Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 05 Aug 2010 23:29

unfortunately all useless when the convoy is a bunch of toyata pickups

Gilles · Post by **Gilles** » 06 Aug 2010 02:47

Singha wrote: pakis took 2

Pakistan's are not from factory. They are used machines purchased from Ukraine.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2010 08:17

> unfortunately all useless when the convoy is a bunch of toyata pickups

in our context when desi-JStars is in serious use we will shot at anything, including camel and mule convoys if we can detect biomass. I agree in asymmetric COIN wars, its harder esp if the bad guys DONT travel in convoys but in lone vehicles like civilians do.

imagine what a Jstars could do in a large scale land-air battle when one is on the offensive and large nos of mobile units in loose contact are marching ahead
and looking for targets. it will lift the fog of war and nullify the chances of any tactically brilliant pakmoves hitting us from a unexpected salient - get the intel and confirm it with a UAV, then unleash the IAF, 155mm tubes and MLRS on it - at night.

this is 20 yr old tech for sher khan and UK has astor/France has horizon since 5-10 yrs.

we should be getting some largeish EMB-xxx biz jets and mounting some ELTA/Desi SAR radar and battle consoles on it.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Aug 2010 09:44

IMO, this J-STAR thing or it's equivalent is the next critical thing which should be on Services acquisition radar. With AWACS+Upgraded ADGES, this will form the final leg of the 25X7 surveillence network. No more surprises like what are the positions of PA ARN/ARS Armored Divisions.....we'll know the axis of movement and likely assault before hand....

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2010 10:13

singha

agree

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 06 Aug 2010 14:35

Singha, i recall seeing the JSTARS image of Kuwait in a mag, you could pretty much count every tank, truck and jeep on the highway stretching out of kuwait, all the way into eye-raq. really astonishing clarity - and that from a declassified image

overlay with sigint and you know which units are where, etc. for our gujrat/rajasthan/punjab theatre, highly useable

now, the same thing worked less well in the wooded hills of serbia, as we saw large numbers of intact serbian armour happily drive down from the hills after weeks of LGB pounding was supposed to have blown them to smithereens

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Aug 2010 14:40

yes inflatable dummies and props did them in...

I think J-Stars picked up a lot of things but the Serbians were clever...

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Aug 2010 17:08

But then Serbia and GW were ages ago....the system would have been refined further to not allow for what happened (actuallu, did not happen) earlier

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2010 17:13

yes...some kinda spooky SAR/ISAR imaging capability is also said to be part of the APG >77 family, though obviously the E8 jstars radar is far more powerful and tied to real time battle controller network. this sar/isar thing is claimed to be able to peer through vegetation and detect vehicles.

I think we were in process of getting a SAR recon pod from Elta and likely it can be mounted on Heron or Eitan but the low amt of onboard payload and power will surely mean its 10X lesser than a true big jet mounted platform in ventral or side fairings.

we have opened our account in everything upto space based assets except for this - so far.

more than pakistan, it will permit targeted and time critical pounding of the PLA Divisional-MSRs deep into tibet.

at night, 400km into the plateau, the ability to pinpoint the exact locations in real time of supply convoys and armour/trains and relay that to in-flight jaguar squadrons is totally priceless.

I think with advancements in radar tech since ODS1, even the type and location of S300 batteries (silent ones) can still be picked up from the pattern of parking, size of rcs, number of vehicles etc....a nirbhay mk1 can be sent to make enquiries

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Aug 2010 17:39

Only difference is that once Nirbhay Mk1 enquires and gets a positive feedback, it blasts you to pieces.....tch tch...some guest

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Aug 2010 17:56

Well there was some talk of the British Astor not so long ago...

BTW the russkis have nicer looking dummies now

Scroll down

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technol ... we-respect

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 06 Aug 2010 17:57

Yes the APG-77 is said to have SAR capability.

The new jaguar upgrade may also see the incorporation of a SAR.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Aug 2010 18:23

I had read about in context of the apg81 radar for JSF. makes sense because jsf will do far more a2g that f22. also being 1-seater they are trying to ease the process for pilot to surveil the area and designate targets as this article mentions.

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/categor ... _1145.html

rad · Post by **rad** » 09 Aug 2010 10:16

Its high time we invested in SAR aircraft like the sentinel program of the UK based on a bombardier ac , I hear they are very pleased with the performance as it incorporates technology more later than the JSTAR platform, it has been offered to india and we should go for it or we should go for the israeli version based on a gulf stream , we have an awacs for the air scenario and we have to have a dedicated intelligence platform for the land scenario .Though we have SAR pods el-2060 on fighters they wouldnt have the staying power and the processing power of the large dedicated platforms . The after using such sysytems in afghanistan and iraq the battle field commandrs have reported to have said that till now they were fighting a war blindfolded.
The induction of AESA equiped MMRCA would deffinately help but we need these large platforms, to have a edge over the enemy. The MTI mode on these ac will identify enemy movement deep inside their territory and we can count the number of tanks or vehicles moving. The israeli platform would deffinately help as it would be easier to intergrate the air and land scenario as the awacs is already if isralei origin and fusing data from two different sources wil be difficult

rad

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Aug 2010 02:46

GD have you seen this issue of DRDO Techfocus:

http://drdo.gov.in/drdo/pub/techfocus/2010/jun10.pdf

Sorry if already posted.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 14 Aug 2010 07:15

The fuselage of India's first Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft was completed on 22 March 2010 at Embraer's facility in Brazil, marking the beginning of the physical manufacture of the modified aircraft for India's AEW&C programme. Some of the folks in the photo include DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat, IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal NV Tyagi, DRDO CC R&D (Ae & SI) Dr Prahlada and CABS Director Dr S Christopher.

Photo Courtesy DRDO

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 14 Aug 2010 20:32

Can anyone tell as how many consoles be operated into this fuslage for Awacs Operators?

sum · Post by **sum** » 14 Aug 2010 20:51

The fuselage of India's first Airborne Early Warning and Control (AEW&C) aircraft was completed on 22 March 2010 at Embraer's facility in Brazil, marking the beginning of the physical manufacture of the modified aircraft for India's AEW&C programme. Some of the folks in the photo include DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat, IAF Deputy Chief Air Marshal NV Tyagi, DRDO CC R&D (Ae & SI) Dr Prahlada and CABS Director Dr S Christopher.

Has the timeline for initial fuselage being ready been met or is there a delay already?

IIRC, the integration phase will be the major effort and might take some overruns in schedules..

ranjithnath · Post by **ranjithnath** » 14 Aug 2010 21:11

Bihanga wrote:Can anyone tell as how many consoles be operated into this fuslage for Awacs Operators?

http://frontierindia.net/the-indian-aew ... t-detailed

Logically the IAF has asked for 7 extra executive chairs for additional 5 operators and 2 pilots. Hence there has been 3 years delay in the signing of Embraer platform.

The AEW&C designed to accomodate 5 re-configurable controller workstations. The work stations can be re-configured for electronic warfare consoles or communication consoles etc.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 15 Aug 2010 08:28

Why can we just buy Airbus 320 or Boeing 737 and retrofit them with AEW&C and we won't have the space or ergonomic problems and we won't have a problem with spares since spares can be interchanged with civilian aircrafts should the need arise.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Aug 2010 09:41

there is no readymade soln for Airbus320 and while B737 wedgetail is there, its american soln.
brazil has already the saab ereyie radar in service on its EMB and has the ready databank on how to do it. plus its brazil not unkil.

ofcourse here will be some compromise in endurance and payload vs a wedgetail.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Aug 2010 16:21

Good feature on China's KJ-2000 AWACS.

http://the-diplomat.com/2010/08/11/chin ... dium=email

EXcerpts:

The airborne C3ISR segment has also seen investment, with three concurrent programmes to develop AWACS/AEW&C capabilities. Following the abortive KJ-1 effort, the PLA invested in developing a conventional system carried by the Y-8. This system was supplanted by the KJ-200, which uses electronically steered active phased array radar technology that’s two generations ahead of the mechanically steered technology used by the US.

The much larger KJ-2000 AWACS, which also uses active phased array radar, is directly modeled on Israel’s A-50I and Elta Phalcon radar. The PLA had actually negotiated the purchase of the A-50I, only to have the Clinton administration block the sale, resulting in an acrimonious war of words. As a consequence, the Chinese made a national commitment to build their own—resulting a decade later in the recently deployed milestone of the KJ-2000.

All this means that China is deploying a modern, high technology air defence system based largely on the same or more advanced basic technologies used by the US, EU and Russia in their systems.

Once fully deployed and matured, this system will be effectively impregnable to regional air forces, and largely impregnable to US naval air power, itself the victim of chronic underinvestment. Indeed, the technology being deployed in strength by the PLA is so sophisticated that only the small planned inventory of US Air Force B-2A Spirit and F-22 Raptor aircraft will be capable of confidently penetrating a post-2015 PLA air defence network.

Washington, meanwhile, has yet to appreciate the long-term strategic implications of this developing West Pacific environment.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 26 Aug 2010 13:36

How did we miss this?

India asks for enhanced systems on third Il-76 AEW

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Aug 2010 14:21

well well well...just because the panda has slapped a few stickers on its toys doesnt mean they are better than the uprated E3/E2 flying around and the newer wedgetail type things.

I dont think the PLAAF has a fleet wide datalink in place yet - something usaf has had for decades now.

nits · Post by **nits** » 06 Sep 2010 17:24

India to have ‘giant eyes’ in the skies

It will be India’s eyes in the sky, the ones that from 70,000 feet can keep tabs over the entire Indian subcontinent.

The Department of Science and Technology (DST) is developing an indigenous unmanned High Altitude Airship (HAA) – a towering Zeppelinlike aircraft – to closely monitor the country’s coastline, borders and the Maoist “red corridor”, said a scientist associated with the project.

The airship will be powered by solar panels and will have regenerating fuel cells which will make it operational during night also. A Technology Demonstrator weighing about 50 kg will be built and later for the production of the final version that can carry payloads weighing 2,000 kg

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 13 Sep 2010 14:13

Embraer aircraft with Indian warning system to fly by 2011

'And the aircraft with the Indian AEWCS will be flying in India by the end of 2011 (after tests),' he said, during an interaction with the media here Friday.

The Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE) is making self-protection systems, electronic warfare suites and provide communication support systems. The heart of the radar is from the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment. The integration of the systems, mission computer, display and data handling is being done by the Centre for Airborne Systems (CABS).

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 14 Sep 2010 06:01

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 14 Sep 2010 11:33

thanks for the above post Craig, I dont see any slanting bulge just above the wings as shown in the model there in the newly constructed fuselage pic posted a few posts above. Adding the hat on top

could be different , but adding those slanting bulges on either side could be tricky. Those slant bulges could have added right from the beginning.
Gurus, please shed some light on this.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 14 Sep 2010 13:37

I have seen such bulges in side looking radars . not sure what its role be in our product...addl bulge room for electronic console, some kind of a2a datalink antenna ? the blade antennas sticking all around for radio comms I think.

manum · Post by **manum** » 14 Sep 2010 13:49

but adding those slanting bulges on either side could be tricky. Those slant bulges could have added right from the beginning.

it wont be much of trouble...specially for the first prototype...those bulges will be constructed as a secondary objects and then attached....or riveted (for prototype)...
in other ways...the they could cut the the circumference (little bit extra out of it) and then attach those bulges...but for that they will require structural changes...or in other words...they can keep the frame circular from inside periphery to ideally transfer the load, and external periphery of the frame can be bulged to support the form....with holes inside to fix the equipments....

and they didn't put the bulge in fuselage because they were still undecided about position, shape and size of bulge to great accuracy(design issue), when they to place orders, as per meeting deadlines...and hence they decided to go ahead with basic fuselage to be edited later, than wrong bulges in place...and hence more correction...

PS...its a guess, and i m no guru, so my accuracy is lesser...

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Sep 2010 14:51

Singha wrote:I have seen such bulges in side looking radars . not sure what its role be in our product...addl bulge room for electronic console, some kind of a2a datalink antenna ? the blade antennas sticking all around for radio comms I think.

During “Aero-India 09” CABS was handing out “7 page” brochures on our EMB145 AWACS..
As per the schematic Diagram mentioned therein..
Top Bulge (Crowning) contains “C band and Ku Band Voice and Data Communication Link”
Side bulge Contains “Electronic Support Measures”

This brochure contains detail info..

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 14 Sep 2010 16:53

CABS Brochure-Aero-India 09

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Sep 2010 04:10

Indian Airborne Early Warning Aircraft On Track
Aviation Week

The Bengaluru-based Center for Airborne Systems (CABS) is handling development, with the program’s total cost pegged at Rs 1,800-2,000 crore ($389.3 million-$432.6 million).

India and Brazil signed a deal in 2008 under which Embraer will modify its EMB-145 to carry the Active Array Antenna Unit on the aircraft’s fuselage.

“Three Modified EMB-145s would be developed under the agreement and will be delivered in phases,” Prahlada adds. “The Indigenous AEW&CS would detect, identify and classify threats present in the surveillance area and act as a command-and-control center to support air operations.”

The IAF Wants 20 More Such Platforms.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Sep 2010 10:34

^^^The number of EMB-145 AWACS wanted by IAF and which should make it to the service may partly explain the TSP request to Uncle for aerial surveillance capability and saying, 'we don't mind if the same is given to India as well'. Guess, the power that be in TSP realize that India is going to take a serious lead in this arena. And something like JSTARS is natural extension of all this effort. And all may not be well with Chinese AWACS being inducted.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Sep 2010 10:43

so brf rants were right - around 25 emb145 and 10 phalcons.

this should permit 24x7 overlapping coverage over north and west + IN will surely want a few emb145 to help its
naval forces from western shore and andamans (maybe around 6)

detection of low flying cruise missiles against ground clutter or flying within mountain ranges is a must.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Sep 2010 13:25

Singha wrote:so brf rants were right - around 25 emb145 and 10 phalcons.

^^ Where was the number of Phalcons mentioned at 10?

TIA...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Sep 2010 13:40

various people like me had demanded 20+ phalcons and 50+ emb, but we are willing to negotiate down to 10. reports speak of 3 more phalcons in pipeline. and anyone reasonable knows just 6 airframes given the time to station from secure bases in south/central india and loiter time (with two refueling) while on station can hardly generate much of 24x7 coverage.

if a couple of deadly prongs of 50 planes each have to head deep into tibet for a air sweep/S300 hunt, then more phalcons are needed because PLAAF will throw everything at the problem.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 15 Sep 2010 14:48

There is a DTI article ( AW&ST group) which ends with a line at the end that says that given mountainous areas 12 would be the ideal number of Phalcons for India.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 Sep 2010 15:10

What kind of range of detection is expected from the Indian AEWC

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 15 Sep 2010 18:04

Completely out of my musharraf, I would estimate 4 phalcons for 24x7 coverage in one sector (3*8 hours, 1 in maintenance). 12 gives us enough for 3 sectors, is that enough for two fronts? AEW&C can be gap-fillers and for emergency use.