Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 31 Aug 2010 14:32

Singha Sir,

I feel that 3 rd gen MP ATGM has a vital role to play in modern warfare. The IA needs to have as many of them in service as possible. The problem is with the billions going towards the Import and TOT of Javailin. Not the type of weapon it self. But since the Domestic product is not available we take the Javelin.

Gaur,

The opposition is not to Javalin it self. If you read my previous posts on this thread it self in the past 10 to 15 days you will see that I have been consistantly cribing about the lack of MP NAG and supporting the javelin deal in the absence of MP NAG.

From Memory the figures for NAG, FWIW, The missile is of 6 inch diameter. With a launch weight of 42 KG, launch lenght of either 5 or 6 feet.

IIRC there are 3 specific version in the GILL / SPIKE family (In terms of range 2 km,4km and 8 km,) two of them share a lot of components but one of them has the option of having fiber optic guidence with man in the loop as well.The specific varients names escape me at the moment. Will be able to confirm to you once I have access to the net in an unristricted environment. If you get my drift.

The frustation lies in the lack of domestic product. Surly you will understand the frustation of a Jingo.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 31 Aug 2010 14:52

^^
I see. Then we are in agreement here. I believe that every jingo here would love to see a man portable NAG. I guess your frustration was primarily due to your impression that nothing was being done in that direction. But as you now see, that is not the case. Hopefully, man portable NAG would be developed soon and produced in large nos.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Sep 2010 10:02

BrahMos aims to create $13 billion order book

BrahMos, the missile joint venture between India and Russia, is inviting a lot of global attention, particularly from South America, Middle East, Asia Pacific and African regions, a senior defence official told ET. With this newfangled demand BrahMos aims at creating an order book of $13 billion for the indigenously-built Brah-Mos.

Although there are over 60,000 cruise missiles worldwide, most of them are pretty archaic, having been developed in the 1970s. This explains the reason for the spurt in demand for the new BrahMos fleet, say defence officials.The supersonic cruise missile system has also caught the attention of many countries such as Brazil, South Africa and Chile because it has been developed at a low-cost budget of $300 million.

We are working along with the state-owned Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) labs and PSUs such as DRDL and BEML. Private players such as Larsen & Toubro, Godrej are also collaborating for the project”, Alexander B Maksichev, deputy general director at NPO Mashinostroyenia and managing director at Brah-Mos Aerospace, told ET. “BrahMos is moving in a new direction with airborne missile version,” he added.

“The negotiations and ground work to export these missiles to other countries have started. The export of BrahMos will start once the requirements of Indian defence are met”, said a senior defence official speaking on condition of anonymity. On its part, India has already placed $3 billion of missile orders including ground systems and receivers with BrahMos for next 7-8 years.

The missiles will also be exported to the Russian military, which has shown interest in the new air-borne version, the defence official said. “The air-launched version includes a missile which can be dropped from an altitude of 3,000-km. It can then find the target on its own with the help of a computer”, the defence official said.

the Indian Army, which has given orders for long target missiles, is also procuring block-two BrahMos missiles for precise and controlled attacks on small targets. This will prevent the surrounding infrastructure from being destroyed. “BrahMos is a landmark project because it was started from scratch in India. We have been developing ballistic missiles. But it is a good learning process for Indian scientists to design and develop the cruise missile technology”, said Ajey Lele from the Institute for Defence Studies and Analyses (IDSA), a Delhi-based think-tank.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 01 Sep 2010 12:28

“The air-launched version includes a missile which can be dropped from an altitude of 3,000-km. It can then find the target on its own with the help of a computer”, the defence official said.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 01 Sep 2010 12:37

Guys I think these posts probably should go into the Errors in Defense Reporting Thread.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 01 Sep 2010 16:10

Agni-II+ to be tested in Sept. end from Orissa coast
http://orissadiary.com/CurrentNews.asp?id=20926

This newly built missile has a length of 21 meters and diameters of 1.3 meter, weighs around 17 tonnes. It is designed to carry ‘special weapons’ nuclear payload of over 1,000 kg.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 01 Sep 2010 22:02

What are the correct figures for maximum and minimum altitude ?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Sep 2010 00:10

dinesha wrote:Agni-II+ to be tested in Sept. end from Orissa coast
http://orissadiary.com/CurrentNews.asp?id=20926
This newly built missile has a length of 21 meters and diameters of 1.3 meter, weighs around 17 tonnes. It is designed to carry ‘special weapons’ nuclear payload of over 1,000 kg.

I wonder what they mean by "Special weapons" here. Maybe referring to MIRV? But specifications of missile are provided quite accurately.

Also I was navigating through BR's missile section, but could not find Arun's page on Agni series????

where did it go???

P.S. found that article dumped at this forsaken link? why??
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... -1%29.html

Even then dimensions mentioned in this article are quite similar to reported above in news link, i.e. 1.3m dia and 21m height.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 02 Sep 2010 06:32

Cause sid , the concerned person has left BR and the content is CR of him

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 02 Sep 2010 10:27

krishnan wrote:Cause sid , the concerned person has left BR and the content is CR of him

<OT>
Yeah, I am aware of of that. But politics apart, that article is a masterpiece on Agni series. We should try to get it up and running on BR again.
</OT>

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 02 Sep 2010 20:18

Sid wrote:
krishnan wrote:Cause sid , the concerned person has left BR and the content is CR of him
<OT>
Yeah, I am aware of of that. But politics apart, that article is a masterpiece on Agni series. We should try to get it up and running on BR again.
</OT>

Sid, I believe Arun_S had explicitly asked for the content to be removed when he left. There is no way to get it back unless he changes his mind.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Sep 2010 22:40

Didn't see this news item being posted anywhere, so am posting it here. This has been on the cards for a long time but thanks to our (and their) myriad bureaucratic hurdles its only been signed a month ago..

BANGALORE: India has signed an agreement with the US government to purchase 24 Harpoon Block II missiles for its Jaguar strike aircraft, in a bid to ramp up its maritime warfare capability.

Boeing country head, defence, space and security, Mr Vivek Lall told ET, “the deal was successfully concluded through the Foreign Military Sales route late last month, with Boeing as the prime contractor. The missiles are for the Indian Air Force’s maritime strike squadron.”

The deal, expected to be worth about $170 million, has been on the cards for over two years now, with the Bush administration having wheeled out a sales notification during defence minister A K Antony’s visit to Washington in 2008. The US had also sold the same missiles to Pakistan.

The Harpoon Block II is the latest version of the subsonic missile and is able to strike land-based targets and ships. It is an all-weather, over the horizon, anti-ship missile which can be launched from surface ships, submarines and aircraft.

However, Lall said no agreement had been reached yet with regard to supplying the missile for P-8I, India’s long-range maritime reconnaissance and anti-submarine warfare aircraft. The P-8I is scheduled for delivery in 2013.

“The final weapons package for the P-8I is yet to be decided, and will again be sold through the FMS route,” he said.

According to the latest report of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the attack capability of the Navy’s depleted fighter aircraft fleet has been significantly eroded, as they have not been kept in full combat readiness, with the bombs fitted having become obsolescent.

Mr Lall said the Phase II of the Apache and Chinook helicopter programmes for the IAF will be held in the US later in the year. Phase II will involve weapons integration field trials for both choppers.

article link

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 02 Sep 2010 23:18

24 Harpoons for $170 million. Thats just over $7million a pop. Wow at that bargain price I'll take a dozen for my own private collection!
Hopefully this comes with ToT such as how to paint anti-ship missiles white. Currently the Brahmos is an ugly silver color. I wonder how many missiles $7million actually pays for ( lets guess 10). Thats one missile paid for by India and 9 donated to Pukistan with no net loss to Uncle. A win win situation.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 03 Sep 2010 04:05

Maybe, JUST maybe they are paying $7 mill a pop to learn how well can the Paki's alter the Harpoons and study them in depth to counter, or negate their affect on India. After all there is reason why SDRE's are known as "evil yindoos" Just me 2 Cents, gents!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Sep 2010 04:19

Its all part of bridging the trust deficit. Means lining the pockets of arms companies who sell obsolete weapons.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 03 Sep 2010 09:33

ramana wrote:Its all part of bridging the trust deficit. Means lining the pockets of arms companies who sell obsolete weapons.

Only problem is that its just India which is doing its part to bridge the deficit. Meanwhile the US

1. Continues to arm Pakistan against India (oops that's the Taliban)
2. Continues to have Indian entities on the export control list
3. Actively works to subvert Indian media against Indian interests
4. Looks the other way when Indians are likely to get killed (ala 26/11) even when they have information about it

We still continue to "bridge the trust deficit". Benefits only the US, does not benefit us one bit.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 03 Sep 2010 09:34

^^^ Yup, add this $170 mil to the $25 mil of 'flood aid' jaziya Dilli is paying Isloo. Only difference is, one is routed via the UN, the other via the pentagone only.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Sep 2010 09:58

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^ Yup, add this $170 mil to the $25 mil of 'flood aid' jaziya Dilli is paying Isloo. Only difference is, one is routed via the UN, the other via the pentagone only.

^^ Good point!! So, we have paid $195m jaziyya so far and none of it it India's name..

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 03 Sep 2010 12:39

Asked this once earlier and did not get a satisfactory response.

When we buy planes/tanks/helis and test them for performance & user trials, we take them all across the country, subjecting them to the vagaries of terrain & nature. We cold soak them in leh, hot bake them in Rajasthan etc. Only then do the performance parameters get established.

Then how do we do missile test of prithvi/Agni/nirbhay at sanitised test facilities in orissa and feel that they will be ok for launch from anywhere else in the country?
If a missile was to be launched at targets from the mountainous areas, would the lower air-pressure or low temp not make any difference to the launch?
Considering the low range of these missiles, they would be placed in the himalayas to be effective against china.
(I am not advocating that we test agni in the mountains, so no wise cracks)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Sep 2010 14:20

The papers this morning carried news (ET),that under FMS,for any defence eqpt. bought,we will have to pay an additional 3.8% for any FMS as "administrative fees"! This is outrrageous,it is a convenient way of ensuring that moolah for kickbacks is assured.It is also why there is such indecent haste by Dr.Singh to reward the US with billions of dollars under FMS,which the cuurrent CNS at a conference said FMS "heavily skews" the contract in favour of the supplier.Are the services being armtwisted into buying uS systems which as in the case of Harpoon,the Pakis have had the same and used then for decades now! Why didn't we get other qutes from the French for Exocet and the Russians for air-launched "Harpoonski" or even Klub?The Swedes also have excellent ASMs in their inventory.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 03 Sep 2010 14:21

India has signed an agreement with the US government to purchase 24 Harpoon Block II missiles for its Jaguar strike aircraft, in a bid to ramp up its maritime warfare capability.

And we were arguing cost effectiveness of Brahmos

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 03 Sep 2010 14:27

Philip wrote:......... Why didn't we get other qutes from the French for Exocet and the Russians for air-launched "Harpoonski" or even Klub?The Swedes also have excellent ASMs in their inventory.

In case of Russians, Integration would have been an issue since these buy is strictly for Maritime Jaguars...Besides, since only 24 of them, it signifies IN is counting heavily on Air Launched Bramhos which will be available starting 2013/14 onwards

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2010 15:30

^^^It simply means that the said number of Harpoons suffice for a fleet of 10 Jaguar IM. As for IN relying on the Air-Launched Brahmos, which fighter platform is going to use it? AFAIK, the center pylon of Jag can't take the Brahmos plus there might well the issue with length of missile itself.

Question - Scorpene is coming with Exocet. Would not it make sense to buy the same for Jaguar IM Fleet? Or do the Harpoons in some way offer more capability over Exocet?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Sep 2010 16:10

rohitvats wrote:^^^It simply means that the said number of Harpoons suffice for a fleet of 10 Jaguar IM. As for IN relying on the Air-Launched Brahmos, which fighter platform is going to use it? AFAIK, the center pylon of Jag can't take the Brahmos plus there might well the issue with length of missile itself.

Question - Scorpene is coming with Exocet. Would not it make sense to buy the same for Jaguar IM Fleet? Or do the Harpoons in some way offer more capability over Exocet?

Aren't there range differences?

Some time back I wrote this India needs Harpoons? – Analysis

AGM-84L is a mid range antiship missile with a range in excess of 124 kms. This makes is a mid range anti-ship missile. The main competitors are the French Exocet AM-39, with a range of up to 70 km; Russian Kh-35 (AS-20 Kayak) with estimated 130 km range and Swedish RBS-15 Mk. II with 70+ kms range. All of these are sub sonic cruise missiles.

The AGM-84L is probably destined for the maritime Jaguar squadron or the SU-30 MKI’s are to be adapted for maritime strike roles.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Sep 2010 16:18

chacko,

The Exocet MM40 Block 3 is supposed to have a range comparable to the Harpoon. Any way considerig that it is french it will cost alnost 2X the price of Harpoon. The cost of 7Million US$ may have some hing to do with the Integration of the weapon with the Indian Jaguar.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Sep 2010 16:24

Pratyush wrote:chacko,

The Exocet MM40 Block 3 is supposed to have a range comparable to the Harpoon. Any way considerig that it is french it will cost alnost 2X the price of Harpoon. The cost of 7Million US$ may have some hing to do with the Integration of the weapon with the Indian Jaguar.

Blk 3 was qualified in apr 2007. Was not on plate in 2008 when I wrote it.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 03 Sep 2010 16:47

rohitvats wrote:^^^It simply means that the said number of Harpoons suffice for a fleet of 10 Jaguar IM. As for IN relying on the Air-Launched Brahmos, which fighter platform is going to use it? AFAIK, the center pylon of Jag can't take the Brahmos plus there might well the issue with length of missile itself.

Never knew we are planing a two front war with 10 Jags IM for Navy with 24 Harpoons (2 Harpoon per Jag)...

With respect to Brahmos-A, MKI is the platform which will also have maritime duties...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Sep 2010 16:51

chackojoseph wrote:
Blk 3 was qualified in apr 2007. Was not on plate in 2008 when I wrote it.

That is a diffrent matter all together.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Sep 2010 17:39

nrshah wrote:
rohitvats wrote:^^^It simply means that the said number of Harpoons suffice for a fleet of 10 Jaguar IM. As for IN relying on the Air-Launched Brahmos, which fighter platform is going to use it? AFAIK, the center pylon of Jag can't take the Brahmos plus there might well the issue with length of missile itself.
Never knew we are planing a two front war with 10 Jags IM for Navy with 24 Harpoons (2 Harpoon per Jag)...

With respect to Brahmos-A, MKI is the platform which will also have maritime duties...

You're expecting PLAN Surface Combatabs to come screaming out of the Malacca Straits???

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Sep 2010 19:02

Pratyush wrote:chacko,

The Exocet MM40 Block 3 is supposed to have a range comparable to the Harpoon. Any way considerig that it is french it will cost alnost 2X the price of Harpoon. The cost of 7Million US$ may have some hing to do with the Integration of the weapon with the Indian Jaguar.

Exocet MM40 Block 3 for Jaguar ? I haven't heard about the Air launchable Block3 so far.

Harpoon II is a different breed.

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 03 Sep 2010 19:41

What was that news about Pakis having modified Harpoons for attacking land targets ? According to the Frontier India article by Chacko saar, Harpoons had this capability all along.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Sep 2010 20:00

AdityaM wrote:Asked this once earlier and did not get a satisfactory response.

When we buy planes/tanks/helis and test them for performance & user trials, we take them all across the country, subjecting them to the vagaries of terrain & nature. We cold soak them in leh, hot bake them in Rajasthan etc. Only then do the performance parameters get established.

Then how do we do missile test of prithvi/Agni/nirbhay at sanitised test facilities in orissa and feel that they will be ok for launch from anywhere else in the country?
If a missile was to be launched at targets from the mountainous areas, would the lower air-pressure or low temp not make any difference to the launch?
Considering the low range of these missiles, they would be placed in the himalayas to be effective against china.
(I am not advocating that we test agni in the mountains, so no wise cracks)

Hi...you must have watched the Agni-II mobility test all across the country uploaded by the Kash solider in the youtube ? As a system it will be tested. Same goes for other missiles.

A simple answer: Air independent rocket engines doesn't breathe air as that of planes. These has to pass throu much more difficult environment at higher altitudes so naturally they are built to that standard.

Sri Harsha · Post by **Sri Harsha** » 03 Sep 2010 20:04

"India OKs $6.5B Plan To Build Stealth Destroyers
The new destroyers will have greater stealth and advanced sensor and weapon packages, and will be fitted with a 1,000-kilometer-range nuclear capable cruise missile currently being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation with Israeli help, Navy sources said."

Are they talking about Nirbhay, I didn't know Israeli is helping or involvement?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 03 Sep 2010 20:12

i guess it is Nirbhay.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 04 Sep 2010 00:16

I asked DRDO chief Dr VK Saraswat about the Nirbhay cruise missile programme yesterday. He says the subsonic cruise vehicle technology demonstrator, being built with some minor collaboration with Israel (no major systems), has not yet reached system integration stage.

So says Shiv Aroor in Feb. 2010.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Sep 2010 09:52

^ I guess it has to be with propulsion & control.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Sep 2010 09:56

dinesha wrote:Agni-II+ to be tested in Sept. end from Orissa coast
http://orissadiary.com/CurrentNews.asp?id=20926
This newly built missile has a length of 21 meters and diameters of 1.3 meter, weighs around 17 tonnes. It is designed to carry ‘special weapons’ nuclear payload of over 1,000 kg.

It only goes to show that our Nuclear weapon project is not stagnant but thriving and delivering special N weapon.

Agni-II with dia 1m weighs around 17 tonnes.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 04 Sep 2010 10:05

nrshah wrote: Never knew we are planing a two front war with 10 Jags IM for Navy with 24 Harpoons (2 Harpoon per Jag)...

With respect to Brahmos-A, MKI is the platform which will also have maritime duties...

Martime duty will not be restricted to MKI alone. Let LCA join in hordes. You will hear new missiles from the DRDO's kitty; one of them could assume the Anti-ship role launchable from smaller platform like LCA.

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 04 Sep 2010 12:25

Long Range Cruise Missile is being developed by India according to Shiv Aroor blog
any one knows more info in BRF

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 04 Sep 2010 15:13

sathyaC wrote:Long Range Cruise Missile is being developed by India according to Shiv Aroor blog
any one knows more info in BRF

It's a teaser, actual news will be published on 6 of this month, comments mention Nirbhay.

Googling for Nirbhay
Nirbhay will be a terrain-hugging missile capable of avoiding detection by ground-based radar. It would have a range of 1,000km. Nirbhay would weigh around 1,000kg and travel at 0.7 mach (nearly 840kmph) and would be capable of delivering 24 different types of warheads.

I guess shiv has exclusive news on Nirbhay then.