minister Parkash Singh Badal and Shiromani Gurdwara Parbhandak Committee chief Gurcharan Singh Tohra. The couple remained seated even as the Indian dignitaries stood up to hand over an exquite model of the shrine to the queen and a gold-plated sword to the prince.

As tales of the couple's ''disgusting behaviour'' spread, the police had a tough time controlling the protestors who have been demanding an official apology for the massacre.

The police had to cane a crowd of Communist Party of India-Marxist-Leninst activists at Lawrence Road in Amritsar. ''Queen go back,'' the crowd, displaying black flags, screamed.

The police took several protestors, including those belonging to the Association for Democratic Rights led by Shaheed Bhagat Singh's nephew, Professor Jagmohan Singh, into custody.

Expressing shock that ''we have learned no lessons from history'', Professor Singh said, ''It is sad that democratic protests can be suppressed at the very place which is so central to our struggle for freedom.''

Several others were shocked that the couple had raked up another controversy hours after the queen bought peace by terming the massacre a ''distressing example'' of the ''difficult episodes in our past''. The remarks prompted the Jallianwala Bagh Shaeed Parivar Samitee to withdraw their agitation at the memorial. According to Samitee chief Bushan Behl, this is ''nothing short of atoning for the wrongs done by the British in India''.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by BijuShet »

Another Rediff article on the cancellation of the queen's banquet speech dated Oct 15, 1997.
India denies it cancelled Queen's banquet speech
India expressed surprise at British media reports that New Delhi had cancelled a banquet speech by Queen Elizabeth II in Madras.

Addressing the media on Wednesday, an external affairs ministry spokesman said that, under Indian protocol, only one banquet speech was scheduled by a visiting head of State. This is normally given at the banquet hosted by the President of India. ''No other banquet speech by the distinguished visitor is scheduled either in Delhi or at any other state capital,'' the spokesman said.

Before the queen's arrival, there was no suggestion from British officials that another banquet speech be included in her programme.

Hence, the question of cancelling a banquet speech that had never been included in the official programme at any stage just did not arise, he said.

Official sources said the British media had been suggesting that India had bungled the queen's visit by cancelling the banquet speech in Madras at the last minute.

The sources said a British official informally asked his Indian counterparts on October 12, when the queen arrived in India, whether a banquet speech could be delivered in Madras. He was told that no such thing was planned.

The sources said the British officials had stated that the queen had, during her visit to India in 1961, delivered a speech at a banquet hosted by a state governor. Reacting to this, the Indian side pointed out that protocol had undergone a change in the last 36 years.

The sources added, ''It seems that British officials handling the queen's visit have been putting pressure on the governor's office to include the banquet speech by breaking the protocol.''

Asked who could be held responsible for creating this faux pas, the sources said, ''Obviously, the deputy high commissioner of Britain in Madras.''

UNI
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by vrbarreto »

Prasant wrote:For good measure, she also mentions that she loves India. :roll:

She loves India in the same way that a pedophile loves children. British pakistanis are not much more than 5th columnists ready to suicide bomb tube trains as soon as they don't get what they want.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Sorry for OT, But Ahmad in Jacket has his own idea ...
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0 ... ?ref=world
Look at this country of England — a small island in West Africa. These people made weapons and ships; they attacked people; they subjugated India, whose area is 10 times the size of England, whose populations is tens of times larger!
While Mr. Ahmadinejad seemed to be suggesting that England is a puny nation of war mongers driven, perhaps, by a sense of inferiority over the small size of their country to lash out at larger nations, no one, as yet, has come up with a good explanation for his description of it as an African island
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

The Talibanisation of British childhood by hardline parents
Last November, on the steps of Tate Britain, I witnessed a scene that troubles me still.

A furious Asian father was shaking his young son and tearing up the picture his child had drawn.

The boy kicked and cried. Recognising my face from TV appearances I had made as a commentator on current affairs, the father came across to say 'hello'.

So I asked him what his child had done that had made him so angry. He explained that according to his Islamic mentors, drawing pictures of people was forbidden.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by krisna »

Haresh wrote:Stop saying sorry for our history: For too long our leaders have been crippled by a post-imperial cringe

As always it is the comments, that show the hatred and contempt.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... ringe.html
Reply to the article in his blog.
http://www.sandeepweb.com/2010/08/04/ah ... perialism/
Mr. Sandbrook’s yearning for some vintage imperialist ass-kicking of the bloody natives drips throughout the piece from the word go. From lapsing into lamenting raptures over the forever-lost glories that George V enjoyed right up to being thrilled by the arch-imperialist Churchill, he rightly sheds those tears of pride.

The dreaded “patriotism is the last resort of a scoundrel” was coined perhaps to represent writers like Mr. Sandbrook his article shows and as we shall see. His “patriotism” and his rousing call for present-day Brits to keep alive the memories of those kickass days entails these:

* Painting Britain in nothing but the most hallowed hues
* Sweeping glaring atrocities under the carpet as you know, this happens. A few badly-behaved boys, etc.
* Blurring the lines between fairytale and history
* Indulging in the “who threw the most number of stones at the peaceful neighbour’s apple tree?” game.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Mauli »

Churchill 'banned UFO report to avoid mass panic'


Reports given to Churchill claimed that a reconnaissance aircraft returning to Britain from a mission was shadowed by a UFO as it crossed the British coast.

The plane's crew were reported to have photographed the object, which they said had "hovered noiselessly" near the aircraft, before moving off.

According to the letter describing this alleged incident: "Mr Churchill is reported to have made a declaration to the effect, 'This event should be immediately classified since it would create mass panic among the general population and destroy one's belief in the Church.'"

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/100805/w ... fo_offbeat
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Putting Britain on the auction block
It was with some alarm that I read this week that the total value of the UK has fallen by £94bn. It wasn’t the fact that the nation’s assets are now worth a paltry £6,670bn that bothered me. It was the notion that we might be on the market.After all, there’s not much point in getting the place valued if you are not prepared to sell. Surely in these straitened times a government body would not engage in such otherwise pointless activity
Perhaps I’m worrying unduly. After all £6,670bn seems at first glance a toppy valuation given that the leveraged finance market is not what it was. It is not as if Britain is even west-facing. On the other hand with an annual income of £1,500bn and assets which could surely be more heavily sweated, it might be a good deal. Of course the new owner would want to secure some productivity gains. He might look to free up some of the property portfolio by merging families.
There is also a risk – especially if the UK is bought by a private equity consortium – that the country could be sold on every few years, a practice known in the industry as flipping. Under this scenario, the owners would buy Britain, leverage it up, take a huge dividend and sell it to another private equity house.
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/48c38e8a-9fff ... abdc0.html
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rudradev »

Prem wrote:Sorry for OT, But Ahmad in Jacket has his own idea ...
http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/0 ... ?ref=world
Look at this country of England — a small island in West Africa.
I like it. I really have never understood why "Europe" is considered a "continent" in its own right. It is really just a subcontinent in Northwest Asia at best. Though "West/North Africa" is probably even more injurious to the H&D of Britainistan, which considers itself to be aloof even from "Europe." :mrgreen:
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Gerard »

RAF to shrink to World War One levels
In the most significant changes to Britain’s defences since the post-Suez review of 1957, ministers and officials plan to scrap large parts of the Armed Forces.
If implemented, the cuts will mean that Britain will almost certainly depart the world stage as a major military power and become what military chiefs call a “medium-scale player”.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ that means they are keeping trident
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

David Cameron's visit in India last month revealed the vast gulf between how we now view India and Pakistan. We are happy with India's growing power and independence, not least in the hope it will counterbalance the far more frightening Chinese as the global eclipse of Europe accelerates. Yet for Pakistan, a decades-old policy continues. We ignore the increasingly powerful cultural and political influence of an increasingly conservative Middle East in the country. We hope our favoured English-speaking moderates, such as the Bhutto clan, can somehow fashion a new ally and partner out of this troublesome nation.

Yet what Benazir Bhutto had recognised a few days before her death was not just that Pakistan had changed but that the time for changing Pakistan had passed too. And this is the unpleasant new reality that Britain and America need to get used to. Pakistan's identity issues are steadily being resolved. But not how we would like them to be.



The dawn of bodhi.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... an-changes
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

sanjaykumar wrote:
Yet what Benazir Bhutto had recognised a few days before her death was not just that Pakistan had changed but that the time for changing Pakistan had passed too. And this is the unpleasant new reality that Britain and America need to get used to. Pakistan's identity issues are steadily being resolved. But not how we would like them to be.
The question is did they really want to change Pakistan inside out.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Prem »

Obama calls up Cameron, discusses India visit
http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/aug/ ... -visit.htm

David Cameron's [ Images ] recent India [ Images ] visit, his discussions with Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari [ Images ] and situation in the Af-Pak region figured prominently during a telephonic conversation US President Barack Obama [ Images ] had with the British Prime Minister on Friday.
Obama spoke to Cameron, hours after the British Premier hosted Pakistan President Asif Ali Zardari in London
[ Images ], during which the two leaders sought to bury a diplomatic row between the two countries."The prime minister updated the President on his recent visit to India and Turkey," the White House said in a statement after the telephonic conversation between the two leaders.Cameron had last week visited India for bilateral talks with his counterpart Manmohan Singh [ Images ].Speaking at a public interaction in Bangalore, Cameron has asked Pakistan to stop "export of terror" to India and Afghanistan.The comments triggered a diplomatic row between the two countries. While Pakistan summoned the British High Commissioner to convey its sentiments over the comments, Cameron's office made it clear that he will not go back on his comments.Obama and Cameron also discussed the current situation in Afghanistan and Pakistan and today's meeting between Cameron and Zardari."The leaders discussed Afghanistan and Pakistan, with the Prime Minister noting his recent constructive meeting with Pakistani President Zardari," the statement said.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Mauli »

Special investigation: How predatory gangs force middle-class girls into the sex trade
At 13, Emma still played with dolls and loved nothing more than walking with her pet spaniel, Mollie, through the fields next to her home on the outskirts of Leeds. Her blonde hair was cut in a little girl’s bob and she had never kissed a boy.
The highlight of her week was Saturday, when she would meet friends at the local shopping centre while her middle-class parents, Jack and Carol, went to Tesco.Yet by her 14th birthday, that innocent childhood was over.Emma had been raped and sexually abused in the most grotesque manner by 54 men from all over Britain.

Image
Image

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... trade.html
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ that means they are keeping trident
that was always a given, since it is considered a pass to sit at the high table. only question was whether it was funded from the MOD budget squeezing conventional military spending or from outside it.
there's a long discussion on this at
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showth ... p?t=102166
pages 3 and 4 also have an exchange on the ubiquitous 'aid to India' argument.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by D Roy »

Just this OT,

The word "Aid" is itself a misnomer in economics. It essentially represents a line of credit extended to buy specific mandated products from the supplier. its not a grant nor does it have any flexibility. it is just a nice way of stimulating domestic demand whilst trying to leverage influence over another nation-sate and that is where "aid tying" comes in. but that is another story.

So either way its nothing. And the quantum "given" to India is mostly for U.N/G8 commitments. A sort of like rush to meet a certain quota kind of thing. which is why the singularly low number.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

From the India-US Strategic News and Discussion Thread post
Rudradev wrote:Pakistan has nothing to offer any trading bloc by its presence, so we may not have to try very hard to exclude it! In fact, that is why Cameron may have been so outspoken against Pakistani terrorism while visiting India. He sees an emerging UK-India relationship as key to establishing a new alliance that refurbishes Britain's international influence independent of both Washington and the EU. It is interesting that he kept using the term "special relationship with India"... it is as if Cameron wants to replace the erstwhile special relationship between Washington and London, with another one that features London playing Washington's role and New Delhi playing London's role!
It may be the intent of Britain to assume that role, however I think the economic power may be shifting far too much in India's way for anything like that to have any chance.

I think, there is much potential in giving a fillip to the idea of Commonwealth. Without any supporting framework, it is an open competition between India and China in the world markets for resources and minerals, which may not often go India's way considering that the Chinese economy is 3 to 4 times bigger than India's, and allows them to muscle in. Another trading block, where preference would be given to India, rather than China, can even the odds in India's favor.

A Commonwealth FTA would in fact go a long way in ensuring that India gets favorable terms in countries from Canada, Australia, English-speaking Africa, etc, places rich in minerals.

However a Commonwealth without Britain in the middle is a non-starter. Britain is the connecting link between the ex-colonies of the erstwhile British Empire.

India should consider a policy where India assumes British role of the British Raj fame, whereas Britain assumes the role of Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar, a titular figure.

Secondly in order to bring about this new arrangement, India should use Britain's shoulder to shoot. The British, and their other white colonies (Canada, Australia, New Zealand) still have something that other people in the Commonwealth countries covet - the economic opportunities, the immigration opportunities. Britain on the other hand, needs more skilled workers, who can re-energize their moribund economy. They need fresh blood, fresh ideas. New skilled immigrants could provide that. They simply have to be far more discriminatory in deciding whom they allow in. Of course, some countries of the Commonwealth would be willing to give market concessions to British companies as well. In any case, in order to resuscitate the Commonwealth, easier visa policies would be a must!

India needs to expand its economic horizon, and if the Commonwealth provides this opportunity, why not? I do think, David Cameron is willing to go on a new journey, keeping some distance from both EU and USA. India is still the jewel in British crown treasury and gives them the most hope!

Thirdly Britain can function as India's aircraft carrier parked just on the coast of EU, the biggest single market in the world.

If Britain was looking for what it could offer India in exchange for a 'special relationship', then there may be some ideas floating around.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rudradev »

Some really good ideas there, Rajesh A-ji. I would agree, with the caveat that India should also balance out a "special relationship with UK" by maintaining strong trade ties with the EU and the US, independently of any Commonwealth FTA that might arise.

The EU trade relationship is primed to get a quantum boost with the MRCA deal destined for either Eurofighter or Dassault Rafale. Even before that we have been giving the French a lot of military deals... Scorpene etc. In fact the Hawk deal with the Brits is sort of a consolation prize by comparison, to show we are still interested in military purchases from the UK even as France gets the plum contracts.

Meanwhile the big-ticket deals with the US are foundering. American insistence on the Nuclear Liability Bill has meant that Russia and France are ahead of the US in terms of getting reactor-building contracts in India. American insistence on the End-User Monitoring Agreement certainly created a quantum of distrust that I am sure, led to the F-18/F-16 disappearing from our MRCA shortlist. Hopefully we are working to convince the American Hamiltonians that this is the fault of the Clinton-Wilsonians (who are the ones trying to tie our hands with end-user agreements)... and meanwhile the EU was willing to sell us aircraft with no strings attached.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by sanjaykumar »

Thirdly Britain can function as India's aircraft carrier parked just on the coast of EU, the biggest single market in the world.


Truth be told, India will have come of age when a naval/hydrographic survey is launched to the Arctic.


Until then India is a regional power.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

(X-Posting from Indo-US Strategic thread)

Yes, I have certainly identified Wilsonians with Atlanticism in previous comments on various occasions.

I think that when John Major's Tory campaign advisors worked for Bush Sr's re-election campaign, this was probably a high watermark of Anglo-American closeness. The Clinton Democrats seemed to hold a grudge against them for that, and later on James Carville and Democrat campaign advisors then returned the favour by helping Blair's election campaign win office.

Clinton and Blair seemed to work closely on the Yugoslavia war, again showing the primacy of Anglo-Americanism. But when Blair tried to carry that over to Bush and his ill-conceived war in Iraq, then things went off the rails. Things only deteriorated further under Brown, and now Cameron finds himself dealing with the mess.

I don't think Britain has the direct international clout anymore to deal with India the way Washington has behaved with London. But consider this - the Brits do have the technological capability to help build up India's infrastructure, along with a centuries-earned social/cultural/cultural knowledge of India to avoid stepping on too many toes in the process. They have an intimate familiarity with how Indians think. It is their social/political/cultural deftness and adroitness which could allow them to penetrate farther into India than other international competitors. I'm certain they would do leagues better than the Japanese, whose own cultural cluelessness about India gives them far more caution than agility.

If the Brits can help to break political gridlock in India to accelerate our economic and infrastructural development, then I think we should welcome them. In the process they'll reap the rewards of a large and hitherto untapped market.

If Britain's leap of faith beyond the Atlanticist camp achieves a successful landing, then the EU's days may be numbered (as if they aren't already!)
With Britain's age-old experience as a globe-spanning empire, they may be fated to re-write the rules of the international order yet again.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Sanjay M »

sanjaykumar wrote:Thirdly Britain can function as India's aircraft carrier parked just on the coast of EU, the biggest single market in the world.


Truth be told, India will have come of age when a naval/hydrographic survey is launched to the Arctic.


Until then India is a regional power.
Neither India nor London can treat each other as junior partners, the way Washington behaved towards its allies. India has size, but not a whole lot of international savvy. Britain has its proven savvy as an old hegemon, but no longer commands an empire.

India and the UK can join forces, to multiply each others' advantages.

In an age of increasing instability, a revived Commonwealth could provide the advantage of reassurance through past familiarities. The Commonwealth could create a political umbrella for India that surpasses the ineffectualness of the old NAM. This could provide more of an edge in competing with China for other underdeveloped markets.
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Rudradev »

I would treat David Cameron's overtures to India with a strong degree of healthy skepticism, especially when it comes to ideas of forming long-term geopolitical axes.

As other posters have mentioned on this thread, the British have always been masterful at balance-of-power, playing the Spanish Hapsburgs and the French Bourbons against one another to their own advantage for centuries. In India they played the same game very successfully, many times over. The British are slippery characters who vividly illustrate the Wilsonian dictum "there are no permanent friends, only permanent interests."

The one time the British assumed that they had a "permanent friendship" was with the United States following the Second World War. Wilsonians strongly upheld the Anglo-American transatlantic relationship as a cornerstone of Soviet containment.

However, with the end of the Cold War, the story changed. Clinton-Wilsonians tended to relegate Britain to the role of one among many allies in the Western European Strategic Theatre; but the British, hoping to maintain primacy among the Western European allies of Washington, eagerly went along with Clinton-Wilsonian initiatives such as the Balkan conflict. At the end of the day, however, the British had gained little compared to the Germans, or the post-Soviet East European allies, or even the French (whose blue helmet forces had been receiving a drubbing in Yugoslavia before the NATO involvement.)

When the Bush-Wilsonians launched the Iraq war, Blair made the cardinal mistake of assuming that the UK's permanent friendship or "special relationship" with Washington was to be prioritized over and above the conflicting interests of the Bush-Wilsonians and the Clinton-Wilsonians, or indeed Britain's own independent interest. Blair went along with the Iraq invasion even while other Western European nations stayed out, betting all on the reinforcement of the US-UK "special relationship" that he thought was implied.

After expending much blood and treasure for very little gain in Iraq, the British found themselves being given the cold shoulder by the Obama administration's establishment of Jeffersonians and Clinton-Wilsonians. Symbolically, Churchill's bust (a sacred totem to the Bush-Wilsonians) was cleared out of the Oval Office, and Gordon Brown received a meagre present of Hollywood film DVDs from Obama!

The Tories currently in power seem to have finally realized the truth of the dictum that Britain had once survived and thrived by... no permanent friends, only permanent interests. Certainly they are disillusioned with the thought of a US-UK "special relationship", at least for the present, as Cameron's statements during the campaign demonstrate.

It is because of this that they are trying to consolidate an alternate forum of cooperation and alliance, independent of both the EU and the US, that includes India.

But we would do well to remember what the British are and how they have behaved throughout history. They will drop us like a hot potato if we get too powerful, or if they see their interests better served by throwing in their lot with the US or EU at any time in the future.

We must get what we can out of the British while the getting is good... but not really plan on anything long-term.
svinayak
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Rudradev wrote:I would treat David Cameron's overtures to India with a strong degree of healthy skepticism, especially when it comes to ideas of forming long-term geopolitical axes.

We must get what we can out of the British while the getting is good... but not really plan on anything long-term.
It will be a long time before any geo political axis will form.
RajeshA
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Rudradev wrote:But we would do well to remember what the British are and how they have behaved throughout history. They will drop us like a hot potato if we get too powerful, or if they see their interests better served by throwing in their lot with the US or EU at any time in the future.

We must get what we can out of the British while the getting is good... but not really plan on anything long-term.
When the British ask for a 'special-relationship' with some other country, they are asking for
  • To be given some special privileges not available to other countries.
  • To be given some special attention and massaging of their ego as an erstwhile great power.
I am not completely averse to giving them slightly more access to India, if they manage to bring something to the table, which could include
  • A Commonwealth FTA
  • Marginalization of Pakistan, both through USA and EU
  • Support for a permanent veto-carrying seat in the UNSC
  • Innovative Technologies
  • Preferential Visa and Immigration opportunities for Indians
  • ....
Furthermore, I don't see much loss to India in massaging British ego once in a while, and calling the relationship 'special'! India is confident enough now to not have a colonial hangover any more. When we say, 'India is open for business', then massaging the ego of the partners, or even scolding them, as is needed, is part and parcel of diplomacy.

When British speak of 'special relationship', they mean they are going to use it as a crutch to strengthen their position in the world. Of course, it is also dependent on the other to allow the British to use them as a crutch. If India does not foresee it as a loss, then she can allow the British to boast that they have a special relationship with a superpower, 'India'! Some regular, Indo-British Summit could be a part of this 'special relationship', and let the British feel special!
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

frankly - just expertise and investment in india's infrastructure sector alone will create so much improvement in india's economic power that it will have many more multiplicative effects on Indian power and positioning
but agreed that its not correct to imagine some sort of global hard alliance like the US's AAA strategy (US homeland + atlantic poodle + pacific poodle) at the inner core with EU and Japan on the 2nd ring, etc.) - we dont want or need that

commonwealth FTA i think is a very interesting idea, i did raise it before, but was pooh-poohed since i didn't automatically rename it as Greater Indian Co-properity Sphere ;-)
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by munna »

My post in India, Mexico et al thread on 28 May 2010 Linky
Kancha wrote:Gentlemen, a noobie question, Plz indulge me.
What is it exactly that we gain by being a member of the Commonwealth? Aussies have no love lost for us, the Brits are in a league of their own, then there is Pakistan and now Canada.
What good this company does for us is beyond me.
I think people here are refusing to see what some people in establishment could be thinking about. Its all about our future! The Commonwealth of Great Britain or simply the Commonwealth is an amalgam of 54 countries that were members of the British empire in the past, so-what gives? Why are we associated with this relic from past century? Why are we even bothered about UK?
Before we delve into usual Dilli Billi/US is the big baap/Londonistan/"Meri University Teri University se Safed hai" kind of useless and frankly counter-productive logic, I present a case for the "Commonwealth"

1) India to replace Britain as the leader of commonwealth: Believe it or not but this is one international organization that has not been infiltrated by the lizard and remains a place where India counts for a lot without hyphenation. The Secretary General of the body is an Indian and the Chairperson is a person of Indian origin. Canada and Australia have moved onto complete poodledom of USA and China respectively and we cannot expect them to be serious about commonwealth. However we have a decent chance of power projection and strengthening the group around ourselves. The key is that Commonwealth should become an exclusive preserve of Indo-UK entente!

2) Commonwealth Countries include huge concentrations of PIOs: All the Commonwealth countries host major PIO and NRI populations. These populations may not be very rich but they are politically powerful lot within the countries ie Trinidad and Tobago (the PM is an Indian origin lady), Fiji, Guyana and even UK. The "Commonwealth" platform shall serve to create an institutional paltform for Indian to connect and harness these population to further the geopolitical goals of India. These populations have often been let down by Indian state and it is high time now to remedy the situation and start building our power projection to help such populations of Indians become more potent. Think about votes in the UN and overseas power projection!

3) Trade and Business: Most commonwealth countries share the laws and business regulations therefore making for nearly seemless business and trade between the countries. Indian companies and institutions should make a grand effort at harnessing these synergies and establish Indian as the top dog when it comes to trade and business efforts within the Commonwealth.

4) Power Projection: Indian "helped" suspend Paqs in 1999 and 2007 from the Commonwealth Membership causing much and heartburn across the Ravi. The key here is that stronger the "Commonwealth" the greater is the heartburn to Paqs when they will be shoved around.

Finally I would like to say that Britains' conservatives have realized the limits of their country's power and potential. They are seeking a renewed "special" relationship with India and Indians should take this opportunity to inherit the leadership of Commonwealth in lieu of stronger economic ties and help in making UK competitive in atleast some economic fields. UK is a country whom we can manage without being swamped off our feet, the same cannot be said about Khan. If William Hague and David Cameron can move beyond the old postures and Millibundish logic, why should not we do the same?
Its time to think and think big, Commonwealth is a network that may be old and clunky but one that can be harnessed by us to a devastating effect. I rest my case.
Hari Seldon
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

Yeah, yeah, I agree.

If we can get some good out of the commonwealth, why not.

And yes, we should at least try and bid for leadership position.

Of course, goes w/o saying that the moment the c'wealth and all starts to even distantly seem like it might begin to somehow matter in geopol calculations, we can expect to see hajaar pressure for 'observer' status, like happened with SAARC (which, btw, could not even take off to a 100th of its potential. And just like in SAARC, TSP remans in the c'wealth an eager, rentable wh0re for anyone wishing to meddle to Yindia's detriment. And then there's UQ itself ensconced in there.

But yes, nothing will come easy for us here on. We're starting to grow too big to slip by unnoticed at geopol galas, despite our best attempts to downplay our existence. Time we at least made an honest attempt at serving our supreme national interests unapologetically, just like the rest of them. Only.

And oh, Jai ho.:)
Lalmohan
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Lalmohan »

^^ I nominate Hari for special ambassador for New Commonwealth Charter drafting committee from BRF
Hari Seldon
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^ I'm honored. But I'd have to recuse myself only on account of significant emotional involvement. Only.
biswas
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by biswas »

Lalmohan wrote:^^ I nominate Hari for special ambassador for New Commonwealth Charter drafting committee from BRF
I second this movement.
abhischekcc
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by abhischekcc »

^^^Hari, your significant emotional involvement with UQ is the reason we are nominating you in the first place :mrgreen:

And while you are at it, can you dish up a constitution for them as well. Make sure it gives veto powers to pakis, so that the Brits can learn first hand the joys of living too close to those human detritus. :twisted:
JE Menon
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by JE Menon »

:D
joshvajohn
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by joshvajohn »

India and UK should find ways of etstablishing mutual benefit. There are good ways policing and network9ing with comunities. Emergency services and other updated security system - British organisations and government agencies can provide a good training and equipment for Indian context. There are a number of ways of collaboration besides what we already have.
chetak
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by chetak »

Hari Seldon wrote:Yeah, yeah, I agree.

If we can get some good out of the commonwealth, why not.

And yes, we should at least try and bid for leadership position.

Of course, goes w/o saying that the moment the c'wealth and all starts to even distantly seem like it might begin to somehow matter in geopol calculations, we can expect to see hajaar pressure for 'observer' status, like happened with SAARC (which, btw, could not even take off to a 100th of its potential. And just like in SAARC, TSP remans in the c'wealth an eager, rentable wh0re for anyone wishing to meddle to Yindia's detriment. And then there's UQ itself ensconced in there.

But yes, nothing will come easy for us here on. We're starting to grow too big to slip by unnoticed at geopol galas, despite our best attempts to downplay our existence. Time we at least made an honest attempt at serving our supreme national interests unapologetically, just like the rest of them. Only.

And oh, Jai ho.:)

India should quickly opt out of this gathering of hijras.

It's just like shashi tharoor, all cattle and no class.

We are still kissing the queen's backside 60 odd years after the event. Queen's baton relay indeed!!!
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Murugan »

Itihas gawah hai -

The maximum wealth of commonwealth is wealth of India that is Bharat.

Bharat is and should be the leader of commonwealth.
Stan_Savljevic
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Re: Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Post by Stan_Savljevic »

Yes, we were forced to accede to the Commonwealth by force in 1947.
Those who are interested can read:
1) Anita Inder Singh, "Keeping India in the Commonwealth: British Political and Military Aims, 1947-49," Journal of Contemporary History, Vol. 20, No. 3 (July 1985), pp. 469-481 (as usual, copyright-issue bar pdf is available at the usual suspect email address)
2) Or Mihir Bose's take on this matter, that I x-posted in the crikkit dhaaga: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 90#p899390

But just like always, we have learned to make the best use of another opportunity to do chai-biskoot. Why else will we be part of essentially defunct organizations such as the Kunming initiative when BIMSTEC would suffice? The more, the merrier -- in terms of providing fora to do chai-biskoot. Regardless of the rhetoric, we still have to do business with the UK. It is better to know the devil than let it take gargantuan shapes due to our ignorance. Makes zero sense to walk out of the CW, esp when we are a Republic. Anyway, here is the MEA take on CW:
meaindia.nic.in/onmouse/India-Commonwealth.pdf
4. India has a natural partnership with the Commonwealth. It is a community of English speaking countries. It has a preponderance of developing countries who want to promote South-South cooperation. It is an association which puts a premium on democracy and good governance, where India has so much to share with others. It provides a platform to interact and build consensus with a very diverse group of countries, including G-8 countries like the UK and Canada, developing countries as
well as Small States.

5. The Commonwealth is a unique international grouping with bulk of its
membership coming from 32 Small States. There is a great degree of genuine appreciation among these States for India as the largest and a vibrant democracy and for the high-tech advancement and economic progress India has achieved in the past decade and a half. India has a growing profile of development cooperation with these states.

6. A large number of Commonwealth countries also have a sizeable Indian
population. The promotion, maintenance and strengthening of healthy democratic institutions and rule of law in these countries is in our interest.

7. Though the UN remains the principal forum for multilateral action, the
Commonwealth is eminently placed in addressing many issues through its unique style of functioning which is consensus-building, informality and goodwill. The informal ways in which dialogue is conducted and decisions arrived at in the Commonwealth bodies provide a very good basis for addressing common concerns. The CHOGM Summits provide, through the Retreat, an opportunity for the leaders to interact informally in a relaxed atmosphere.
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