Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

[Pratyush]

Here's something from the latest Mod report section 7.64

BDL is presently
working for adaptation of
the system to a variety of
Aircraft Platforms and also
developing RF controlled
Anti Tank Guided Missile
(ATGM)

RF guided ATGM, is it MMW guided weapon.

If yes, then it is a great news.

D Roy, Wonderful find.

[rohitvats]

Here's something from the latest Mod report section 7.64

BDL is presently working for adaptation of the system to a variety of Aircraft Platforms and also developing RF controlled
Anti Tank Guided Missile (ATGM)

RF Guided ATGM may well be the cost-effective answer to the large ATGM requirement and one can do away with the cumbersome wire-spool - though, the continous fire-team engagement will still be required.

[rohitvats]

Here's something from the latest Mod report section 7.64

BDL is presently
working for adaptation of
the system to a variety of
Aircraft Platforms and also
developing RF controlled
Anti Tank Guided Missile
(ATGM)

RF guided ATGM, is it MMW guided weapon.

If yes, then it is a great news.

D Roy, Wonderful find.

RF versions are 2nd Gen. SACLOS Missiles - the guidance/command link is through RF. The RF replaces the wires in case of earlier versions. TOW has a version of it - TOW-2B RF

[rohitvats]

Dont send infantry near tanks call for CAS, Helicopter gunships, or heck send in few prithvis...
the point is we need to change our doctrine of not using infantry and young captains to charge up the mountains (like Brave Amar Jawan Kalia & others).

Just because today we have some money in the coffers Javelin is Javali ( a romantic composition in carnatic music which mostly Love and lust in double entendre) we have money uncle needs money somebody wants to make money so we sing Javelin song and dnace.

So we have a situation in which a infantry guy gets close like in battle of Bulge heros or Saving private Ryan and boom he fires Javelin at close range, which any could be done by milan or Tow or wow or even RPG. ( The somalis have shown how RPG can become Stinger no).

Improvisation is the name of the game if not atleast make it locally, fight wars like Taliban, with improvised equipment.

And quoting Donal Rums "As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

The best way to protect infantry is to call for air support and served the army very well as Kargil histroy shows.

Even better dont go to war keep talking as GOI/MOD Sop is.

Finally US is US India is India, our doctrine is different our capabilities are different our requirements are different and our affordability is limited including commisions.

The fact that you write what you've written, shows how much you know or have researched the topic. While you're quite free to have opinions, let those be based on facts and some ground reality.

Infantry is never sent to take on tanks. It is tanks which come at you because they are the main elements of strike - During the Battle of Longewala, the TSPA Armored Regiment attacked the Indian Infantry post and not other way around.

So, it is important that Infantry has organic AT assets - more potent, the better. And CAS and Gunships are not going to be available to everyone and all the while. And this actually means that Infantry needs powerful AT assets. So, whether it is Javelin or XYZ, those infantrymen since the advent of MBT have required AT assets and have been equipped with one form of it or another.

And for infantry charging enemy defences, well, good sir, that is how the battles are fought. You can have N-Number of arty and gunships and CAS, but at the end of the day, the infantry will need to asault and hold the ground. And it is not about doctrine or some such fancy stuff - it is about money.The equipment that you have fashions the doctrine you can empploy. If you want the Arty+Gunships+CAS to flatten everything in sight and then send in the infantry, good. But then we need to BUY those guns and helicopters and a/c in obscene numbers.

As for your comments on the Taliban and Somali militia, they are pretty nonsensical, to put it mildly.

[Pratyush]

Rohit,

IIRC, the ATGW of Mi 25/35 ( AT-6 )is the type as discribed by you. If the BDL is working on a similar system, then they are working on a system which is quite dated.

The better option IMO will be to work on a lazer beam riding (Konkur class)system, as a cheaper complement for the NAG. If it is for a 2nd gen system.

I also remember reading that MMW version NAG was in the works. I hope the MOD document refers to a component of that system. MMW by definition is a RF system after all.

[D Roy]

Although this is a far out comment,

I wonder how a Ripsaw type teleoperated UGV integrated with cheapish RF operator in the loop ATGMs work as an accompaniment for mechanized infantry?

Imagine a smallish Khrizantema but deployed in numbers and having huge maneuverability.

It could be teleoperated from IFVs or even dismounted infantry and can be deployed "up ahead".

[Lalmohan]

wouldnt you rather have helicopters sweep ahead of mechanised infantry? and hang around to support them where their own guns cant blast a way through?

i see atgm's more in a defensive role

[ShivaS]

As for your comments on the Taliban and Somali militia, they are pretty nonsensical, to put it mildly.

Yes strongly agree with your pronouncements but sadly you are not the first one to discover that

I have a pack of DVDs of Hollywood heros (Dirty Dozen, Kelly's heros) taking down tanks with bare hands ripping the belt/chain drives with hands sok sometimes with grenades, the americans must have some technology and thats what we need no?

Ahh what about Abdul Hameed who brought down Patton Tanks with Jeep mounted recoiless gun?

dont need Javelin look at this IA

[Lalmohan]

shiva since you're so into movies, do you remember the scene from saving ryan's privates where the bazooka shells bounce off the tiger tanks turret?

besides, if you want perfect movie based tank killing, you need sunny deol in border!

[D Roy]

helos would be better naturally. but this may be a cheaper way out, since those Ripsaws could also mount 23 mm weapons.

[ShivaS]

even wire guided is fine in line of sight, why not use Styx

[ShivaS]

trust the ingenuity of our jawans not the Javelin of America....

At this stage, Kiltan arrived at the predetermined point only to find out that all the other boats except Veer had turned around to head home. Veer had experienced machinery problems and had to reduce speed to effect repairs. Kiltan then turned around to head home at high speed but this made Veer to assume that Kiltan was an enemy vessel. Fortunately, by this time, Veer's engines were repaired and communication was reestablished. Both Kiltan and Nipat had their fair share of problems as well. At about 0045 hrs, one of Kiltan's gas turbine engines failed. The second gas turbine engine failed at around 0130 hrs. Kiltan was now running on her main diesel engine and her speed came down to 13 knots. Nipat, having come closest to Karachi, needed to take evasive maneuvers during the withdrawal phase. At this juncture, one of Nipat's lubrication oil hosepipes gave way, reducing her speed to just 7 knots. After about 2 hours, repairs were effected and Nipat increased speed to 30 knots keeping well below the maximum of 45 knots in order to avoid the recurrence of the hosepipe failure. Further, to stay out of the attack range of Pakistani aircraft, Nipat altered course by 90 degrees towards Aden and only when well clear of the air route from Karachi to Bombay, altered back to rendezvous with the tanker Poshak. This detour consumed additional fuel, which began to run low. However, Nipat continued, thanks to the ingenuity of her engineers who took out and transferred the pump oil to run the engines and manually transferred unpumpable fuel from one tank to another. After replenishing with Poshak on 5 December, Nipat continued towards Bombay. Kiltan arrived at Mangrol at about 1800 hrs on 5 December. All boats had been accounted for except Nipat, which was presumed sunk. After completion of refueling, Kiltan was to sail the task group to Bombay. However, Kiltan's diesel engine failed to start and she became immobile. Therefore, the commander detached the other Petya - Katchall and the missile boats to proceed to Bombay where they arrived on the evening of 6 December. Kiltan stayed overnight at Mangrol and after getting one gas turbine working by the morning, she arrived in Bombay on the night of 7 December 1971.Nipat arrived home sometime later to receive a hero's welcome.

[Austin]

BrahMos missile maker happy with Russian Glonass receivers

BrahMos Aerospace Ltd., a Russian-Indian joint venture manufacturing supersonic cruise missiles, is successfully using Russian-built Glonass receivers for aiming and target acquisition, CEO Sivathanu Pillai said on Wednesday.

Glonass - the Global Navigation Satellite System - is the Russian equivalent of the U.S. Global Positioning System, or GPS, and is designed for both military and civilian uses. Both systems enable users to determine their positions to within a few meters.

BrahMos missiles equipped with Glonass receivers acquire and effectively engage targets, Pillai told the Bengaluru Space Expo 2010 exhibition.

He said the receivers performed reliably and consistently.
.......
Prime Minister Vladimir Putin said in early August Russia will complete the formation of a global navigation satellite group by the end of 2010 and that there will be between 24 and 28 satellites in orbit at any given time.

Russia currently has a total of 22 Glonass satellites in orbit, but only 16 of them are functional. The system requires 18 operational satellites for continuous navigation services covering the entire territory of Russia and at least 24 satellites to provide navigation services worldwide.

[Lalmohan]

wire guided means that the launcher has to stay put, subjecting him to counterfire fairly quickly, and is by no means easy - rockets tend to fly around a bit before stabilising - making a hit is not straight forward. i've tried out a milan simulator and found it to be quite tricky

javelin is meant to be fire and forget

[Kanson]

^ It will be similar to driving a jet plane throu RC joystick.

[ShivaS]

Yes in armaments business everything is fire and forget. ( for the buyers its Pay and forget)

[Kanson]

After a brief search for information on Javelin - a few things strike me. It can be used against armor but has not been proven. It has been developed on the basis of "test, see the results, and improve".

It has a range of 2.5 km. Considering that anti-tank weapons now need to have longer ranges nowadays - I doubt if the Javelin is going to be applied by the Indian army as a primary anti-tank weapons. More likely it will be used as a far superior alternative to the Carl Gustav in getting Jihadi bunkers and houses. The Carl Gustav puts the user within range of small arms fire from windows of houses that jihadis occupy - or even from sangers in mountain hideouts.

For its reported effectiveness the Javelin appears to be unique - I am certain there is some cutting edge tech there that it will actually take 20 years to catch up. It weighs only 22 kg, has a twin tandem warhead and an IR seeker (cooled by an Argon bottle) which presumably makes it possible to fire though the window of a building.

few years back when IA shown interest in Spike missile, it was reported that easy portability of the missile by the infantry as one of the important criteria. Next thing that was talked abt is the bunker busting role of the Spike missile.

has a twin tandem warhead and an IR seeker (cooled by an Argon bottle)

Same thing as Nag.

[D Roy]

The Spike now has a number of variants. Its a hot selling item for Israel.

[rohitvats]

wouldnt you rather have helicopters sweep ahead of mechanised infantry? and hang around to support them where their own guns cant blast a way through?

i see atgm's more in a defensive role

Thank you for stating the obvious - something which people seem to be missing. No one goes around looking for a tank to pick up a fight - unless one is in a 50 ton monster himself or specialized Anti-Tank unit. Those ATGM with Infantry are for defensive use - it would be informative to check the blog by the gentleman who covered the Indo-Pak border (on GE) and highlighted anti-tank ditches and pits for ATGM deployment. These are perfect weapons to be fired from behind a pill-box on home side of a DCB or Canal.

[Lalmohan]

there's a new carl gustav variant which can be fired from inside enclosed spaces without blowing them up (at least according to discovery channel)

[rohitvats]

<SNIP>

Ahh what about Abdul Hameed who brought down Patton Tanks with Jeep mounted recoiless gun?

dont need Javelin look at this IA <SNIP>

Since you mentioned RCL, it is quite obvious that you don't understand the cat and mouse game of ATGM fire teams and MBT - where the MBT is a big-big cat. And that you are obviously not aware of the severe limitation of a RCL guns -the back blast which gives away your position instantly.

Read this citation of CQMH Abdul Hameed:

At 0800 hours on 10 September 1965 Pakistan forces launched an attack with a regiment of Patton tanks on a vital area ahead of village Cheema on the Bhikkiwind road in the Khem Karam Sector. Intense artillery shelling preceded the attack. The enemy tanks penetrated the forward position by 0900 hours. Realising the grave situation, Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid who was commander of an RCL gun detachment moved out to a flanking position with his gun mounted on a jeep, under intense enemy shelling and tank fire. Taking an advantageous position, he knocked out the leading enemy tank and then swiftly changing his position, he sent another tank up in flames. By this time the enemy tanks in the area spotted him and brought his jeep under concentrated machine-gun and high explosive fire. Undeterred, Company Quarter Master Havildar Abdul Hamid kept on firing on yet another enemy tank with his recoilless gun. While doing so, he was mortally wounded by an enemy high explosive shell.

This is what the new ATGM are trying to overcome - by being F&F and to allow the missile to be fired from concealed positions.

[Surya]

even wire guided is fine in line of sight, why not use Styx

[Kanson]

Here's something from the latest Mod report section 7.64

BDL is presently
working for adaptation of
the system to a variety of
Aircraft Platforms and also
developing RF controlled
Anti Tank Guided Missile
(ATGM)

RF guided ATGM, is it MMW guided weapon.

If yes, then it is a great news.

D Roy, Wonderful find.

From the same report.

Millimeter Wave Seeker : Millimeter Wave Seeker with Seeker Servo systems have been developed for Anti-Tank applications and successfully field tested.

[Vipul]

India nearly ready with air-to-land supersonic cruise missile.

An air-to-land supersonic missile was almost ready, A Sivathanu Pillai, CEO and managing director of BrahMos Aerospace, an Indo-Russian joint venture, said today.

"All the modifications have been completed. We are now in the process of readying with the missile," he told reporters here. This air-to-land supersonic missile "very precisely" attacks the target, he added.But he said the Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft, in which it is planned to be fitted, needed to be modified and this process is expected to take two years.

Since this BrahMos supersonic cruise missile is "heavier" and "elaborate", the Sukhois, which could carry other weapons, needed to be modified "exclusively" for BrahMos, including in the context of pilot's console and "mission computer should take the (extra) load" and interface issues.

"In the next two years, we are planning to complete these modifications. By 2012 we will be in a position to carry out the flight (with this missile)," Pillai said.Under the programme, two Sukhoi-30 MKIs would be modified initially. Initial test flights would be conducted in Russia and the "actual" test flights thereafter in India. These missiles would be inducted by the IAF "after 2012".

Meanwhile, Pillai also said the BrahMos missile is capable of launching from underwater and "it can go against ship target and land target"."We have to prove it from under water. We are planning to conduct tests from under water in the near future. Once it's successful, it will get into submarine," he said.

[darshan]

It has a range of 2.5 km.

How about if it had a longer range? Can the cost and utility of it be justified? Just quoting you Shiv and not directing at you.

[darshan]

a Jeep mounted launcher for the NAG to complement the heavy ATGM ( Konkurs & similar ATGMS ) forces of the IA.

+1

[Austin]

Indian-Russian Brahmos venture to produce missile engines in India

The Indian-Russian venture BrahMos Aerospace Ltd. plans to produce engines for Brahmos missiles in India, CEO Sivathanu Pillai said on Friday.

The engines will be produced at the Brahmos plant in the state of Kerala in southeastern India, Pillai said. In two years its production volumes will exceed the manufacturing capabilities of the plant in Russia's Orenburg which currently produces the engines.

He said the decision was made due to a mounting demand for Brahmos missiles in the Indian Armed Forces.

The BrahMos missile has a range of 290 km (180 miles) and can carry a conventional warhead of up to 300 kg (660 lbs). It can effectively engage ground targets from an altitude as low as 10 meters (30 feet) and has a top speed of Mach 2.8, which is about three times faster than the U.S.-made subsonic Tomahawk cruise missile.

[Kailash]

^^^ Austin, you just beat me by a few seconds there to that news

Amazing development.... hope we got some ToT

[shukla]

5,000-km Agni-V missile ready for test firing: Antony

India’s indegenous 5,000-km range Agni-V nuclear-capable missile that can hit targets in northernmost China is ready for test-firing, Defence Minister A.K. Antony said here Friday but declined to state when this would happen. The missile was developed following the denial of technology to India. “The denial has only given us an opportunity to develop a 5,000-km range missile,” Antony said.

The minister was speaking after laying foundation stone for expansion of the Mishra Dhatu Nigam Limited (Midhani) defence public sector company. He said Indian scientists working in many critical areas have proved that India can overcome sanctions and denials. “When we face denial, we should take it us a God-sent opportunity and a challenge,” he told the scientists present on the occassion. Later, in a chat with reporters, Antony declined to give any date for the test-firing of the Agni-V, India’s only inter-continental ballistic missile (ICBM).

[Singha]

since 300km range missile sales are banned by MTCR, he was surely joking when he mentions "denials" for sale of the topol and minuteman

[ShivaS]

The engines will be produced at the Brahmos plant in the state of Kerala in southeastern India, Pillai said.

Oh boy Brahmos is having GPS problems

[Vril]

ho ho i must try my luck in clairvoyance business because while watching news on china refusing our military personnel, there only one thing i thought that would be a fitting reply and that would be testing Agni V. thankfully shri Anthony does not disappoint.

beautiful.

[PratikDas]

since 300km range missile sales are banned by MTCR, he was surely joking when he mentions "denials" for sale of the topol and minuteman

My interpretation is that the sale and transfer of technology of ICBM components like advanced alloys, composites, fuels, guidance systems, etc. would have been denied, not entire ICBMs.

[Pratyush]

Continuing from the navy thread

Hmmm...do remind the fellows at BDL...they don't think it is that easy to develop a manportable version of Nag or those trying to develop a IFV.

Well the MP NAG can be integrated using the following hardware components from the current system.

1)The Seeker, It has already demonstrated a capability to engage a tank type target at few hundred meters..
2) The flight control system, same as above, If it can handle a target between a few hundred meters to 4000 meters, then there is no reason why it cannot be limited to 2500 meters.
3)The Warhead, No point for guessing why.


What will need to change,

The body of the weapon.
The amount of fuel that it carries.

The flight control system will have to be re-programmed, to compensate the lower weight of the missile. Having designed Nag and validated its flight control laws for the current system. It is also being modifyed for the longer ranged HELINA.

Now what makes you think,the same modification for a shorter ranged system is beyond the technical capability of BDL and DRDO.

Please explain.

Or I am raising stink where none should exist, correct?

As far as the IFV is concerned I will watch the AVD thread. If I see some thing that is questionable I will point it out. You can take it in the spirit of the question or try to defend the indefensible that is your choice.

[rohitvats]

Continuing from the navy thread

Hmmm...do remind the fellows at BDL...they don't think it is that easy to develop a manportable version of Nag or those trying to develop a IFV.

Well the MP NAG can be integrated using the following hardware components from the current system.

1)The Seeker, It has already demonstrated a capability to engage a tank type target at few hundred meters..
2) The flight control system, same as above, If it can handle a target between a few hundred meters to 4000 meters, then there is no reason why it cannot be limited to 2500 meters.
3)The Warhead, No point for guessing why.


What will need to change,

The body of the weapon.
The amount of fuel that it carries..

Did you read properly what I wrote in my post and tried to convey? That is not a simple matter of using technology from one system and come out with another? Is that difficult to understand? What you're written above is obvious - what is important is to know the timeline for development.Oh! and another thing - the seeker of Nag is MBDA - so, the jury is still out in terms of their mastery of the topic and ability to miniaturize it. And which is the critical requirement.

The challenge is getting them together into a manportable version and meeting the weight requirement. If it was as simple as you've put it - i guess the IA would have been fielding Nag in a short span of time. And DRDO not requiring 3-4years to come out with Manportabel version (I don't have link to this data point - something I read. Will post the link once I get it)

Now what makes you think,the same modification for a shorter ranged system is beyond the technical capability of BDL and DRDO.

Nothing. I don't think so. You're putting words into my mouth. Like I said earlier, what timelines for development? how long will it take for the local R&D Unit to master this tech?

Or I am raising stink where none should exist, correct?

No, all you're doing is running around in circles and greating strawman and knocking them down yourself.

[Pratyush]

Rohit,

It may not be a simple matter, But it is not so complex that it cannot be done. It is an integration issue which can be overcome if an attempt is made by the concerned party. That is the problem I am having. The lack of effort and Intent to do so. They can make an attempt and fail I will understand.

Also, I have followed the IDGMP for almost 20 years and BRF for almost 10 years and have not come across any reference to the MP NAG. (I will appreciate, if you or any one else on this thread can point a news report or link to the contrary). Even in this thread, it has been posted that that MP NAG was not a design prirority. The priority or the anounced project was HELINA. IWhich was announced in 2002 / 3. When the first mockup of the LCH was shown by the HAL.

Correct me if I am wrong, the IA olny raised the requirement for 3rd gen MP ATGM in 2009 IIRC. Subsequent the exercise in which Javilin was demonstrated by the US Army.

Going for imports, to fuilfill an urgent requirement is an understandabe choice. But going for TOT without giving the BDL/DRDO the time to work on the system is a questionable choice. Especially if the DM is takling of TOT and licence manufacture of the Javailin in the Parliament.

You can call it a strawmans argument or running arround in circles or any thing else. It won't make a diffrence.

[Gaur]

Pratyush,
There have been efforts to develop man portable NAG.
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 700400.htm

HAVING successfully completed the development phase of the third generation anti-tank missile Nag, Indian defence scientists are now working on two new versions — helicopter launched and man portable.

Missile scientists will also start working on the third generation, `Man Portable' Nag very soon. It would weigh less than 14 kg.

This has been posted on BR several times. This is even mentioned in wikipedia.
This report is 5 years old. Yet, we have not heard of any progress since. Not even mockups or information posters at various defence expos. So, obviously it is not so simple to miniaturize a missile system as you would like to believe. You put the whole process in 3 steps and make it look so easy. But I have noticed that you have tactfully avoided the question rohitvats asked. How will India miniatturize a seeker make by MBDA? It is not that manportable NAG is not possible. Far from so or else DRDO would not have tried developing one. But the time frame may not be short. An frankly, I do not understand all the outcry reagarding javeling procurement. Javelin procurement is not likely to even scratch the surface of IA's man portable atgm need. When the manportable nag is available, there would be more than enough requirement for it.

[Pratyush]

Gaur,

Thanks for the news report. I seem to have missed out on this. I really don't know what happned in this effort. As I seem to have missed the whole MP NAG programe. Incidently I seem to recall HELINA mentioned in the link posted by you from the days the first mockup of LCH in 2002/3.

On the Seeker miniturisation, I will ask you this, what is the size of the Seaker and why should it me miniturised. The Missile diameter, the warhed and the Seaker should remain the same in order to maintain the maximum commanility and capability with the current NAG. What will change is some thing that I have already mentioned in my post above.

What I am proposing will result in a 25 kg class weapon. Which is oin the same class as the Javalin. The report that you have posted suggests a 14 kg weapon.

This is the same approach fiollowed by the Isrealies with GILL / SPIKE.

The TRIGAT as envisiged would have done the same but in three diffrent versions.

As a replacement for the MILAN as well as the HOT, plus a HELO launched version with 8 KM range for the TIGER.

[Singha]

imho the days of MP ATGMs are a bit numbered. tanks and IFVs will have detectors that cue their HMGs to spray fire down the threat axis. some type of OICW airburst grenade launcher will surely come to target dug in ATGM teams.

but it might still have a role in mountain warfare or in the plains as ambush weapons or bunker busting weapons. for that I dont see why a combo of Milan, Shipon and Cgustaf cannot do the job if adequate numbers are provided.

we should throw $$ into wheeled recce units and dedicated wheeled and tracked ATGM units mounting the existing Nag. so far the
orders of Namica are very less. we dont even match the PA in that arena let alone PLA. far more capable in sensor terms , longer range weapon, better protection, mobile and much more reloads than say a couple of infantry ATGM teams running around...

we should improve Nag into VL-tor sa15 style cansisters suitable for plugging into a cavity back of Namica, into a towed trailer pulled by a truck for infantry units and also mounted on flatbed trucks. RF links between truck mounted sensor station or even a tripod station used by dismounted infantry to control the missile. the truck station should have salvo fire capability to unleash say upto 6 ATGMs in a gap of 2 secs each.

wasting billions of $$ on javelin is a total waste imo vs this soothing vision

likewise we need R&D into truck mounted autofed 105mm cannon capable of sustaining very high rates of medium range fire.
kind like a desi Pzh that can sit under a tree all day and *POUND* the target for hour after endless hour using a 70rd line mag
replenished from a feeder vehicle in the back...

[Gaur]

Pratyush,
I do not know the size of the seeker nor do I believe that the figures are publicly available. However, DRDO would have a lot of work cut out for them if they could have kept the missile diameter and seeker the same and yet be able to sufficiently reduce the weight. But one would logically assume that reduction of diameter and size of seeker would translate into reduction in wgt. Take a loot at pics of NAG mounted on NAMICA. It is huge! Now consider the overall dimeter with its lauch tube. It is hard to imagine a "man portable" atgm of that size.
Also, what do you mean by referencing to spike system. Are you suggesting that Spike ER and MR use the same seeker? If so, that is news to me.
But IMO all this is irrelevant. DRDO would certainly have looked at all the ways to reduce weight. However, there is no news of any progress made in that front. That is understandable and I am sure that DRDO will succeed in developing a man portable version of NAG. But in the meantime, if IA chooses to fill some of the gap with javelin, IMO its unreasonable to oppose that.