Indo-UK: News & Discussion

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 17 Aug 2010 23:05

This story originally appeared in the London Times,
please give it as much publicity as possible.
The ummah, what would the paks do without it???

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/wo ... 5906221821

Yayavar · Post by **Yayavar** » 17 Aug 2010 23:46

Singha wrote:it is alleged hitler let dunkirk happen (didnt massacre the pocket) because he still hoped for a negotiated soln with the western allies to turn his attention to russia with his back secure.
I dont know if rudolf hess mission to scotland was backed by hitler...MOD docs will be declassified in 2016

Yes, I had read a book long back which elaborated on the above theme where Hitler deliberately let British forces escape. I seem to recall that the luftwaffe was held back and at other times just failed to do the job as per the author.

Hess was supposed to have undertaken the mission on his own. Should be interesting on what the MOD docs describe for afaik he was not found guilty of war crimes but was still sentenced for life.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 12:27

Hitler had a theory that he could strike a deal with the UK, since the real enemies were France and Russia. He was also backing the abdicated King as a potential take over leader, as well as the fascists

both the british expeditionary force and french army were out manouvred by german forces, totally shocked by blitzkreig. it is quite remarkable that they managed to evacuate the numbers of men they did, although most equipment was left behind

there was a sense of real panic and frantic preparations (and paranoia) on the british mainland about german invasion fears

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2010 13:38

perhaps america held out a quiet threat to get directly involved if germans landed on england. gave them enough to think about, until battle of britain had been lost and hitler decided to focus on the east and crush russia.

the RAF was pretty good though, hanging on by skin of teeth and fighting all out from the grass fields. there is a nice old film "battle of britain" about this period. flawed german bomber tactics didnt help luftwaffe's cause much. the HE111s came in a neat grid as if on parade.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 13:57

battle of britain was a turning point, however
1. british losses were high, and the raf was close to exhaustion when the luftwaffe pulled its efforts to the eastern front (although they had suffered large losses too), another month and it could have gone the other way
2. british were using radar quite effectively to monitor luftwaffe
3. spitfire was superior in the air to me109, but previous fighters (except hurricane) were totally outclassed and shot out of the sky
4. as always hitler's interference and goering's ego got in the way of luftwaffe commander's operational flexibility

bombing of civillian targets began by accident. an he111 mistook its target and dropped bombs over a civillian portion of london

the bombing, far from demoralising the population had the opposite effect, civillian casualties were high, but eventually led to a massive slum clearance programme! most european cities have 'benefited' from this land clearance and re-housing programme!!

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 13:58

^^^ a number of RIAF pilots participated in the battle of britain

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Aug 2010 18:47

"Varoon Shekhar wrote:
Hi Armen,

Elphinstone was not responsible for the massacre, but the fact is, the British abandoned the Indians to their 'fate'.

Any reliable link to proof please."

It was in an article by Rajeev Srinivasan( whom many are familiar with) in rediff a few years ago, that I read about the callous British indifference to Indian lives in the Afghan expedition. I will try to dig up the article.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 18 Aug 2010 19:47

The Germans did not pressed their advance against the forces at Dunkirk for one simple reason. They outran their logistics chain and if they pressed on, their victory could have been turned into defeat easily. They ran out of fuel and would have been sitting ducks and instead of the British fleeing, the British would have made their stand and put the whole thing into a stalemate. It was better that the Germans let the British think that if they didn't evacuate they would be slaughtered as being opposed to finding out that the Germans had run out of steam and could be held at bay.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 18 Aug 2010 20:02

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"Varoon Shekhar wrote:
Hi Armen,

Elphinstone was not responsible for the massacre, but the fact is, the British abandoned the Indians to their 'fate'.

Any reliable link to proof please."

It was in an article by Rajeev Srinivasan( whom many are familiar with) in rediff a few years ago, that I read about the callous British indifference to Indian lives in the Afghan expedition. I will try to dig up the article.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2001/oct/31rajeev.htm

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 18 Aug 2010 20:09

Thanks very much, Raghavendra. Yes, that was the article, or at least one of the major ones, by Rajeev S., on the Indo-Afghan expedition. This was a serious event, yet Indians are barely making any issue of it.

"I read an account of how an army of 16,500 (mostly Indian troops) with 38,000 non-combatants under one General Elphinstone, apparently a congenital idiot, was wiped out practically to the last man.

The Indian women, wives of the soldiers, died in the snows, abandoned, "starving, stripped, raped, and finally knifed by the Afghans". Of course, the 'European ladies' were protected by white soldiers. This is the thanks we got then for fighting white people's wars. I expect no better now.

There are plenty of other instances. Indians were used as cannon fodder by the British all over the place in both World Wars: in fact there were probably more Indian troops than British troops in their armies; "

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 20:12

ofcourse there were, 2M Indians volunteered during WW2, that is far larger than the rest of the empire combined

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 18 Aug 2010 21:00

self-deleted - going OT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2010 21:24

indian troops saw action in north africa and myanmar. but a lot of them didnt see any action and were based in iran and iraq I think.
there were some indian units in italy invasion but none in normandy I think.

so I wouldnt say they were used as cannon fodder in ww2 to my limited knowledge.

SRoy · Post by **SRoy** » 18 Aug 2010 21:30

There were Indian troops during the fall of Singapore. it is these surrendered lot that built the Burma-Thailand rail tracks.

they later formed the bulk of the INA

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 21:32

the ones who joined the INA were not sent to labour camps - it was part of the japanese strategy

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 18 Aug 2010 21:38

Singha wrote:indian troops saw action in north africa and myanmar. but a lot of them didnt see any action and were based in iran and iraq I think.
there were some indian units in italy invasion but none in normandy I think.

so I wouldnt say they were used as cannon fodder in ww2 to my limited knowledge.

north africa, greece, italy, balkans - quite a lot of hard fighting
burma, malaya - very heavy fighting, in fact the bulk of it
mesopotamia (also during WW1) - mostly guarding the oilfields!

indian army including british officers were not allowed to participate in france - although indian pows who had joined the german army did man the defences in normandy. these men met a pretty pathetic end near lake geneva, hunted down and probably shot in cold blood by the french

ww1, large numbers served in france and belgium and had very high casualties, but in the same way as anyone else. the major drawback was that in WW1 the BIA was still in post-mutiny mode and C2 was concentrated with white officers, once the lts and capts were shot dead (usually in the first few minutes of the attack) the men were not trained to lead themselves and often ended up lost and ineffective

this was addressed post war by recruiting indian officers and allowing more freedom of action and decision, but that also led to stranded indian units in ww2 malaya switching sides to japanese when their indian officers decided it was time to drop out of the empire

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Aug 2010 21:53

I would say IA in ww2 got a much better deal than the romanian and hungarian allies of germany in eastern front (left without much support for the red army to slap around) ...

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 18 Aug 2010 23:09

Milli-brain won't work with Lib Dems until they get rid of his arch-nemesis Clegg:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11016944

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 19 Aug 2010 01:03

Singha wrote:I would say IA in ww2 got a much better deal than the romanian and hungarian allies of germany in eastern front (left without much support for the red army to slap around) ...

395,000 germans and allies captured at stalingrad
5,000 come home in 1950

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 19 Aug 2010 02:08

Knowing what Germans did to Russians......no wonder

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 19 Aug 2010 07:46

Unearthing a Gory History

In 1857, the Raj erased a town of 5,000 people, in a bloody massacre, to punish them for killing six British officers.

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... ry-history

Shades of what the Nazis did at Lidice after the assassination of Haydrich.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 19 Aug 2010 08:13

Look at the Desi Dork Media's choice of words:

India to surrender aid if UK decides to cut it: Pranab

http://www.ptinews.com/news/877848_Indi ... t--Pranab-

This would have been a better headline:

India will refuse to accept aid if UK decides to cut it. ~ Pranab

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 19 Aug 2010 08:45

This ConDem Government is using deficit reduction as cover to out-Thatcher Maggie

Haha, and Cameron is doing a superb job in gutting the Leftist infrastructure. What will all the anarchist rioters do without their pay packages? What will the welfare jihadists do without their weekly cheques? How will Londonistan pay their mobs?

more:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d95f02bc-aa31 ... abdc0.html

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 19 Aug 2010 09:57

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Thanks very much, Raghavendra. Yes, that was the article, or at least one of the major ones, by Rajeev S., on the Indo-Afghan expedition. This was a serious event, yet Indians are barely making any issue of it.

"I read an account of how an army of 16,500 (mostly Indian troops) with 38,000 non-combatants under one General Elphinstone, apparently a congenital idiot, was wiped out practically to the last man.

The Indian women, wives of the soldiers, died in the snows, abandoned, "starving, stripped, raped, and finally knifed by the Afghans". Of course, the 'European ladies' were protected by white soldiers. This is the thanks we got then for fighting white people's wars. I expect no better now.

Unfortunately, Mr. Sreenivasan doesn't point out the book he got the details from either. Most accounts written by the survivors say there were about 16500 total with only 4500 of them as soldiers. The officers' women, wounded and camp followers were all handed over to Afghans as hostages at the same time, because Akbar Khan guaranteed their protection. The Afghans killed anyone they didn't think they could get a ransom for. Didn't matter what their color was, pink, brown, purple or green. Lady Sale and her entourage were taken for ransom bargaining because they were considered important enough, wives of ordinary soldiers weren't so lucky.

Instead of discussing past history though, I think this thread should discuss current matters.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 19 Aug 2010 22:37

http://sify.com/news/12-000-foreign-sex ... fidaa.html

As many as 12,000 foreign women were smuggled into Britain and forced to work as 'sex slaves' so that crime gangs could earn hundreds of millions of pounds, a study has said.

The two-year study, dubbed Project Acumen, revealed that prostitutes live and work in appalling conditions and suffer rape and imprisonment.

Most of the trafficked women were from Eastern Europe, China and Southeast Asia. They were under thousands of pounds of debt and controlled by threats of violence to family members back home.

The large extent of migrant prostitution in England and Wales was revealed by research for the Association of Chief Police Officers.

The study said that 30,000 women are working in brothels across Britain.

Police estimate that 17,000 of them are immigrants and believe that 11,800 of the foreign women may have been trafficked into the country.

There are around 6,000 brothels in England and Wales. Most are in London followed by Yorkshire and Humberside.

Daily Express quoted Immigration Minister Damian Green as saying: 'Human trafficking is a brutal form of organised crime where people are traded as commodities and exploited for profit by criminal gangs.

'Combating trafficking and looking after its victims is a priority for the new Government. In order to combat trafficking more effectively we need to understand it better.'

Nottinghamshire Deputy Chief -Constable Chris Eyre said: 'Human -trafficking for sexual exploitation involves the most extreme abuse of individuals.'

It has been estimated that crime gangs make 250 million pounds a year from prostitution.

The study found that around 5,000 of the foreign prostitutes had suspected, long before they left home, that they were likely to end up working in the sex industry.

Eyre said: 'We now have a better picture of the extent of trafficking and will look to support from Government to ensure we work effectively with all agencies to make the UK a more -hostile environment for traffickers.'

But...but...Ukstan is Tier-1 onlee...in Massa's 2010 report (Countries whose governments fully comply with the Trafficking Victims Protection Act’s (TVPA) minimum standards).
http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2010/142755.htm
So, ver well, Old Chap, carry on then...

The hypocrisy is amazing...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Aug 2010 23:14

>395,000 germans and allies captured at stalingrad
>5,000 come home in 1950

the figure I read for returnees is even lower...2500. many perished on the long march to the gulag, stragglers were shot.

btw it seems some of the wehrmacht survivors of army group south (probably hoth's panzer army) who escaped the pincer made it back home
somehow but were so far 'gone', they re-enlisted in the french foreign legion , went to vietnam and died eventually in dien ben phu at
at first place attacked within the base which was "strongpoint beatrice" or something. said to be a really hardcase and experienced band of fighters who wandered out alone into the jungle with clubs and knives to target small vietcong supply patrols and such.

legion seems to run a retirement cum old age home for some of its veterans
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/ar ... 13469.html

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 20 Aug 2010 17:06

starvation, disease and cold killed most, plus the forced labour
prisioners were fed roughly 1 slice of bread a day
read a story about a pow who found a sliver of butter one day and wolfed it down, the shock of eating fats and calories after so long sent him into a heart attack and he died on the spot

of the russian prisoners, the germans treated them the same or worse. ofcourse once they were freed, the soviets put them back into labour camps because they were deemed to have dishonoured the motherland. most perished, including it would seem one of stalin's sons

the atrocities committed against civillians on the eastern front are also very horrific, more so because of their industrialised nature. there are some very shocking pictures of women and children being herded naked into mass pits to be shot and buried, to name but a few

we are going OT here, so...

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 20 Aug 2010 18:19

After a couple of weeks of the Cameron saga, I am wondering as to what has changed on the ground? Has the UK started acting on the UK based sponsors of terrorism to India?
However I also believe that we need to use this opportunity to see to it that our interests be furthered, if there is an alignment of interests of India and UK we should be more than eager to make use of the situation and not be stopped by history. As long as our interests are served we should even help bakis too, but our interests are paramount.

derkonig · Post by **derkonig** » 20 Aug 2010 22:21

What ever happened to Londonistan these dins? No news, no march of RoP, when o when will the emirate happen?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 21 Aug 2010 04:11

These days paki RoPers are out with the big katora . Can't ask for islamic emirate and bheekh side by side.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 21 Aug 2010 21:28

put it this way, most people are saying "dawood kamran wah wah" on the TSP issue... so ROP'ers are a little quiet

Haresh · Post by **Haresh** » 22 Aug 2010 17:25

Yet again the media uses the words "South Asian Custom".
They just can't use the M word.
Anyway it does explain why pakis are the way they are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rried.html

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 22 Aug 2010 17:42

Haresh wrote:Yet again the media uses the words "South Asian Custom".
They just can't use the M word.
Anyway it does explain why pakis are the way they are.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... rried.html

Some quotes from the above article---

We know British Pakistanis constitute 1.5 per cent of the population, yet a third of all children born in this country with rare recessive genetic diseases come from this community.

We approached 16 MPs with a significant number of British Pakistani constituents for interview – every one declined. We asked 30 MPs with a high population of British Pakistanisin their seats to give their views in a short survey. Only one, who wanted to remain anonymous, responded, saying anyone who tried to talk about it risked being attacked politically.

A lone voice was Ann Cryer, former Labour MP for Keighley, near Bradford, who said ‘fear of being accused of racism or demonisation’ prevented politicians speaking up.

1.5% of population but having a hold of 30 MPs in Ukstan. Incredible sway.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 22 Aug 2010 18:03

Same everywhere. Voting enmasse, and politicians rush to acknowledge the powerful group that can ensure their victory and long term success

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 23 Aug 2010 01:38

Karan M wrote:Same everywhere. Voting enmasse, and politicians rush to acknowledge the powerful group that can ensure their victory and long term success

Not really. If they really want, they can break up this single block by creating multiple factions. We don't hear much from politicians in non-paki constituencies either. This indicates that game is something else. What we need to watch out for is how aunty is using these UK-pakis to target India.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 23 Aug 2010 05:18

^^^ The Brits, past masters at divide and rule - are unable to find ways to divvy up the packee votebank in UQ now? LOL. Yup, UQ deserves the packees. More the merrier I say.

Yeah, antipathy to India, Indians and Indian interests has remained something of a constant in britard policy over the decades. Oh, I say this half and only half in jest. Let's hope the new gubmint can at least moderate the instinctive urge to spit venom our way a tad. We know sri GWB had to fight off the entire state dept apparatus to get them to temporarily not think of us as hostile entity only.

Jai Ho and all that.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2010 16:55

When Cousins Marry

airing tonight on C4 in the UK, also available on their website. No prizes for guessing which 'community' is mostly involved here. At current trends bradfordistan will create a medical millstone around the UK healthcare system which might collapse it, before the population dies out through (un)natural selection

the interesting thing is that this practice must have accelerated in the recent past, or the population would have terminated itself way back in history

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 23 Aug 2010 19:45

^^^ They should be encouraged to marry their first cousins.. It is a good habit

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 23 Aug 2010 20:00

Lalmohan wrote: the interesting thing is that this practice must have accelerated in the recent past, or the population would have terminated itself way back in history

An astute observation. All the fatal defects would have occurred and would have died out, leaving only "safe" genes.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 23 Aug 2010 20:03

^^^ however, if one keeps on concentrating the bad genes... i wonder if that happens in sporadic bursts separated by several decades or centuries?