Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[shukla]

X-post..

TOI reports on various activities (current and future) of DRDO's Combat Vehicle Development Unit..

DRDO's Combat Vehicle Development Unit Is..

The unit at Avadi, on the outskirts of Chennai, tasked with the design, development and testing of tracked combat vehicles and specialised tracked vehicles, has several projects in hand. Apart from the focus on Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark II, it is also designing and developing the state-of-art futuristic main battle tank (FMBT), which is expected to cater to the requirements of the Army. "The Army expects the FMBT to be ready by 2020," CVR&DE director P Sivakumar told TOI recently. The unit is one of the 52 research units of the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DR&DO) in the country and the only one in Tamil Nadu.

Mobile platforms for missiles is another arena where its expertise is sought. For nearly a decade, it has supplied these platforms for missiles, including Akash, Prithivi and Trishul, and is presently developing several more.

Casualties are inevitable in battle and the CVR&DE's armoured ambulances come in handy. Equipped with airconditioning and heating facilities, it is designed for speedy evacuation of casualties and has excellent mobility for operation in various terrain. Another piece of equipment is the Carrier Command Post Tracked BMP-II (CCPT), designed to function as a self-propelled (SP) artillery command post. It affords nuclear, biological and chemical protection and protection against small arms. "We recently got an order for 50 CCPTs, each costing around Rs 3-4 crore," Sivakumar added.

The CVR&DE's dream project, at the conception stage, is the Unmanned Track Vehicle (UTV) through the tele-operated method the improved version is the automatic method. It is based on a wheeled vehicle platform comprising a pilot system unit and two units for surveillance. The UTVs, mainly for surveillance and detection of mines, include remote operations on wirless LAN (land area network), vision systems and robotic manipulator. A miniature model with a range of five km has been developed and will be operated with a GIS-based auto vehicle tracking system.

[suryag]

From the above link

The unit with a present strength of 1,300 employees, including 290 scientists, is credited with designing and developing some of the best military hardware in the world. Among them are the Arjun Main Battle Tank (MBT) Mark I and Mark II, Ex-Tank (Experimental tank) and Combat Improved (CI) Ajeya Mark I, indigenously-developed T-72 tank with an advanced fire control system and high mobility. It is currently the mainstay of the armoured corps.

Their achievements(in particular building Arjun from scratch) have to be commended given that there are only 290 scientists, in DRDL/ISRO land Engineers and scientists are i think both labelled as Scientists, in other words this 290 consists of researchers and builders, GOI or someone do they ever have a review of headcount and staffing ?

[Craig Alpert]

Don't know if this is HARRAM but Mohtarma mentions Army To Reduce its Night Blindness, Arjun Mk-II To Have Panoramic Commander's Sight

Director of the Dehradun-based Instruments Research Development Establishment (IRDE), S S Sundaram, said in a press conference here today that Arjun Mk-II's Commander's sight will be modified and advanced compared to the one in Arjun Mk-I.

The Commander's sight in Mk-I has just day vision, but the new one being developed for Mk-II will have day and night vision, laser range finder and will be capable of firing also. It will have a range of about five kilometers, and will be ready for evaluation in one year. The lab has also developed a five kilometer Commander's sight for the T-72, which has been successful, and has got orders from the Army for similar commander's sights to be made for T-90 tanks and BMPs.

[nits]

Indian Army T-72 now equipped with night vision : Defence Minister

[naird]

Don't know if this is HARRAM but Mohtarma mentions Army To Reduce its Night Blindness, Arjun Mk-II To Have Panoramic Commander's Sight

Director of the Dehradun-based Instruments Research Development Establishment (IRDE), S S Sundaram, said in a press conference here today that Arjun Mk-II's Commander's sight will be modified and advanced compared to the one in Arjun Mk-I.

The Commander's sight in Mk-I has just day vision, but the new one being developed for Mk-II will have day and night vision, laser range finder and will be capable of firing also. It will have a range of about five kilometers, and will be ready for evaluation in one year. The lab has also developed a five kilometer Commander's sight for the T-72, which has been successful, and has got orders from the Army for similar commander's sights to be made for T-90 tanks and BMPs.

I guess none of our tanks have 360 deg sight -- Gunner has night vision sight but i dont believe the tank commander can independently scan for other targets when gunner is engaging the target.

Can seniors shed some light on this issue ? Also why are these critical/important upgrades missing from all tanks (T90 also doesnt have them --based on above) ? Army really needs to step up their game -- on every field it seems they are lagging.

[tsarkar]

The news report is correct.

Typically, in hunter killer mode of operations, the commander scans for targets using his panoramic sight, decides the priority of engagement and hands them off to gunner who engages them. The commander keeps scanning for targets while gunner engages. This saves gunner search time.

In Arjun, the commander’s panoramic sight lacks night vision. The gunner’s (Sagem?) thermal imager helped him engage, but he would have to carry out the search function himself, so this mode is slower than a hunter killer mode. The commander’s situational awareness is also affected.

The new sight will allow the commander to control the armament as well.

Naird – The word “panoramic” automatically implies very wide field of view. No tank optronic on earth has 360 degree FoV. Reason being human eyes and neck cannot see 360 degrees even if its available. Arjun commander had panoramic sight from day 1.

The T-90 PNK-4S commander’s sight has a night channel. The newly developed sight has better ranges and hence, might replace it.

[saurav.jha]

Since it seems T-72 are upgraded now with night vision , is there any possibility that the current batches of ARJUN will also be upgraded with night vision in commander's sight..?

[Singha]

nothing prevents that , except money.

[rohitvats]

errr......Singha, not even the money....the IA......

[Yagnasri]

I agree. So for no news on developing 1500 hp eng. Some talk was there before. No news of any active defence. No big orders. All point to one direction only.

[Rahul M]

great news !!!! something I've been going on and on for sometime now !

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2010/08/ ... fence.html

India’s defence industry is poised at a landmark. On the 25th of August, four Indian companies --- three private and one public --- will submit bids in the MoD’s first-ever “Indian industry only” competition to develop a high-tech weapon system for the defence forces.

The four companies --- Tata Motors; the Mahindra Group; L&T; and the MoD-owned Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) --- are competing to design and build 2600 new-generation Future Infantry Combat Vehicles (F-ICVs) to replace the Indian Army’s aging fleet of Russian-designed BMP-IIs. In an American-style showdown, two of these vendors will be nominated to develop a prototype each and the winning design selected for the F-ICV.

Sources familiar with the EoI say that the FICV will be operated by 3 crewmembers, and carry 7 additional soldiers with combat loads; it must provide protection from bullets fired by 14.5 millimetre calibre weapons; it must be amphibious, i.e. capable of floating in water; it must be air-transportable, which would imply a maximum weight of 18-20 tonnes; and it must have a cannon and be capable of firing anti-tank missiles.

At least two of the private contractors believe that it would be wasteful to set up a Greenfield production line. Says a senior executive in one of the contending companies, “Ordnance Factory, Medak is a national asset and it would be lying idle at that time. We could build the FICV at Medak --- on a Government-Owned-Company-Operated (GOCO) basis --- instead of setting up a brand new facility.”

[Pratyush]

^^^A wonderful news. Lets hope that all the designers come with great products and the MOD is faced with the problem of plenty.

[Singha]

all of them will likely rope in foreign consultants. but drdo can roll out its Abhay design, hopefully with a pvt party than OFB!

to justify the tag, the turret has got to be a unmanned one mounting just the cannon, HMG and EO sensors and permitting high angle of elevation upto say 70' to take on urban targets more easily. or atleast a remote HMG station atop a manned turret.

and should have a modular design enabling a Wiesel type mortar carrier, command tank, comms tank , AA gun type functions.

[rohitvats]

Finally, one's hope of seeing IA with multiple Mechanized Divisions might come true.....amen!!!

[Singha]

I believe BAE systems has a tieup with Mahindra. they have a deep and wide pool of technologies to offer

http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServices/index.htm

I would expect a proposal for a CV9035MkIII adapted to the indian RFP with more futuristic stuff. already it has gunner and commander indep thermals which no vehicle in our inventory has.

under MOD downsizing the british are going to be retiring some armour units including AS90....perhaps therein lies our next tracked SP gun

[merlin]

Finally, one's hope of seeing IA with multiple Mechanized Divisions might come true.....amen!!!

You wish boss, you wish

This RFI/RFP business for the IFV has been going on for a while now, its only public now. Let an order be placed then we shall see - there is many a slip between cup and lip.

[rohitvats]

Finally, one's hope of seeing IA with multiple Mechanized Divisions might come true.....amen!!!

You wish boss, you wish

This RFI/RFP business for the IFV has been going on for a while now, its only public now. Let an order be placed then we shall see - there is many a slip between cup and lip.

Merlin, this is the first time RFP has been spoken of wrt the IFV thing - the one in the market is for 4X4 vehicles.....

[vic]

I think that two programmes should be launched. One for upgraded BMP-2 and another for all new IFV

[Singha]

Tula OKB did offer an upg of the BMP2 with thermals etc iirc there were even defexpo boards on it.

[merlin]

Merlin, this is the first time RFP has been spoken of wrt the IFV thing - the one in the market is for 4X4 vehicles.....

Publicly, yes.

Around this time last year, "someone" was already working on this. So presumably others were too. I'm nowhere near an expert on IFV but the way that "someone" approached the whole thing, it didn't sound very exciting.

[Dmurphy]

I think that two programmes should be launched. One for upgraded BMP-2 and another for all new IFV

Hmmm...the firm that comes second can be asked to upgrade the BMPs, so as to keep their hands full. Anyway, they'll be manufacturing only 30% of the FICVs. The BMP upgrade could include improvements derived from both the final designs.

And since at least 2 vendors are bound to manufacture in the end, private participation is guaranteed. To be honest, I would have loved to see the OFB being kept out of this. We do not need an Arjunesque delay tht plague PSU projects. Private firms, though unproven at this level, deserve a chance.

[P Chitkara]

Have any GSQRs been framed or issued for these? Also, how de we suppose the OFBs Medak facilty can be utilized by the private firms if they win the competition?

Counting the eggs before they are hatched but couldnt resist

[vic]

The way the army frames its GSQRS, they will be impossible to fulfill. They will want 20 ton IFV with performance of 40 ton CV90. Therefore there should be two or even three programmes, One to upgrade BMP-2s indigenously, Second to continue with Abhay till atleast few more prototypes are built and then a all new IFVs. In order to encourage commonality, all 4 contenders should be asked to bid for all 3 programmes!

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

Sources familiar with the EoI say that the FICV will be operated by 3 crewmembers, and carry 7 additional soldiers with combat loads; it must provide protection from bullets fired by 14.5 millimetre calibre weapons; it must be amphibious, i.e. capable of floating in water; it must be air-transportable, which would imply a maximum weight of 18-20 tonnes; and it must have a cannon and be capable of firing anti-tank missiles.

<SNIP>

For me the bolded part - that is the weight - is the main problem.

If you see the development of new generation AFV/IFV in armies across the world, the new AFV/IFV tip the scale beyond 20 tonnes (except Stryker)....reaching all the way 30+tonnes. The increasing lethality of anit-armor cannons (starting from 14.5mm AP rounds) to exp. of western armies in urban warfare, has taught them need for higher armored versions. Armies saw the fate of BMP-I/II in Afganistan and Chechnya. Yes, nothing can withstand a 50kgs IED but these APC need better armor and more powerful engine (to ensure proper bhp/ton ratio). And then there is concept of modular armor which can be added as per the requirement and mission profile.

Plus, stand-off weapon systems+better electro-optronics. If the IA needs a real air-transportable version, it can use the base version. But IMO, we need the serious all-round protection level against 14.5mm ammunition.

And I'm really happy to see 2,600 number for new IFV. That amounts to 45+ Mechanized Regiments....

[Rahul M]

AWMTA and all that.
I was just going to post on that. the sweet spot for modern ICV's seems to be around 25 tonnes.
then again, air transportability might have played a part. the MTA tops at 20 tonnes.
I do hope they have the option of additional bolt-on armour. the only possible way they can approach similar protection level with this weight category is by reducing size of crew/passenger compartment IOW with less soldiers per vehicle/more automation and the option of bolt-on armour.
of course, in case of the later they have to take care of engine power requirements too.

[rohitvats]

Rahul Sir, if you see, the new AFV/IFV in Europe have been deigned keeping in mind the A400M air-lift capability and cargo-hold dimensions....US has gone for C-130J as benchmark + the fact that US forces are expeditionary in nature, they need to be a bit light....

[Singha]

hopefully it will end up as something more than license production by JV partner of some latest western IFV. significant degree of domestic content and customization need to be mandated and a gruelling series of 'arjun std' trials held to break and rip apart all the chi chi cold weather suited stuff.

[Singha]

imo its better to rely on heavier airlifters than a 20-t MTA driving down to the specs of new IFV to vulnerable levels of protection. the PLA and PA are bristling with ATGMs ... we need all the protection we can get and world class standoff EO, BMS, crew comfort (AC a must) and weapons.

[negi]

The west is more or less self sufficient when it comes to defense platforms hence they can in 'theory' build platforms keeping in mind their airlift capability, we as of now are not in the same position as political factors outweigh such sensibilities . Even if MTA can lift troops or equipment weighing 20mT it might not necessarily be able to lift a IFV weighing 20mT (for load density might be higher) , btw how is the MTA program shaping up ?

We already have 6 C-130Js in pipeline with an option for a follow on order of 6 more it would make sense for HAL to license produce the Super Hercules specially when today India can convince the Unkil to get the production line set up in desh.

[rohitvats]

^^^And as I've argued before, IAF will need replacement for IL-76 as and when they reach end of useful life...and this category will have at least 25-30 a/c (with IAF already committed to 45 MTA)...with C-17, should be enough to take care of out of area operations...as it is, we can deploy AFV+MBT anywhere by road......however, if IA hopes to drop AFV+Paratroopers into Skardu and Gilgit, I'm not complaining....

[sunilUpa]

Ajai Shukla: You got it! Now deserve it

Three Indian private companies with ambitions in the defence sector won a major battle when they were invited to compete, on level terms with the public sector, in developing a Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) for the Indian Army. In the FICV project, the Ministry of Defence (MoD) has conceded almost everything that the private sector has demanded since it was allowed into defence production in 2001. The MoD will fund 80 per cent of the development cost of the FICV. And, with the army looking to buy in quantity, economies of scale are guaranteed during production

But with big changes come high expectations. Having granted the private sector its wish list, the MoD and the Indian Army will carefully observe how the private vendors handle their first-ever development contract. Any shortfalls will reinforce long-held MoD prejudices. “We told you so!” will go the chorus in South Block, “Only the public sector has the skills and the commitment needed for defence production.”

The comparison may even be directly tested, since the OFB — potentially in partnership with the DRDO — is in contention to develop the FICV.

There are three pitfalls that the private sector must avoid. First, the selected vendor(s) must not fall short of the army’s expectations, or in providing users with a development experience that contrasts tellingly with past experience with the DRDO and OFB. In this, a draw would be a loss; only an innings victory would suffice.

Secondly, the private sector must not front for foreign partners, who seek to bring in existing products through the back door. As the debutante private vendors step into the FICV arena, the spotlight will play unkindly on those clutching the arm of a muscular foreign partner.

Global arms majors have figured that a risk-free way of cracking India’s difficult procurement procedures is to partner an Indian company in a “Make” contract, and pass off existing products under the rubric of “joint development”. A top manager in one of the private companies vying for the FICV contract recounts, “I have received more partnership proposals for the FICV than I ever received for any other weapons platform.”

Reflecting this trend, private companies worry that the OFB is about to join hands with Russian export controller, Rosonboronexport, to “jointly develop” a variant of the tested BMP-3 ICV. To circumvent such a possibility, the private vendors must accept the developmental risk of proposing an FICV that is technologically beyond anything on the market today. They have been asked to develop a Futuristic ICV. The specifications they submit on the 25th must go well beyond avant-garde.

Thirdly, when history is written, the FICV will be less about who built it or how much profit was made. This chapter will be more about whether India’s private sector used this heaven-sent, MoD-funded opportunity to build its technological capability. Private sector managers argue that each technology decision — whether to develop or buy — should be treated as a business case. But this irreproachable commercial logic misses the significance of this turning point. The private sector’s success in grabbing the moment will be measured in the currency of technologies that were developed along with the FICV.

[Craig Alpert]

I think TATA should have a lot better chance, if they rope in their engineers from the JLR plant to develop a 700 - 1000 HP engine. They can use the existing Land Rover HSE engine which tops out at around 500 HP, and modify or make sure that they start from scratch and use the indian conditions/ terrain to develop one IN HOUSE... If they manage to do this, then there is no stopping for TATA's product!!! TCS can do all the work related to software and they can use other means for night vision/thermal and other electronic intelligence capability...

[vina]

I think TATA should have a lot better chance, if they rope in their engineers from the JLR plant to develop a 700 - 1000 HP engine. They can use the existing Land Rover HSE engine which tops out at around 500 HP, and modify or make sure that they start from scratch and use the indian conditions/ terrain to develop one IN HOUSE

Yeah right. Only problem is that engine is Petrol!. Being a petrol will mean far less torque. What is needed is a low speed diesel putting out 600 to 700 hp and a humongous amount of torque in a small form factor! No such engine exists anywhere outside custom built military applications.

I dare say that the Army or anyone will take kindly to the idea of 1950s Centurions with Petrol engines.

[sunilUpa]

DRDO to develop army's next-generation tank

Posting in full..

With most of our armour unfit to fight at night, the project is crucial.

In March this year, during trials in the Rajasthan desert, the Defence R&D Organisation’s Arjun tank conclusively outperformed the Russian T-90, the army’s showpiece. Buoyed by that success and by the army’s consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop India’s next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT).
While costs are still being evaluated, the projections are mind-boggling. The development cost alone could be Rs 5,000 crore. Then, the replacement cost of the Indian Army’s 4,000 tanks — at a conservative Rs 25 crore per FMBT — adds to Rs 1,00,000 crore. The bulk of this would flow, over years of production, to Tier-I and Tier-II suppliers from small and medium industries.

For the first time, the DRDO has outlined the FMBT project’s contours. Talking exclusively to Business Standard, DRDO chief and Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat, revealed, “While the Future Infantry Combat Vehicle (FICV) has been handed over to private industry, the DRDO will develop the FMBT. We need about seven-eight years from the time the project is formally sanctioned. The army and the DRDO have already identified the major features of the FMBT, which are quite different from the Arjun. While the Arjun is a 60-tonne tank, the FMBT will be lighter… about 50 tonnes. It will be a highly mobile tank.”

Vital project
The FMBT project, says the military, is crucial for India’s future battle readiness. As army chief, General Deepak Kapoor pronounced 80 per cent of India’s tank fleet unfit to fight at night, which is when most tank battles take place. The bulk of our fleet, some 2,400 obsolescent Russian T-72s, are being shoddily patched up (see Business Standard, Feb 3, ‘Army to spend billions on outdated T-72 tanks’). More modern T-90 tanks were procured from Russia in 2001, shorn of crucial systems to reduce prices, after parliamentary dissent threatened to derail the contract (Business Standard, Feb 4, ‘Piercing the army’s armour of deception’). Only now, after nine years of stonewalling, has Russia transferred the technology needed to build the T-90 in India.

Urgently in need of capable tanks, the army has worked with DRDO to finalise a broad range of capabilities for the FMBT. These have been formalised in a document called the Preliminary Specifications Qualitative Requirement (PSQR). The detailed specifications of the FMBT, once finalised, will be listed in General Staff Qualitative Requirements (GSQR).

Amongst the capabilities being finalised for the GSQR are: active armour, which will shoot down enemy anti-tank projectiles before they strike the FMBT; extreme mobility, which makes the FMBT much harder to hit; the capability to operate in a nuclear-contaminated battlefield without exposing the crew to radiation; and the networked flow of information to the FMBT, providing full situational awareness to the crew, even when “buttoned down” inside the tank.

Also being finalised is the FMBT armament, a key attribute that determines a tank’s battlefield influence. The Arjun already has a heavy 120mm ‘main gun’, and two small-calibre machine guns; the recently ordered batch of 124 Arjuns will also fire anti-tank missiles through their main gun. The army wants all of those for the FMBT, with ranges enhanced through technological improvements.

However, the DRDO chief ruled out an electromagnetic gun, the next generation in high-velocity guns towards which armament technology aspires. “The Future MBT is not so far in the future,” Saraswat quipped.

FICV, too
With the FMBT project squarely on its agenda, the DRDO also envisages a major role in developing the FICV. Says the DRDO chief, “The FICV is not just a conventional armoured vehicle for transporting soldiers. It involves advanced technologies and multidisciplinary integration, which private industry has never done. Only the DRDO and the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB) have that experience. DRDO teams are already thinking about the technologies that should go into the FICV. But this is only to support private industry in making the FICV project a success.”

While private industry weighs its options about where to manufacture the FICV, the DRDO has already chosen the Heavy Vehicle Factory (HVF) in Avadi —- the OFB facility that builds the Arjun —- as the FMBT production line.

“It will definitely be produced in HVF. I see no way that we can go away from HVF,” says Saraswat. “The HVF will work with us from the preliminary design of the FMBT, so that we can go from prototype to mass production without any hiccups.”

[Craig Alpert]

Yeah right. Only problem is that engine is Petrol!. Being a petrol will mean far less torque. What is needed is a low speed diesel putting out 600 to 700 hp and a humongous amount of torque in a small form factor! No such engine exists anywhere outside custom built military applications.

I dare say that the Army or anyone will take kindly to the idea of 1950s Centurions with Petrol engines.

I almost tripped from my chair..

Land rover has been making TDI (turbo diesel engines) for years now, it has also has an hybrid system (which uses a combination of electric motors + gas/diesel) and yes you might get more torque in diesel which is exactly the reason why I mentioned TATA's having an upper hand in engine R&D... I am very well aware that no such engine exists in JLR, which can pump out 700 HP with 1000 lb/ft torque which is why I said that they should do the R&D and start from scratch, but they have an upper hand if they choose an engine based on JLR's high power experience and modify to suit/meet Desi requirements!!!

[Rahul M]

it does not need 700 hp, that's almost tank category. 400-500 hp should be enough.

[Craig Alpert]

Dada, stated that as an an example only...

[Dmurphy]

Ajai Shukla says "Buoyed by that success and by the army’s consequent order for 124 additional Arjuns, the DRDO is now readying to develop India’s next-generation tank, currently termed the Future Main Battle Tank (FMBT). While costs are still being evaluated, the projections are mind-boggling. The development cost alone could be Rs 5,000 crore. Then, the replacement cost of the Indian Army’s 4,000 tanks — at a conservative Rs 25 crore per FMBT — adds to Rs 1,00,000 crore. The bulk of this would flow, over years of production, to Tier-I and Tier-II suppliers from small and medium industries"

Lets face it, that additional order for 124 tanks was more of a sympathy order from the DGMF than that out of want. And lets not discount the power of collective wailing from us here on BRF and uber-PSU loving journos like Shukla. Yes, the Arjun must have outperformed the T-90 in the trials but 124 is hardly a number which shows DGMF's desire. And whatever happened to the "we need an order for a minimum of 500 tanks to break even"? 248 is the magic figure now?

No, I have no problem with the DRDO planning a futuristic MBT, but this is not just some school science project. Its thousands of crores of tax money they're gonna spend and they need to explain where they are deriving this super-confidence from after what happened to the Arjun! Please, do not say the Arjun trials and definitely not the additional 124 tank order. Perhaps the biggest lesson they ought to have learnt from the Arjun farce is never count your chickens before they hatch and unless they plan to spend another 20 years on proving to the army "look, we can do this, look we can do that" and then wailing for orders, we're paying to embarrass ourselves again. All that when they barely managed to push 248 tanks down the army's throat since 1972. What confidence!

[vina]

it does not need 700 hp, that's almost tank category. 400-500 hp should be enough.

The high power is actually better. Given the compactness and power density required, it actually SCREAMS for a 2 stroke engine for tank applications.

The Ukranian 6TD series is an opposed piston 2 stroke engines (such engines basically trace their heritage back to the famous Junkers 2 stroke diesel aero engines of WWII). In fact, the L-60 Leyland engine of the Vijayanta is an opposed piston engine, a direct derivative of the Junkers.

They can use the existing Land Rover HSE engine which tops out at around 500 HP, and modify

Thoughts like these are a total dead end. First it is a petrol and more than land rover Tata has greater experience making higher output higher torque truck diesels (the car and truck engines are different and given the weight class of a 20 to 50 ton tank/IFV, a truck engine is more suited) . At best you will reach the MTU Europack levels if you went with a 4 stroke diesel cycle and even throw in cutting edge electronics , engine controls and common rail high pressure fuel injection.

If you want to jump to the next level in terms of power to weight ratio, compactness, form factor (aka.. everything captured in the word power density) there is no alternate to going 2 stroke .

Now , other than the 6TD (which can be a starting point) and you throw in the modern fuel injection etc , the only other folks who seem to be doing cutting edge in the 2 stroke opposed piston route is the OPOC engine by Eco Motors, by Prof Peter Hofbauer (who basically created the first diesel engines and iconic engines like VR6 for Volkswagen) and funded by Vinod Khosla's Khosla Ventures, Bill Gates and US DoD has already joined hands with them as power plants for armored and tactical vehicles.

A Mahindra/Tata or whoever would be well advised to sign up with Eco Motors to access the developed engines and fine tune a design around it and use that as a start for a new generation of engines for their trucks and heavy vehicle lines and also automobile versions for cars etc.

As for DRDO , they should dust off their drawings of the Leyland L-60 as a starting point and see what they can do to bring it upto date in terms of fuel injection, turbo charging and get it into their future FICV as an offering. Their earlier attempts to do anything with the L-60 were a miserable failure. Maybe they should start de novo with a fresh radical redesign of the L-60.

However, for an ICV, the engines are already there. In fact, you can use the older T-72 engines (you can derate them) or the BMP engines (uprate them) as a backup, in case the DRDO cant do much with the L-60 and increase power density.

[D Roy]

you are seeing all this indigenous FMBT talk because the Russkis are not going to go ahead with the development of the T-95 on their own.

But they might be looking to "co-develop" it for international customers.

So DRDO could

1. make something based on what they have learnt from the Arjun

2. or end up "co-developing" the T-95 as the FMBT in the same manner that PAK-FA is being 'co-developed" to become the FGFA. The Indian military seems to like these british program sounding acronyms. With inputs from the Arjun program of course.


50 tons is in any case the new comfort zone for Russian tank designers. they aren't yet that cool about 60 yet . even the black eagle was just about 50...