PRC Economy and Industry: News and Discussions

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ Yup, from what I read also of the cheeni ekhanomy, the possibilities of collapse or serious disruptions are small only.

And they have a massive informal sector and severely under-report economic activity, expect at the provincial gubmint level where CCP officials' promotions depend on how much 'growth' they can and do show leveraging PSB taps for the purpose. And yes, cheena's national gdp is merely the sum total of its provincial figs which the provincial governers provide. Severely under-reported fits in this situ like a rose on a peepal tree.

Every now and then there're misguided attempts to imply some kinda 'race' b/w Yindia and cheena/ case in the point is the economist rag's recent farticle. Like sri jairam ramesh once said "there's no india-china race. We lost it long ago." bravo sir for saying it like it is. Inida should now only focus on knowing our india and improving the lot of common people. period.

[DavidD]

You have to look at things from an ultra-macro view in order to predict the course of a nation of the size of India or China. The truth is that both countries have an abundance of educated citizens who are not offered nearly the same opportunities as those in the developed nations, which results in far lower per capita productivity. As India and China catch up technologically to those nations, and as those technologies are increasingly utilized by their citizens, who are very well capable of using them, then there is no direction to go but up. Barring major sociopolitical turmoils, both countries will continue their ascend.

Now, you can't always make just enough of everything to satisfy demand. Sometimes something is produced more than needed, sometimes they're produced less than needed, and the penalties of these over/under-production will result in fluctuations in the general trend. However, by no means will the trend be bucked, again under stable sociopolitical environments. India's and China's economies will slow down when the technology and productivity levels of their citizens begin to approach developed nations' levels, as Japan's did, but both countries still have a LONG way to go to reach that point.

[chola]

^^^ Yup, from what I read also of the cheeni ekhanomy, the possibilities of collapse or serious disruptions are small only.

And they have a massive informal sector and severely under-report economic activity, expect at the provincial gubmint level where CCP officials' promotions depend on how much 'growth' they can and do show leveraging PSB taps for the purpose. And yes, cheena's national gdp is merely the sum total of its provincial figs which the provincial governers provide. Severely under-reported fits in this situ like a rose on a peepal tree.

Every now and then there're misguided attempts to imply some kinda 'race' b/w Yindia and cheena/ case in the point is the economist rag's recent farticle. Like sri jairam ramesh once said "there's no india-china race. We lost it long ago." bravo sir for saying it like it is. Inida should now only focus on knowing our india and improving the lot of common people. period.

Our race should have never been with China. It should have been with the other democracies of Asia -- Japan, South Korea or Taiwan.

Those are the kind of societies and wealth we should have been aiming for and competing against.

The fact that we are now "racing" with a communist nation whose policies had resulted in some of the most monumental human catastrophes in history is an indictment of how badly India's leaders had squandered away every advantage that Bharat had provided. It should have never been a contest.

[svinayak]

Our race should have never been with China. It should have been with the other democracies of Asia -- Japan, South Korea or Taiwan. Those are the kind of societies and wealth we should have been aiming for and competing against.

I agree with this. Indian leadership is behind in world affaris

[shyam]

But these countries are very tiny and are hooked strongly with US market for their growth. Their growth is not sustainable. We need to compete with US, but we don't have the advantage of owning global reserve currency.

[chola]

But these countries are very tiny and are hooked strongly with US market for their growth. Their growth is not sustainable. We need to compete with US, but we don't have the advantage of owning global reserve currency.

I'm tired of this same old argument on size. Japan is hardly tiny being twice the size of the UK in population. Exactly where is the cutoff point? If fifty million (SK's population) is "tiny" so we are to conclude that France and Italy are tiny?

Now let's stand back and look at the topic in this very thread.

China has a billion people and it is now the world's second largest economy. Why? How did this come to be when it was poorer than India the 1970s and under a government that created one disaster after another?

The reason should be obvious to anyone. It is because China had gained access to the American, European, Japanese, South Korean, Thai and every other democratic economy tied to the US system for the past three decades.

Markets that by all rights should have been India's were it not for the complete lack of geo-strategic understanding in Congress (yes, I blame this one party since they alone held a death grip on power during India's formative years.)

So what did the USSR give us again?

[shyam]

I'm tired of this same old argument on size. Japan is hardly tiny being twice the size of the UK in population.

What is happening to Japan for last two decades? It is not spiralling down, but the direction is obvious.

The reason should be obvious to anyone. It is because China had gained access to the American, European, Japanese, South Korean, Thai and every other democratic economy tied to the US system for the past three decades.

You need to ask one more question. People of all these countries were working very very hard, and were exporting very high quality products to US. What did they get in return?

Chinese worked hard for decades and made a forex reserve of $2.5T. When US had financial problem, they printed more than that in few days. So, the basic question is what exactly were these Chinese working so hard to earn?

[TonyMontana]

Chinese worked hard for decades and made a forex reserve of $2.5T. When US had financial problem, they printed more than that in few days. So, the basic question is what exactly were these Chinese working so hard to earn?

Sour grapes much? You can't tell me you'll rather India NOT have a forex of $2.5T?
To answer your question. What these Chinese worked so hard to earn is economic entanglement. Believe it or not the triple bottom lines of running a country is still profit, profit and profit. Profit for the people, profit for the nation and profit for the people running the nation. When you have financial entanglement, little things like geo-strategy can be negotiated.

[Purush]

WTF..this shyte never ends, does it........the cheenis just want to make a fast buck at any cost...f*** the children.. who cares

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... tion=world

A total of 103 tonnes of milk powder from four dairy brands in Hebei, Shanxi and Tianjin provinces were found to be laced with the industrial chemical melamine, in the latest case of food safety problems in the world's most populous country.

Authorities have detained 41 suspects in the case.

In July, samples of milk powder found in north-western provinces Gansu and Qinghai had levels of the chemical melamine up to 500 times beyond the permitted limit.

The Xinhua news agency says more than 124 tonnes of the milk powder in Qinghai have been seized since then and six people have been arrested.

In 2008, melamine in Chinese milk powder, which caused the deaths of at least six children and made nearly 300,000 children ill, sparked global and national outrage.

Melamine is an industrial chemical added to milk to fool inspectors by giving a misleadingly high protein level test reading.

Last Sunday, China's health ministry said that it had found no evidence of contamination in milk powder after reports said it had caused baby girls to show signs of premature sexual development.

[derkonig]

Baquis intermarry, Cheenis poison their kids...Ram banai jodi...now if only they can adopt/import each others best practices....

[Vasu]

WTF..this shyte never ends, does it........the cheenis just want to make a fast buck at any cost...f*** the children.. who cares

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010 ... tion=world

A total of 103 tonnes of milk powder from four dairy brands in Hebei, Shanxi and Tianjin provinces were found to be laced with the industrial chemical melamine, in the latest case of food safety problems in the world's most populous country.

Authorities have detained 41 suspects in the case.

In July, samples of milk powder found in north-western provinces Gansu and Qinghai had levels of the chemical melamine up to 500 times beyond the permitted limit.

The Xinhua news agency says more than 124 tonnes of the milk powder in Qinghai have been seized since then and six people have been arrested.

In 2008, melamine in Chinese milk powder, which caused the deaths of at least six children and made nearly 300,000 children ill, sparked global and national outrage.

Melamine is an industrial chemical added to milk to fool inspectors by giving a misleadingly high protein level test reading.

Last Sunday, China's health ministry said that it had found no evidence of contamination in milk powder after reports said it had caused baby girls to show signs of premature sexual development.

There are two beliefs that almost every forumer here seems to hold - Everything done in China is controlled by the party, and that everybody there is only living for profits.

There is a state in India called Uttar Pradesh where you will find synthetic milk, synthetic food items and spurious medicines worth thousands of crores, and very little government action to curb their trade and punish the wrongdoers. I only quote UP because there the situation is very grim. If anything, I would assume the authorities in China will be stricter in stricking down on the 'profit-seekers' than our own government and bureaucracy.

This thread is meant to cover China, but these thoughtless comments simply bring down the level of seriousness here, and I know most of these are only to go with the flow.

[chola]

What is happening to Japan for last two decades? It is not spiralling down, but the direction is obvious.

I would be very happy if India had achieved a per capita income of $36K and was slowly slowing down from that height for the past two decades.

Nothing grows for ever. So it is plain silly to point to Japan current status and say that its declining (but still immensely wealthy) living standards as proof that being in the US is a mistake.

You need to ask one more question. People of all these countries were working very very hard, and were exporting very high quality products to US. What did they get in return?

Chinese worked hard for decades and made a forex reserve of $2.5T. When US had financial problem, they printed more than that in few days. So, the basic question is what exactly were these Chinese working so hard to earn?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make. Those countries exported (and imported) to the US and to each other. They generated massive wealth trading with each other. That is what trade does. It creates wealth.

You rather that India not have $2.5 trillion in foreign reserves (equivalent to twice India's current nominal GDP)? Then I am flabbergasted and have no answer.

[Purush]

There is a state in India called Uttar Pradesh where you will find synthetic milk, synthetic food items and spurious medicines worth thousands of crores, and very little government action to curb their trade and punish the wrongdoers. I only quote UP because there the situation is very grim. If anything, I would assume the authorities in China will be stricter in stricking down on the 'profit-seekers' than our own government and bureaucracy.

This thread is meant to cover China, but these thoughtless comments simply bring down the level of seriousness here, and I know most of these are only to go with the flow.

Hehehe. Equal equal onlee, eh?
Why are you comparing a backward, corruption ridden state in a thurrd world SDRE country to the middle kingdom? Shouldn't you be benchmarking your commie paradise with the European and the American systems?
Please stop wasting bandwidth and making stupid, pointless OT comments; this is the PRC economy thread...not the UP Governance thread...if you want to do equal equal do it in Nukkad or the whines thread.

[svinayak]

x post

Having said all that, I still have to wonder why the cheenis held off teaching us another '62 type lesson. Something must be holding them back. Of course, they could attack tomorrow and rubbish this theory but IMO we have a very limited window to clean up our act (2015-2020) latest. Only.

That is part of the strategy. PRC is part of the larger global plan to control the world economy, currency and demand so that other countries (read India) fall in line with the global elites.

[TonyMontana]

Hehehe. Equal equal onlee, eh?
Why are you comparing a backward, corruption ridden state in a thurrd world SDRE country to the middle kingdom? Shouldn't you be benchmarking your commie paradise with the European and the American systems?
Please stop wasting bandwidth and making stupid, pointless OT comments; this is the PRC economy thread...not the UP Governance thread...if you want to do equal equal do it in Nukkad or the whines thread.

Of cause. The ChiCom running dogs of hate plots everyday in their evil lair, coming up with new and more sadistic ways to oppress the Chinese people. Further, their eventual plan is to "seed" the Chinese popluation with enough ChiCom drones, so the entire Chinese evilisation will become their mindless minions in their quest for world economic domination. And to suggest that there are social-econmic reasons that causes certain members of a particular community to do horrible things in the name of profit is to condone and support the actions of the CCP. That in itself is a crime against humanity.

[Suraj]

China's nine-day traffic jam stretches 100km

BEIJING (AFP) – Thousands of vehicles were bogged down Monday in a more than 100-kilometre (62-mile) traffic jam leading to Beijing that has lasted nine days and highlights China's growing road congestion woes.

The Beijing-Tibet expressway slowed to a crawl on August 14 due to a spike in traffic by cargo-bearing heavy trucks heading to the capital, and compounded by road maintenance work that began five days later, the Global Times said.

The state-run newspaper said the jam between Beijing and Jining city had given birth to a mini-economy with local merchants capitalising on the stranded drivers' predicament by selling them water and food at inflated prices.

That stretch of highway linking Beijing with the northern province of Hebei and the Inner Mongolia region has become increasingly prone to massive jams as the capital of more than 20 million people sucks in huge shipments of goods.

[wrdos]

Yeah, once more a news justified the huge Chinese investment on its railway network.

China's nine-day traffic jam stretches 100km

BEIJING (AFP) – Thousands of vehicles were bogged down Monday in a more than 100-kilometre (62-mile) traffic jam leading to Beijing that has lasted nine days and highlights China's growing road congestion woes.

The Beijing-Tibet expressway slowed to a crawl on August 14 due to a spike in traffic by cargo-bearing heavy trucks heading to the capital, and compounded by road maintenance work that began five days later, the Global Times said.

The state-run newspaper said the jam between Beijing and Jining city had given birth to a mini-economy with local merchants capitalising on the stranded drivers' predicament by selling them water and food at inflated prices.

That stretch of highway linking Beijing with the northern province of Hebei and the Inner Mongolia region has become increasingly prone to massive jams as the capital of more than 20 million people sucks in huge shipments of goods.

[abhischekcc]

How come China gets such big jams despite such massive investments in roadways?? Confused

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ sources tell me that the bigger rigs and trucks tend to stutter ans stop due to melamine contaminated diesel only...../sarc off.

[Purush]

Of cause. The ChiCom running dogs of hate plots everyday in their evil lair, coming up with new and more sadistic ways to oppress the Chinese people. Further, their eventual plan is to "seed" the Chinese popluation with enough ChiCom drones, so the entire Chinese evilisation will become their mindless minions in their quest for world economic domination. And to suggest that there are social-econmic reasons that causes certain members of a particular community to do horrible things in the name of profit is to condone and support the actions of the CCP. That in itself is a crime against humanity.

In what way is the above related to the PRC economy?
Are you trying to derail the thread?
This khujli when reading any -ve news about china is typical, predictable CCP drone behavior. Nothing we haven't seen before here. You may want to avoid it if you wish to have a long and fruitful stay here on these forums. Admins don't take kindly to thread derailment.

[shyam]

I would be very happy if India had achieved a per capita income of $36K and was slowly slowing down from that height for the past two decades.

Nothing grows for ever. So it is plain silly to point to Japan current status and say that its declining (but still immensely wealthy) living standards as proof that being in the US is a mistake.

Certainly, I wish India also had high per capita income. But my point is that the massive export oriented growth is not sustainable and not desirable. 30 years of growth followed by 20 years of stagnation (actually deflation) for a highly industrialized country, much before WW2, is very significant. Japan did not experience a tailspin because its govt took loads of debt (power of fiat money).

Those countries exported (and imported) to the US and to each other. They generated massive wealth trading with each other. That is what trade does. It creates wealth.

Countries need to trade, they need to import to consume (not just to re-export) as they export. Sometimes this wealth is an illusion when you look at its source and long term effects. What we see in modern trade is loads of currency manipulation. If those countries were exporting to receive huge bundles of (electronic?) paper that can be printed at the whims of some people, I think there are waiting for big surprises in future.

You rather that India not have $2.5 trillion in foreign reserves (equivalent to twice India's current nominal GDP)? Then I am flabbergasted and have no answer.

I certainly do not want India to accumulate $2.5T that can be printed any time by few previleged people as they wish. We need to export to meet our import requirements, and add some cushion to weather unexpected crises. This way we will retain our financial indpendence. Instead of accumulating somebody else' fiat currency, I would prefer India to make more credit available to Indians so that we can have both producers and consumers within India. (Of course, I expect the officials to take care of associated problems). India has a long way to go, but I think it is on the right path.

[TonyMontana]

In what way is the above related to the PRC economy?
Are you trying to derail the thread?
This khujli when reading any -ve news about china is typical, predictable CCP drone behavior. Nothing we haven't seen before here. You may want to avoid it if you wish to have a long and fruitful stay here on these forums. Admins don't take kindly to thread derailment.

My bad. I was actually defending another member Vasu from you(Purush). I'm sure Vasu don't need my white knighting. My sarcasim was aimed entirely at you. Mods please delete if needed.

But I hope you can still take this out of it:

there are social-econmic reasons that causes certain members of a particular community to do horrible things in the name of profit

[Purush]

But I hope you can still take this out of it:

there are social-econmic reasons that causes certain members of a particular community to do horrible things in the name of profit

To repeat myself: this khujli when reading any -ve news about china is typical, predictable CCP drone behavior. Nothing we haven't seen before here.
This is my last post on this.

[Gus]

How come China gets such big jams despite such massive investments in roadways?? Confused

apparently, some construction work has closed part or all of some stretches. poor planning.

[Suraj]

Purush and TonyMontana: I hope those are indeed your lasts posts on the (off)topic here

[Gus]

some reports say that the jam will go well into september.

The Beijing area seems to be a bottleneck for all that traffic north (bearing raw materials) to move to southern/coastal industrial cities. Wonder what the impact will be on the Supply Chain lead times..will they get a whiplash effect and have longer delays at the endpoint? no christmas gifts..lol.

[Sanjay M]

Some are claiming that illegal coal-mining industry is putting a lot of heavy trucks on the road to haul the stuff, and this is adding to the congestion:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/201 ... coal-trade

[Vasu]

There is a state in India called Uttar Pradesh where you will find synthetic milk, synthetic food items and spurious medicines worth thousands of crores, and very little government action to curb their trade and punish the wrongdoers. I only quote UP because there the situation is very grim. If anything, I would assume the authorities in China will be stricter in stricking down on the 'profit-seekers' than our own government and bureaucracy.

This thread is meant to cover China, but these thoughtless comments simply bring down the level of seriousness here, and I know most of these are only to go with the flow.

Hehehe. Equal equal onlee, eh?
Why are you comparing a backward, corruption ridden state in a thurrd world SDRE country to the middle kingdom? Shouldn't you be benchmarking your commie paradise with the European and the American systems?
Please stop wasting bandwidth and making stupid, pointless OT comments; this is the PRC economy thread...not the UP Governance thread...if you want to do equal equal do it in Nukkad or the whines thread.

Thanks for the response Purush. Thats exactly what I was talking about.

I've been on this forum since 2002, Purush, and i've seen over the years how healthy discussions have given way to juvenile/derogatory comments simply to go with the flow.

You missed my point completely. Its not about equal-equal, but about adding value to the discussion, or at least, talking sense. Just because I don't post regularly on the forum anymore, you are pouncing on me and accusing me of being a Paki/Chinese/whatever. I'm been a regular reader though, but I guess I just couldn't bring myself down to the namecalling and racially insulting posts that are so common here now.

[vina]

Hmm. Something doesn't sound right here.

Chinese Traffic jam stretches 9 days 100 kms

Very fishy. It is incredible that any highway authority will allow a traffic jam to continue for 9 days and stretch over 100kms. Why even the incompetent ones in India wont allow that. They would have blocked the entrance to the highway and cleared it out and put out warnings of delays and told the traffic to stay at home! Why even the incompetent commie govt of West Bengal will do better than this.

Maybe the "command and control" and "propaganda ministry" didn't want to "lose face" and clammed up hoping the bad news will go away and when it blew up to a huge proportion are trying to put positive spin on it. I dont buy the "roadworks" / "repairs" are the cause of this. After all,the pictures show only a dual carriageway 2 lane highway. I am sure some bridge or some major show piece thing collapsed and there is no way around it to preserve Honor & Dignity and "face" and there is a feverish attempt on to repair/put it back at the earliest.

[amol.p]

China to build 100 GW of hydropower in next 10 yrs

China will put 100 gigawatts of new hydroelectric capacity into operation over the next 10 years in order to meet its renewable energy goals.

China's total hydropower capacity reached 200 gigawatts on Wednesday, Zhang said before a ceremony marking the milestone. Beijing plans to raise the proportion of non-fossil fuels in its total primary energy mix to 15 percent by 2020.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 430836.cms

[Hari Seldon]

^^^Wow.

Time to learn from PRC. Am told our total hydel potential is like 100 GW. Even 75% of that operational in 15 yrs would be awesome, IMO.

[starek]

sir, if they manage to turn the economy inwards, it follows that the chinese will get into self actualisation mode. i do not think that the CCP would desire the chinese people moving on that path. right now the maximum wealth is concentrated in the hands of persons who are lineal descendants of communist party leaders.

The scions of the party might be the wealthiest members but their middle class is by no means small. The latest ADB report puts the Chinese middle class at over 810 million with annual spending power of $1.8 trillion. By comparison, our numbers are 205 million with yearly expenditures of $256 billion.

As long as the communist party is getting wealthy on the current path they will not veer from it. But it would be a mistake to believe that it is not making the rest of Chinese wealthier as well.

According to Indian middle-class standard (family income Rs.37500 per year), all of chinese people are in middle-class. The guaranteed minimum income is CNY250(poorest province) ~ CNY450 (Shanghai and Beijing) per month per capita, if one person do not reach the minimum income ,govt. must make up the balance.

[starek]

Our race should have never been with China. It should have been with the other democracies of Asia -- Japan, South Korea or Taiwan.

Those are the kind of societies and wealth we should have been aiming for and competing against.

The fact that we are now "racing" with a communist nation whose policies had resulted in some of the most monumental human catastrophes in history is an indictment of how badly India's leaders had squandered away every advantage that Bharat had provided. It should have never been a contest.

Japan, S.Korea and Taiwan were facism and/or autocratic countries when they edged themself into the developed countries.

Look the worldmap in the beginning of 20th centry and the beginning of 21th centry, developed countries are developed countries, developing countries are still developing countries. Only 4 developing countries/areas --Taiwan, S.Korea, Singapore and Hongkong became developed, sadness all of them were autocratic countries, Singapore and Hongkong are still autocratic now.

[TonyMontana]

NYT Oped: For China, Will Money Bring Power?

Short answer happens to be no.

The long amswer happens to be no, but it sure helps.

[vina]

Hmm. Only sane reason I can find for the traffic jam.

Refusing to Detour

[niran]

sadness all of them were autocratic countries, Singapore and Hongkong are still autocratic now.

Hongkong is a part of PRC hence Communocratic.
Singapore is Democratic, not Autocratic.

[wrdos]

‘Straddling Bus’ Offered as a Traffic Fix in China
By BETTINA WASSENER and ANDREA DENGm, New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/18/busin ... bus&st=cse#

HONG KONG — What do you do if your roads are congested and polluted? Try designing a vehicle that takes up no road space. And make it partly solar powered.

A company in the southern Chinese town of Shenzhen has done just that. To address the country’s problems with traffic and air quality, Shenzhen Huashi Future Parking Equipment has developed a decidedly odd-looking, extra-wide and extra-tall vehicle that can carry up to 1,200 passengers.

Though it is called the “straddling bus,” Huashi’s invention resembles a train in many respects — but it requires neither elevated tracks nor extensive tunneling. Its passenger compartment spans the width of two traffic lanes and sits high above the road surface, on a pair of fencelike stilts that leave the road clear for ordinary cars to pass underneath. It runs along a fixed route.

Huashi Future Parking’s outsize invention — six meters, or about 20 feet, wide — is to be powered by a combination of municipal electricity and solar power derived from panels mounted on the roofs of the vehicles and at bus stops.

[vina]

China's Growth Leads to Problems down the road

Something is fundamentally wrong with the Chinese economy. From what is written it seems that the Traffic Jams are not going anywhere. The reason seems to be moving coal for power plants by trucks!. I cant believe it. It is done nowhere in the world. Bulk commodities are never moved by road over any big distance but rather by rail or water. There is no other way of doing it. For eg a moderately sized 60,000 ton bulk coal carrier / one train load will take around 1200 of those trucks off the roads . I cant believe that the Chinese rail system cannot put some 10 extra trains between Mongolia and Beijing!. Even for oil and gas, the best way to transport is via pipelines which are laid across country as a web and not by road/rail!

Best of all, haven't the Chinese heard of pit head generation ? It is far easier to build ultramega pit head stations in inner mongolia right over the coal seams and transport the electricity via HVDC transmission to the consumption centers.

In India power plants are simply not allowed to come up until the fuel and infrastructure linkages are in place. For an economy like the US based on rational costing for inputs and rational market determined pricing for power, such kind of harebrained schemes like transporting bulk cargoes by truck is simply not on. Cant happen.

I think it is basically because of the subsidized coal and hence subsidized power and cheap fuel, we have monstrosities like this Chinese jam happening. No wonder they are the largest consumers of power, coal and a skyrocketing import of petroleum fuels and other things. Sorry. We this cant last and a breaking point will be reached when the system will have to collapse. We saw it earlier in the Soviet Union. In the end, it is the most EFFICIENT economy that is sustainable and China has all the hall marks of a massive state directed wasteful economy that simply wastes most of it's resources and such terribly low factor productivity. Econ 101 I am afraid. Not sustainable.

[manish]

China's Growth Leads to Problems down the road

In India power plants are simply not allowed to come up until the fuel and infrastructure linkages are in place.

Very true. One can find long lists of cos waiting for coal linkages on GoI websites. You either get your coal from PSUs like MCL,WCL etc or you get permission to use imported coal in a blended format along with domestic coal. Even then the govt maintains strict control over blending (i.e. import) levels. Of course once imported, the coal will move on rails from ports to power plants.

And this precisely is the reason behind the massive spurt in mega thermal power plants planned along the coast - you place your plant close to the coast so that the coal covers minimum distance off the ships. Case in point is the setup in and around Krishnapatnam Port in AP - apparently multiple thermal power stations adding upto an annual coal consumption of 60 million tonnes are planned there to exploit the available port access!

Wonder why the PRC wunderkids (whose specialty seems to be top-notch infra!!) overlooked this simple aspect that even boor SDREs can see. As vina saar alludes to above, it must be the unhealthy level of subsidies - else the total logistics cost and time taken by the cargo to reach factory doorstep would make truck/road transport options downright unviable given the massive volumes (600mmtpa+!!) involved.

[wrdos]

It seems to me you have a faith "China will collapse", and then searching the "reasons" everyday, hehe. It is you who were laughing Chinese effort of expanding expressway network and railway network, since "they will be empty". And it is also you now laughing the congestion happening on Chinese expressway which would be empty as you predicted.

OK, let me to give some explanations.

- China railways, especially in that region, is delivering coal, and at a scale many in this forum could hardly imagine. The railway around that region is among the most modern railways in the world.
- Even so it can not meet the needs of the fast increasing economy. So many people have to hire trucks to transport their coal, through the nation's vast expressway network.
- And it is one of the main reasons why China is aggressively expanding the railway network now. In fact the Chinese railway network is expected to grow to 100,000km from the current 86,000km within 2 years. You can just wait and see.

OK, and it is why i am confident of China always, the reasons:
- Compared with talking, Chinese prefer doing;
- Compared with expressions like "will, would, can achieve/do what what", Chinese prefer "we are doing what what". And even Chinese using the expression "will", a time scale is always added;
- If Chinese has a rival, e.g., the US or Japan, the Chinese calculate everyday what we have to DO NOW to surpass the country. Chinese never take a lazy chance like,

"OK, anyway the US (or Japan) will collapse one day......."

China's Growth Leads to Problems down the road

Something is fundamentally wrong with the Chinese economy. From what is written it seems that the Traffic Jams are not going anywhere. The reason seems to be moving coal for power plants by trucks!. I cant believe it. It is done nowhere in the world. Bulk commodities are never moved by road over any big distance but rather by rail or water. There is no other way of doing it. For eg a moderately sized 60,000 ton bulk coal carrier / one train load will take around 1200 of those trucks off the roads . I cant believe that the Chinese rail system cannot put some 10 extra trains between Mongolia and Beijing!. Even for oil and gas, the best way to transport is via pipelines which are laid across country as a web and not by road/rail!

Best of all, haven't the Chinese heard of pit head generation ? It is far easier to build ultramega pit head stations in inner mongolia right over the coal seams and transport the electricity via HVDC transmission to the consumption centers.

In India power plants are simply not allowed to come up until the fuel and infrastructure linkages are in place. For an economy like the US based on rational costing for inputs and rational market determined pricing for power, such kind of harebrained schemes like transporting bulk cargoes by truck is simply not on. Cant happen.

I think it is basically because of the subsidized coal and hence subsidized power and cheap fuel, we have monstrosities like this Chinese jam happening. No wonder they are the largest consumers of power, coal and a skyrocketing import of petroleum fuels and other things. Sorry. We this cant last and a breaking point will be reached when the system will have to collapse. We saw it earlier in the Soviet Union. In the end, it is the most EFFICIENT economy that is sustainable and China has all the hall marks of a massive state directed wasteful economy that simply wastes most of it's resources and such terribly low factor productivity. Econ 101 I am afraid. Not sustainable.