Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Aug 09, 2010

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Aug 2010 21:25

It is likely that these tunnels have been watched for a long time both by Indian and US agencies. Making their presence public may be a deliberate leak. I think India has humint in the area better than the US and aerial photography of the area is available hi res to India.

Why reach conclusions when we do not have information? I think the days are gone when we sit on BRF and imagine we are the only patriots and brainy guys in India.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 29 Aug 2010 21:33

^^^

But, but, but we have so many pee ech dees in maths, phyziks, and engeenering!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Aug 2010 21:48

WRT the tunnel thing in POK and Indian intel, let us not jump the gun. How do we know that India does not know about these tunnels? Or the real purpose? These tunnels are not something one can mask. Same for movement of people and heavy equipment. If jingoes on this forum can pin-point these using open source satellite infra, guess what specialist with dedicated resources can do?

Here are couple of reports from previous year on Indian concern on Chinese infra Projects in POK:

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_in ... ok_1299135

In apparent retaliation to Chinese criticism of prime minister Manmohan Singh’s visit to Arunachal Pradesh earlier this month, the ministry of external affairs warned Beijing against going ahead with its massive hydel projects in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir (PoK). So far, the protests against China’s $1.5 billion investment plans in PoK have been directed at Pakistan. This may be the first time China is being warned directly.

http://hindu.com/2009/10/15/stories/200 ... 180100.htm

I think there is enough cognizance on the matter of "Infra Projects" in POK.

As for China, my POV is that China is playing a long term game here. They may have gamed that munna is going to loose control on the peripheral regions away from Punjab - and have moved in to stake claim to POK in future. POK is exceptionally important to the Chinese - (a) Land access to the warm waters. This is an extremely senstivie and vulnerable area and needs to be under physical control - after all, India is sitting next door. (b) Launch pad for the soft underbelly of China - Xingian. These areas cannot be allowed to controlled/accessed by Yahoos. (c) Boxes in India on the Aksai Chin Front. IMO, AP is just a bargaining card for China - their real interest is in keeping Aksai Chin with them.

PS:Got hold of a book (and by pure accident - was searching for a book on Building bye-Laws) by the name of India China Boundary in Kashmir by Hriday Nath Kaul. Must say, I'm really blown away. Extremely detailed. A bit hampered by lack of detailed maps (there are few) but very interesting. Will post necessary excerpts or summary as I read through. Guess, could not have come at the right time.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 29 Aug 2010 21:53

AnimeshP wrote: Apologies if posted earlier ... I take back everything I ever said about Ekta Kapoor and her ilk ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6AbRYaf58c

Outrage in Pakistan as court blacks out Indian channels http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 449272.cms

The stations off air as a result are predominantly Indian news, entertainment and sports channels, as also a clutch of other foreign and local entertainment, sports and religious networks.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 29 Aug 2010 22:01

Taking begging to a new level, demanding money as if its their god given right

Pakistani Twitter user gets Tom Cruise to bail out flood victims http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 456403.cms

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Aug 2010 22:13

WRT the tunnel thing in POK and Indian intel, let us not jump the gun. How do we know that India does not know about these tunnels? Or the real purpose? These tunnels are not something one can mask. Same for movement of people and heavy equipment. If jingoes on this forum can pin-point these using open source satellite infra, guess what specialist with dedicated resources can do?

Rohitvats-ji,
What you mention is true but what exactly has GoI been doing about this issue ( other than raise a whimper or two from time to time)?

Where are the "mysterious" accidents happening on some PLA soldiers working there, some machinery falling off the cliff without reason, PLA being kidnapped by "local rebels" etc? At least if not so drastic,where are the constant leaks about detailed info of whats happening in Gilgit-Baltistan tunnels( which would embarrass Pak and China) constantly splashed across Indian newspapers quoting "sources in PMO" etc which cause public opinion in India to rally against this project etc ( just a news report or two every 4-5 months, that too because of a NYT report doesnt count for too much) ?

What is the point of knowing what is going on and doing nothing about it until it is toolate and everything the Chinese wanted has already happened?

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 29 Aug 2010 22:31

What is the evidence that the tunnels in POK are even military installations, never mind missile silos? Unless they are preparing some spectacular folly like Gola's putting the Northern Flight Infantry on the high ridges in winter, I don't see the point of putting military stuff in such inaccessible locations. They could put the missiles in some narrow valley and they would be much safer from prying satellite eyes or fighter planes or supersonic missile strikes.

Probably these are indeed hydroelectric projects. The PLA presence is because the PLA is the largest construction contractor in the PRC, and who else can supervise forced labor in such places by the residents of the Gobi LeEducation Camp?

PLA would have occupied parts of POK because they see what anyone else can see - Pakistan is collapsing, and any day, a Balwaristan gang could declare independence just by cutting a couple of roads and putting mortar fire into a couple of airports. And then India might walk in.

The trouble as always is that China builds infrastructure in the Himalayas and Tibetan plateau. India lags far behind. We need a few expressway tunnels cutting across into Northern Kerala (aka Tibet) so that ppl can regularly visit Mt. Kalyanikutty Resorts and the Kishkindha Valley.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 29 Aug 2010 22:38

Spot on N.

Although like those Cuban construction troops in Grenada, I suspect the PLA brought their rifles along with their shovels. Much like the PLA in Sudan.

Nevertheless this makes it that much more unlikely that India will be able to reunite G-B with the state of Jammu & Kashmir

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 29 Aug 2010 23:35

sum wrote:
WRT the tunnel thing in POK and Indian intel, let us not jump the gun. How do we know that India does not know about these tunnels? Or the real purpose? These tunnels are not something one can mask. Same for movement of people and heavy equipment. If jingoes on this forum can pin-point these using open source satellite infra, guess what specialist with dedicated resources can do?
Rohitvats-ji,
What you mention is true but what exactly has GoI been doing about this issue ( other than raise a whimper or two from time to time)?

What is the point of knowing what is going on and doing nothing about it until it is toolate and everything the Chinese wanted has already happened?

response here from the GOI

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 29 Aug 2010 23:55

Nevertheless this makes it that much more unlikely that India will be able to reunite G-B with the state of Jammu & Kashmir

Realistically, such events as "reclaiming" G-B and Askai Chin are not going to occur, regardless of the breakup of Pakistan, unless the PRC is in the throes of a revolution and relinquishes ambitions in its southwest corner. IOW, unless Pakistan is dead, Tibet breaks free and Xinjiang is going that way, so that the PLA does not have much reason to fight for the Xinjiang-Tibet Railway/Road. It's nice to dream of seamless access from Kanyakumari to Kyrgystan, but it is not going to happen through all Indian Territory any time soon. Maybe the region will some day become so calm and Pakistan-free that the borders are open all the way and ppl don't have much cause to care what nation's borders they are inside.

The main thing I get from that report of the 11K PLA there is that the PRC appears to have written off Pakistan as a viable entity, and made good plans for the transition, while India may be too busy in helping towards the events needed to arrive at the happy state of Pakistanlessness.

Also, look at it this way: What would be PRC reaction to the news of all the hectic Indian road-building in Afghanistan, probably dominating access to the Khyber Pass as well as the Northern regions such as Kunduz? I mean, look at all the reports that the Indo-TIBETAN Border Police is in Afghanistan! To them it should look like India is planning to dominate the gateway to Central and West Asia when Pakistan collapses. China has strong interests in Iran, for instance, and India in Afghanistan would dominate any trans-Afghan pipeline and road/rail traffic. And if India dominates Afghanistan, then the CAR nations would open up more access to India (some already have..) so India could do a lot of mischief right up the entire western border of PRC, including stirring up Xinjiang, adding to the long-held paranoia about Indian intentions towards Tibet. Add to that the reports of the all the US-India collaboration, and consider that the US has already bought access to most CAR nations, and you can see it all adding up to some serious tummy acid in Beijing.

Not to argue the case of the PRC, but just to take great joy at the thought that the PRC fatcats also have some reason to stay up nights.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Aug 2010 00:02

enqyoob wrote: Nevertheless this makes it that much more unlikely that India will be able to reunite G-B with the state of Jammu & Kashmir

Realistically, such events as "reclaiming" G-B and Askai Chin are not going to occur, regardless of the breakup of Pakistan, unless the PRC is in the throes of a revolution and relinquishes ambitions in its southwest corner. IOW, unless Tibet breaks free and Xinjiang is going that way, so that the PLA does not have much reason to fight for the Xinjiang-Tibet Railway/Road. It's nice to dream of seamless access from Kanyakumari to Kyrgystan, but it is not going to happen through all Indian Territory any time soon. Maybe the region will some day become so calm and Pakistan-free that the borders are open all the way and ppl don't have much cause to care what nation's borders they are inside.

Such projects are 100 years or 200 years projects. They do not happen within a short period.
The partition of India and the closed borders between India and Pakistan changed the dynamics of the central asia suddenly after centuries of connection. The previous change was created by Russians in early 1700-1800s when they changed the demographics by removing the Indian merchants and settling russian slavs in that area.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Aug 2010 00:58

Pakistan - The Victim of Suicidal Politics?

After using the poor, illiterate and excited unemployed youth in their terrorist activities, the extremist and fundamental forces in Pakistan are now using innocent children in their unholy suicidal mission. These children aged 3 to 7 are being introduced with AK 47 and bombs. In many secret places of Pakistan, these children are given dangerous suicide attack training.
These children are taken away from their poor parents in the name of religion. For this, they are paid a meagre amount of money and are told that either their child will become a victor or a martyr. The parents are told that in both the cases their child will go to 'heaven'. Certainly these facts have made Pakistan feel ashamed.

At least they get 72 in jannat, on earth they will be lynched

The biggest worry is that to what extent this Pak-based nursery of terrorism will be harmful to Pakistan itself, Islam, humanity and the entire world. ]

Not "will be" it has already harmed the world and caused enormous socio economic costs as well which have to be paid by the bakis.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Aug 2010 01:54

The previous change was created by Russians in early 1700-1800s when they changed the demographics by removing the Indian merchants and settling russian slavs in that area.

It is in Indian interests for Russian interests to be rolled north of Kazan. A dormant Russia is the key reason why PRC is flexing it's muscles in Asia.

mayo · Post by **mayo** » 30 Aug 2010 03:19

Pak cricketers only crave money, women, food: Bookie

Rediff Linky http://cricket.rediff.com/report/2010/a ... bookie.htm

Ramiz Raza Interview. The guy is disturbed http://www.cricinfo.com/ci/content/curr ... 74982.html

From Rediff

A lot of Pakistani cricketers are "just looking for money, women and food" and very few of them have any love for the game, claims the bookie arrested for alleged 'spot-fixing' in the England-Pakistan Test in London [ Images ].

Mazhar Majeed, the bookie who has made sensational claims of bribing Pakistani cricketers for bowling no balls in a sting operation by a British tabloid, claimed a lot of players were only bothered about money.

"You'll find there's only a few players who are genuine and who are actually here for the love of the game, and there's not many, believe me. A lot of them are just looking for money, women and food," Majeed has been quoted as saying in the video tapes of the sting released by The News of the World.

"How much they're getting paid is a joke. I came from a football background and I can see the difference in football and cricket. It's huge."

Majeed claimed cheating was not confined to match-fixing alone and that ball tampering had also become regular in the Pakistan team.

"I used to go out on the pitch to give the players their drinks. Whenever we couldn't get a wicket I'd have a lump of Vaseline on my hand. Shake their hand.

"They'd put it on one side of the ball and the ball would suddenly start in-swinging," he said.

Majeed revealed that he wanted Salman Butt [ Images ] to continue as captain for long as possible.

"I give out the information the night before or morning. What's going to happen at the end of the fourth day? But now we are not going to do any results for the next two games because we want Salman Butt to be captain long term," Majeed stated.

© Copyright 2010 PTI. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of PTI content, including by framing or similar means, is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 30 Aug 2010 03:43

Paul wrote:
The previous change was created by Russians in early 1700-1800s when they changed the demographics by removing the Indian merchants and settling russian slavs in that area.
It is in Indian interests for Russian interests to be rolled north of Kazan. A dormant Russia is the key reason why PRC is flexing it's muscles in Asia.

Sorry, is there a typo? Do you mean it is not in Indian interests?

Most of the conflict between the PRC and USSR from 1958-1988 was over who was going to lead the international communist movement. Mao thought he rather than Khrushchev should have succeeded Stalin as the central figure in world communism.

Plus when the Soviets declared after Czechoslovakia in 1968 that they had the right to replace the leadership in 'deviant' communist states, Mao assumed the Soviets might come for him next.

Deng wanted to replace the Soviets as the chief patrons of communist parties in Vietnam, Cambodia, Mongolia and Afghanistan. The collapse of communism as an international force made the competition moot.

The issue that frightens the Russian public more than the Russian state is Chinese migration in to the Far East. So far the Kremlin doesnt seem to have any serious worries about a Chinese land grab, and despite historical disputes the PRC is not behaving in the way it does with Taiwan, the South China Sea states, India, Japan, etc. They have shown no real interest in opening another front, especially when Russian military technology is something they will still need to buy for another decade or so.

The closest thing to competition between Russia and China today is the new great game influence and control over oil and gas infrastructure in Central Asia, and its very low key, nothing like the Russian-Western competition over the same.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 30 Aug 2010 03:54

shiv wrote:It is likely that these tunnels have been watched for a long time both by Indian and US agencies. Making their presence public may be a deliberate leak. I think India has humint in the area better than the US and aerial photography of the area is available hi res to India.

Why reach conclusions when we do not have information? I think the days are gone when we sit on BRF and imagine we are the only patriots and brainy guys in India.

Since we at BRF know about these "tunnels", the GOI must also know. But where is the hue and cry ?, not even a token proforma complaint by MMS ?. This seems to be more serious than the routine border encroachments by the Chinese and we have not even bothered to

Can you imagine 10,000 Indian soldiers in Tibet, and China not uttering a word, heck, I cant even imagine MMS in tawang.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 30 Aug 2010 04:23

From orbat.com on the tunnels:
It seems the chinese are mining there, for among other things Uranium.

# Sanjith Menon saysThere are unconfirmed reports especially from the Balwaristan National Front, they suggest that there are high grade Uranium deposits in the region and the Chinese are there to exploit it. Here is the news put on the BNF site on Friday, July 16, 2010:
# In Choporsan, Gojal, Hunza of Gilgit, 80 Sq Kilo area of mine which is being used in space technology has been given to China by Pakistan. In Shimshal of Hunza near China border (this is the area where 2500 Sq Miles area has already been ceded to China by Pakistan in 1963 by violating UNCIP resolution). Pakistani goverment has given about 1200 sq km (30% total area) leased out for Pakistani forces. On high pasture of Chhalt Nagar a strayed missile has hit Chinese work mining area recently.
# In Gandai of Yasen, 4000 Blast were done by Chinese Military Engineers in 2008, as result glacier burst and local people climbed up the mountain and kicked them out Chinese. Pakistani forces arrested local people, tortured and put 22 local leaders behind bars.
# The translation, unfortunately, is bad.
# The presence of Uranium comes in from the same source.
http://www.balawaristan.net/index.php/L ... umbai.html (Editor's note: we could not get the URL to work.)

This is Indian territory that the chinese are seeking to exploit. The area legally acceded to India. China along with Pakistan is in violation of UN resolutions if the chinese try and alter the topography or remove anything from that area.
This explains why Pakistan brought that area under Pakistan's rule a few months ago. They have sought to project Gilgit-Balistan as being seperate from the rest of POK (the azad kashmir area). Pakistan knows that should an open conflict ever break out in the J&K area, the part of POK they call 'azad kashmir' will be in Indian hands in short order. Pakistan's position there is militarily unsustainable, and will not be able to withstand and all out Indian onslaught should India decide to push matters. But Gilgit Balistan is a different matter altogether. The vastness of that area, coupled with poor road infrasturcture there will make progress for any Indian assault very difficult and slow (not that Pakistan has the ability to interdict eitherway). But Pakistan has sought to counter any such possibility by inviting the Chinese in. China seeks to create a buffer to further protect Xinjinag from the Uhigurs and the Pakistani Jihadis. China also seeks control here to preempt any US / NATO moves in the future to bring the revolution to xinjiang, they probably think that the himalayas in the northern areas with limited roads and impassable glaciers serves as a choke point to regulate contact between the Uhigurs and the pakistanis.

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 30 Aug 2010 05:03

When other nations have encircled PRC, it has reacted sharply. The Korean war was faught by PRC because PRC did not want the Americans so near in Korea. Recently, they forced the Americans to conduct war excercies on the Sea further away. One of the reason for Vietnam war was to test/curtail USSR influence there.

Hypothetically, if IA was to move into Northern Burma on the PRC border, PRC would react very stongly to such flanking moves.

I cannot imagine what the GOI is thinking. Why they do not regularly assert soverignty over NA and protest such moves is unpardonable. When the floods and earthquake happened, India did not force a humanitarian drops in areas which it should be claiming as India proper.

All this basically means that India's claim on NA is perfunctory and non-serious. Nations need to continously assert claims (As PRC does on Taiwan, Tibet, Arunachel) and even TSP does on Kashmir.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Aug 2010 05:41

http://news.in.msn.com/international/ar ... id=4320288
Top Punjabi Taliban commander shot dead in NW Pakistan

Islamabad, Aug 29 (PTI) Six militants, including a top Punjabi Taliban commander, have been shot dead by unidentified gunmen in Pakistan''s unruly North Waziristan tribal region.Taliban commander Usman Punjabi and five other militants were killed at a school in Dandey Darpa Khel area yesterday, local residents said. The militants had been living at the school for some time.Sources said militants from another Taliban faction were behind the killings as they were opposed to the activities of the Punjabi Taliban led by Usman. There were also rumours that militants from the Mehsud tribe or the Hafiz Gul Bahadar group could have been involved in the incident.There was no official word on the killings.Usman is believed to have been behind the kidnapping of Asad Qureshi, a British journalist of Pakistani origin and former intelligence officials Colonel Imam alias Sultan Amir Tarar and Khalid Khwaja.Khwaja was gunned down by his abductors earlier this year.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Aug 2010 05:49

Guddu wrote: Can you imagine 10,000 Indian soldiers in Tibet, and China not uttering a word, heck, I cant even imagine MMS in tawang.

Guddu exactly what evidence is there of 11,000 Chinese troops in PoK? Who counted? They are not there. The story is rubbish. In any case China has an army so big that its soldiers double up as miners and construction workers.

On the other hand. maybe there are 10,000 India troops in Tibet and nobody is talking about it? Maybe a patriotic non MMS government put them there in secret.

I will also use the opportunity to build up stories that suit whatever viewpoint I want to push.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Aug 2010 06:07

Floods inundate Sujawal town

* Town centre under five feet of water
* Thatta-Sujawal road closed
* Nearby grid station flooded
ARACHI: Two hundred and fifty thousand residents fled Sujawal as floodwaters inundated the town while authorities struggled to build new levees with clay and stone to prevent flooding. “Almost all of 250,000 residents fled the town before the water rushed in,” said Hadi Baksh, a disaster management official. Authorities rushed to build makeshift levees across the road connecting Sujawal and Thatta, parts of which were already flooded, Baksh said.
The floodwaters that hit Sujawal on Sunday surged into the town after breaking through a levee on the swollen Indus River two days earlier. Authorities in Sujawal were trying to limit the flood damage, but the water level had risen up to five feet in the centre of the town and 10 feet in the surrounding villages, said Anwarul Haq, the top official in Sujawal. Many of the people who fled Sujawal and Thatta headed to Makli necropolis. “About half a million flood victims are camped out in Makli,” Baksh said. Most lack any form of shelter and are desperate for food and water. Road closed: An AFP reporter said the road linking Thatta with Sujawal had been flooded and closed to all vehicular traffic, while a senior city official Hadi Bakhsh Kalhoro told AFP that an electricity grid station near Sujawal had been flooded. The military said its engineers had repaired an important embankment in the south and were trying to protect the highway linking Thatta with Karachi.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg1_1
AND the poor DC could not save his town from Poakarmy doing GUBO to Uncle in Jacobabad
12 washed away, 79 killed in Jaffarabad
QUETTA: Five flood victims, including four children and a woman, died of gastroenteritis in Jaffarabad district of Balochistan on Sunday pushing the number of deaths caused by gastro and other waterborne diseases in Jaffarabad and Nasirabad districts to 79. Dozens of flood victims suffering form gastroenteritis had been admitted to hospitals after an outbreak in Dera Murad Jamali, Gandakha, Dargah Fatahpur and Jhal Magsi. Meanwhile, floods washed away 12 people in Gandhaka early on Sunday. In a flood-related development, the Hairdin Drain Sim Canal developed a breach at Goth Muhammad Umar Khosa in Jaffarabad wreaking havoc in Goth Muhammad Umar Khosa, Goth Munir Ahmed Khosa, Goth Raheem Khan Khosa, Goth Mir Muhammad Khosa, Goth Khairwah, Goth Khairpur, Goth Jamal Bugti and other villages. app

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 30 Aug 2010 06:29

Johann wrote:
Paul wrote: It is in Indian interests for Russian interests to be rolled north of Kazan. A dormant Russia is the key reason why PRC is flexing it's muscles in Asia.
Sorry, is there a typo? Do you mean it is not in Indian interests?

No Johann, I still think it is in Indian interests for Russian influence to be rolled to pre-1700 AD borders.

I am probably the only person in this forum who thinks Russian and British imperial interests complimented each other in the great game. Hence they both need to be rolled back to the era when there independent Khanates in Turan. British imperial interests were secured through sea routes and Russian through the land routes.

Most BRFites are mistaken if they think Rus transfer in Submarine and aircraft technology is synomous with Indo-Russian convergence of national interests. Russian public is probably looking in the wrong direction if they think Chinese demographics is the biggest existential threat to their existence. Just wait for a few decades for the turks to get going......

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 30 Aug 2010 06:38

Caption is self-evident.

Some of the 700,000 Indian soldiers in Northern Arunachal Pradesh, northeast of Lhasa.

sanjchopra · Post by **sanjchopra** » 30 Aug 2010 07:00

Cricket meets its match: history of fixing the product of a corrupt society

But, uncomfortable truth be told, Britain and the United States have complied with the governments of Pakistan in the basic form of corruption which pervades the country and derails society.

The British High Commission then estimated that Pakistan's military - including the notorious Inter-Services Intelligence - took 70 per cent of government spending for itself. No doubt official disapproval has been expressed, in private, but the aid has continued to pour in from Britain and the US without sufficient strings attached.

Anyone growing up in such a country therefore sees the state doing nothing for its people, feels no loyalty to the state in return, and makes what money he can for himself. And it is very difficult for someone in Pakistan, if not quite impossible, to make a decent living by honest means: what money there is does not go where it should but into official pockets.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Aug 2010 07:08

enqyoob wrote:Caption is self-evident.

Some of the 700,000 Indian soldiers in Northern Arunachal Pradesh, northeast of Lhasa.

N^3 Image not seen

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 30 Aug 2010 07:16

US's flood aid 'not enough' to win over Pakistan

US aid pouring into Pakistan's flood-hit regions is helping reverse widespread anti-American sentiment but will not be enough to win hearts and minds in the long term, experts say.

why does it not translate it into pro american sentiment. read below

Victims are grateful for the help but many Pakistanis think it ironic that while the United States is sending tonnes of aid, it is also sending drones to bomb Islamist militant hideouts in the border areas with Afghanistan.

pakis support jeehards who in turn kill kuffars.

"We are grateful that they have come forward to help when our own government is doing little for us. I have no issue with the Americans, whether they are angels or devils. Right now we just need all the help we can get."

So now take all help later phuck amerikis.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 30 Aug 2010 09:59

Pakistan should refuse to pay foreign debts

Leaders and activists of over 28 trade unions and political parties have demanded the government refuse to pay all outstanding foreign debts and spend the equivalent amount on the relief and rehabilitation of the flood-hit people.

The demand had been raised in the form of a resolution that was adopted at the end of a multiparty conference entitled ‘Say No To Foreign Debt: Divert Funds to Help Flood Affectees’ held at a local hotel on Sunday.

Prominent among those who addressed the conference were Senator Hasil Bizenjo, Senator Tariq Chaudhry, Manzoor Elahi, IA Rahman, Abid Hassan Manto, Khursheed Ahmed Khan, Abdul Khaliq Shah, Farooq Tariq, Nasir Mansor of the National Trade Union Federation and Abid from the Peoples’ Lawyers Forum.

Ahsan Waeen of the Awami National Party said that Pakistan and India must stop competing to make missiles and bombs and should instead spend their funds on the welfare of their people. He said that people donated generously after the earthquake, but now there was a trust deficit in society and the masses were not sure whether their funds would reach the flood-hit people. {See, even Pakistanis are not donating this time around. Or, they may be donating JuD}

“There are spaces in international law that can be invoked as legal justification to refuse the payment of external debt. One of these justifications is called ‘State of Necessity’. This rule is characterised by a situation that jeopardises the economic or its political survival, such as the situation that creates the factor of impossibility of fulfilling the very basic needs of the population (health, education, food, water, housing etc). The ‘State of Necessity’ justifies the repudiating of debt, since it implies the establishing priorities among different obligations of the state,” he informed the conference.

CalvinH · Post by **CalvinH** » 30 Aug 2010 10:09

here is one picture where people are collecting logs flowing downstream with the flood water somewhere in KP

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2010 10:17

SSridhar wrote:Pakistan should refuse to pay foreign debts

Ahsan Waeen of the Awami National Party said that Pakistan and India must stop competing to make missiles and bombs and should instead spend their funds on the welfare of their people. He said that people donated generously after the earthquake, but now there was a trust deficit in society and the masses were not sure whether their funds would reach the flood-hit people

Sridar Saar,

As a SDRE I was cowereing that the TSP has more and better mizzels compared to us Indians. So why this request that India and TSP stop compeeting to make Mizzeles. Or was the statement that TSP had better weapon a complete lie.

I am sooo konphused.

On a serious note, just what was in the flooded areas that has been damaged that has effected the Pakistani society so badly. A destroyed mud hut can always be rebuild using the local resources. At a low cost. Just what is the cost of a 20 foot span wooden bridge that has been washed away. That again cannot be build using local resources and expertise. If the roads have been washed away, road traffic can still flow.

I have been wondering just what has been damaged so heavily in the flood effected region that TSP needs to do all this drama bazi.

This is just pure hogwash, to extract Moolah from the ROW. The Indian govt. in a moment of generosity has also jumped on the give AID to TSP band wagon.

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 30 Aug 2010 10:21

He said that people donated generously after the earthquake, but now there was a trust deficit in society and the masses were not sure whether their funds would reach the flood-hit people.

IIRC, CSM did report that Pakistani Americans at least were hesitant to pay up:

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0818/ ... tions-home

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Aug 2010 10:46

Just how many kinds of deficit TSP is facing. I know of a few, if members know of more then please enumerate.

1) Trust Deficit.
2) Inage Deficit.
3) Brain Deficit.
4) Budget Deficit.

I am not including water in the deficit catogery at the moment

Please feel free to add to the deficits being faced by TSP

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Aug 2010 10:54

Paul wrote:
It is in Indian interests for Russian interests to be rolled north of Kazan. A dormant Russia is the key reason why PRC is flexing it's muscles in Asia.
No Johann, I still think it is in Indian interests for Russian influence to be rolled to pre-1700 AD borders.

I am probably the only person in this forum who thinks Russian and British imperial interests complimented each other in the great game. Hence they both need to be rolled back to the era when there independent Khanates in Turan. British imperial interests were secured through sea routes and Russian through the land routes.

I agree with you and many people who know the history understand this.
The ascent of the Europe and West in late 1700 gave them enough control over long term policy on race and demographics. They have used it to their advantage in Eurasia as they colonized the populations. Indians were a victim of a joint policy of England and the Russia over the last 300 years.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Aug 2010 10:59

Johann wrote: The previous change was created by Russians in early 1700-1800s when they changed the demographics by removing the Indian merchants and settling russian slavs in that area.

It is in Indian interests for Russian interests to be rolled north of Kazan. A dormant Russia is the key reason why PRC is flexing it's muscles in Asia.

The issue that frightens the Russian public more than the Russian state is Chinese migration in to the Far East. So far the Kremlin doesnt seem to have any serious worries about a Chinese land grab, and despite historical disputes the PRC is not behaving in the way it does with Taiwan, the South China Sea states, India, Japan, etc. They have shown no real interest in opening another front, especially when Russian military technology is something they will still need to buy for another decade or so.

It is true that the Russians are afraid of the chinese encroachment but Chinese are slow in this. They really dont have a colonization strategy but need some room due to demographic bulge. After 10-20 years it will recede back and these chinese can be trapped in these new areas. POK and the Gilgit area.

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 30 Aug 2010 11:25

here is an article from daily times, it mentions a group called Bilderberg group. Conspiracy theorists may find it exciting. the last meeting was held in june this year before the floods started, albiet coincidently!
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 2010_pg3_3
"There seems to be a consensus among the ‘well-informed’ that the real powers behind Pakistan are unhappy with President Asif Ali Zardari. These powers, according to the people in the know, include Allah as represented by the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the US, and probably the Bilderberg Group."

the article in wiki says this much,
"According to the American Friends of Bilderberg, the 2008 agenda dealt "mainly with a nuclear free world, cyber terrorism, Africa, Russia, finance, protectionism, US-EU relations, Afghanistan and Pakistan, Islam and Iran".

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 30 Aug 2010 11:50

this years attendee list:
ia the Bilderberg.org forum: a Bilderberg fax sent from Maja Banck-Polderman in the Netherlands, the Bilderberg Executive Secretary.
Note: The table is sortable on the Country and Name columns

Country Name (Present) Occupation
BEL Davignon, Etienne F. Honorary Chairman, Bilderberg Meetings; Vice Chairman, Suez Tractebel
DEU Ackermann, Josef Chairman of the Management Board and the Group Executive Committee, Deutsche Bank AG
USA Alexander, Keith B. Director, National Security Agency
GRC Alogoskoufis, George Member of Parliament
USA Altman, Roger C. Chairman and CEO, Evercore Partners, Inc.
GRC Arapoglou, Takis Chairman and CEO, National Bank of Greece
TUR Babacan, Ali Minister of State and Deputy Prime Minister
GRC Bakoyannis, Dora Minister of Foreign Affairs
NOR Baksaas, Jon Fredrik President and CEO, Telenor Group
PRT Balsemão, Francisco Pinto Chairman and CEO, IMPRESA, S.G.P.S.; Former Prime Minister
FRA Baverez, Nicolas Partner, Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher LLP
ITA Bernabè, Franco CEO Telecom Italia SpA
SWE Bildt, Carl Minister of Foreign Affairs
SWE Björklund, Jan Minister for Education; Leader of the Lìberal Party
CHE Blocher, Christoph Former Swiss Counselor; Former Chairman and CEO, EMS Group
FRA Bompard, Alexandre CEO, Europe 1
USA Boot, Max Jeane J. Kirkpatrick Senior Fellow for National Security Studies, Council on Foreign Relations
AUT Bronner, Oscar Publisher and Editor, Der Standard
FRA Castries, Henri de Chairman of the Management Board and CEO, AXA
ESP Cebrián, Juan Luis CEO, Grupo PRISA
BEL Coene, Luc Vice Governor, National Bank of Belgium
USA Collins, Timothy C. Senior Managing Director and CEO, Ripplewood Holdings, LLC
GRC David, George A. Chairman, Coca-Cola Hellenic Bottling Co. (H.B.C.) S.A.
GRC Diamantopoulou, Anna Member of Parliament
ITA Draghi, Mario Governor, Banca d'Italia
USA Eberstadt, Nicholas N. Henry Wendt Scholar in Political Economy, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
DNK Eldrup, Anders President, DONG Energy A/S
ITA Elkann, John Chairman, EXOR S.p.A.; Vice Chairman, Fiat S.p.A.
DEU Enders, Thomas CEO, Airbus SAS
ESP Entrecanales, José Manuel Chairman, Acciona
AUT Faymann, Werner Federal Chancellor
USA Ferguson, Niall Laurence A. Tisch Professor of History, Harvard University
IRL Gleeson, Dermot Chairman, AIB Group
USA Graham, Donald E. Chairman and CEO, The Washington Post Company
NLD Halberstadt, Victor Professor of Economics, Leiden University; Former Honorary Secretary General of Bilderberg Meetings
NLD Hirsch Ballin, Ernst M.H. Minister of Justice
USA Holbrooke, Richard C. US Special Representative for Afghanistan and Pakistan
NLD Hommen, Jan H.M. Chairman, ING N.V.
INT Hoop Scheffer, Jaap G. de Secretary General, NATO
USA Johnson, James A. Vice Chairman, Perseus, LLC
USA Jordan, Jr., Vernon E. Senior Managing Director, Lazard Frères & Co. LLC
FIN Katainen, Jyrki Minister of Finance
USA Keane, John M. Senior Partner, SCP Partners; General, US Army, Retired
USA Kent, Muhtar President and CEO, The Coca-Cola Company
GBR Kerr, John Member, House of Lords; Deputy Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc
DEU Klaeden, Eckart von Foreign Policy Spokesman, CDU/CSU
USA Kleinfeld, Klaus President and CEO, Alcoa Inc.
TUR Koç, Mustafa V. Chairman, Koç Holding A.S.
DEU Koch, Roland Prime Minister of Hessen
TUR Kohen, Sami Senior Foreign Affairs Columnist, Milliyet
USA Kravis, Henry R. Senior Fellow, Hudson Institute, Inc.
INT Kroes, Neelie Commissioner, European Commission
GRC Kyriacopoulos, Ulysses Chairman and Board member of subsidiary companies of the S&B Group
FRA Lagarde, Christine Minister for the Economy, Industry and Employment
INT Lamy, Pascal Director General, World Trade Organization
PRT Leite, Manuela Ferreira Leader, PSD
ESP León Gross, Bernardino General Director of the Presidency of the Spanish Government
DEU Löscher, Peter CEO, Siemens AG
GBR Mandelson, Peter Secretary of State for Business, Enterprise & Regulatory Reform
INT Maystadt, Philippe President, European Investment Bank
CAN McKenna, Frank Former Ambassador to the US
GBR Micklethwait, John Editor-in-Chief, The Economist
FRA Montbrial, Thierry de President, French Institute for International Relations
ITA Monti, Mario President, Universita Commerciale Luigi Bocconi
ESP Moratinos Cuyaubé, Miguel A. Minister of Foreign Affairs
USA Mundie, Craig J. Chief Research and Strategy Officer, Microsoft Corporation
CAN Munroe-Blum, Heather Principal and Vice Chancellor, McGill University
NOR Myklebust, Egil Former Chairman of the Board of Directors SAS, Norsk Hydro ASA
DEU Nass, Matthias Deputy Editor, Die Zeit
NLD Beatrix, H.M. the Queen of the Netherlands
ESP Nin Génova, Juan Maria President and CEO, La Caixa
FRA Olivennes, Denis CEO and Editor in Chief, Le Nouvel Observateur
FIN Ollila, Jorma Chairman, Royal Dutch Shell plc
GBR Osborne, George Shadow Chancellor of the Exchequer
FRA Oudéa, Frédéric CEO, Société Générale
ITA Padoa-Schioppa, Tommaso Former Minister of Finance; President of Notre Europe
GRC Papahelas, Alexis Journalist, Kathimerini
GRC Papalexopoulos, Dimitris Managing Director, Titan Cement Co. S.A.
GRC Papathanasiou, Yannis Minister of Economy and Finance
USA Perle, Richard N. Resident Fellow, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
BEL Philippe, H.R.H. Prince
PRT Pinho, Manuel Minister of Economy and Innovation
INT Pisani-Ferry, Jean Director, Bruegel
CAN Prichard, J. Robert S. President and CEO, Metrolinx
ITA Prodi, Romano Chairman, Foundation for Worldwide Cooperation
FIN Rajalahti, Hanna Managing Editor, Talouselämä
CAN Reisman, Heather M. Chair and CEO, Indigo Books & Music Inc.
NOR Reiten, Eivind President and CEO, Norsk Hydro ASA
CHE Ringier, Michael Chairman, Ringier AG
USA Rockefeller, David Former Chairman, Chase Manhattan Bank
USA Rubin, Barnett R. Director of Studies and Senior Fellow, Center for International Cooperation, New York University
TUR Sabanci Dinçer, Suzan Chairman, Akbank
CAN Samarasekera, Indira V. President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Alberta
AUT Scholten, Rudolf Member of the Board of Executive Directors, Oesterreichische Kontrollbank AG
USA Sheeran, Josette Executive Director, UN World Food Programme
ITA Siniscalco, Domenico Vice Chairman, Morgan Stanley International
ESP Solbes, Pedro Vice-President of Spanish Government; Minister of Economy and Finance
ESP Sophia, H.M. the Queen of Spain
USA Steinberg, James B. Deputy Secretary of State
INT Stigson, Bjorn President, World Business Council for Sustainable Development
GRC Stournaras, Yannis Research Director, Foundation for Economic and Industrial Research (IOBE)
IRL Sutherland, Peter D. Chairman, BP plc and Chairman, Goldman Sachs International
INT Tanaka, Nobuo Executive Director, IEA
GBR Taylor, J. Martin Chairman, Syngenta International AG
USA Thiel, Peter A. President, Clarium Capital Management, LLC
DNK Thorning-Schmidt, Helle Leader ofThe Social Democratic Party
DNK Thune Andersen, Thomas Partner and CEO, Maersk Oil
AUT Treichl, Andreas Chairman and CEO, Erste Group Bank AG
INT Trichet, Jean-Claude President, European Central Bank
GRC Tsoukalis, Loukas President of the Hellenic Foundation for European and Foreign Policy (ELlAMEP)
TUR Ugur, Agah CEO, Borusan Holding
FIN Vanhanen, Matti Prime Minister
CHE Vasella, Daniel L. Chairman and CEO, Novartis AG
NLD Veer, Jeroen van der Chief Executive, Royal Dutch Shell plc
USA Volcker, Paul A. Chairman, Economic Recovery Advisory Board
SWE Wallenberg, Jacob Chairman, Investor AB
SWE Wallenberg, Marcus Chairman, SEB
NLD Wellink, Nout President, De Nederlandsche Bank
NLD Wijers, Hans Chairman, AkzoNobel NV
GBR Wolf, Martin H. Associate Editor & Chief Economics Commentator, The Financial Times
USA Wolfensohn, James D. Chairman, Wolfensohn & Company, LLC
USA Wolfowitz, Paul Visiting Scholar, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research
INT Zoellick, Robert B. President, The World Bank Group
GBR Bredow, Vendeline von Business Correspondent, The Economist (Rapporteur)
GBR McBride, Edward Business Editor, The Economist (Rapporteur)
AUT Austria
BEL Belgium
CHE Switzerland
CAN Canada
DEU Germany
DNK Denmark
ESP Spain
FRA France
FIN Finland
GBR Great Britain
GRC Greece
IRL Ireland
INT International
ITA Italy
NOR Norway
NLD Netherlands
PRT Portugal
SWE Sweden
TUR Turkey
USA United States of America

menon s · Post by **menon s** » 30 Aug 2010 12:35

you know something, the bilderbergers decided to cause misery on afghan pak border, by asking American NSA to use HAARP. just joking. but if Ahmed Quraishi or mad Hamid, are lurking, they might find this interesting. Why? should the elites in Europe discuss Af Pak? They might discuss Euro. remember all big guys from PIGS states were there. mainly to discuss European economy. Interesting to see Mustafa Koc there? Is Turkey too about to go into the drain? All said, for these guys, Pakistan is just a nuisance. A party pooper.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Aug 2010 12:41

except for the lone turk sounds like a proper little white boys club who think they can still 'shape' the world.

Bhima · Post by **Bhima** » 30 Aug 2010 12:44

Muslim states vow $1bn Pakistan aid

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Aug 2010 12:54

The latest sporting scandal thanks to Paki puppeteers isn't going to endear the nation with aid-givers,especially British ones.What this scandal exposes is that more than just a sporting fix,it shows the Paki character in its nakedness.If the Pakis can corrput the most noble game of all,cricket,where one is taught to play the game and life with a "straight bat",the same metality of dumpicity,cheating and fraud must be rampant in all Paki institutions,especially when the generals rule the Paki cricket establishment.Can anyone now sincerely trust Pak in its critical role in world affairs of the moment? Allegations that Osama is under ISI protection and the Wikileaks all shwo that Pak is rotten to the core totally and the state deserves to be drowned,cleansed and its map totally redrawn.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricke ... games.html

Cricket match-fixing: suspicion falls on 80 games
More than 80 international cricket matches will be investigated amid allegations that a London businessman has been running a multi-million-pound match-fixing racket.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 30 Aug 2010 13:37

Philip wrote:The latest sporting scandal thanks to Paki puppeteers isn't going to endear the nation with aid-givers,especially British ones.What this scandal exposes is that more than just a sporting fix,it shows the Paki character in its nakedness.If the Pakis can corrput the most noble game of all,cricket,where one is taught to play the game and life with a "straight bat",the same metality of dumpicity,cheating and fraud must be rampant in all Paki institutions,especially when the generals rule the Paki cricket establishment.Can anyone now sincerely trust Pak in its critical role in world affairs of the moment? Allegations that Osama is under ISI protection and the Wikileaks all shwo that Pak is rotten to the core totally and the state deserves to be drowned,cleansed and its map totally redrawn.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricke ... games.html

Cricket match-fixing: suspicion falls on 80 games
More than 80 international cricket matches will be investigated amid allegations that a London businessman has been running a multi-million-pound match-fixing racket.

Phillip-ji, was watching highlights of the match yesterday - started with three commentators discussing the issue. Apparently, ECB bent over backwards to accommodate Pak. And what did Pakis do: came to the supposedly "home of cricket"

and did what they do best.
From what I see in English commentators, there is some hidden love for TSP. Standard words came up: "Not all players are like this". "The show must go on" etc.

But one thing is sure. The World XI tour is in sure jeopardy. Apparently ECB did pull a lot of strings to get that into the itinerary.As individual players touring Pakistan, they should be worried about:
a. Their safety
b. Their reputation by being associated with TSP cricket.

Another report from Bedford from a reporter who goes to the ground to question some Pakis as to how they feel. A typical Paki that he is - refuses to name Pakistan but instead repeatedly calls himself and his team "Asian" and says he feels let down but back of his mind he knew fixing existed in all matches where Asians are involved. The reporter however used the word Pakistan throughout.

The one person who stood out was G.Boycott. He refused to believe that such young players are involved on their own! . And he is right. The young virgin crickerrists are 18 - 23 year olds and possibly with very little education. How do they know how these things work. Boycott was rude and angry and called for a ban on all these players!

My suspicion is that several key members of the TSP team are involved and every one in the hierarcgy takes a cut. Now, it is madness to fix match results and even dumb Pakis know it. No balls however, are easier and can easily go under the scanner. Now, the question to ask is> Can a no-ball affect the outcome . Answer: Yes. So Pakis now have their undies in a twist!

I have been saying this before: at the ground level, more and more people are coming around the view that anything to do with TSP is despicable. And Pakis are losing no opportunity to prove that!
As it is, Pakis had no teams visiting. Now, no team will want them too! PCB will be bankrupt in a short while.

PAklurks , for you it is only gully cricket from now on!