LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

[Neshant]

Does any platform in the airforce or army have a mini-guns mounted on choppers? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.

[Singha]

none. the Mi17 has gun pods I think but not miniguns.

[rohitvats]

Does any platform in the airforce or army have a mini-guns mounted on choppers? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.

We do have instances of door-guns on Indian choppers - but these are the MMG as used by IA. The gun in the video is a Gatling gun....We don't have a similar gun in IAF Service. BTW, MI-17 also have provision for chin mounted MMG (may be missing in newer versions as space is likely to be taken up by electronics)

[nits]

“Tiger Bird ” Media name for Light Combat Helicopter (LCH) - Link

Edited...

[Lalmohan]

Tiger Hawk

[pralay]

SkyTiger, HellTiger
or TigerSky ( natasha fans may like that )

[Rahul M]

oh please, not a naming discussion again. use the mil misc thread if you absolutely can't do without it.

[nits]

Hari Sir - One more request - Can you please shed some light on devlopment of LOH - HAL Light Observation Helicopter. When can we expect its first test flight... ?

[Hari Nair]

oh please, not a naming discussion again. use the mil misc thread if you absolutely can't do without it.

Yeah, we followed your 'naming' discussion quite closely actually! Even we have been tying ourselves up in quite a few knots on that one!
At the risk of getting some brickbats thrown on me for re-opening it all over again, does any one has a good name to suggest??

[Hari Nair]

Hari Nair - I have a question

What would be the meaning of "expanding the flight envelope" of the LCH? Would it be something like "Let us try to do a 45 degree bank today and if all is well increase that to 50 degrees next week etc?

Quite right Shiv, it's a one-step-at-a-time approach.
Certain flight testing activities require extensive ground preparation, and quite of lot of post-flight data analysis before the next step is cleared.
Sometimes, the clearance is conditional – if all parameters are ok at a test point, then proceed to the next point and so on.
There are certain test flights in which if all goes well, we can cover a surprising lot of ground in one flight. And there are tests of certain systems that require checking out a whole heap of combination of settings – which means changing settings on ground after every flight & checking it out all over again – very intensive work.
The whole process is quite tightly orchestrated by the designers, the flight test engineer and ground control– nothing is done on individual whims or fancies of any test pilot.

[Juggi G]

Hari Nair Saab !
How about the following

Tygra
Bagh
Bagheraa ( from Bagh)

[uddu]

Taking the naming convention to Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

[Sid]

Quite right Shiv, it's a one-step-at-a-time approach.
Certain flight testing activities require extensive ground preparation, and quite of lot of post-flight data analysis before the next step is cleared.
Sometimes, the clearance is conditional – if all parameters are ok at a test point, then proceed to the next point and so on.
There are certain test flights in which if all goes well, we can cover a surprising lot of ground in one flight. And there are tests of certain systems that require checking out a whole heap of combination of settings – which means changing settings on ground after every flight & checking it out all over again – very intensive work.
The whole process is quite tightly orchestrated by the designers, the flight test engineer and ground control– nothing is done on individual whims or fancies of any test pilot.

Hari Sir,

If that's the case then why LCH started doing all those stunts within few weeks of its first flight? Are we following all these testing rules/norms in case of LCH as well?

Or LCH was allowed to do all these because HAL was using the same proven power-train from ALH.

Anyhow when we looked at the testing cycle of ALH, LCA and LCH, LCH matured at a very sickening velocity.

-Sid

[shiv]

The whole process is quite tightly orchestrated by the designers, the flight test engineer and ground control– nothing is done on individual whims or fancies of any test pilot.

Thanks for the reply.

I am presuming some of the monitoring is by telemetry and some by the pilot's reports. What is the role of a chase aircraft/helo if any?

[Hari Nair]

@ Juggi G & @ PratikDas – Thanks for the suggestions on possible names for the LCH- I am making a list of those suggested names! As of now (after having had tied ourselves in knots conjuring up a suitable name) we are pursuing the more urgent task of getting the beast optimised for its roles. I guess that way the LCH would earn its name? – Just a personal opinion on that point.

[Hari Nair]

thanks for the replies sir, my replies are in colour.

I do hope you are not getting overwhelmed by the number of questions !

Yes indeed, SEAD is a specified role - ARMs alone need not be used for the role - there are other obvious weapon options. And in most cases, the ARM may not do the job at all! Notwithstanding all that, ARMs will be integrated on the LCH to be used when deemed appropriate for the target.
I admit that went over my chair marshal head !
do you mean targeting of non-emitting targets (identified by other means) and hence ARM's won't do ? please forgive me if this question intrudes into forbidden areas.
is there any specific ARM the LCH team is looking at for integration ?

[/quote]

Rahul, To get a better insight, check out how the Apaches fired the opening shots of Desert Storm (First Gulf War).

[Rahul M]

thanks, will do.

as for the naming thing, it's really due to the history of how such things usually unfold on BR. it starts innocently enough until someone opines that it will be named rajiv or after some other scion of the gandhi family, following which the discussion degenerates into a completely off-topic political discussion and the thread has to be cleaned up !
my statement was just trying to pre-empt people from going down that path.


@ all, the name for LCH discussion is being continued here.
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 09#p928909

my choice is here http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 22#p928922

[Hari Nair]

Thanks for the prompt response. The power ratio for Shakti is very impressive, as it is specially designed to be operated at higher atlitudes with a sizeable amount of payload. I'm not questioning the engine performance, what I was intrigued about was 3 things 1)Is HAL keeping the option open to use Shakti after the enormous price hike? 2) If not, has HAL taken any steps on developing a tranny on its own for LUH specifically? and last but not the least 3) We know that HAL would go to other engine manufacturers if turbomeca wouldn't adhere to HAL's assumption.. Not sure I get your question regarding keeping a discussion "Technical," unless you were taking a pot shot at me... Now regarding the blunder bit since you seem to follow Shiv's LiveFist Blog, it was brought to my attention through his posts regarding Turbomeca arm-twisiting hal with respect to offest liability and further testing of a single engine Shakti and the transmission. Here's a quote from Arror's blog that was in question.

It is understood that the HAL was forced to look to other engine makers after Turbomeca acted difficult on a single Shakti engine configuration plan for the LUH, charging an inordinate sum of money for testing and evaluation.

Now I gather from your posts that Turbomeca is NOT a MGB's manufacturer, but according to the brou·ha·ha made by the media this is what was mentioned

In formulating the LuH development budget, HAL had assumed that Turbomeca would design the new transmission system cheaply, to benefit from additional orders of hundreds of Shakti engines over the service life of the LuH.

Chief, no one is doubting Hal's ability to design a tranny in house. As a matter of fact if it weren't for HAL's efforts our jawans wouldn't have survived at the heights of Siachen where hal has made a significant contribution, along with its dedicatoin to ALH, Dhruv, LCH, LUH, and upgrading numeros crafts of the IAF, at times even surprsing the OEM after the refits. If you feel this discussion does not deserve a mention if its not technical, by all mean you may ignore my post, but I'm only trying to clear the hot air that has been shadowing hal in the negative light, right from the source to put an end to this sort of negativity once and for all. Thanks again for all your inputs and your service to the nation!

Craig,
I wonder whether the gist of my earlier response got across. What I was saying is :
-Its quite common for a helicopter to be designed with more than one engine variant. Mainly because the performance and handling is largely derived from the rotors – the engine delivers the power that drives the rotors, unlike in a fixed wing jet where it provides thrust. As I had said please recall that that a prototype ALH had flown with a T-800 engine. The ALH MGB was not modified for the T-800. So the ALH has essentially flown with three very different engines on the same MGB – the Shakti, the TM-333 2B2 & the T-800.

Given that sort of an experience on engine integration and fact that the ALH MGB is an in-house project, the LUH project (transmission, rotors, et al) could be viewed in the appropriate light.

[Hari Nair]

If that's the case then why LCH started doing all those stunts within few weeks of its first flight? Are we following all these testing rules/norms in case of LCH as well?

Or LCH was allowed to do all these because HAL was using the same proven power-train from ALH.

Anyhow when we looked at the testing cycle of ALH, LCA and LCH, LCH matured at a very sickening velocity.

-Sid

Good point there Sid!
You answered it in part when you guessed that part of the power train from the ALH.
The power train is not identical but is similar. The variations were already checked out on an ALH prototype.
The main handling and performance characteristics of a helicopter are determined largely by its rotors - and that's been very well proven as we all know.
We opened up the manoeuvre envelope fairly quickly because of that. Notwithstanding, every manoeuvre was being monitored in real-time as well as through recorded data to obviate surprises.

[Hari Nair]

I am presuming some of the monitoring is by telemetry and some by the pilot's reports. What is the role of a chase aircraft/helo if any?

Well a chase is used in certain critical tests - usually weapon firing trials (weapon separation from the prototype), certain peculiar trials where the crew in the prototype may require close external observation (and immediate advice) and so on.

[Hari Nair]

Hari Sir - One more request - Can you please shed some light on devlopment of LOH - HAL Light Observation Helicopter. When can we expect its first test flight... ?

Well the LUH project is definitely ON and should be covering the aspects of the older LOH proposal.

[Hari Nair]

AnuragK,
The gun you are reffering to is the M621, it is 20 mm X 102 mm automatic cannon cartridge of French origin developed by Nexter.

Many thanks for the info. Actually, there are several calibers of 20mm, so i just wanted to be sure because only the 102 mm has an acceptable ballistic profile arrived at after huge trials n errors of all the other calibers across continental Europe n US over the decades. But still, i personally think 25mm should have been the cal of choice per current military trends across the world. The 20mm has almost faded away. Perhaps there could be a reason for it gained from operational experience. Your opinion please.

Anurag,
Neither is the GIAT-NEXTER's M621 cannon outdated, nor is the 20 mm calibre 'fading away'. The cannon is known for its accuracy at range and like the heavier 30 mm Russki 2A40 cannon on the Mi-28 / Ka-50, is a lift from IFVs (Infantry Fighting Vehicles). Check out the list of helicopters using the M621 cannon to see what I mean.

[hiteshrai]

That's a Gatling Gun with tracer rounds. It's nothing special though. Just looks intimidating.

But still very visually pleasing!

Does any platform in the airforce or army have a mini-guns mounted on choppers? :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7ELhy4_0hM

Its a hell of an intimidating weapon.

[ArmenT]

Rahul, To get a better insight, check out how the Apaches fired the opening shots of Desert Storm (First Gulf War).

For those not in the know, the first shots fired in Desert Storm were Hellfire and Hydra rockets, that were used to take out a few Iraqi early warning radars. A few Sikorsky Pave Low IIIs went in with the Apaches. The Pave Lows had the precision navigation and top-of-the-line infrared sensor equipment, so they were in charge of designating the targets with lasers. After the targets were painted, the Apaches launched laser-guided missiles. Iraqis never saw what hit them.

[andy B]

Rahul, To get a better insight, check out how the Apaches fired the opening shots of Desert Storm (First Gulf War).

For those not in the know, the first shots fired in Desert Storm were Hellfire and Hydra rockets, that were used to take out a few Iraqi early warning radars. A few Sikorsky Pave Low IIIs went in with the Apaches. The Pave Lows had the precision navigation and top-of-the-line infrared sensor equipment, so they were in charge of designating the targets with lasers. After the targets were painted, the Apaches launched laser-guided missiles. Iraqis never saw what hit them.

Thanks Armen, so basically there were no hostile emitters to be tracked as khan designated everything with Infrared...suprisingly though early warning radars should have been able to atleast see them I do wonder if Queers ea6b, Ravens ef111, Jstars ityadi had already jammed everything from a standoff distance so that the radars were blind already....? then again it may well be that the choppers were flying nap of the earth and the radars were just not able to see them...?

[ArmenT]

^^^
The Pave Low IIIs were used precisely because they have terrain following radar and can fly really low to the ground in complete darkness. Iraqi radars never picked them up because of nap-of-the-earth flying. They guided the apaches in and marked all the targets, then the apaches popped up and launched their missiles practically simultaneously, so the stations had no chance to even warn each other that they were under attack.

Once the early warning radars were blinded, rest of allied airfleet practically sailed in en-masse.

[Bala Vignesh]

For those not in the know, the first shots fired in Desert Storm were Hellfire and Hydra rockets, that were used to take out a few Iraqi early warning radars. A few Sikorsky Pave Low IIIs went in with the Apaches. The Pave Lows had the precision navigation and top-of-the-line infrared sensor equipment, so they were in charge of designating the targets with lasers. After the targets were painted, the Apaches launched laser-guided missiles. Iraqis never saw what hit them.

Armen sir, weren't first shots taken by the F-117's at C-3 nodes???
I confess my knowledge is limited to the shows on discovery, et al.
Can you, please, provide some links for the same? Thanks

[andy B]

^^^
The Pave Low IIIs were used precisely because they have terrain following radar and can fly really low to the ground in complete darkness. Iraqi radars never picked them up because of nap-of-the-earth flying. They guided the apaches in and marked all the targets, then the apaches popped up and launched their missiles practically simultaneously, so the stations had no chance to even warn each other that they were under attack.

Once the early warning radars were blinded, rest of allied airfleet practically sailed in en-masse.

Aaaah so it was indeed nap of the earth...thanks for the info saar.

OT but I have always thought that the premature retirement of the Raven was really not called for given the significant capability that the Raven carried in terms of passive/active jaming ityadi...

[ArmenT]

Bala Vignesh: For your reading pleasure
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... 4a-ops.htm
http://www.mackenzieproductions.com/Apache_Attack.html <-- another detailed description of the mission.

[vasu_ray]

Hari Nair, couple of questions,

Are there any plans to reduce the blade noise? it seems to help with the surprise element

Will the pilot be able to 'park' the heli in a hovering position using an on-board RLG (Ring Laser Gyro) based reference system?

[Gaur]

Hari Nair Sir,
The Dhruv info page at HAL website states that Dhruv's service ceiling is 4500m.
http://www.hal-india.com/helicopter/products.asp
Surely that is wrong. I could not find any email address in the "contact us" section. So, could you please bring this to the attention of appropriate authority?
Thanks.

[Hari Nair]

Rahul, To get a better insight, check out how the Apaches fired the opening shots of Desert Storm (First Gulf War).

For those not in the know, the first shots fired in Desert Storm were Hellfire and Hydra rockets, that were used to take out a few Iraqi early warning radars. A few Sikorsky Pave Low IIIs went in with the Apaches. The Pave Lows had the precision navigation and top-of-the-line infrared sensor equipment, so they were in charge of designating the targets with lasers. After the targets were painted, the Apaches launched laser-guided missiles. Iraqis never saw what hit them.

That's right. The CO (Commanding Officer) of the Apache Battalion led the attack - then Col Richard A Cody. He went on to become the US Army Vice Chief-of-Staff and retired in 2008.

[Rahul M]

after reading your original post I was actually thinking along those lines.
this begs the question, is the LCH team looking at any ATGM options (since you mention HELINA might not be the default one) and may we know which options are being looked at ?

@ armen, thanks.

[Hari Nair]

Hari Nair Sir,
The Dhruv info page at HAL website states that Dhruv's service ceiling is 4500m.
http://www.hal-india.com/helicopter/products.asp
Surely that is wrong. I could not find any email address in the "contact us" section. So, could you please bring this to the attention of appropriate authority?
Thanks.

Technically they are right - the older 2B2 engine version ALH has that ceiling at maximum AUW (All Up Weight). Flights at higher altitudes are carried out at lower AUWs - which is the usual practise worldwide. I guess those marketing blokes are being honest to the point of fault.

[Hari Nair]

Hari Nair, couple of questions,

Are there any plans to reduce the blade noise? it seems to help with the surprise element

Will the pilot be able to 'park' the heli in a hovering position using an on-board RLG (Ring Laser Gyro) based reference system?

Auto-pilot coupled hover is no big deal these days and of course the ALH has it.

[Hari Nair]

Are there any additional stealth features planned for the second prototype? wrt tail assembly, is a fenestron-like design planned?
I follow the flights of the Dhruv each day (esp. the green camo) and think the LCH sounds different from some of the ALHs. Is that correct or am I hallucinating?
PS: Today one of the crafts was flying lower than usual and offered a great profile view. Each day is spent happily watching/following your colleagues flying around. Please thank all of them for that joy!

Yes indeed, the LCH does sound distinctly different from the ALH. The aerodynamic interaction of the rotors with the different fuselage may be a reason.

I don't believe we should mess around with that tail rotor. Presently, its an absolute aerodynamic wonder - gives some amazing Darth Vader-like control power to the pilot. No namby-pamby stuff like "loss of tail rotor control authority" or whatever that afflicts a whole heap of helicopters, including certain Russki & Yank types. This tail rotor delivers control power when demanded - I have never felt it giving up (or about to give up) in a mess of stall or vortex ring. Whilst flying as part of the first Sarang DisplayTeam, I recall that it was fairly easy to match other formation members turn rates during 'stall' (or torque) turns while pitched up in the near-vertical attitude at zero airspeed. In that very demanding condition, its pure tail rotor control power that comes into play. Its the same for single aircraft displays. All this is irrespective of prevailing wind conditions. And in that context, there was once, whilst displaying over the sea (near the coast-line), and carrying out a manoeuvre in adverse wind conditions, when the lead Sarang ALH encountered a particularly nasty gust of wind that threatened the purity of the display. I recall stomping on the rudder and the tail rotor held the ALH in-line as it always has. The combination of forces, however, led to a fairly nice crick in the neck to both of us (the young co-pilot, who now is a distinguished A2 QFI in the IAF) and yours truly. The end result was - nobody noticed anything amiss, but both of us required liberal doses of Iodex on our necks to recover for the next day's display sequence!

[PratikDas]

Hari Sir, is this what we can expect in the future?

Note: Image name indicates this is a mockup

[vasu_ray]

Hari Nair, couple of questions,

Are there any plans to reduce the blade noise? it seems to help with the surprise element

Will the pilot be able to 'park' the heli in a hovering position using an on-board RLG (Ring Laser Gyro) based reference system?

Auto-pilot coupled hover is no big deal these days and of course the ALH has it.

Thanks Hari Nair

regarding the silent blade, is this a fad or for real?
http://www.geekologie.com/2010/02/impre ... lent_h.php

On Naval vessels, can LCH cannon be used as an anti-torpedo CIWS?

[Hitesh]

After looking at the picture, would it be better to design retractable wheels and pods as to give more stealth characteristics?

[Raman]

After looking at the picture, would it be better to design retractable wheels and pods as to give more stealth characteristics?

Retractable undercarriages come with a large weight and complexity penalty (hydraulics, etc.) It will also reduce the survivability of the airframe as the gear will not be available to absorb forces in a crash. Clearly, the designers have concluded that the relatively low improvement in RCS is not worth the penalties.