MRCA News and Discussion

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Sep 2010 16:38

It was India only that was not interested in the BAe proposal. It was accepted by the Swidish. Resulting in the Gripin. This is the Story I got from the AFM Forum.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Sep 2010 21:49

chackojoseph wrote:I will tell you something that is not very well known. I also came to know it from a forumite (don't remember which forum) back in 2000 or 2001.

Back then in 1980's, Britain was considering a light fighter and to rationalize cost they wanted a partner. Those days 2 countries were planning to develop such a fighter. Sweden and India. British proposal did not cut ice with these 2 countries. Anyway, even Britain dropped the idea later.

I know its not directly related to what you said, I just wanted to share it.

the proposal was for the BAE P.106 concept of a delta canard light fighter. the RAF was not interested in it at all and Bae basically offered the design to India as well as Sweden. But at that point of time, no decision was made on who would partner ADA and HAL for the LCA, so while they did do wind tunnel testing on the P.106 concept, it didn't evolve directly into the LCA. Sweden OTOH took the concept and finetuned it further to develop the Gripen. Neither the LCA nor Gripen are direct copies of the P.106 but the Gripen evolved much more clearly from that design than the LCA. The LCA OTOH has evolved from a lot of Dassault inputs, including their own data base (ref. Flight International from the 1980s).

One of the more interesting concepts was the Novi Avion, a Dassault JV with the former Yugoslavia..it was basically a single engined Rafale with even a very Rafalesque cockpit. Although I'd imagine that a single M-88-2 (not the ECO core) would've been quite inadequate as far as thrust goes. Anyway, with the turmoil in the former Yugoslavia, the whole project was abandoned.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Sep 2010 22:10

seems to take a long time from basic research to a final product in the fighter arena - showing how many top notch skillsets are needed. F18/F16/F15 are products of basic work done in late 60s and early 70s. likewise the rafale and ef are based on early to mid 80s r&d (germany had a prototype going with NASA).
the US did basic work on stealth from late 70s and had the 1st crude product in a decade(F117) and limited nos of the uber expensive "georgio armani" b2 but the mass production f22 happened later.and once they enter service seems to span 50 yrs via MLUs.

we must not give up on anything.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 01:44

Kartik wrote: the proposal was for the BAE P.106 concept of a delta canard light fighter. the RAF was not interested in it at all and Bae basically offered the design to India as well as Sweden. But at that point of time, no decision was made on who would partner ADA and HAL for the LCA, so while they did do wind tunnel testing on the P.106 concept, it didn't evolve directly into the LCA. Sweden OTOH took the concept and finetuned it further to develop the Gripen. Neither the LCA nor Gripen are direct copies of the P.106 but the Gripen evolved much more clearly from that design than the LCA. The LCA OTOH has evolved from a lot of Dassault inputs, including their own data base (ref. Flight International from the 1980s).

One of the more interesting concepts was the Novi Avion, a Dassault JV with the former Yugoslavia..it was basically a single engined Rafale with even a very Rafalesque cockpit. Although I'd imagine that a single M-88-2 (not the ECO core) would've been quite inadequate as far as thrust goes. Anyway, with the turmoil in the former Yugoslavia, the whole project was abandoned.

Don´t won´t to get off topic here Kartik. But what was the egg and was was the chicken? The BAE P.106 or the Gripen? I mean, look at Viggen and the SAAB proposal A20 Viggen it is pretty close to the BAE P.106 but a few years earlier. It does´nt matter, SAAB/Sweden has always had a good cooperation with the BAE/British. I just don´t want people to get the wrong idea here....

And the Novi Avion. How I would love to have seen that bird fly. Even more so then the Lavi or Tigershark...

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 Sep 2010 03:32

I have an idle thought (very idle). Take a look at Saab's financials:

http://investing.businessweek.com/resea ... r=SAABB:SS
http://investing.businessweek.com/busin ... ncy=native

The market cap for Saab is ~$1.4 billion (Kr 10.3 bn.) and its cash and equivalents = $261MM and the float is 107MM shares. According to Wikipedia (to be corroborated by the SEC filings):

"Since 1998 the British aerospace company BAE Systems has been the largest shareholder in Saab following its acquisition of a 35% stake from Investor AB by its predecessor, British Aerospace. In January 2005 BAE reduced its shareholding to 20%. Investor AB also maintains a 20% share. Investor AB hold 38% of the voting rights and is, with the other Wallenberg institutions, the majority owner."

My idle thought(s):

1. Saab finds itself in the final three from a technical perspective (this is an assumption-- I have no clue), the MRCA is a do or die and Unkil is in there with either(or both) the F-16/F/A-18.

2. Saab knows that at this stage, it's all about the 'deal' (cost, ToT, plus strategic considerations—with Unkil a points edge). So, in fit of Trollhattan (that name is right out of LOTR) imagination to land the MRCA order, it rolls the dice and comes up with:

A. Offer to sell a 50% stake in itself to GOI for ~$2Bn (super majority shares like the Wallenbergs AB Investor) with half the board to be Indian in the Swedish Saab. Perhaps renamed Sahab subsequently

.

B. With the proceeds, to establish a mirror company in India including the knowledge base (manuals, notes --GE watchers will know what this is all about) plus of course, the Swedish Bikini Ski Team

, in effect making the Swedes and the Indians mutually dependent.

C. As part of B, above it joins HAL in developing the LCA MK2

In short, Saab does something that others Unkil, EU and France can't/won't: sell ownership and thus an end run round the offsets.

Its the Borgia wine sharing technique

where guests would clink glasses and pour wine into each others glasses before drinking.

3. OK, back to Jameson scotch after a a rough day.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 04:07

Cosmo_R wrote:I have an idle thought (very idle). Take a look at Saab's financials:

http://investing.businessweek.com/resea ... r=SAABB:SS
http://investing.businessweek.com/busin ... ncy=native

The market cap for Saab is ~$1.4 billion (Kr 10.3 bn.) and its cash and equivalents = $261MM and the float is 107MM shares. According to Wikipedia (to be corroborated by the SEC filings):

In short. Saab is bigger then you think. It it is own by Investor. Wikipedia it....
(Another thing, the leaders of Investor is very old style when it comes to ownership, they are are very nationalistic. The same way as the founder of IKEA, he even refuse to give out his company on the market!)

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 04 Sep 2010 05:00

@Wickberg, I am being facetious. Saab may indeed be bigger than it appears in the Business Week/ Bloomberg link or for that matter in its SEC filings.

Doubtless, Saab has a much better plan than I have posited. They get paid to further the Swedish national interest (I don't) and the Wallenbergs are no doubt no slouches when it comes to managing $13 bn. (zero debt) of their money.

Just thinking differently for amusement. Skol!

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 05:14

Cosmo_R wrote:@Wickberg, I am being facetious. Saab may indeed be bigger than it appears in the Business Week/ Bloomberg link or for that matter in its SEC filings.

Doubtless, Saab has a much better plan than I have posited. They get paid to further the Swedish national interest (I don't) and the Wallenbergs are no doubt no slouches when it comes to managing $13 bn. (zero debt) of their money.

Just thinking differently for amusement. Skol!

Saab does´nt get paid a penny from the Swedish government, (National interest). It´s a private company and get treated that way. Just today Hägglunds (the ones who produces CV90, BV206 and such) decided to sack 150 of their 1000 employees just cause Sweden has decided to buy either a finnish (AMV) or a Swizz(MOWAG) APC with wheels and not the Swedish Vehicle. The Hägglunds version which they have 0,5 mil $ called SEP or Alligator was deemed to immature. We simply decided to by be the best ATM with the growing potentials. 150 people in a small town llike Örnsköldsvik looses their jobs. Tough shit, Hägglunds just have to work harder to cell those CV90s, Vikings and BVs.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 04 Sep 2010 06:51

Le Magnifique Rafale

Naval Rafale as you can make out from the Nose Gear in the photo below & the Arrestor Hook in the Second Photo

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 04 Sep 2010 06:57

looks like small kid wearing size 10 shoes and lifting two bags of cement. not enough meat on the bone to me!

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 04 Sep 2010 07:26

I like the Rafale--- no CISMO no EUA no nagging to sign CTBT and no worry of sanctions should testing of an H-bum arise. To send this contract to Uncle is sheer insanity.

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 08:05

Vishal Jolapara wrote:Le Magnifique Rafale

Naval Rafale as you can make out from the Nose Gear in the photo below & the Arrestor Hook in the Second Photo

This is your answer? I thought this was as a discussion forum. I guess I am wrong. Just post a a few flashy pictures and you don´t have to say anything...

This site is going down so fast....

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Sep 2010 08:08

A matter of life and death for Gripen.. As orders dwindle, will it get an Indian lifeline?

Saab Courts Asia, Eastern Europe to Save Gripen Warplane

Saab AB is stepping up a campaign to sell its Gripen warplane in Asia and eastern Europe as Switzerland’s decision to delay a $1 billion fighter purchase threatens to curtail production of the 1,320 mile-per-hour jet. Orders from Bulgaria, Romania and Slovakia and a follow-on contract from Thailand are “major near-term opportunities” for the Gripen, which competes with models from Lockheed Martin Corp., Boeing Co., Dassault Aviation SA and Eurofighter GmbH, Saab Aeronautics chief Lennart Sindahl said in an interview.

Switzerland will wait until 2015 before awarding a contract to replace ageing Northrop F-5 Tigers, its defense ministry said on Aug. 25, halting a tender regarded as key to the Gripen’s future by analysts including Teal Group’s Richard Aboulafia. Saab is still betting on orders from Brazil and India to save the flagship fighter as the production backlog shrinks, with Malaysia another prospect, Hakan Buskhe, the company’s new chief executive officer, said in his first interview in the role.

“We were a little bit sad that the Swiss postponed, but there was a tricky situation with the financing and I wasn’t totally surprised,” Sindahl said by telephone yesterday. “The good thing is that we haven’t lost the contract.”

The Swedish manufacturer, which is competing with Dassault and Eurofighter in Switzerland, requires new orders as work on 26 Gripens for South Africa and an initial six planes for Thailand runs out in 2012, with an upgraded version not due to enter service with Sweden’s air force until at least 2017. Saab also needs export orders to establish the Gripen as the model of choice in former Soviet and non-aligned markets not dominated by Boeing and Lockheed Martin, which is grabbing contracts with its F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter.

Saab’s ability to offer the Gripen with in-house radar technology is being pitched as an advantage over rival planes and helped it win the existing Thai order, Sindahl said. Still, the Gripen’s prospects have been harmed as delays to contract decisions bring newer models into the reckoning which were unavailable at the time of tende

Regarded as the first of a new generation of fighter planes, the Gripen has been operational with the Swedish military since 1997, whereas the first Eurofighter Typhoon entered service in Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain in 2004.“The Gripen was a capable fighter-bomber long before the Eurofighter was anything more than a pure fighter and you’d have thought there was a window of five-to-seven-years to sell to export markets,” Morris said. “But unfortunately these competitions just kept shifting.”

Saab views Brazil’s requirement for 36 jets as a live competition even after President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva indicated last year that he favored the Dassault Rafale, Sindahl said, with no contract for the order yet signed. In order to boost its chances of winning the $1.8 billion deal Saab has offered to establish joint manufacturing of the Gripen in Brazil, which currently operates Dassault’s Mirage.

India may announce the preferred supplier for a 126-plane requirement by the end of this year after scrapping an April 27 deadline to select a replacement for Russian-built MiG jets dating to the 1970s, Sindahl said. The $10 billion order is the world’s biggest fighter-jet purchase in 15 years and has attracted bids from Lockheed, Boeing, Dassault, Eurofighter and Russia’s United Aircraft Corp.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 04 Sep 2010 08:23

http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations ... _group.htm

The Gripen User Group is a forum for Air Forces operating Gripen, providing members a unique opportunity for multinational cooperation. The group shares experiences about using the Gripen system, enabling a cost effective way for the operators to jointly develop and upgrade the system. Upgrades to Gripen are made frequently during the aircraft’s life-cycle, allowing Gripen to remain one of the most advanced fighter aircraft in the world.

VishalJ · Post by **VishalJ** » 04 Sep 2010 08:24

Wickberg wrote:This is your answer? I thought this was as a discussion forum. I guess I am wrong. Just post a a few flashy pictures and you don´t have to say anything...

This site is going down so fast....

- I was not answering any question
- This IS a discussion forum, people do post photos in forums.
- I post my opinion when i feel fit to
- This site isnt going down at all, definately not the forums

Well over 90% of the members here post opinions, i occasionally post some latest great-looking photos of the MMRCA Contenders.
Its called balance.

PS: Dont quote the entire post, it elongates the thread.

kit · Post by **kit** » 04 Sep 2010 08:30

tejas wrote:I like the Rafale--- no CISMO no EUA no nagging to sign CTBT and no worry of sanctions should testing of an H-bum arise. To send this contract to Uncle is sheer insanity.

True.The next Pokhran could as well ground one third of the IAF if they go for American birds., no matter what the US says now, strategic relationship and all ! Can some one say for sure India will definitely not need a nuclear test to validate its weapons in the coming decade given the relationship with its neighbours ? As I say American fighters should not have been a consideration for the MRCA.If there is any quid pro quo for the nuclear deal, let it go in the commercial nuclear sector with adequate safeguards and precautions.No country should gamble with the operational capability of its armed forces.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Sep 2010 09:34

with an upgraded version not due to enter service with Sweden’s air force until at least 2017.

Then Gripen NG won't be available for IAF MMRCA too.

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 04 Sep 2010 19:23

The photos of rafale were great. Keep them coming Vishal.

It is true that MRCA will be a big deal for SAAB. But what I would like to really like to know is Grippens score in the technical evaluation report. Is it in the bottom or in the middle. How does it compare with Typhoon. Does anybody have any specifics ?

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 19:37

chackojoseph wrote:
with an upgraded version not due to enter service with Sweden’s air force until at least 2017.
Then Gripen NG won't be available for IAF MMRCA too.

That´s because the NG foreign sales comes before the SwAF Einstein. Next question? BTW, who/what article did you quote?

Wickberg · Post by **Wickberg** » 04 Sep 2010 19:39

Vishal Jolapara wrote: - I was not answering any question
- This IS a discussion forum, people do post photos in forums.
- I post my opinion when i feel fit to
- This site isnt going down at all, definately not the forums

Well over 90% of the members here post opinions, i occasionally post some latest great-looking photos of the MMRCA Contenders.
Its called balance.

PS: Dont quote the entire post, it elongates the thread.

So you think it is OK this has become an imaging posting board? I am sorry, I thought this was a discussing forum.
What does the moderators think?

Debal · Post by **Debal** » 04 Sep 2010 20:34

Grt pics Vishal. Carry on posting such grt pics. Buying Gripen is back door entry of Uncle's restrictions, then it is better to buy SH with direct restrictions.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 04 Sep 2010 21:25

Wickberg - Vishal was not responding to your post when he posted the pics, we post MRCA pics if they are available/interesting. If you have nice pics of the Gripen, feel free to post them.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 04 Sep 2010 22:01

Wickberg,

shukla's post, 10th or 11th post before this post.

BTW, it dawns to me that onleee teens are ready with everything India is asking for, includes working AESA.

James B · Post by **James B** » 05 Sep 2010 04:39

Video of a very agile Rafale at an air show

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 05 Sep 2010 05:53

That is one sexy french beast, quite maneuvrable

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 05 Sep 2010 10:37

Boeing's new targeting pod will be ready by 2012..

Boeing, US Navy begin tests on targeting system for Super Hornet fighter

The Boeing Company announced on Thursday that it has begun flight testing along the U.S. Navy’s Air Test and Evaluation Squadron VX-31 on a Distributed Targeting System for the F/A-18E/F Super Hornet air strike fighter. The current phase of testing will conclude in November 2011. The flight tests are undertaken at the Naval Air Warfare Center Weapons Division Advanced Weapons Lab in China Lake, California. The aim of the new targeting system is to ensure that the Super Hornet remains ahead of current and emerging threats in the coming decades.

The Distributed Targeting System produces precise targeting solutions for Super Hornet aircrews by using onboard hardware and software processing. This new targeting capability is part of the Navy’s F/A-18E/F Network Centric Warfare Upgrades program as well as the F/A-18E/F Flight Plan. "Distributed Targeting is a powerful tool that will provide Super Hornet aircrews with highly precise targeting capability when identifying and engaging ground target sets. This is another phase of our evolutionary approach to continuous capability enhancement for the Navy’s combat-proven Super Hornet," said Kory Mathews, F/A-18 and EA-18 Programs vice president for Boeing. If the tests are successful, the new targeting system will transfer to operational testing in late 2011. It is expected that it will become operational in F/A-18E/F aircrafts in 2012.

Have there been any talks of India acquiring E/A-18's in the future if SH is chosen?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 05 Sep 2010 10:37

Duplicate post: self deleted

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 06 Sep 2010 10:26

Debal wrote:Grt pics Vishal. Carry on posting such grt pics. Buying Gripen is back door entry of Uncle's restrictions, then it is better to buy SH with direct restrictions.

Can you please elaborate on this ? How will buying Grippen be a back door entry for Uncle's restrictions?

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Sep 2010 13:38

^^Gripen NG will have GE engine(which is american in origin).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2010 13:41

Luvverly pics of the naval Rafale and her waspish "underbelly"! For a design concept where the engines are mated close to the main fuselage,unlike the widely spaced engines of Russian Flankers and Fulcrums,the curvilenear lines of the Rafale are hard to beat.It is a far more aesthetic design when compared with the Typhoon.It would be most interesting to see which aircraft has the better stealth figures. For the record,does anyone have an inkling of the cost of a naval Rafale when compared with that of a MIG-29K?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 06 Sep 2010 14:33

Philip wrote:Luvverly pics of the naval Rafale and her waspish "underbelly"! For a design concept where the engines are mated close to the main fuselage,unlike the widely spaced engines of Russian Flankers and Fulcrums,the curvilenear lines of the Rafale are hard to beat.It is a far more aesthetic design when compared with the Typhoon.It would be most interesting to see which aircraft has the better stealth figures. For the record,does anyone have an inkling of the cost of a naval Rafale when compared with that of a MIG-29K?

The Rafale was designed to be semi-stealthy, at least headon. Anyone have any info on the active radar cancellation that it is supposed to possess?

Christopher Sidor · Post by **Christopher Sidor** » 06 Sep 2010 15:38

darshhan wrote:^^Gripen NG will have GE engine(which is american in origin).

Which we can replace it with Kaveri, when it is upto the task. That will still be better than FA-18 SE, which will come with its own restrictions on usage and monitoring. Grippen and LCA Tejas have much in common. And we are currently running Tejas on a GE engine.

Grippen will not come with the same level of intrusions that FA-18 SE will come with.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 06 Sep 2010 15:49

Willy wrote:
Philip wrote:Luvverly pics of the naval Rafale and her waspish "underbelly"! For a design concept where the engines are mated close to the main fuselage,unlike the widely spaced engines of Russian Flankers and Fulcrums,the curvilenear lines of the Rafale are hard to beat.It is a far more aesthetic design when compared with the Typhoon.It would be most interesting to see which aircraft has the better stealth figures. For the record,does anyone have an inkling of the cost of a naval Rafale when compared with that of a MIG-29K?

The Rafale was designed to be semi-stealthy, at least headon. Anyone have any info on the active radar cancellation that it is supposed to possess?

Willy , I think you want to know about spectra.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_SPECTRA

Nirmal · Post by **Nirmal** » 06 Sep 2010 15:55

Russia is offering DEEP TOT for AESA Radar and will participate with India for manufacture the same for LCA/MRCA if Mig35 is selected.
Russia Offer Development of Advanced RADARs to India-India Defence

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Sep 2010 19:12

Nirmal,shouldn't this be on the cards anyway with the 5th-gen fighter programme?

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 06 Sep 2010 19:46

Isn't the Rafale significantly underpowered?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 06 Sep 2010 20:43

it has a lower T:W at similar range and payload vs the EF?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 06 Sep 2010 20:52

Carl_T wrote:Isn't the Rafale significantly underpowered?

Wiki quotes as

# Powerplant: 2× Snecma M88-2 turbofans

* Dry thrust: 50.04 kN (11,250 lbf) each
* Thrust with afterburner: 75.62 kN (17,000 lbf) each

I think it is same as Kaveri Engine we have.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 06 Sep 2010 20:55

Kartik wrote: the proposal was for the BAE P.106 concept of a delta canard light fighter. the RAF was not interested in it at all and Bae basically offered the design to India as well as Sweden. But at that point of time, no decision was made on who would partner ADA and HAL for the LCA, so while they did do wind tunnel testing on the P.106 concept, it didn't evolve directly into the LCA. Sweden OTOH took the concept and finetuned it further to develop the Gripen. Neither the LCA nor Gripen are direct copies of the P.106 but the Gripen evolved much more clearly from that design than the LCA. The LCA OTOH has evolved from a lot of Dassault inputs, including their own data base (ref. Flight International from the 1980s).

One of the more interesting concepts was the Novi Avion, a Dassault JV with the former Yugoslavia..it was basically a single engined Rafale with even a very Rafalesque cockpit. Although I'd imagine that a single M-88-2 (not the ECO core) would've been quite inadequate as far as thrust goes. Anyway, with the turmoil in the former Yugoslavia, the whole project was abandoned.

Looks like folks know about it. Yes, its the same and thank you kartik.

manum · Post by **manum** » 06 Sep 2010 22:49

after seeing the pics of rafale...i realized something...which might irrelevent or relevent to discussion...that, dessault had bought ICEM surf....a top A class surface modeling software firm of UK...and standardized it as per its uses...and it shows in its aircraft curves...