Indian Naval Discussion

[Austin]

Seems like the new AW159 'Lynx Wildcat' could be one strong contender

AgustaWestland seeks export buyers for AW159 'Lynx Wildcat'

Lynx Wildcat makes first flight, with AW149 also poised for debut

[yantra]

I think we are missing something over here. China will not build a single aircraft carrier, they will build more than one. And the gap between PLAN and USN in 25 years will be nil. That is provided China is able to sustain its break neck economic growth.
The main point, where India is concerned, is that the admiral said west of Hawaii and INDIAN ocean would be spheres of Chinese influence, where USN ships need not come.

First some basics...
- PRC doesn't operate any ACs at present. Its first AC is expected in 2015. Even if it builds 1AC per year it will take another 10 years (2025) to match with current US power projection. Even to achieve this basic capability PRC has to grow at breakneck speed without breaking its neck.

- In the meantime, US already has 11 carriers in service and 1 under construction. If push comes to shove, US can build more AC than PRC at any point of time.

- By 2015-20, India will have three ACs in service - Vikramaditya, IAC 1 and IAC 2.

If PRC can comeup with this novel idea of AC-killer US and India too can come up with better AC-Killer missiles.

Good points RamaY. Also, it is just not building them in an assembly-line fashion, but also having requisite trained man-power to operate them effectively. That is not as easy as just building them.

[arnabh]

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/2010 ... ect-3.html

[Philip]

Tackling China's anti-carrier "Ding-Dongs",a viewpoint.
It also has implications for the IN which plans to have at least three carriers in service by the end of this decade which will also be at risk from Chinese DSing-Dongs,particularly if located in Burmese territory and/or at Gwadar,a distinct possibility.

http://hotair.com/archives/2010/08/08/d ... dong-feng/
Ding Dong, Dong-Feng!

The threat of a DF-21D barrage would also be a fouling agent for carrier flight operations. The most vulnerable time of all is when aircraft are being recovered at the end of a mission cycle. The Chinese know that. Naturally, they will time DF-21D salvos to coincide with recovery ops. When you’re trying to bring down 16 or 20 jet aircraft safely, you can’t keep changing course and speed and turning your electronics on and off. The carrier has to be a safe recovery platform for her aircraft, otherwise there’s no point – and that’s the highest-payoff vulnerability for an enemy to go after.
If the DF-21D is mainly a nuisance, these issues can be addressed in the medium term with tactics, while we look for longer-term fixes in technology. But the DF-21D will be only one of the disruptions a naval force faces. It’s probably not going to be a very effective way to literally “kill” a carrier for some years to come. A submarine nailing the carrier at the keel is a much better bet: take out propulsion, you take out the whole weapon system. Without propulsion, the carrier can’t make the 35 knots of wind over the deck that it needs to recover aircraft. And China has lots of submarines.
It’s the combination of weapons China can increasingly bring to bear that the US Navy is worried about. If we’ve got one big, honking set of tactical constraints imposed by the Chinese submarine threat, another posed by the Chinese attack aircraft threat, and another posed by supersonic anti-ship cruise missiles, adding the DF-21D as a flight-ops harassment problem makes it that much harder for our forces to keep their heads above water: to use our weapons to actually attack the enemy, rather than just to defend ourselves.

[johnny_m]

A U.S CBG have AEGIS escorts. We are basically sitting ducks against such threats all the more reason to get AEGIS.

[Manishw]

Chinese Anti-carrier missile is a ballistic missile.Once they launch it, it is crossing the nuclear threshold and will be treated as such so I for one would not put too much stock on it.
Of course that does not mean that we sit on our backside, we must immediately think about countering this threat, both offensively and defensively.
Another thing apart from this is that we must invest resources in Mini-carriers like Japan, South Korea have done(call it by whatever name).They should be able fly 10-12 a/c and 3-4 helos.

[Philip]

If you go through the article about the Chinese anti-carrier Ding-Dong,the reason why China has developed this misile is because it is chiefly for "defensive" purposes,to deter US carriers from getting too close to the Chinese mainland and sabotaging any Chinese "take-away" of Taiwan.These ding-dongs are part of a combined Chinese force of subs,surface ships,land based aircraft ,etc.,to be simultanoeulsy brought into play against US carroer task forces.

Now, hunting for carriers in open seas will require considerable PRC capability in satellites,AWACS,LRMP aircraft plus,a large number of advance guard units in the form of subs.It is not going to be so easy.Secondly,any PRC attacks against US carrier task forces will render it open to US counter-strikes against PRC ballistic launch pads by the USN's Ohio class SSGNs,formerly SSBNs.These subs carry almost 200 cruise missiles and can devastate PRC missile bases.If the PRC mandarins think that Chinese naval bases and other key land based facilities will be immune from US attack,they're living very dangerously.The USN could also fine tune its existing SM-3 ABM ship borne missiles to deal with this threat,but it does make a naval planner think twice before sending a carrier into "harm's way".

In the context of the IOR,India can also adopt against a PLAN carrier task force similar tactics.We already have our own naval ballistic missile in service Dhanush.Though the method of launching Dhanush is rather impratical,using our OPVs,Dhanush exists and "can be used if need be",a quote some time ago.I have stressed several times that we have an "unsinkable carrier",INS India-our landmass that juts into the IOR like a dagger.The IN/armed forces should also possess a large quantity of long range ballistic missiles plus supersonic/hypersonic anti-ship missiles like Brahmos,to deal with any major carrier task force with anti-Indian intentions.Given the weakness of the Paki state,it is most likelty that the Paki landmass will eventually be used by the PRC.In fact,as Pak sinks beneath the waves of anarchy,the PRC will one day be called upon by the Paki military to rescue it and there is nothing that we will be able to do to stop this from happening.The GOI/IN must plan for a military takeover of the Paki landmass as a contingency.The first move will be when the US exits Afghanistan,where we will see the PRC attempting to replace it immediately through mineral mining contracts which in fact will allow them to move in tens of thousands of Chinese "workers".

The vulnerability of surface ships and large carriers is why a new approach to design of surface ships larger than 10,000t is required.Ships of this size and above should be flat tops,like the new Korean and Japanese "destroyers",equipped for future ski-jumps/STOVL fighters,UCAVs,multi-role large helos,etc.large numbers of flush-deck VLS missiles,as is on the Kuznetsov would add to the range and lethality of the warship which could perform a variety of duties,"swinging" from operation to operation.One remembers how in the Falklands War,the RN use container ships to carry Harriers and helos.It would not surprise me if at some opportune time in the future,the IN also announced that it had similar BM capability!

[Manishw]

^^^ Philip Ji very well put and succinctly addressed.Just one question? How do you launch a ballistic missile without crossing the nuclear threshold?In fact from your article India is in a more advantageous position vis the PLAN since we can use supersonic cruise missiles(maybe fitted on a/c also) in the I.O.R to carry out the same mission.

[ranjithnath]

hypothetically,in any future conflict that MAY occur,if the chinese decide to launch their ASBM against indian carrier ,wont it be a violation of no first use policy??

[Manishw]

^^^ Yes(according to me) and then we enter into a nuclear war (which is true if china tries something with unkil also)which is a totally different ball game, But PhilipJi is the guru , lets wait for an answer from him.For me that's the final word.

[Rahul M]

even more basic kweschun, how does PLA know where the Indian carrier is ? IN is not going to deploy to south china sea anytime soon, what are china's surveillance assets in IOR or BOB again ?

the anti-ship BM is being hyped by USN to secure funding for itself, there is a loooooong way to go before it is a credible threat to any ship.
it would also be much appreciated if discussion of this weapon be discussed in china mil thread.

[Manishw]

^^^ Exactly Saar, this Ho-Ha is sino-american way of doing things where unkil gets funding and china gets H & D

[Pratyush]

hypothetically,in any future conflict that MAY occur,if the chinese decide to launch their ASBM against indian carrier ,wont it be a violation of no first use policy??

No, not until it is nuke armed.

[Manishw]

^^^ Has technology progressed to a point where someone can make out whether the B.M has Nukes or flowers when it is launched?

[Pratyush]

^^ In one word, NO

[Manishw]

^^^ So you think the Americans would wait for the B.M to hit them to find out whether it has nukes/Tnukes or flowers? If you think so then sir I have nothing more to add.

[ranjithnath]

tats exactly the reason i said "hypothetically".if the diplomatic relations betn india and china worsens at some point in future and all the talks break down,and say , china decides to mobilise troops along the border and deploy its warships and nuke subs in IOR.india may respond by doing the same and deploying its carrier .if they are developing an ASBM they must develop ways to detect a moving target in vast ocean with real time satellite surveillence or using UAV's .what if chinese feels indian carriers are too close for comfort and they devide to launch teir ASBM(again hypothetically)

[Manishw]

^^^ I can hear the Mods coming, Pls stop this discussion in this thread. Shudder

[JimmyJ]

tats exactly the reason i said "hypothetically".if the diplomatic relations betn india and china worsens at some point in future and all the talks break down,and say , china decides to mobilise troops along the border and deploy its warships and nuke subs in IOR.india may respond by doing the same and deploying its carrier .if they are developing an ASBM they must develop ways to detect a moving target in vast ocean with real time satellite surveillence or using UAV's .what if chinese feels indian carriers are too close for comfort and they devide to launch teir ASBM(again hypothetically)

And during which year would China deploy its assets in IOR? The moment they get any close to the Malacca strait, IN would be there to shake hands with them. Or may be they will travel the other way round to IOR, but I hope they do carry enough fuel too, they could probably refuel in Africa or Pakistan.

Also what is th current range of the ASBM? And what about the accuracy of the BM and the response time available for IN in IOR?

At least we must thank the Chinese for their ability to piss off a lot of nations with their military might and with accuracy much greater than their ASBM, IN should have got enough warning on their movements before they actually reach IOR. Sinophile Kevin Rudd is gone, Chenon incident brought to light the Chinese mentality for the South Koreans, Vietnam is in US camp now, ASEAN nations are already on alert and the mood seems to be quickly changing the White house too.

Some times it is also good to know that defense is not just about ones own capability

oh is it OT, I thought there was IN appearing every where

[rahulm]

The 26/11 attacks have had a significant impact on the Navy's focus. In a way, it has had to turn on a dime at very short notice.

The IAC may be delayed.

The aftermath of the 2 ship collusion continues to be scary. There is no traffic in or out being permitted due to the container float-sam in the harbour. Heavy equipment from Singapore and brains from Rotterdam have arrived. Lets hope its cleared up fast.

[rahulm]

Paging Maz & Kapil. Bumped into a naval aviator you both know. Please contact me at rxaxhxuxlxmx2x0atgxmxaxixl.com remove all the 'x's.

[Philip]

A ballistic missile approaching a naval task force will be so swift and so sudden that only after it has either been intercepted or has landed in the sea or on its target will one know whether the warhead is nuclear or not.In fact the US is the most prepared navy in the world ready to use N-warheads and I'm in doubt whether the US and Russia have agreed upon the non-use of N-warheads against each other's naval asets.During the Cold War,both sides had their subs armed with N-tipped torpedoes and missiles.The Soviet Oscar class SSGNs were exactly in number as US carriers,One Oscar to wipe out a carrier task force with its N-missiles.

However,even though it is very tempting to use a N-warhead at sea avoiding land mass,it is most unlikely that any nation including the PRC will think of doing so inviting an excuse to devastate their country with a swift pre-emptive strike.Instead,crippling the carrier and task force is what is intended to prevent it from interfering with say an invasion of Taiwan or pursuing its mission.Any PRC plan to deal with the IN is fundamentally dependent upon foreign bases in the IOR and the PLAN can only depend upon Gwadar as of now and possibly Burma in he future.It is why India's regional/IOR diplomacy must be given the highest priority in order to enter into mututal security agreements with the IOR littoral nations,especially all the remaining SAARC nations and scuttle PRC plans.

[Christopher Sidor]

India needs the ability to deploy its ACs in Pacific. For this we will require basing and refuelling stations in Pacific. Vietnam, Russia, Japan Guam(US) are good bases where our Aircraft Carriers can be based. Till now all of our future projected Aircraft carriers are fossil fuel based. We will need to build nuclear based aircraft carriers. Due to the scarcity of uranium in our country, maybe we will be hamstrung in our near and medium future. We will have to work hard to overcome this.
Our future SSBNs fleet should also operate in pacific ocean. Ideally we should have at-least 2 SSBNs in the pacific ocean all the time, in a 24 hour patrol, armed with nuclear, MIRV and cruise missiles. But operating in Pacific will require India to develop various other capabilities first.
1) Deep sea rescue submersibles, so that we can reach our submariners in case of an emergency. And also so that we can extract any nuclear warheads from any sunk submarines.
2) Dependable GPS system (read as non-us GPS). Glassnot will do for time being. But India should develop its own GPS.
3) We should develop SLBMs with ranges of 5000 Kms and more. This way some of our submarines can be place in Indian Ocean and still hit targets deep into China. Right now, our submarines will have to travel to pacific, station themselves off some 700 Kms from the coast of China and then fire our missiles. Not a comforting thought.
4) Currently arihant is a 6000 ton nuclear submarine. But we will need to build atleast 2-3 10000 ton plus SSBNs. The advantages of a 10000 ton plus SSBNs is more missile carrying capacity.

What I would like to know, is how much of arihant is indigenous and how much of it is of foreign origin. Also how much of the critical parts of Arihant depends on outsiders.

[yantra]

Good points, Christopher. JMT here:

2) Dependable GPS system (read as non-us GPS). Glassnot will do for time being. But India should develop its own GPS.

GAGAN?

3) We should develop SLBMs with ranges of 5000 Kms and more. This way some of our submarines can be place in Indian Ocean and still hit targets deep into China. Right now, our submarines will have to travel to pacific, station themselves off some 700 Kms from the coast of China and then fire our missiles. Not a comforting thought.

Are we strictly assuming that the official range is the actual possible range? How far is it true?

4) Currently arihant is a 6000 ton nuclear submarine. But we will need to build atleast 2-3 10000 ton plus SSBNs. The advantages of a 10000 ton plus SSBNs is more missile carrying capacity.

what if we have more Arihants? Will it not give us greater flexibility than mere large-capacity SSBNs?

[Rahul M]

people please continue this line of discussion in mil misc thread. all further OT posts will be deleted.

[Kailash]

Pyotr Veliky cruiser, INS Trishul to hold exercises in Arabian Sea

Russia's Pyotr Veliky nuclear-powered guided-missile cruiser and Indian Talwar class missile frigate INS Trishul will conduct a joint PASSEX-type naval exercise in the Arabian Sea on Wednesday.

The warships will practice joint maneuvering and carry out several communications drills.

[arun]

Perhaps in a case of being distracted by the follow on BAE Hawk deal, I do not recollect seeing this posted on BR.

Indian Coast Guard orders 12 more Griffon 8000 TD hovercraft:

Clicky

[Igorr]

First Tu-142ME came back to India after modernisation at TAVIA (Russia , Taganrog). The next one is expected till year end. Source.

[putnanja]

Good Old Indian Jugaad Makes Viraat Ageless, Could Keep Going For 10 More Years

...
Today, it was revealed by another senior Indian Navy officer (not the aviator quoted above -- as one moronic commenter tried to correct me on) that the 28,000-ton carrier, which was transferred to India in 1987 for what was expected to be, in effect, a seven-year operational swansong, can actually stay operational for another ten years or more -- till 2020 if necessary. "She can go for another 5-10 years. The remarkable thing about Viraat is that there are no foreseeable limits to her endurance," the officer said. Last year, she turned 50 following a life extension programme at the Cochin Shipyard (see photo) -- made necessary by the monumental Gorshkov delays. This is a warship, it appears, that simply gets better with age. Literally.
...
...
Under the life-extension programme, the Viraat underwent a great deal of steel work, received a new radar, new ESM gear, new habitations, new messes and galleys that have made it supremely more comfortable." I spent two separate nights on board Viraat in 2006 and 2007 out in the Arabian Sea -- she truly is a beaut. Ironically, chances are if she's pushed for another ten years, it's very likely Viraat won't have any aircraft to fly off its deck.

[vishnu.nv]

Even the Sea Harriers are phased out we can use the Viraat as a Helicopter carrier. It will give much punch to the ASW operations and UAV based surveillance in IOR.

[Cybaru]

First Tu-142ME came back to India after modernisation at TAVIA (Russia , Taganrog). The next one is expected till year end. Source.

Modernisation of structure and engines I presume. The electronics are not getting upgraded if I understand correctly.

[Craig Alpert]

3 Bn USD Business Opportunity in Navy Through Offset

[Austin]

Good Old Indian Jugaad Makes Viraat Ageless, Could Keep Going For 10 More Years

I think the question is not about how long the platform hull can go on be it 5 10 or 20 years , but about how many operational hours in can spend at sea in a year , there is no point in having a platform that can spend say 2 months at sea in a year and rest at dock for routine maintenance or minor upgrades , although the hull life can be expected to last for a decade.

May be if they are release the operational hours or percentage of time available each year that would matter.

[Austin]

First Tu-142ME came back to India after modernisation at TAVIA (Russia , Taganrog). The next one is expected till year end. Source.

Modernisation of structure and engines I presume. The electronics are not getting upgraded if I understand correctly.

Reading the report I think they have upgraded this aircraft as well as modernised it , this upgrade will extend the life of each aircraft by 16 years as report says , so Tu-142ME will be in IN service for a long time to come atleast a decade

[Kanson]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/go ... iraat.html

The officer -- he played a key role in overseeing the life extension programme -- added, "We are known for our jugaad. But it wasn't just that. India has achieved a remarkable piece of engineering here, conducted entirely by an Indian firm with Indian knowhow. I can tell you Viraat is truly in great shape. We had to cut the ship open to replace her condensers. It was a true feat."

Under the life-extension programme, the Viraat underwent a great deal of steel work, received a new radar, new ESM gear, new habitations, new messes and galleys that have made it supremely more comfortable." I spent two separate nights on board Viraat in 2006 and 2007 out in the Arabian Sea -- she truly is a beaut. Ironically, chances are if she's pushed for another ten years, it's very likely Viraat won't have any aircraft to fly off its deck.

This is what we were discussing recently right? - Usage of LCA in Viraat as a replacement of Sea-Harrier. I very much like to see LCA on the Viraat before its time. Let me claim the copyright of stating this first anywhere.

[Igorr]

First Tu-142ME came back to India after modernisation at TAVIA (Russia , Taganrog). The next one is expected till year end. Source.

Modernisation of structure and engines I presume. The electronics are not getting upgraded if I understand correctly.

+Unspecified weapon system modernization, call it 'electronics' or not.

[narayana]

This is what we were discussing recently right? - Usage of LCA in Viraat as a replacement of Sea-Harrier. I very much like to see LCA on the Viraat before its time. Let me claim the copyright of stating this first anywhere.

Aap ke muh me Ghee shakkar ,If sea harriers cannot be replaced before the service life completion of Viraat,can we use it for ASW warfare with a variety of ASW helicopters like the seakings and Kamovs in large numbers?

[SNaik]

Unspecified weapon system modernization, call it 'electronics' or not.

To be exact - modernized on-board systems, engines and weapon systems. Quite vague. Modernization of weapon system may just include upgrade to carry and launch X-35 and Brahmos. With this is mind modernized on-board systems may mean upgraded navigation system. Pure speculation though.

[Kanson]

If sea harriers cannot be replaced before the service life completion of Viraat,can we use it for ASW warfare with a variety of ASW helicopters like the seakings and Kamovs in large numbers?

Yes, we can. But being the Capital Ship, she needs protection from air attack. Without any air cover it will be juicy target.

[K_Rohit]

Unspecified weapon system modernization, call it 'electronics' or not.

To be exact - modernized on-board systems, engines and weapon systems. Quite vague. Modernization of weapon system may just include upgrade to carry and launch X-35 and Brahmos. With this is mind modernized on-board systems may mean upgraded navigation system. Pure speculation though.

Why is this not getting enough attention on the board? We have comments on all sorts of issues. Given how members keep talking about a lack of airborne ASW/maritime patrol capability, isn't the modernization of the Bears BIG news?

What does this entail? Why is there so little info? Google cant find anything...