Managing Pakistan's failure

[RajeshA]

Some info on Pakistan's richest families, for those who find it interesting. Got it from this link

Top 44 Richest Families in PAKISTAN - 2008

Dec 8, 2007 in Pakistan

Short-listing Pakistan's most influential business magnates or Groups has never been an easy task because there are the people who have been very powerful in nearly every regime that has held this country's reins since the last 60 years and then we have had those seasonal species that maneuvered their voice to be heard better than most within the power corridors, but later vanished into the oblivion for one reason or the other. We have selected only those tycoons who have made their presence felt for a better part of country's history, have earned consistently, have been setting up units at regular intervals or have been legends in stocks, currency or real estate business.

The list excludes many names that have previously qualified and all of Pakistan's most prominent feudal land lords who would definitely make it to the top 10, expect the few land owners which have declared their assets and work force and registered with the CBR Islamabad. In order to promote the new and "unknown" Pakistani magnates we have excluded in previous entities.

Unfortunately, our extensive research does not currently include the names of a few stars that shone brightly amidst the galaxy of the influential creed of yesteryear like C.M.Latif of BECO- the Steel Man of Pakistan- who did make a lot of name once, but then got gifted with contentment somehow, although the late business wizard got very badly hit by Bhutto's nationalization of 1970 which had inflicted an astounding thud to everybody in business then. Had it not been the case, many of our tycoons may well have managed to gain the kind of status greeting the likes of Birlas and Tatas in India today, if not the one saluting Bill Gates or Warren Buffet. Among these gifted individuals, you will find politicians-turned-businessmen, businessmen-turned-politicians or even the businessmen-cum-politicians. With malice towards none and with no intention to decorate somebody, We thus takes the pride of announcing these names. We hope this document will go a long way in serving as the most authentic endeavor of its kind for a very long time to come. It has been prepared very carefully in consultation with leading real estate barons, stock moguls, business leaders of virtue and senior bureaucrats at the Central Board of Revenue.

1 - Mian Muhammad Mansha Yaha Pakistan

Ranking: 1 Worth: £1.25b ($2.5billion)Industry: Businessman

Mansha has around 40 companies on board. Mansha, who owns the Muslim Commercial Bank is also setting up a $ 17m paper mill. He is one of the richest Pakistanis around. Nishat Group was country's 15th richest family in 1970, 6th in 1990 and Number 1 in 1997. Mansha is on the board of nearly 50 companies. He is deemed to have made investments in many bourses, currency and metal exchanges both within and outside Pakistan. He could have bought the United Bank too, but then who doesn't have adversaries. Nishat Group comprises of textiles, cement, leasing, insurance and management companies. If Mansha was bitten by Bhutto's nationalization stint of 1970, his friends think he was compensated by Nawaz Sharif's denationalization programme to a very good effect. There is no stopping Mansha and he is still on the move.

Nishat group assets are $4.4Billion. He is sometimes even regarded as the richest Pakistani around by his friends claiming he does not "show it off".

2 - Asif Ali Zardari Pakistan

Ranking: 2 Worth: £900m ($1.8billion) Industry: Politics

Asif Zardari dubbed "Mr 10%" an unknown happy-go-lucky son of a small-time businessman who struck gold by marrying one of the worlds most glamorous women Former Prime Minister of Pakistan Benzair Bhutto. Taking advantage of his wife's authority he is known to have taken kickbacks from many deals inside and outside of Pakistan. The most famous was a $4 billion deal to buy 32 Mirage jets from the French company Dassault. Documents, which include letters from Dassault executives, indicate an agreement was reached to pay a 5% "remuneration" - about $200m - to Marleton Business, a BVI company controlled by Zardari. Besides these many more kickback deals were taken with companies such as ARY Gold, Société Général de Surveillance (SGS), Cotecna, and ZPC Ursus, a Polish tractor company.

Zardari assets holding amount into hundreds of millions of dollars easily, Having 8 prime properties in the UK, of which once is the famous Rockwood Estate 365 acres in Surrey, worth £4.35m has now been sold and money sent back to the Govt. of Pakistan. Also 14 multi-million dollar mansions in the USA, including owning Holiday Inn hotel Houston, Texas Owned by "Mr 10%" and Iqbal Memon and Sadar-ud-Din Hashwani.

They (Zardari and B.Bhutto) also have huge business ventures in the Middle East running into hundreds of millions if not billion mark. Mr Zardari also has huge stakes in sugar mills all over Pakistan,which include: Sakrand Sugar Mills, Nawabshah, Ansari Sugar Mills, Hyderabad, Mirza Sugar Mills, Badin, Pangrio Sugar Mills, Thatta and Bachani Sugar Mills, Sanghar.

3 - Sir Anwar Pervaiz UK

Ranking: 3 Worth: £750m ($1.5billion) Industry: Businessman

Chairman of Bestway Group. The Bestway Group started in 1976 with its first Bestway cash and carry warehouse opened in London. Today the have in total around 50 Cash and Carry's. Including their recent takeover of rival group Batleys for around £100m. Bestway Group ventured into Pakistan's huge the cement business in 1995 and set up cement manufacturing plant in Pakistan at a cost of $120 million.

Taking Advantage of Pakistan growing economy they also acquired a 25.5% stake in United Bank Limited in 2002. Today, the Bestway Group has interests in cash & carry wholesale, property investments, retail outlets, milling of rice, lentils and pulses, cement production and more recently into banking. The group's total sales amounted to in excess of £ 2 billion. The group provides direct employment to thousands in the UK and Pakistan. The have many interests in Pakistan too. Sir Anwar Pervaiz and his his partners sheer hard work has bought them to outstanding international levels, which definitely makes him an ideal role model for many young Pakistanis today. He still on the move!

4 - Nawaz Sharif & Shahbaz Sharif family Saudi Arabia/Pakistan

Ranking: 4 Worth: £700m ($1.4billion) Industry: Politics/Businessman

Mr Sharif Businessman turned politician the former Prime Minister of Pakistan. He was ousted in a military coup in 1999 and was forced to forfeit $9million dollars and some of his assets including his $5m Mansion is Raiwind near Lahore. Before becoming PM he was a major share holder along with his brother and cousins of Ittefaq Group, having assets well in excess of £50m in the 90's. However he got richer when he took commissions from foreign companies for construction in Pakistan. He build the first motorway and many new roads and took heavy kickbacks. He then also stole $100m from the Iqra funds, he started a new scheme "Ghar Apna" in which he again looted around $40m, the "Mulk swaaro" scheme involving public & govt. money collections to help pay pf Pakistan's debts also was pocketed. Today he lives in exile in Saudi Arabia where it is known he has a new huge business empire in various sectors.

5 - Saddaruddin Hashwani Pakistan

Ranking: 5 Worth: £550m ($1.1billion) Industry: Businessman

Saddaruddin Hashwani is Chairman Hashoo Group is known for his dominance in Pakistan's hotel industry, though Hashwanis are have huge strength in real estate business too. Hashwanis are involved in trading of cotton, grain and steel and till the nationalization of cotton export in 1974, they were widely being dubbed as the Cotton Kings of Pakistan. Today, this group has excelled in export of rice, wheat, cotton and barley. It owns textile units, besides having invested billions in mines, minerals. hotels, insurance, batteries, tobacco, residential properties, construction, engineering and information technology. In 1984, Hashwani defeated the Lakhanis in the bid for Premier Tobacco but was arrested along with his brother Akbar in 1986 for allegedly evading customs duty on cigarettes. Sadarduddin's brother Akbar and the children of another late brother Hassan Ali Hashwani together manage around 45 companies. Akbar runs the second Hashwani Group. He is one of the most well-known magnates in Pakistan who is a regular invitee at the Diplomatic Enclave. The list of local and international bigwigs known personally to Hashwani is unending.

6 - Nasir Schon & family U.A.E/Pakistan

Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

Nasir Schon is a prominent business leader of Pakistan and the CEO of Schon Group. Nasir Schon is the son of Captain Ather Schon Hussain, an ex-pilot of PIA. The Schon family is one of the few striving Muhajir Urdu business families in Pakistan. Starting off in Singapore in 1982, the peek of Schon group was in 1995 when they owned National Fibres, Schon Bank, Schon Textiles and Pak-China Fertizilers. Famous for the trend-setting roundabout, Schon Circle, Nasir Schon is also known to be one of the first people to have a Rolls-Royce in Pakistan. Directors of Schon group flew to Dubai in 1997 in exile after the dismissal of ex-Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto. The directors of Schon group were known to have close contacts with the husband of former Prime Minister, Asif Zardari. Many assets of the Schon group were auctioned by the Nawaz Sharif government. Schon Group is the only group in Pakistan who has paid the government over 3 billion rupees ($65m) in order to return from exile. Living in Dubai gave Nasir Schon an opportunity to start businesses there. Currently working on an $830 million real estate project known as Dubai lagoon, Schon group is also fighting to get back the assets they once lost. Currently, the Schon group operates a pilot training center in Pakistan known as Schon Air.

7 - Abdul Razzaq Yakoub & family U.A.E

Ranking: 6 (tied at 6) Worth: £500m ($1billion) Industry: Businessman

Mr Yakoub is a prominent Pakistani expatriate businessman based in Dubai. He is the president ARY group ($1.5Billion turnover) and World Memon Organization (WMO). He is one of Pakistan's biggest media barons controlling around 7 channels. Besides this he has a huge property holdings in Karachi, Islamabad and Dubai amounting to over $200m. He is major in the gold market also having around 20 outlets in Asia. He has also been involved in paying Asif Zardari $5m in 1990's for allowing him to import/export gold. Which he denies and claim's is government forgeries.

8 - Rafiq Habib & Rasheed Habib Pakistan

Ranking: 7 Worth: £450m ($900) Industry: Businessman

Legend has it that the Goddess of Wealth has been in love with the seasoned Habibs more than anybody else in Pakistan. Most pundits believe that Habibs own at least 100 companies throughout the world, but these content mega-tycoons never boast off, something which has made it uphill for most to predict about their financial standing. This industrial group was founded by Seth Habib Mitha, born in 1878 to Esmail Ali-a factory owner in Bombay. The financial strength of the Habibs can be gauged from the fact that Muhammad Ali Habib gave a cheque of Rs 80 million to Quaid-e-Azam in 1948 at a time when Pakistan government was penniless owing to delay in transfer of Pakistan's share of Rs. 750 million by the Reserve Bank of India. They had offices in Europe in 1912. They incorporated the Habib Bank in 1941. They own the Habib Bank A.G Zurich, Bank Al-Habib, Indus Motors assembling Corolla cars and many dozens of units in sectors such as jute, paper sack, minerals, steel, tiles, synthetics sugar, glass, construction, concrete, farm autos, banking, oil, computers, music, paper, packages, leasing and capital management. Habibs today are headed by Rafiq Habib and Rashid Habib in two distinct groups. What makes them extremely influential players of all times is the fact that for dozens of top businessmen today, Habib were a myth once.

9 - Tariq Saigol & Nasim Saigol Pakistan

Ranking: 8 Worth: £425m ($850) Industry: Businessman

Hailing from Jhelum. The pioneer of the Saigol dynasty in 1890 was Amin Saigol who established a shoe shop that eventually transformed into Kohinoor Rubber Works. And then times saw them shining literally like the Kohinoor until their progress was halted by Nationalization in which they lost two-thirds of their wealth. Saigols got trifurcated in 1976 and 15 descendents of Amin Saigols four sons got a share. The name of the Saigols has been used in this part of the world as similes describing quantum of wealth. Yousaf Saigol, along with his brothers Sayeed Saigol, Bashir Saigol and Gul Saigol then nourished an excellent crop. In 1948, Saigols established the Kohinoor Textile Mills with a cost of Rs 8 million and this group happens to be the first to open an LC with the State Bank of Pakistan. They bought the United Bank in 1959 and then witnessed five of their units getting nationalized. They lived in Saudi Arabia during the Bhutto regime. Today, cousins Tariq and Nasim are holding the family's fort together and have risen to unprecedented heights in individual capacities. NAB did haunt Nasim but Tariq spent more time either accepting or refusing prized slots everywhere. Tariq is the one of the finest business brains around.

10 - Dewan Yousaf Farooqui Pakistan

Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

Mr Farooqui. The mentor of this group has been the Sindh Minister for Local Bodies. Industries, Labour, Transport, Mines & Minerals. Dewan Mushtaq Group is one of the Pakistan's largest industrial conglomerates in sectors like polyester acrylic fiber, manufacturing and automotives. Six of their companies are listed at the Karachi & stock Exchange and one at the Luxembourg bourse. Dewan Farooqui Motors assembles around 10,000 cars annually under technical license agreement with Hyundai and Kia Motors of Korea. The Dewan Salman Fiber is the pride of this empire as it ranks 11th in the world in total production capacity. The group owns three textile units, a motorcycle manufacturing concern and the largest sugar unit in the country. Dewans also have business interests in India. They possess dozens of millions of shares of Saudi Cement and Pak land Cement. They also have the franchise licence for BMW in Pakistan and now Rolls Royce showrooms.

11 - Sultan Ali Lakhani & family Pakistan

Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

The Lakhanis are currently having a hard time at the hands of NAB. Sultan Lakhani and his three brothers run this prestigious group and the chain of McDonald's restaurants in Pakistan. NAB has alleged the Lakhanis of having created phoney companies through worthless directors and raised massive loans from various banks and financial institutions. Sultan is currently abroad after having served a jail term with younger sibling Amin, though the latter was released much earlier. NAB had reportedly demanded Rs 7 billion from Lakhanis, but later agreed they pay only Rs 1.5 billion over a 10-year period. Lakhanis, like their arch-rivals Hashwanis, are the most well-known of all Ismaeli tycoons. Their stakes range from media, tobacco, paper, chemicals and surgical equipment to cotton, packaging, insurance, detergents and other house-hold items, many of which are joint ventures with leading international conglomerates. Though Lakhanis are in turbulent waters currently, the success that greeted them during the last 25 years especially has been tremendous. They have rifts with large business empires despite being known fur their genteel nature. Whether it is any government in Sindh or at the Federal level, Lakhanis have had trusted friends everywhere, though the present era has proved a painful exception.

12 - Malik Riaz Hussain Pakistan

Ranking: 9 (tied at 9) Worth: £400m ($800) Industry: Businessman

Malik Riaz Hussain heads the massive project which is currently developing state-of-the-art schemes in Lahore, Karachi and Rawalpindi/Islamabad. Emerging out of the blue, this developer has reportedly developed tremendous connections where it matters in Pakistan-One of the few reasons why his constructed projects get completed in time without hindrance. Whether he has gifted bungalows free of cost of country's bigwigs or offered them at highly concessional rates, the reality on the ground is that Malik has managed to mesmerize most through his generous wallet. His land-holdings both within and outside Pakistan amounts to nearly a billion dollar. He is the man behind the Bahria Town. Irrespective of who is in power; he continues to build house after house-swelling his wealth. He is also the first man to drive a Bentley car on Pakistani soil.

13 - Sheikh Abid Hussain alias Seth Abid Pakistan

Ranking: 10 Worth: £390m ($780) Industry: Businessman

Sheikh Abid Hussain alias Seth Abid. He is one of the most resourceful developers/builders in the country owning vast stretches of land in major cities. On this land worth many billion of rupees, Seth has constructed residential schemes under the brand name of "Green Fort." Seth came into this business after decades of notoriety as being one of the spearheads in cross-border smuggling. While many remember Seth for his allegedly illegal trading stints, a lot of informed circles still say with conviction that he, along with Dr.Qadeer and former Premier Bhutto, was the brain behind the success of Pakistan's nuclear programme. About three dozen of Seth's very close relatives, friends and nephews are members of country's bourses and for many years now, the Seth Abid group assumes the role of king-makers during the annual polls of these stock exchanges. He is a leading investor in stocks, metals and currency but what gives him immense pleasure is his philanthropic institution Hamza Foundation that he sponsors for the welfare of deaf and dumb children. Pakistan has not had a single ruler, politician, bureaucrat or Army General who doesn't know the Seth who is more of a myth for most. The Seth, throughout his life, has avoided publicity-a fact known to most journalists.

14 - Mian Mohammed Latif Pakistan

Ranking:11 Worth: £350m ($700) Industry: Businessman

Chenab Group Mian Muhammad Latif supervises this group along with his brother Mian Ashfaque- a legislator in the National Assembly of Pakistan. Founded in 1975, Chenab Limited set up its first fashion outlet "Chen One." Chen One has seven outlets throughout Pakistan. After establishing its retail chain stores in various cities of Saudi Arabia, the group is now planning to establish its new retail chains in Bahrain, UA.E, Qatar, Kuwait and Central Asian Republics. While Chenab Group is an eight-time Export Trophy winner, its Chief Mian Latif has won the 'Businessman of the Year award on four different occasions from various business bodies. Chenab is principally engaged in manufacture and distribution of clothing, furniture goods, including non-iron suit, quilt cover and curtains etc. Chenab processes 50 million square metres fabric weaving and 75 million square metres fabric dyeing every year and has established a global sales network spanning across five continents. Chenab is licensed to the Swedish Texcote Technology in the manufacturing and sale of textile materials, garments and textile house-hold goods. The group's textile products have been awarded the Oekotex 100 accreditation.

15 - Haji Abdul Ghafoor & Haji Bashir Ahmed Pakistan

Ranking: 12 Worth: £330m ($660) Industry: Businessman

Sitara Group Started its activity with textile weaving as early as 1956, under brothers Haji Abdul Ghafoor and Haji Bashir Ahmed. It is now its textile cloth finishing and processing, textile spinning, chlor-alkali sector and in power generation. The units owned by this establishment include Sitara Chemicals, Sitara Chemicals (Textile Division 1) and Sitara Chemicals (Textile Division 11), Sitara Textiles, Sitara Energy and Yasir Spinning. The charities being managed under the aegis of Sitara group are Aziz Fatima Hospital, Ghafoor Bashir Children Hospital and Aziz Fatima Girls School. Sitara's name with the industrial City of Faisalabad is synonymous. They are the decades-old veterans in business, who have excelled in leaps and bounds. At their units, the owners of Sitara use technology imported from Japan, UK and Germany and are export leaders in bedding and fabric collection to South America, USA, Canada, New Zealand and Europe. Their textile divisions together operate at strength of 33,984 spindles. The Sitara (group, to a common man, is more famous for its lawn brands like Sitara Sapna and Mughal-e-Azam. The men at helm of affairs in Sitara hardly believe in setting up dozens of units, of which they are otherwise very much capable of.

16 - Sheikhani Family Pakistan

Ranking: 13 Worth: £300m ($600) Industry: Businessman

They are one of the most reputed land developers in the country. The Sheikhani, although not a very big industrial establishment by any means, are led by Abu Bakar Sheikhani. The Sheikhanis are famous for their construction and land development-related errands. Abu Bakar is deemed to be one of the largest investors in real estate trade at Gwadar Port. He has all the right connections that are required to be in such business. Despite being well known to the national political circles, the man in street knew more of him during March/April 1991 when he surfaced as the single largest contributor to then Premier Nawaz Sharif's Debt Retirement Fund with a donation of $ 8million. Today, his adversaries dub him a land mafia man, alleging him for selling his Gwadar land at only $ 4000 per acre only to senior Army officials while the same was being sold at $ 2,50,000 per acre to ordinary investors. But that is the way Sheikhani runs his vast land/construction empire. Accusations don't disturb Sheikhani, who according to many large developers is a man who has managed to create tremendous impression in land business. The rumours of his landing in any Pakistani City for land acquisition purposes, helps the price of real estate surge unprecedented overnight

17 - Razzaq Dawood Pakistan/UAE

Ranking: 14 (tied at 14) Worth: £250m ($500) Industry: Businessman

Razzaq presently heads one of Pakistan's biggest construction and engineering conglomerate know as Dawood group/Descen group. With a roaster of impressive clients. His group has won many contracts in Dubai, Saudi Arabia and Iraq and employ's over 1,000 people directly. His name was more prominent among the top 22 richest families in 1970 until the Bhutto nationalization which then made him set up abroad, he returned to Pakistan in the early 90's and started from scratch and today makes it in the top easily. The group also has investment of $300m in Bangladesh in investments in fertiliser, energy and infrastructure and development sectors.

18 - Byram Dinshawji Avari Pakistan

Ranking: 14 (tied at 14) Worth: £250m ($500) Industry: Businessman

Byram Dinshawji Avari is a prominent Pakistani Parsi tycoon in Karachi, Sindh, Pakistan. Together with his sons Dinshaw and Xerxes and their direct families, he owns and operates the Avari Group of companies, of which he is the chairman. Hotel management is the Avari Group's core business. In Pakistan, the group owns and operates Avari Hotels which includes 5-star deluxe hotel in Lahore, the 5-star Avari Towers and the seafront Beach Luxury Hotel in Karachi. The group is also actively pursuing opportunities for owning and/or managing 3 and 4-star properties elsewhere in Pakistan. The Avari Group is the first Pakistani company to have obtained international hotel management contracts: they operate the 200-room 4-star hotel in Dubai in United Arab Emirates and manage the 200-room Ramada Inn in Toronto at Pearson Airport in Canada.

19 - Rafiq Rangoonwala Pakistan

Ranking: 15 (tied at 14) Worth: £240m ($480) Industry: Businessman

Mr. Rafiq Rangoonwala, Chief Executive Officer Cupola Group of Companies, was born in Karachi, did BA (Hons.) from University of Karachi, went to United States of America in 1979, and did Executive Development Course from Whittemore School of Business, University of New Hampshire along with several management courses from U.K, U.S, Canada, Australia and Singapore. In 1980, he started his career in Fast Food restaurants from KFC in Houston. Since then he has managed several other brands alongside KFC like Pizza Hut, Harry Ramsden's, TGI Fridays, Pizza Express etc. e joined Artal Restaurants International as CEO in October 1999 and is currently heading Cupola Group of Companies who has franchise rights in Pakistan for KFC, Indulge, Freshens and Casa. The associate Investment Company of Cupola is AL ABRAJ, with approximately US $400 million under management.

20 - Shimmy Querishi USA

Ranking: 15 (tied at 15) Worth: £240m ($480) Industry: Businessman

A jet-setting international businessman who fly's by jet and swings a polo mallet with some of the world's top players, Qureshi seems a model of successful enterprise. Shimmys business interests are mainly property, which with the boom and his holidings has took his wealth to a new level. Although people may remember him for his stunt in the early 90's with George Lindemann, the billionaire founder of Cellular One, when Lindemann took him to court claiming he has cheated them in to a deal to buy their home on Hurlingham Drive in Wellington for $3.5 million. A year before the Lindemanns filed their suit, Qureshi bartered with another wealthy family - the al-Thanis, who rule the Arab country of Qatar - to buy Gulf Union Bank in the Cayman Islands.
In May 1997, the al-Thanis agreed to sell Gulf Union to International Business Holdings - a Cayman Islands company owned by Qureshi - for $4.5 million, according to court records.

While Cayman Islands officials were reviewing the deal, Qureshi named an associate, Kazmi, to run Gulf Union and a subsidiary, First Cayman Bank. Within three months, Kazmi, acting at Qureshi's direction, had shunted more than $5 million from First Cayman into his own account and into accounts held by Qureshi and the al-Thanis. Shimmy Qureshi also fully manages all the properties in the USA owned by Asif Zardari.

21 - Faruque Khan Pakistan

Ranking:15 (tied at 15) Worth: £240m ($480) Industry: Businessman

The late Khan Bahadur Ghulam Faruque Khan (1899–1992) was a politician and industrialist of Pakistan. He belonged to the village Shaidu in Nowshera District, Nowshera is the home of the famous Pashtun Tribe the Khattaks of the NWFP Province in Pakistan. Because of his contribution to Pakistan's Industrial development he is sometimes described as "The Goliath who Industrialized Pakistan., today his family own Cherat Cement Company Ltd. Cherat Papersack Ltd. Cherat Electric Ltd. Mirpurkhas Sugar Mills Ltd. Faruque (pvt) Ltd Greaves Air-Conditioning(pvt) Ltd Greaves Engineering Services(pvt) Ltd Unicol Ltd.- A JV Company Madian Hydro Power Ltd. - A JV Company Zensoft (pvt) Ltd and prime properties around Pakistan

22 - Shahid Luqman UK

Ranking: 16 (tied at 16) Worth: £230m ($460) Industry: Businessman

Shahid Luqman, born in Gujrat, is a financier from Manchester and has founded 'Pearl Holdings' for the property finance market He is a prominent property developer in the UK and in Pakistan is projects run into multi-million pounds. He also runs a loan facility. Although in the past it has been noticed of him filling bankruptcy and pocketing huge unpaid loans.

23 - Mukhtar Ahmed Pakistan

Ranking: 16 (tied at 16) Worth: £230m ($460) Industry: Businessman

Late Haji Sheikh Mohammad Ibrahim, founder of the Ibrahim Group, settled in Faisalabad after partition of India in 1947 and re-established his ancestral business of cloth trading by the name of "Ibrahim Agencies". What is known in business today as Ibrahim Group with diversified business interests from Spinning to PSF, Financial Institutions to Banking and Energy, started off as a mere cloth trading agency just half a century ago. Recently Mr Ahmed bought a stake in the Allied Bank at $300m.

24 - Aqeel Karim Dhedi Pakistan

Ranking: 16 (tied at 16) Worth: £230m ($460) Industry: Businessman

Starting from interests in real estate and stock-broking in the year 1947, the late Haji Abdul Karim Dhedhi (may he rest in peace) laid the foundation of what today is the AKD group of companies, one of the largest domestic business enterprises in Pakistan with a combined net worth of over US$ 1 billion, of which Mr Karim share is at $400m. Mr. Aqeel Karim Dhedhi, son of (late) Haji Abdul Karim Dhedhi, is the Chairman of the AKD Group. He has built the AKD Group as a leading and vibrant set of business enterprises operating in key sectors of Pakistan's economy, ranging from stocks and shares, media, textile, real estate and Oil and Gas exlporation. Yet AKD is still on the move!

25 - Syed Family Pakistan

Ranking: 17 (tied at 17) Worth: £220m ($440) Industry: Businessman

Listed on all three stock exchanges in Pakistan, Packages Limited has maintained a long-time credit rating of AA. The joint ventures and business alliances with some of the world's biggest names reflect our forward-looking strategy of continuously improving customer value through improvements in productivity. The group also acquired a good number of Coca Cola plants in Pakistan. Its famous brands include Nestle Milk Pak, Treet, Mitchells and Tri Pack Films. It has stakes in the textile, dairy, agriculture and rice sectors too. The group's contributions towards the cause of an independent Pakistan are unprecedented are the only packaging facility in Pakistan offering a complete range of packaging solutions including offset printed cartons, shipping containers and flexible packaging materials to individuals and businesses world-wide. They employ over 4000 people.

26 - Saif Family Pakistan

Ranking: 17 (tied at 17) Worth: £220m ($440) Industry: Businessman

Is owned and operated by the sons of famous NWFP lady politician Begum Kalsum Saifullah. Her eldest son Javid Saifullah heads this very powerful business group. Javid obtained his Master degree in Business Administration from the University of Pittsburgh, USA in 1973, followed by diversified experience of over 30 years in textiles, telecommunication, cement and Information Technology. He also remained the Chairman of All Pakistan Textile Mills Association (APTMA) for two years and NWFP for seven years. He has also been the member Task Force IT & Telecommunication Advisory Board, Ministry of Science and Technology, Member of Task Force (Liberalization & Privatization of Pakistan Telecommunication Company Limited), Ministry of Science & Technology) Javed Saifullah Khan is looking after the group businesses for the past 20 years. Saifullahs are in power always, in one form or the other. Javaid's brothers Anwar Saifullah Khan (Former Federal Minister), Salim Saifullah Khan (king-maker in NWFP polities) and Osman Saifullah (another APTMA & wizard) have very close family ties with a lot of key politicians in the country, besides being related directly or indirectly through marriages to the families of a few leading and famous Army Generals who ruled Pakistan.

27 - Jehangir Elahi Pakistan

Ranking: 18 (tied at 18) Worth: £200m ($400) Industry: Businessman

Jehangir Elahi is brother in law of Mian Mohammad Mansha and is ranked among the tycoons in Pakistan. He has launched several projects as joint ventures with Mian Mohammad Mansha, as for example Genertech, one of the earliest private sector power plants conceived in Pakistan. Independently his group has four companies listed on the stock exchange.

28 - Sherazi Family Pakistan

Ranking: 18 (tied at 18) Worth: £200m ($400) Industry: Businessman

This group was founded by Yousaf Sherazi, a former Income Tax official and journalist in 1962 with a capital of Rs 03 million only. The first company set by the Atlas Group was Sherazi Investments (Pvt) Limited and since then, there is no looking back. The East Pakistan tragedy, however, nearly crippled Sherazi but he never lost hope and went out forming numerous joint ventures with leading Japanese concerns like Honda. Atlas-Honda today is a name to reckon with in country's engineering sector and associated with this just one name are hundreds of vendors. He holds stakes in insurance, financial services, information technology, leasing, warehouses, office equipment, motor cars and motorcycle-assembling units, besides running a renowned firm that manufactures batteries. Sherazi owns the Atlas Investment Bank too. The Federal Budget 2004-05 is perhaps the only budget in country's history that has hit the very influential car manufacturers on the head, otherwise people like Yousaf Sherazi have always managed to dictate terms where it matters. The Atlas Group owns no less than seven companies quoted on the stock exchanges of Pakistan. The group's assets are believed to have touched the hundreds of millions dollars mark and so have the sales.

29 - Noon family Pakistan

Ranking: 19 Worth: £190m ($380m) Industry: Businessman

Noon family comes from Tiwana family from Mitha Tiwana. The Tiwana family lives in an old historical village in Khushab district. The Tiwana caste is a very popular landholding and influential political caste in the Khushab district. The Noon Family own 27 villages in Bhalwal and Bhera. The fields of these villages are very cultivated and fertile. The Landlord Noon family created many bankers, industrialists, ambassadors and politicians for Pakistan. The Noon family is very popular in the area because of their character , their attitude,their behaviour with the people and helps the poor and needy people in the area without any prejudice so Noon family is very well-wisher,well-behaved ,sympathetic with the area. On their land they own over 40 factories on total ranging from brick manufacturing to cotton farms and production. They are a tax paying landlords for this reason they are the only feudal lords including in this edition.

30 - Mian Abdullah Pakistan

Ranking: 19 Worth: £190m ($380m) Industry: Businessman

One of the largest manufacturers and exporters of textile products in Pakistan, Sapphire technology comes from Europe, Japan and USA. Capitalizing on the region's principal crop, cotton, we source this locally, and augment our offerings by providing imported fiber from the world's best crops. We work with specialized fibers bringing in the newest innovations from major fiber and chemical producers, and our manufacturing from yarn to finished fabric is performed in our facilities in Pakistan. Synergies are formed with offshore garment manufacturing companies. Our products are marketed to the industry's biggest names in Asia, Europe, Australia, and North America. Over 14,000 employees ,Annual turnover US $ 500 Million

Headed by a veteran industrialist Mian Abdullah, this splendid empire owns 11 yarn spinning plants (producing 60,000 tonnes of yarn annually), 3 woven plants of greige fabric ( producing 50 million metres annually), one yarn dyeing plant (capacity 5 tonnes per day), one knitting unit (10 tonnes per day), one knitted fabric dyeing plant (10 tonnes per day), one woven fabric dyeing and finishing plant ( 1.2 million metres per month) and three power plants having the capability to produce 40 MW of energy. Sapphire forms synergies with off-shore garments companies. The group markets its products in biggest brand names in Asia, Europe, Australia and North America. Sapphire started with one spinning mill in 1969 and employs over 10,000 people. Mian Abdullah's repute can be gauged from the fact during the October 2003 minis at APTMA, more than 1000 textile millers bad tendered their resignations against incumbent Chief Waqar Monnoo to him. Dozens of leading tycoons had proposed his name to head APTMA in case of an interim setup. Having an influence among textile millers is no easy job but Mian Abdullah stands privileged in this context He is often seen part of the entourages of key business leaders to foreign countries and provides input to fellow colleagues whenever requested.

31 - Shahzad Family Pakistan

Ranking: 20 (tied at 20) Worth: £170m ($340m) Industry: Businessman

Shahzad Group is a reputable name which takes pride in being identified as a beacon of business development involved in almost all avenues of Nation building activities i.e. Energy, Communications, Minerals, Construction, Geophysical survey, Security and many other ventures. Shahzad Group has , by itself, and in some cases in collaboration with foreign and local partners, who are the leading brand names in the world, identified, initiated, supervised and successfully completed major business ventures. Shahzad Group prides itself for its accomplishments during almost three decades of business activity. The Group has actively participated in enhancing Pakistan's international competitiveness and social development, and for promotion of foreign and domestic investment in business ventures. It takes pride in delivering quality products, solutions and services that obtain a competitive advantage over others.

The Group is a wholly owned Pakistani establishment with offices in Calgary (Canada), Houston (USA), London, Kuwait, Beijing and Singapore, with a strong presence in various other metropolises all over the world. Shahzad International Group of Companies,Oil and Gas,Gold and Minerals Mining,Geological surveys,Defence supplies,Travel and Tour Operators,Flash security services and Trading Worldwide.

32 - Nazir Family Pakistan

Ranking: 20 (tied at 20) Worth: £170m ($340m) Industry: Businessman

One of Faislalabads most prominent families is the Haji Nair family. Owning Masoos textiles, Mahmood Textiles, Asim Textiles and power generation plants. Son of Mr Nazir Shahid Nazir is also a prominent politician.

33 - Abdul Bhati UK

Ranking: 21 (tied at 21) Worth: £150m ($300m) Industry: Businessman

Bhatti, 71, is a director of London-based wholesaler Bestway, which saw profits up 27% in 2005-06 at £73m on a turnover up 26% at £1.7 billion. Bhatti and his family have a stake worth £140m as well as other assets.

34 - Adalat Chaudhary UK

Ranking: 21 (tied at 21) Worth: £150m ($300m) Industry: Businessman

Director of the London-based Bestway cash-and-carry business established by Sir Anwar Pervez.

35 - Younis Sheikh UK

Ranking: 21 (tied at 21) Worth: £150m ($300m) Industry: Businessman

Bestway director Sheikh, 70, London cash-and-carry business Bestway continues to thrive.

36 - Chaudrey Zameer UK

Ranking: 21 (tied at 21) Worth: £150m ($300m) Industry: Businessman

Finance director of the London-based Bestway cash-and-carry business started in 1976 by Anwar Pervez . In 2004 Pervez stepped down as managing director, Choudrey took over. In 2005-06 Bestway profits rose 27% at £73m on turnover up 26% at £1.7 billion. Choudrey and his family have a 10.1% stake. They also own 70% of the Buybest supermarket chain in UK

37 - Zafar Iqbal Khwaja Pakistan

Ranking: 21 (tied at 21) Worth: £150m ($300m) Industry: Businessman

Zafar Iqbal Khawaja (born January 3rd, 1952) is a prominent Pakistani businessman who owns a number of companies around the world. He is better known in Pakistan as the "Prince of Sargodha". Also referred to as the "Shaheen of Sargodha" (The Eagle of Sargodha). Zafar Iqbal Khawaja, is the son of a significant military commando Muhammed Sadiq Khawaja, who worked with Muhammed Ali Jinnah (The Founder of Pakistan) during the 1947 partition of India and Pakistan. Zafar Iqbal Khawaja is most widely known as the Managing Director of a multi-million dollar company called Inter Equipment. It's Head Quarters are located at the Jebal Ali Free Zone, Dubai which is a recognized commercial capital of the Middle-East. In Mr.Khawaja's business circle, he is known for his commitment to honest work and his ethical manner of business. Within 15 years, he has developed himself from a fresh college graduate, into a business tycoon. Currently, he is in the process of writing an auto-biography describing his success story. This auto-biography would be a must-read for any business-person pursuing major success.

38 - Shahid Hussain Pakistan

Ranking: 22 (tied at 22) Worth: £130m ($260m) Industry: Businessman

With more than 325 retail outlets and 13 wholesale depots, Service Sales Corporation (Pvt.) Limited is the leading retail and wholesale company in Pakistan with annual sales $300m. The Company has established some of Pakistan's leading footwear brands including DON CARLOS, CHEETAH, SKOOZ, TOZ and LIZA and has distribution agreements with CATERPILLAR and NIKE. As part of our growth strategy, we have expanded our businesses to include Service Communications, Shoe Planet (Pvt.) Limited and Soul Collections.

39 - Younis Brothers Pakistan

Ranking: 22 (tied at 22) Worth: £130m ($260m) Industry: Businessman

Yunus Brothers is actively involved in international trading of various products including Cotton & Blended Yarn, Cotton & Blended Fabrics, Garments, Rice, Sugar, Fertilizer, Earth moving equipments, Chemicals, Spare Parts and Automotive Vehicles etc. Yunus Brothers is one of the largest export houses of the Pakistan exporting mainly to the European, US, Far Eastern, Middle Eastern and African markets. Yunus Brother's annual sales turnover exceeds USD 300/- million with 95% of the sales geared towards the export markets.

40 - Ghani Family Pakistan

Ranking: 22 (tied at 22) Worth: £130m ($260m) Industry: Businessman

Abdul Ghani Dada Bhoy was the founder of Dada Bhoy group, starting in trade and branching off into the construction business. The group has a big share of cement market in Southern Pakistan. Like other Memon groups, Dad Bhoys are closely linked through intermarriages with other leading families like Jaffer and Bawany. Abdul Ghani Dada Bhoy had five sons and two daughters, namely Noor Mohammad Dada Bhoy, Mohammad Farooq Dada Bhoy, Mohammad Hussain Dada Bhoy, Abdullah Hussain Dada Bhoy and Ghulam Mohammad Dada Bhoy. Daughters are Mrs Mehrunisa Jaffer and Mrs Zaibunisa Tanveer .

41 - Saddiq & Sons Pakistan

Ranking: 22 (tied at 22) Worth: £130m ($260m) Industry: Businessman

This group made the bulk of its fortune during the chief ministership and premiership of Nawaz Sharif when the group was sold Pasrur Sugar Mills for a token price of Rs one and its Chairman, Mohammad Saleem was appointed managing director of National Development Leasing Corporation (NDLC) replacing Rafiq Habib. Today the have invested huge amounts in prime properties around Pakistan.

42 - Afzal Kushi UK

Ranking: 23 (tied at 23) Worth: £120m ($240m) Industry: Businessman

Afzal Khushi, 51, managing director of Jacobs & Turner, last year received a CBE for services to business in Scotland. He and his brother, Akmal, 50, have made the £90m Glasgow sportswear firm a global business. They also have £30 other assets.

43 - Ghulam Hassan Khan Pakistan

Ranking: 23 (tied at 23) Worth: £120m ($240m) Industry: Businessman

The SK group of companies shares a set of five core values: integrity, adaptability, excellence, unity and responsibility. These values, which have been part of the SK Group's beliefs and convictions from its earliest days, continue to guide and drive the business decisions of SK companies. The SK Group and its enterprises have been steadfast and distinctive in their adherence to business ethics and their commitment to corporate social responsibility. This is a legacy that has earned the SK Group the trust of many thousand of stakeholders The SK Group comprises of six operating companies in following business segments: Information technology, Real estate, Developer and Builders, Media, Welfare, Import and exports and CNG stations. The SK Group was founded by Sardar Gulam Hassan Khan Niazi in the mid 1980's. Sardar Khan Niazi and those who followed him aligned business opportunities with the objective of nation building. This approach remains enshrined in the SK Group's ethos to this day. Rose Shopping Mall
Companies owned by the family today: Paradise City, SK Trading, DUBAI Gasco 2000, chain of CNG stations SK Constructions , rose club, SK plazaz, Chuna Pa chain fast food chinese., SKN tust and sk farms.

44 - Kasim Dada Pakistan

Ranking: 24 Worth: £100m ($200m) Industry: Businessman

Kasim hails from a 19th Century Memon business family known to have possessed the vision of international trade when most of their contemporaries were rather naïve on this count. This family had offices in Burma, South Africa and countries of the Far-East long before 1940. Dadas, have held decisive positions at the Karachi Stock Exchange and own shares of various Pakistani and foreign monopolies without creating any hype. Kassim Dada's family is known to have held major local equity in multinationals like Glaxo SmithKline, Brook Bond and Berger Paints, besides being the sponsoring directors of Messrs Hyderabad Electronics, Automotive Battery Limited and Interfund Bank etc. Kassim Dada is one of the few Pakistani Tycoons who used to fly on private planes from Karachi to hit cement plants in Hyderabad. It was this family which had hired Mahatama Gandhi as a solicitor in 1890 to contest a business case in South Africa. Dada, was once a symbol of wealth. Had his assets not been nationalised by Bhutto he would definitely had the status many richest men in the world enjoy today.

[RajeshA]

^ Could the recent undoing of "enemy properties act" by MMS govt a step in that direction???

Can't say, but it is definitely an issue that needs to be kept under observation.

Paki rich families were the ones who funded/promoted separate pakiness program all along using the unwashed as cannon fodder. I really do not like the idea of giving them any space in shaping this area.

Those rich families have also seen, what has become of their Pakistan! Should these families take out their money from Pakistan, Pakistan would go broke. If India is in favor of accelerating the failure of Pakistan, then economic collapse should definitely be a top priority, and these families could hold the key.

Let Taliban take over Pakistan and let them bringdown the whole place. It is better for India to offer peanuts to common abduls when they lose everything that is worth mentioning and build it from bottom...

JMHT...

This process however can be accelerated!

[RajeshG]

Shiv

What do we want?

There are many things that i disagree with in your post. But I think the disagreements are mainly because how we see pakistan. For eg it would not be correct to say India has not "taken down" pakistan. Alhamdulillah, it was divided into 2. And still it 'survived'. What is this "it" that survived ? The "core" survived, you say. What is this "core" ? Did this "core" exist before 47 ? 39 ? 1909 ? And yet this entity, this idea, this most contagious virus came into being. The way i see it - that idea, that most contagious virus (TNT) is the "core" of this Islamic nation.

Also (again might be a diff of 19-20 but) perhaps we need to stop talking about Islamism taking over Pakistan as if they are 2 different entities. Islamism seems to be an instinct of Pakistan. Can you separate the two ? I dont know.

So what do i want ? I want that idea to fail.

What can we do to make this virus fail ? I dont know, to be honest. Perhaps we cannot MAKE it fail or cant/shouldnt be seen making it fail. The failure perhaps has to be swayambhu. Maybe this is what Kao Sir was talking about when he said Pakistan needs to be left to stew in her own juices ?

[Manishw]

Cross posting from the naval thread and selectively Quoting Philip ji hoping he doesnt mind

Philip wrote
In the context of the IOR,India can also adopt against a PLAN carrier task force similar tactics.We already have our own naval ballistic missile in service Dhanush.Though the method of launching Dhanush is rather impratical,using our OPVs,Dhanush exists and "can be used if need be",a quote some time ago.I have stressed several times that we have an "unsinkable carrier",INS India-our landmass that juts into the IOR like a dagger.The IN/armed forces should also possess a large quantity of long range ballistic missiles plus supersonic/hypersonic anti-ship missiles like Brahmos,to deal with any major carrier task force with anti-Indian intentions.Given the weakness of the Paki state,it is most likelty that the Paki landmass will eventually be used by the PRC.In fact,as Pak sinks beneath the waves of anarchy,the PRC will one day be called upon by the Paki military to rescue it and there is nothing that we will be able to do to stop this from happening.The GOI/IN must plan for a military takeover of the Paki landmass as a contingency.The first move will be when the US exits Afghanistan,where we will see the PRC attempting to replace it immediately through mineral mining contracts which in fact will allow them to move in tens of thousands of Chinese "workers".


Just wanted to add that Philip Ji is right on the mark and We will have to move in quickly if america were to exit afghanistan.

[Lalmohan]

I dont see PRC physically intervening in an actively imploding pakistan, infact no one will, its too messy and dangerous and is best left to burn itself out. ORC will certainly come to grab its share of the choice morsels of the carcass afterwards (karakorum related) and probably offer big brother taller/deeper deals to the survivor states

[Manishw]

^^^ Lalmohan Ji What you said might be correct but I guess you misunderstood me/or I did not put correctly what I wanted to convey.What I want to emphasize is that we have to be prepared for any eventuality since this implosion can take many forms and a slow motion one would involve the PRC.

[shiv]

There are many things that i disagree with in your post. But I think the disagreements are mainly because how we see pakistan. For eg it would not be correct to say India has not "taken down" pakistan. Alhamdulillah, it was divided into 2. And still it 'survived'. What is this "it" that survived ? The "core" survived, you say. What is this "core" ? Did this "core" exist before 47 ? 39 ? 1909 ? And yet this entity, this idea, this most contagious virus came into being. The way i see it - that idea, that most contagious virus (TNT) is the "core" of this Islamic nation.

Also (again might be a diff of 19-20 but) perhaps we need to stop talking about Islamism taking over Pakistan as if they are 2 different entities. Islamism seems to be an instinct of Pakistan. Can you separate the two ? I dont know.

Rajesh the comment about taking Pakistan down should be read in its correct context. The definition of "Taking down" is a definition that exists in the heads of the Paki establishment. If they exist, Pakistan exists. Their survival is Pakistan's survival. My exact words were as follows:

The attitude taken by the Paki nationalist establishment is as follows:

If the two nation theory was wrong, and if Pakistan should not have existed, then India needs to take Pakistan down. As long as India is unable to take Pakistan down, Pakistan and Pakistaniyat is the truth, and India is wrong.

Technically the "idea of Pakistan" is not the same as Islam. Islam existed before Pakistan and will continue to exist even if Pakistan disappears. It is the latter possibility that the Paki establishment are concerned with in my view. And the Paki establishment have ensured their own survival as described in my post.

In my view - the survival of the idea of Pakistan has become so difficult that they have had to tie it up with Islam. This "tying up" of the idea of Pakistan with Islam has happened in the post Zia phase.

Pakistan itself was created for the Muslims of the subcontinent. If Muslim interests were looked after Islam would thrive automatically. Islam was not in danger in 1947. Muslims were thought to be in danger and Pakistan was a victory for some Muslims. But gradually - as Pakistan failed, and especially after the 1971 war Islam itself was stated to be in danger. A failure of Pakistan was linked up with failure of Islam. That is why jihad and the Pakistani state have become one. The fight for Pakistan has been converted into a fight for Islam.

The reason I am stating things in this way is that it gives (to me) a better picture of what is happening in Pakistan. In 1965 and 1971, the Pakistani army and establishment did not need jihad and Islamists to fight India. The people who fought were admired and feted in the west as moderates and the Pakistani army has actually been called a "secular army". In other words no matter how much you or I try to point out the Pakistan was always islamist, their outward behavior satisfied its 3.5 friends that here was a moderate secular army fighting Hindu fundamentalists.

After 1971, when they discovered that Pakistan was not having its way in the world - especially with India, the idea of Pakistan was tied up with the survival of Islam.

This worked for a while. The Pakistan army continued to remain beardless and appear "moderate and secular", while the actual fighting (in J&K and Kargil) was ostensibly done by "mujahiddeen". At this stage the difference between the Pakistani army and its mujahiddeen was in name only. The Paki army continued to appear moderate and secular while the muj did the job of fighting India to save the idea of Pakistan.

I see Pakistan as having moved one step beyond that now. With the tying up of the idea of Pakistan with the survival of Islam, there has been a fusion of the idea of Pakistan with the Islamist fighters for Islam whose agenda extends beyond India to Israel and the US. The so called "core establishment" of Pakistan is no longer able to keep the war focused on India. The fusion of "Pakistan in danger" with "Islam in danger" has expanded the war to make new enemies for the Paki army. The Paki army is now supposed to fight (or not cooperate and show resistance against) the US while the Islamists promise help with fighting India.

But for the Paki establishment - fighting the US was never ever on the agenda. The US is part of the 3.5 and the "Idea of Pakistan" was to fight India, and nothing else. But that is not true of the Islamists who can choose to fight whom they want. And there are those who will fight both India and the US because Islamists must do that. And the Pakistan army is being put under pressure by the Islamists to take their side and by the US to take their side.

No matter which side they take, they will come under attack from the other party and in any case India stands opposed to them whether they are pro-US or anti US. I have stated in an earlier post that the Pakistani army can escape a lot of trouble by making peace with India. But they will not do that and that leaves them (the Paki army) with only two choices:

1) Convert the Pakistan army into an army of Islam that fights a global jihad versus the US, Israel and India
or

2) Keep trying to toe the US line. Fight or make deals with Islamists ("bad Taliban") to try and stop attacking the US while they get aid and support to fight India.

Which choice is better for India?

[brihaspati]

We are assuming that the PA is a monolithic body. Its different ranks and membership are likely to be coming from different social strata, and from different age groups. The younger recruits are likely to have had greater exposure to politically radical Islam that also claims supremacy over the "secular" state.

Why do we rule out a reflection of the larger contradictions and conflict within Pak society of urban-rural, feudal-serf, intermediate classes torn between collaboration with elite and independent dawaist Islamists, etc., intensifying within the PA itself?

The younger-lower-rural recruits may actually swing to the Islamists while the elite commanders are left strung out wiggling like overturned beetles in between their manipulative posturing to all concerned. The main power of the elite in PA lies in their corresponding social control through the feudal-combined-industrial dominance over the economy and land.

Islamists trying to gain power will sooner or later target this very power relationship. In classic Pakiland fashion the elite will switch over almost overnight and turn champions of islamism to preserve their hold on land and power. After all they have been doing this probably for at least 2500 years of estimable history.

The only tactical problem will be the islamist demand to bite USA, which cuts off the pakgeld, and possible retribution. But both Islamists as well as pak-elite are astute enough not to do this based on Pak soil that much. So the compromise solution will be to go for shadow-warriors and deniability.

Pak elite-turned purer islamists +paktalebs+assorted militants will export terror to the neighbouring countries and encourage targeting of US and western+Indian+Israeli presence or interests there. Especially US interests in the entire CAR and ME will become targets. Which is a way out for Pak.

[Lalmohan]

shiv, as we have seen from pew report et al., pak-society is heading rapidly towards option 1., whilst the jarnails are holding on to option 2. this contradiction will bring about the soosai of pakistan...

also just as the 71 cyclone was a catalyst for protesting bad governance, the current floods might well be the crack in the dam that lets the headwaters burst for the last time

[ramana]

N.V. Subramanian writes:

Pakistan is headed for a Salafist-Wahhabi takeover after the Al-Qaeda/ Taliban win Afghanistan from the Americans..

Domino Effect

[Manishw]

also just as the 71 cyclone was a catalyst for protesting bad governance, the current floods might well be the crack in the dam that lets the headwaters burst for the last time

Amen

[RamaY]

^ The major difference between US's strategy in Af-Pak versus a potential Indian (and even PRC) strategy is that -

US and NATO are meddling in Af-Pak region to extend their influence and hurt other powers. On the other hand it would be a fight for survival for India/PRC (may Russia???), so the strategy and the acceptable price would be different. This is what NVS garu is saying here

...they will proclaim to the Islamic world as their victory, which perversely it will be too. After having expelled the Soviets and then the Americans, the Islamists will turn their attention to China, the last of the great powers to be vanquished, although it has no occupying role in Afghanistan...

US so far lost 2-3000 lives in Af-Pak region. This is nothing compared to the sacrifices (including civilians) India made during the same period. US may be valuing their lives more than Indian/Others lives. But it must be inconsequential to Indian strategists. Let US pay the price that is willing to pay.

A Salafist-Wahabi takeover of Pakistan may lead to death/suppression of islamic-minorities such as Shias, Ahmedis etc.., So be it! Let the "silent majority of ROP" decide whether they want to submit to this "interpretation" of their holy book or raise against this tyranny and rewrite their holy book so it will never happen again!!! India has no soup in it.

India should not recognize a salafist-wahabi Pakistan unless they hold control over the two holy places of Islam.

In fact, the sooner this scenario realizes the sooner PRC realizes its mistakes and come into the dharmic fold.

[Manishw]

^^^Ramay Ji, though I agree about all you have said but if the Islamists were to take on the PRC, the PRC would chew the Islamists into little pieces and throw them in the nearest gutter.
Even the Islamists know this.They will pick on somebody softer like India and then we will have a Mahabharat on our hands.
Just my 2 cents.

[Prem]

Gentle Folks, question about Perfidious Poak.
How many Shilkas does IA operate and can they be fired in diect mode like HMG in case Wagha get overwhelmed in 2032 by Pakthopian raison heads asking for Indian lingambu ?

[RamaY]

^^^Ramay Ji, though I agree about all you have said but if the Islamists were to take on the PRC, the PRC would chew the Islamists into little pieces and throw them in the nearest gutter.
Even the Islamists know this.They will pick on somebody softer like India and then we will have a Mahabharat on our hands.
Just my 2 cents.

Oh those were not my words... NVS garu says that the next step for AQ/Taliban would be PRC as they see it as the next duper power. All I said was "Tathastu"

It would be interesting to see Salafists take over Pakistan and start pushing Iran, KSA, PRC etc around. India is a small fish (or lotus) in this ocean of pakiness

[Manishw]

Oh those were not my words... NVS garu says that the next step for AQ/Taliban would be PRC as they see it as the next duper power. All I said was "Tathastu"

It would be interesting to see Salafists take over Pakistan and start pushing Iran, KSA, PRC etc around. India is a small fish (or lotus) in this ocean of pakiness

Oh! sorry for not being thorough before posting.Please accept my apologies.
TIA

[brihaspati]

Don't rely too much on PRC proving capable of chewing up Islamists if the Islamists decide that they no longer need PRC help. Or even better that they can take over some of the productive resources of PRC for themselves. The Chinese may prove excellent sneak peekers and chew up an unprepared dharmic nation hamstrung by a bombastic and fantasy driven leader. However they never really proved capable of defending against "barbarians".

The problem with facing up to Islamists is that all others are ham-strung by their self-imposed ethical values. Islamists are completely free of any such constraints - and by establishing this freedom as part of their religious faith [which others are then forced to accept because they have accepted the principle that no religion can be "demonized" unless that religion is one particular one from India] - they kill, murder, break Geneva convention, abuse, torture, rape, commit genocide - but are never, ever tried by international courts of law.

Almost each and every leader of the so called state of Pakistan, its military commanders and heads of state - would be prime candidates to be tried for war-crimes and crimes against humanity. But Serb leaders can be tried, any Indian gov that even makes collateral damage on any Islamic population will perhaps be treated so - but Paki muslims, or Pashtun Muslims, are exempt. After all the genocides, rapes, mass murders they have committed - others shrink like violets and lilies because they accept the Islamist claim that it is all part of their religion.

This is their tactical advantage in any conflict and any war. If only IA delayed taking PA surrender and deputed the muktivahini to give them a reception - a lesson would have been learnt by Pakis. Pakis and islamists geta way every time because they never face a penalty in proportion to their crimes.

Do not think PRC a match in that regard. Communists come lower than Islamists in flexibility and ruthlessness - even the Soviets of NKVD-KGB experience bowed out.

[RamaY]

^ Bji

PRC is a new world and will not heed your SDRE advice. Some people prefer self-experience.

So let Bharat not worry about PRC. It has so many toilets to take care of in it's own house.

[brihaspati]

No, but strategically speaking - do we want new sources of resources to enhance their obnoxious lives to fall into Islamist hands? Do we allow any expansion in any form, people, territory, resources, economic development, access to military technology for Islamists? I personally don't. If it means shaking hands with factions of PLA or CPC, so be it [but not at the cost of shrinking territory of Bharat].

[Kamboja]

Almost each and every leader of the so called state of Pakistan, its military commanders and heads of state - would be prime candidates to be tried for war-crimes and crimes against humanity. But Serb leaders can be tried, any Indian gov that even makes collateral damage on any Islamic population will perhaps be treated so - but Paki muslims, or Pashtun Muslims, are exempt. After all the genocides, rapes, mass murders they have committed - others shrink like violets and lilies because they accept the Islamist claim that it is all part of their religion.

Butchering, raping and oppressing millions of Muslims is halal under one condition -- the oppressors also must be Muslim (the TFTA'r the better -- one must be as close to Arabs as possible). Thus Packees got away with genocide in Bangladesh, North Sudanese 'Arabs' are busy murdering South Sudanese 'non-Arabs', Turks and Iraqis massacre Kurds, etc. etc. etc. The biggest killers of Muslims are not Jews or 'Crusaders' or Hindus (LOL) but other Muslims. This doesn't bother Muslims though, as it is simply following the example of the time of the 'rightly' guided caliphs.

All this changes if a single kaffir is 'responsible' for the death/oppression/hurting H&D of a single member of the ummah -- then all hell breaks loose. It is INSUFFERABLE for a Muslim to suffer at the hands of a kaffir (for suffer read: be treated at par with). That is why Bosnia, Chechnya, Palestine, Iraq all attract the outrage of the Muslim world -- because it is not Muslims massacring other Muslims (that's A-OK) but filthy, pork-eating kaffirs!

No-one has the right to massacre Muslims except TFTAer Muslims. That is the rule.

[shiv]

We are assuming that the PA is a monolithic body. Its different ranks and membership are likely to be coming from different social strata, and from different age groups. The younger recruits are likely to have had greater exposure to politically radical Islam that also claims supremacy over the "secular" state. .

I believe the Pakistan army's success is the appearance of being monolthic. The corps(e) commanders apparently confer to show a united front. And each is in touch with the sentiment of the units below him. In fact this is precisely the reason why that other statement that you made earlier is likely to come true - i.e as the junior ranks become more Islamized, the seniors will toe the line and reach "consensus" on being more Islamic. The exact point at which an anti India "Pakistani nationalist" army becomes an "anti-kafir army of islam" may be difficult to tell from the outside - but if there is evidence of army involvement in anti West actions - that would serve as corroboration. Wikileaks serve as exactly that corroboration.

Pak elite-turned purer islamists +paktalebs+assorted militants will export terror to the neighbouring countries and encourage targeting of US and western+Indian+Israeli presence or interests there. Especially US interests in the entire CAR and ME will become targets. Which is a way out for Pak.

This is an interesting possibility. Ned to wait and see,

The other thing is whether the currently voluble/vociferous English writing elite on the internet who are hollering for change in Pakistan and who also claim to exert influence over Pakistanis can really make a difference.

[brihaspati]

shiv wrote
The other thing is whether the currently voluble/vociferous English writing elite on the internet who are hollering for change in Pakistan and who also claim to exert influence over Pakistanis can really make a difference.

Actually - what will they change into? What is left for them to try out? What can they really change given the options? I doubt that they can change anything.

They cannot have a functioning representative democracy like India, because they do not have a functioning middle class. They never really had, thanks to their theology of submission which translated into submission to ulema and feudals and therefore their democracy was stillborn.

They can go back to military junta rule. Which will only accelerate califatization. It will concentrate all militants on both sides of the army - outside and inside. At the moment the army can throw the baqra of the civilian facade to take the caning.

The only things not really tried so far is the Talebanization. Even that will perhaps not change things much at the ground level - it is already very much a cuckooland in the dearest Taleb sense.

All the while the basic class relations will not change and therefore it will be like the proverbial penguin island - where the more the things change, more they remain the same.

[SSridhar]

. . . - i.e as the junior ranks become more Islamized, the seniors will toe the line and reach "consensus" on being more Islamic. The exact point at which an anti India "Pakistani nationalist" army becomes an "anti-kafir army of islam" may be difficult to tell from the outside - but if there is evidence of army involvement in anti West actions - that would serve as corroboration. Wikileaks serve as exactly that corroboration.

I believe that the inflection point occurred long before. In c. 2000, the then DG ISID, Lt. Gen. Mahmoud Ahmed (himself a notorious Islamist radical), admitted to a Rand Corp. analyst that 15 to 16% of PA's officer corps (not foot soldiers) was radicalized Islamists. By all reasoning, that itself should have been a conservative estimate coming from a Pakistani Islamist general trying to conceal details. Circa 2000 was a relatively peaceful year as far as 'radical Islamism' went. Almost ten tumultuous years of high-octane Islamist activities involving PA, ISI, Taliban and the society in general have taken place in Pakistan since that admission by DG, ISID. Events like 9/11 which was euphoric for Islamist radicals, the supposed betrayal by Musharraf of Islamist cause and various assassination attempts on him by PA & PAF personnel, the summary execution of PA & PAF personnel for these attempts, the disastrous March 2004 PA operation in South Waziristan that led to the first 'Peace Accord' with the Taliban, the controversial Laal Masjid incident and its aftermath at Tarbela SSG HQ, and the attack on GHQ have been seminal events. The more audacious an attack, the more recruits that attacking Islamist unit wins. One can therefore easily imagine how quickly the Islamist virus would have spread among the officer corps. In July 2009, the fundamentalist Hizb-ut-Tahrir (HuT) announced that four Pakistani Army officers sent to Sandhurst for military training had been ‘converted’ and HuT said it had sent more preachers to Pakistan to 'convert' !

[Manishw]

Do not think PRC a match in that regard. Communists come lower than Islamists in flexibility and ruthlessness - even the Soviets of NKVD-KGB experience bowed out.

Brihaspati Ji
Soviets lost because the Islamists were supported by unkil/NATO and Russians were on an expansionary spree.Then a highly weakened Russia faced an existential threat from the Islamists originating from Chechnya primarily and as per my thinking were very brutally put down and Chechnya flattened.Since that time the Islamists are keeping quiet more or less. This goes to prove that brute force(ala existential threat to any big power)works on the Islamists.
How do you reconcile this? or am I wrong in certain assumptions?
Would be obliged if you could shed some light on this as then we could take this discussion further with respect to PRC.

[RajeshG]

Shiv

This is exactly where we differ.

I havent bought into the theory that Pakistan became an Islamic state after 71.

Pakistan was built as an Islamic state for Islamic people. The instinct of such a state will be to increasingly look for Islamic solutions. Pakistan ka matlab kya? la ilaha ilallah.

IOW I dont see post 71 Islamization as some deliberate act by one entity or another. By virtue of being an Islamic state for Islamic people, such a state will neccesarily turn to Islamic solutions.

No amount of whiskey drinking leaders can prevent this from happening. It is just a natural progression.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ IMO its only a matter of time before Roos or cheen decide to payback unkil in the same 'mujradeen' coin that unkil used over-cleverly against USSR.

What's to stop the pla, eye-ranians or the russkies from arming and funding anti-unkil militias all over CAR and Afgn? Heck, even TSP will gladly join in such as enterprise while bilking the US taxpayer at the same time.

[RajeshA]

I havent bought into the theory that Pakistan became an Islamic state after 71.

Pakistan was built as an Islamic state for Islamic people. The instinct of such a state will be to increasingly look for Islamic solutions. Pakistan ka matlab kya? la ilaha ilallah.

IOW I dont see post 71 Islamization as some deliberate act by one entity or another. By virtue of being an Islamic state for Islamic people, such a state will neccesarily turn to Islamic solutions.

No amount of whiskey drinking leaders can prevent this from happening. It is just a natural progression.

There is a slight difference.

Consider two mentalities of the elite.

One is that of Muslim Chauvinism, is regionally oriented, derives its moorings from the historical conflict of the tribe, focuses on beating its historical regional foe. There is a difference between the power elite and the customs they observe, and the customs that the common folk observes. The elite is willing to make alliances with all and sundry, as long as they are supported in their historical rivalry. The alliances don't become a taboo even if they have to be made with ideological enemies.

The other mentality is of Islamism. Here the conflict is not restricted to a region. The conflict is global. The enemies are those who have been historical enemies for the faith, and not just enemies for a certain ethnic group following the faith. There is also a certain prioritizing amongst the enemies. The enemies range from the Great Satan, to Small Satan, to Kaafir, and the enemies are to be fought in that order. Here the elite are not allowed any wavers with regards to the customs and they have to abide by the dictates of the faith.

For India, Islamism is better than Muslim Chauvinism. The resources of the momeen would be used differently. The prioritized enemy is USA. Then there are the Israelis. Then come the Shi'ite Iranians. Russians and Chinese follow. Somewhere in this list, India is also there, but certainly not as the first stop.

[shiv]

For India, Islamism is better than Muslim Chauvinism. The resources of the momeen would be used differently. The prioritized enemy is USA. Then there are the Israelis. Then come the Shi'ite Iranians. Russians and Chinese follow. Somewhere in this list, India is also there, but certainly not as the first stop.

Precisely.

[Lalmohan]

^^^ technically the US is 2ndry - it is supposed to be the apostate regimes of al-saud, hosni mubarak and possibly the hashemites, but increasingly the Great Satan loving RAPE

[RajeshA]

^^^ technically the US is 2ndry - it is supposed to be the apostate regimes of al-saud, hosni mubarak and possibly the hashemites, but increasingly the Great Satan loving RAPE

forsooth! forsooth!

[brihaspati]

Do not think PRC a match in that regard. Communists come lower than Islamists in flexibility and ruthlessness - even the Soviets of NKVD-KGB experience bowed out.

Brihaspati Ji
Soviets lost because the Islamists were supported by unkil/NATO and Russians were on an expansionary spree.Then a highly weakened Russia faced an existential threat from the Islamists originating from Chechnya primarily and as per my thinking were very brutally put down and Chechnya flattened.Since that time the Islamists are keeping quiet more or less. This goes to prove that brute force(ala existential threat to any big power)works on the Islamists.
How do you reconcile this? or am I wrong in certain assumptions?
Would be obliged if you could shed some light on this as then we could take this discussion further with respect to PRC.

I have always said that overwhelming genocidic brutality always calms down Islamists. Islamists are the greatest of cowards in history. Their prefered method of fighting is deception. They will never fight to the point when they see real possibility of extinction. They will compromise in all possible ways to preserve a core that they hope will one day take revenge and reassert.

Except in Spain, however, nowhere have non-Muslims pressed their advantage when Muslims are desperate to compromise. The key was to have destroyed all the institutional mechanisms of continuing and propagating Islam once an Islamist population was defeated. This is what the founding father of Islam did to defeated non-muslim settlements - killed off the post-puberty males to prevent cultural resistance and future retaliation, enslaved children and forcibly bedded the females, and destroyed or converted the cultural icons of the defeated population, took over land and property and made the defeated population serfs and bonded labour.

Russians did to a certain extent during their Tsarist expansion phase crush Islamism in conquered territories in CAR. The Bolsheviks did to a certain extent.

It is still not much of a difference from that situation in Chechnya or Eastern Turkmenistan is that these are under sovereign control of the respective modern recognized states which also are militarily powerful enough to prevent western meddling in favour of Islamism like they did in Kosovo or Bosnia.

However for indepndent and recognized to be so - nations on the borders of the Russians or Chinese is an entirely different ball game. These countries can sponsor or host Islamists from the relative safety of an international pampering that can pretend to be legitimate. There would be severe lack of legitimacy for the Russkies or the Chinese to mount cross-border campaigns to fix the Islamists. Even if they do, they wil be under severe stress to follow the Geneva convention which will be stringently applied to them but never, ever applied to any Islamic.

I repeat, that Islamists can only be defeated by using their own techniques back on them. Non-muslims have surrendered that right to pay Islamists back in their own coin. Russians and the Chinese are still more restricted because they have integrated with the rest of the world in ideology and mindset to a greater extent than the Islamists anywhere in the world.

[Manishw]

@Brihaspati Ji, First thanks for shedding light on this.I have been particularly convinced of a fact that you mention
" I have always said that overwhelming genocidic brutality always calms down Islamists. Islamists are the greatest of cowards in history".

Now another question please-Why do you think that if (hypothetically) the Islamists were to take on the PRC, they would be any less brutal on them.The PRC would have definitely learned their lessson's from the USSR/russia experience. I ask this question since you don't seem convinced by my argument that Quote "if the Islamists were to take on the PRC, the PRC would chew the Islamists into little pieces and throw them in the nearest gutter" unquote.

[brihaspati]

Well, this perhaps goes into analyzing Chinese fighting styles and attitudes and methods of dealing with religion based militancy. The greatest Chinese weakness is the terrain on the north-west for which the plains Han is not really well adapted. They have historically and currently, relied on strength in numbers and positional strengthening at borders.

Maoists did use the flexible fluid base area tactics. But the advantage of that is neutralized if the enemy also uses that tactic.

Any Islamist asymmetric warfare will gain the support of a lot of powers not wanting to see China get dominance. The very friends of China will collaborate covertly to take her down a peg or two. The islamists can strike, bite and withdraw and the north west will become indefensible in the long run for the chinese if the current geographical trends continue [desertification, loss of settlements, dust storms, mudslides etc].

As long as the Islamists can maintain their back end in Islamist CAR [Uzbekistan civil war should be a good opportunity for the militants] they have strategic depth - where China cannot really project power in spite of best wishes. When Islamists move in, they will work like the Mongols - killing the last stray dog and cat of the townships. If PLA tries to do anything like that outside its borders China will be clamped down upon by the entire world for violating human rights. China's current integration with western interests makes it more difficult for China to swing that way.

[Manishw]

Brihaspati Ji If am reading into your post correctly, PRC crossing its borders will get thrashed to which I also agree but Islamists can do nothing to pose an existential threat to PRC/china, since the brutality I mentioned above wrt russkies will then come into play.
So basically china not interfering in the Islamists way is sure but then I don't think the Islamists will go on to take the PRC in their homeland. If anything it points to a draw with the U.S basically containing china in this Draw and as usual coming out ahead.
Please correct anything that you find wrong above and thanks for responding and sharing your Great insights.

[brihaspati]

Manishw ji,
please don't say I have great insights. I too am an explorer, and my knowledge too is incomplete. Then the issue:

The north-west is a place where the plains Chinese regimes have always floundered. Right from the very beginnings of their claimed history, the dynasties go down when a combination of climatic adversities and steppe "barbarians" force the plains Chinese domains to shrink drastically. The very concept of the "wall" is pretty old for China, and the very first grand emperor practically ruined the country and his successors in trying to build the wall.

If we study the ways in which "barbarians" won, it was always initially a long period of skirmish when the north-western nomads raided and destroyed the trade networks and settlements or Chinese outposts, and then withdraw when the Chinese armies went forth. It was not sustainable in the older periods to maintain huge armies in the region, and even with modern upgrades, it may still not be possible to maintain a huge army in the north west for a significantly long period.

Whenever the Chinese are under stress, say as in Japan's invasion, the first area from which the plains authority goes away is again the NW. This is the reason that the "Red army" or the 8th route army as it was then known, made a dash for the region on the pretext of fighting the nationalist war against Japan and to escape encirclement and erasure in their southern base. Mao survived here by making treaties and tactical alliances with the Muslim nomadic tribes, and this is reflected also in Mao's flattering outlining of Islamic doctrine as closely compatible with that of Communism.

How many wars have the modern Chinese won? Not the war with Japan. A stalemate in Korea with huge loss of lives. A quick border skirmish with deceptive aggression in the Himalayas which was tactically a victory but again not a full scale territorial penetration and frontal war. Practically losing third party wars in Kampuchea to the vietnamese, and losing again in third party war through Pak against India. Only third party war that was a success was the Vietnamese one, but it is a complicated story of playing the "protesting lady" until the groom coughs up the dole - in the form of the secret dealing between Mao with Nixon and his aide.

How successful have they been in combating ethnic militancy? Have they at all faced any serious challenge here? Apart from a brief attempt by the CIA to put up a Tibetan resistance which was again betrayed by Nixon's patch up, there has not been any serious attempt at using the religious discontent against Chinese regimes from the usual suspects.

But now the Islamist engine has got its own driving fuel, and a network that has spanned the CAR through to the Saharas. Ample scope to generate income from trafficking of both human and drug type, and supply arms and ammunitions. Islamists will look for expansion here by raiding, damaging and in general bleeding by a thousand cuts. The Chinese cannot do much about it. Wait for greater Taliban power in AFG and a generally spreading civil war in Uzbekistan. Then will come the reignition of Chechnya and Uyghuristan.

By the way, the Chechen problem is not entirely gone. It has simply gone underground locally and spread out into the "neighbourhood".

[Manishw]

^^^ Brihaspati Ji thanks again for responding you have me converted to your P.O.V.

[ShivaS]

Will not economic clout of PRC mute the western countries out cry in response to scorched earth policy of PLA in its NW region?

[surinder]

Brihaspati, you forget that PRC did fight the Russians and did "win". It forced the territorial tilt in its favor, forcing USSR to keep a huge army at the border and finally yielded terriotory including an island on the river. It did win the war with India, which supposedly had a battle hardened army of WW I, II, and 1948. Yes the skirmish was short lived, but they calibrated the war to get what they wanted. With USA, they fought an enemy much much more powerful to a standstill in Korea. The fact they would fight it out and force a draw in itself is remarkable. Yes, the Vietnam war was a clear defeat, and that still stings to PRC.

[Cosmo_R]

@RajeshA ^^^Re "America's National Interests in Pakistan"

Let's get GE, LM, Boeing and N-G in our corner. We already have Ford, Bechtel etc.

You'd be surprised at the clout these guys carry. During the hard sell in 2008 on the nuclear deal, Sen. John Cornyn observed as to how he was surprised to find the only thing that some Veterans of Foreign Wars lodge or whatever, in some dinky Texas town wanted to talk about was his position on the nuke deal. They were for it.

Cornyn remarked later (privately) that he was surprised to know they even heard of India let alone about the nuke deal. Guess who's their 'neighbor' in TX? No prizes for guessing LM.

[brihaspati]

Surinder,
the so-called Zhenbao island incident started in typical Chinese fashion of covert and deceptive first attack by an ambush on a Russian military post. The Soviets retaliated by pounding Chinese positions on the Chinese side of the banks of the Ussuri river, and in fact stormed the island in question. Now this was 1969, and right from the late 50's Mao had been seeking ways to break away from the Soviet model because most likely he felt threatened with the downgrading of Stalin in the 20th party congress of the CPSU by Khruschev.

An USSR which replaced the "supreme leader"'s powers with a party oligarchy would be a dangerous precedent because even from the 1950's Mao was locked in a personal power struggle with the likes of Liu Shao Chi and others. This is the whole story behind the Himalayan adventure in 1962 and the Cultural Revolution in 1966. It was an internal communist struggle for personal power on the one hand and seeking to strengthen his personal position by allying with the USA - by appearing willing to act independent of USSR and itching to play international big-power role - as in attacking India. It was cry of demanding recognition by the USA.

The negotiations were resumed and borders fixed after the break-up of the Soviet Union, when initially the Russians were in "giving up peripheral land" mode. This happened finally formally only in 2005.

So even on the ground situation, PRC failed to win at least in the territorial terms then in 1969 by armed action.

The Korean war was another sea-saw situation which was hugely costly for the Chinese. MacArthurs overweening confidence in trying to mount a second attack to push back the Chinese from the northern part of the Peninsula and his demand to nuke the Chinese stirred up a hornets nest in Washington military circles leading to halting the offensive and recall of MacArthur. It is another issue but OT here to track the complicated and apparently paradoxical Foxtrot moves that Truman twisted around in the early 50's. There had been a section of Americans interested in exploring the Maoists from the Hunan period in the late 30's, and there are some evidence that this lobby was active during the 50's. Mao on the other hand had always cultivated overseas Chinese to approach the US, and I think Stilwell of Burma "fame" landed up on the Maoist base for some time. Even though the US admin failed to keep up the friendship in the light of changed alliance parameters with Nationalist Chiang and Stalin, the connection lines were never really broken.