Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 08 Sep 2010 01:50

^^ From what I saw in the brochure at livefist , the LRCM is a supersonic and high altitude cruise missile.Whereas nirbhay is supposed to be terrain hugging subsonic cruise missile.

As of now information about LRCM is very scarce and hence it is very difficult to speculate about it.

vic · Post by **vic** » 08 Sep 2010 08:17

My guess for 3 missiles

1. Nirbhay (heavy and light?)

2. Little Brahmoiski (LRCM)

3. Hellina and manportable Nag or perhaps some sort of air lauched PGM like MOAB or even ARM (my guesses)

(As I suppose Agni-V, AD 1 & 2 are slightly far away. SAMHO already revealed and Sudershan is not a missile)

Frankly I believe Indian kitty is missing a WVR air to air missile

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 08 Sep 2010 08:29

LRCM is already revealed

probably PDV and AAD derived ER-SAM/Ashvin unless the ones in question are totally out of known syllabus

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 08 Sep 2010 18:19

hi guys, i guess i will start with some disclaimer. If there is any intention to share whatever little information i know, it only to show our desi programme in good light and to remove any anxiety or self-pity whenever there is some xyz talking highly about the Pak burbur or dingdong missile or someone crowning Chinese having the most active missile programme. In my view, i believe only India and Russia are having the most active *offensive* missile programme and for the *defensive* missile programme the award goes to US and Israel followed by Russia.

Nirmal wrote:Kanson, Can you possibly reveal just the names of the 3 missiles (NEW) yet be unveiled or would that be indulging in some kind of contravention?

With these disclaimer set, let me try to say few things as you say. As the discussion unceremoniously started with AWACS and with proliferation of AWACS type high value objects with our adversaries, asymmetric way of countering that would be through highly energetic missile - ground based AWACS killer. Services show interest in loitering missile, perhaps high altitude loitering missile (HALM, sounds good, eh?). The very intention of developing laser based ABM defense shows we have interest and are developing boost phase defense against BM, the size and location of our adversary to the north-west very much favours such development. One can very much expect a boost phase defense when the phase I of our BMD completes but so far we talked only about the terminal phase defense. And the list doesnt end here. Just as Prithvi acted as a vehicle to put forth our imagination to test new things, Brahmos supersonic fever sparkled imaginations to try some novel concepts. Same goes to Astra. Success of Astra is going to set foot to try few more in that area. With trends catching up in asymmetric warfare and future infantry heavy jungle/mountain/counter-insurgency warfare, things are getting pretty hot in that direction with the aim of increasing the capabilities & firepower density. To summarize, in no way we are lagging to any missile power as far as development goes.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 08 Sep 2010 21:25

darshhan wrote:^^ From what I saw in the brochure at livefist , the LRCM is a supersonic and high altitude cruise missile.Whereas nirbhay is supposed to be terrain hugging subsonic cruise missile.

As of now information about LRCM is very scarce and hence it is very difficult to speculate about it.

nachiket wrote:Bliss to indulge this uninformed abdul. Is this new 500km+ ranged LRCM with 2013-14 test date the same as Nirbhay? If so, what happened to the 1000km touted range of the Nirbhay.

What we are seeing is a very preliminary conceptual sketch of the LRCM.. as the single slide says its development is scheduled to start from 2012 -- which means it has not yet started.. probably not even sanctioned by MoD... DRDO might be preparing a proposal for the same --- and some rough sketches doing the rounds.. so one must not be over-optimistic..

From the picture -- it is not winged.. so must be a ram-rocket like Akash..

Nirbhay is more likley to be a winged-subsonic CM with a longer range..

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 08 Sep 2010 22:14

as the single slide says its development is scheduled to start from 2012

It doesn't say that.

Take a look at the slide again it says:

"XI Plan 2007-12I XII Plan 2012-17
Development Plan"

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... _SLIDE.jpg
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/fi ... ruise.html

Livefist thinks that a test may take place in 2013-14

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 08 Sep 2010 22:43

India in the market for anti-missile system as reported by Chinese media ?

India, the regular customer in the world arms market, now plans to spend three billion US dollars to buy anti-missile systems.

According to reports from US media, the Pentagon's report on the Peoples' Liberation Army (PLA) deploys DF-21 medium-range ballistic missiles in the Qinghai-Tibet Plateau. Therefore, India holds the opinion that the slow development of its home-made anti-missile systems cannot fulfill strategic needs and it thus seeks to purchase the most advantaged anti-missile systems globally to strengthen its defense capability.

Reports say US Patriotic-3 and Israel's Iron Dome and David's Sling missile defense systems are all in India's favour. The contract of Patriotic-3 is likely to be announced before US President Barack Obama visits India in November. Meanwhile, India and Israel both show their willingness to make such a deal for anti-missile systems. However, India must first gain US permission before its purchase of Israel's anti-missile systems, because the development of these weapons relies on the funds and technology of US.

US Patriotic-3 missile system

Israel's Iron Dome missile defense systems

Israel's David's Sling missile defense systems

Analysis points out India's urgent purchase of anti-missile systems results from the pressure of Chinese missiles. Indian defense officials state China targets its hundreds of nuclear missiles at India.

According to reports, US's recent report of Military and Security Developments Involving the People's Republic of China points out in order to enhance military deterrence, PLA deploys more advanced solid fueled CSS-5 (DF-21) nuclear missiles with better anti-destruction performance in the area nearer to the China-India border. India worries that its home-made anti-missile systems are still under development and cannot be put into real battles in a short time. Therefore, it's necessary to bring in the west's more advanced weapons.

China's DF missiles

Indian military experts have stressed many times that China has geological advantages over India when a battle breaks out between China and India. The China-India border is about 5,000 kilometers away from Beijing, while it's only more than 900 kilometers away from New Delhi, which means PLA could launch attack on India's main military targets in the north of India within more than ten seconds by deploying DF-11/15 strategic ballistic missiles. Furthermore, the more powerful DF-21 medium-range missiles have bigger military deterrence to India's military. Therefore, India urgently seeks to purchase advanced and reliable anti-missile systems.

According to Indian media, India's indigenous anti-missile weapons include Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missiles and surface-to-surface "Prithvi" missiles. It's reported that totally five test fires gained good results. An Indian defense expert states the Advanced Air Defence (AAD) missile has better performance than Patriotic-3. He also says India is expected to become the fourth state capable of intercepting missiles with a range of 5,000 kilometers after US, Russia and Israel.

However, an Indian missile expert points out the fatal weakness of India's missile defense is the poor foundation of the national industry. Even though there are foreign technologies, some key parts related with interception missiles cannot be produced at home but can only rely on exports.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2010 00:52

Congrats to Suman Sharma for the clear article on recent Brahmos Blk II test

LINK

jai · Post by **jai** » 09 Sep 2010 01:43

India, the regular customer in the world arms market, now plans to spend three billion US dollars to buy anti-missile systems.

Would be happy to see India Co-develop the S 500 with Russia...maybe call it GangVa (Ganga + Volga)...a la Bhrahmos....

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20090916/156150066.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-500_(missile)

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 09 Sep 2010 02:02

The solution of the chinese missile threat remains in the counter deployment and more rnd and jvs like jai said above, but not inthe purchase of more anti-missile systems from usa.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 09 Sep 2010 03:33

If the threat is imminent, and if India takes time to ope rationalize its Anti Missile, it makes sense to buy for faster deployment against Chinese threat. But buy it from Russia not from US or Israel which comes with strings attached. Russia helped us with Brahmos, so they surely knew how to make Anti missile. $3 billions is not a big money for our security.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Sep 2010 07:22

Thomas Kolarek wrote:If the threat is imminent, and if India takes time to ope rationalize its Anti Missile, it makes sense to buy for faster deployment against Chinese threat. But buy it from Russia not from US or Israel which comes with strings attached. Russia helped us with Brahmos, so they surely knew how to make Anti missile. $3 billions is not a big money for our security.

Thomas sir, what strings did US and Israel attach to any arms sale to India? I see a lots of posts talking about some invisible strings; it would be good to point/list out as to what the strings are.

The strings statement, has become, just like Indira Gandhi's "foreign hand" statement.

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Sep 2010 08:11

Ok, I will take the bait and make a few guesses!

As the discussion unceremoniously started with AWACS and with proliferation of AWACS type high value objects with our adversaries, asymmetric way of countering that would be through highly energetic missile - ground based AWACS killer.

I thought about AAD, PAD-1, PAD-2, AD-1, AD-2 but my vote goes to barak derivative. I think that Barak JV will have 3 missiles. First one with the range of 50-70km second one with the range of 100-120km and third one with the range of 300-400km.

Services show interest in loitering missile, perhaps high altitude loitering missile (HALM, sounds good, eh?).

Ehmmm! Say a derivative of Nishant or more probably lakshya

The very intention of developing laser based ABM defense shows we have interest and are developing boost phase defense against BM, the size and location of our adversary to the north-west very much favours such development. One can very much expect a boost phase defense when the phase I of our BMD completes but so far we talked only about the terminal phase defense.

That would be AD-1 & AD-2

And the list doesnt end here. Just as Prithvi acted as a vehicle to put forth our imagination to test new things,

Prithvi series, Agni Series, Shaurya

Brahmos supersonic fever sparkled imaginations to try some novel concepts.

Light Brahmos, Shaurya, Nirbhay Light and Nirbhay heavy

Same goes to Astra. Success of Astra is going to set foot to try few more in that area.

KS-172, air launched PGMs like ARM, Sudarshan & similar perhaps something like French AASM series ( But we are still missing a WVR AAM missile either in license manufacture or JV or even a indigenous development)

With trends catching up in asymmetric warfare and future infantry heavy jungle/mountain/counter-insurgency warfare, things are getting pretty hot in that direction with the aim of increasing the capabilities & firepower density.

CLGM, SAMO, Manportable Nag (Are we not missing a manpad SAM?) More importanly there is no bread and butter indigenous RPG

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Sep 2010 08:14

D Roy wrote:
as the single slide says its development is scheduled to start from 2012
It doesn't say that.

Take a look at the slide again it says:

"XI Plan 2007-12I XII Plan 2012-17
Development Plan"

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... _SLIDE.jpg
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/09/fi ... ruise.html

Livefist thinks that a test may take place in 2013-14

The pic and specifications are completely identical to ASMP-A of France. It seems like French allowed us a dekho for Scorpene deal

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 09 Sep 2010 09:28

Unlike Israel (which sells for friendship and mutual cooperation), US doesn't sell Advanced weapons for money. Read Advanced Weapons like Anti missile..
You buy an American system you can very well expect this:
~ You cannot run the system yourself.
~ American contractors indefinitely would be based supporting the system. code word for "indefinitely" is "extended periods."
~ End-use monitoring clauses
~ Intrusive inspections
~ Restrictions on offensive deployment
~ There are of course conditionality that a buyer country would need to fulfill before buying equipment from the US. (Geopolitics plays comes here)
~ Most lovely part is, bugs being planted on the advanced system. (well they don't say this openly at least)
Israel advanced weapons fall into the same category as below if the project is funded by US. Now don't question Pakistani's usage of US weapons against us, in their case most of it comes through back door unlike us as we pay 3.5% commission to US govt to buy any of this through the so called FMS route.

VinodTK wrote:
Thomas Kolarek wrote:If the threat is imminent, and if India takes time to ope rationalize its Anti Missile, it makes sense to buy for faster deployment against Chinese threat. But buy it from Russia not from US or Israel which comes with strings attached. Russia helped us with Brahmos, so they surely knew how to make Anti missile. $3 billions is not a big money for our security.
Thomas sir, what strings did US and Israel attach to any arms sale to India? I see a lots of posts talking about some invisible strings; it would be good to point/list out as to what the strings are.

The strings statement, has become, just like Indira Gandhi's "foreign hand" statement.

jai · Post by **jai** » 09 Sep 2010 11:22

Unlike Israel (which sells for friendship and mutual cooperation), US doesn't sell Advanced weapons for money. Read Advanced Weapons like Anti missile..
You buy an American system you can very well expect this:
~ You cannot run the system yourself.
~ American contractors indefinitely would be based supporting the system. code word for "indefinitely" is "extended periods."
~ End-use monitoring clauses
~ Intrusive inspections
~ Restrictions on offensive deployment
~ There are of course conditionality that a buyer country would need to fulfill before buying equipment from the US. (Geopolitics plays comes here)
~ Most lovely part is, bugs being planted on the advanced system. (well they don't say this openly at least)
Israel advanced weapons fall into the same category as below if the project is funded by US. Now don't question Pakistani's usage of US weapons against us, in their case most of it comes through back door unlike us as we pay 3.5% commission to US govt to buy any of this through the so called FMS route.

To add to Thomas' points above, unlikely that the A.khans would transfer technology, and allow manufacture in India..besides, its a huge trust issue with the A.khans...which they seem to be doing nothing to address....the continued sanctions against our scientific establishment, no approval to their own companies to do consulting on the LCA project etc all point to it.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 09 Sep 2010 11:42

It would be pathetic for India to go for the Patriot missile defence. A lot better would be to buy the new s-400 system or to co-develop with russia the s-500 system. This is as a stopgap meassure, for long term we are developing the LR-SAM, PAD and AAD.

Its to be noted that in past we have seen soem deals with americans coming in quick succession.
1) 16 c-17's for the IAF
2) Javeline for the Army.
3) Patriot
4) Artilery
Its simply another way to gift the obama billions which the MMS will be happy to do. All this systems are of strategic importance and how far we can trust the uncle has to be seen. For all these systems we have equal products at the international market which we can have in numbers and with TOT.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 09 Sep 2010 12:28

Thomas Kolarek wrote:If the threat is imminent, and if India takes time to ope rationalize its Anti Missile, it makes sense to buy for faster deployment against Chinese threat. But buy it from Russia not from US or Israel which comes with strings attached. Russia helped us with Brahmos, so they surely knew how to make Anti missile. $3 billions is not a big money for our security.

There is nothing that can ensure that these systems will work exactly what they are supposed to do at the time of war .We have user trials based upon many task specific scenarios but that is only a level measure because the chinese wont let us use their missiles and missile defence for user trials. S
So rather than fast purchase of foreign maal( that too unreliable) they should stress more on counter deployment with the objective of MAD . Missile defence systems with nly work if we have the complete know how of the system and that will come with jvs ,and in that israelis and russians are more trustworthy that americans .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 09 Sep 2010 20:24

yes all that is baksheesh for the nuke deal. It was understood that US will get some baksheesh. At same time it was expected India will benefit too. However that is to be seen.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Sep 2010 20:24

vic wrote:Ok, I will take the bait and make a few guesses!

Thanks for taking the bait,

let see what can i do to bait you more..

As the discussion unceremoniously started with AWACS and with proliferation of AWACS type high value objects with our adversaries, asymmetric way of countering that would be through highly energetic missile - ground based AWACS killer.

I thought about AAD, PAD-1, PAD-2, AD-1, AD-2 but my vote goes to barak derivative. I think that Barak JV will have 3 missiles. First one with the range of 50-70km second one with the range of 100-120km and third one with the range of 300-400km.

Yes...as you guessed...it must be a Barak derivative, you can call that as such.

Services show interest in loitering missile, perhaps high altitude loitering missile (HALM, sounds good, eh?).

Ehmmm! Say a derivative of Nishant or more probably lakshya

These can be converted to loitering missile in the model of Harpy..but i think by high altitude, i mean probably it could be as high as 100 km. RMA talks about reducing Sensor 2 shooting time. This can be achieved by loitering missile, capabilities can be adjusted, accommodated & enhanced as per mission requirement. We are developing Airships with 2+ tonne sensor payload capacity floating at 20 km there by increasing sensor reach in addition to satellites{ some old news }. So with increasing sensor reach it is only natural to expect decrease in shooting response time by such loitering missile/vehicle.

The very intention of developing laser based ABM defense shows we have interest and are developing boost phase defense against BM, the size and location of our adversary to the north-west very much favours such development. One can very much expect a boost phase defense when the phase I of our BMD completes but so far we talked only about the terminal phase defense.

That would be AD-1 & AD-2

Yes, we can expect that along with PDV derivatives.

Brahmos supersonic fever sparkled imaginations to try some novel concepts.

Light Brahmos, Shaurya, Nirbhay Light and Nirbhay heavy

We may have new concepts not tried before using supersonic ramjet engines.

Same goes to Astra. Success of Astra is going to set foot to try few more in that area.

KS-172, air launched PGMs like ARM, Sudarshan & similar perhaps something like French AASM series ( But we are still missing a WVR AAM missile either in license manufacture or JV or even a indigenous development)

Not the ones you listed. I probably let you know when i hear about that.

With trends catching up in asymmetric warfare and future infantry heavy jungle/mountain/counter-insurgency warfare, things are getting pretty hot in that direction with the aim of increasing the capabilities & firepower density.

CLGM, SAMO, Manportable Nag (Are we not missing a manpad SAM?) More importanly there is no bread and butter indigenous RPG

Whatever personal weapon you can think of with the mix of all alphabets can be expected depending upon the interest from the user.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Sep 2010 20:47

vasu_ray wrote:LRCM is already revealed

probably PDV and AAD derived ER-SAM/Ashvin unless the ones in question are totally out of known syllabus

PDV vertical climb height is around 150 km (as per news report), slant range will be much longer. It can be engineered for such role. Q is do we going to sacrifice such missile against slow moving AWACS like aircraft if there are other options.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 09 Sep 2010 20:52

nachiket wrote:Bliss to indulge this uninformed abdul. Is this new 500km+ ranged LRCM with 2013-14 test date the same as Nirbhay? If so, what happened to the 1000km touted range of the Nirbhay.

LRCM & Nirbhay are two different missile as explained in above posts. You can expect testing of Nirbhay happening much before you hear anything about LRCM officially. Both type of missiles are very much needed as one try to complement the other.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 09 Sep 2010 23:20

Enjoy some great info and pic on Brahmos here

Opps, its in Russian and the shaurya has been designated as Brahmos block II.

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 09 Sep 2010 23:48

chackojoseph wrote:Enjoy some great info and pic on Brahmos here

Opps, its in Russian and the shaurya has been designated as Brahmos block II.

http://translate.google.com/#

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 10 Sep 2010 02:24

Ground launched AWACS killer

the spec might be for a 400km range, supersonic missile

Barak JV derived ER-SAM as suggested

Prithvi-4 with four ramjets similar to Akash might have enough range and probably on the cheaper side

Boost Phase interceptor - HALM

this has to be light weight, hypersonic and non air breathing given the 100km launch altitude

probably an Astra derivative doing rolling maneuvers with higher altitude launch giving a better range

Hopefully this is a precursor to sats in the 350km short lived orbits, these sats launch missiles for both boost phase and mid course interceptions, the sats themselves are launched using Agni-5 class SLVs before commencement of hostilities

Ram/Scramjet technologies for

LRCM
supersonic and then hypersonic deriving from HSTDV
Planned hypersonic Brahmos-2 will continue to be an insurance

long range UAVs simulating SEAD mission decoys(armed) for s-300 calibre system

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 10 Sep 2010 03:40

Thomas Kolarek wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:Enjoy some great info and pic on Brahmos here

Opps, its in Russian and the shaurya has been designated as Brahmos block II.
http://translate.google.com/#

Says mass production started in 2004 at 100 pieces per year and increased 200 pieces by 2009.

So we are looking at anywhere between 6-800 apsarasas available as of now. Not bad. We need to make them 2000+ by 2012 somehow.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 10 Sep 2010 05:49

what is stopping them to test the air launched Brahmos from the Tupolev's? instead of waiting for the modified Su-30MKI

Santosh · Post by **Santosh** » 10 Sep 2010 08:11

chackojoseph wrote:Enjoy some great info and pic on Brahmos here

Opps, its in Russian and the shaurya has been designated as Brahmos block II.

Is Shaurya really Brahmos II or is there an element of DRM (Russian version of DDM) in the article?

vic · Post by **vic** » 10 Sep 2010 08:44

Kanson wrote:
vic wrote:Ok, I will take the bait and make a few guesses!
Thanks for taking the bait, let see what can i do to bait you more..

As the discussion unceremoniously started with AWACS and with proliferation of AWACS type high value objects with our adversaries, asymmetric way of countering that would be through highly energetic missile - ground based AWACS killer.

I thought about AAD, PAD-1, PAD-2, AD-1, AD-2 but my vote goes to barak derivative. I think that Barak JV will have 3 missiles. First one with the range of 50-70km second one with the range of 100-120km and third one with the range of 300-400km.

Yes...as you guessed...it must be a Barak derivative, you can call that as such. Ok, I got one right but then I had some help in predicting this one.

Services show interest in loitering missile, perhaps high altitude loitering missile (HALM, sounds good, eh?).

Ehmmm! Say a derivative of Nishant or more probably lakshya

These can be converted to loitering missile in the model of Harpy..but i think by high altitude, i mean probably it could be as high as 100 km. RMA talks about reducing Sensor 2 shooting time. This can be achieved by loitering missile, capabilities can be adjusted, accommodated & enhanced as per mission requirement. We are developing Airships with 2+ tonne sensor payload capacity floating at 20 km there by increasing sensor reach in addition to satellites{ some old news }. So with increasing sensor reach it is only natural to expect decrease in shooting response time by such loitering missile/vehicle. I cannot imagine what and how something can loiter at 100km. Also Airship at 20km sounds easy but it has lot of practical difficulties like how to steer and maintain station. How to get the bloody thing up there by crossing the jet stream, I don't see this system fructifying for atleast 15-20 years.

The very intention of developing laser based ABM defense shows we have interest and are developing boost phase defense against BM, the size and location of our adversary to the north-west very much favours such development. One can very much expect a boost phase defense when the phase I of our BMD completes but so far we talked only about the terminal phase defense.

That would be AD-1 & AD-2

Yes, we can expect that along with PDV derivatives. Public knowlede

Brahmos supersonic fever sparkled imaginations to try some novel concepts.

Light Brahmos, Shaurya, Nirbhay Light and Nirbhay heavy

We may have new concepts not tried before using supersonic ramjet engines. The only other thing I can think of is Ramjet air to air missile with multiple variants. Again 10-20 years away.

Same goes to Astra. Success of Astra is going to set foot to try few more in that area.

KS-172, air launched PGMs like ARM, Sudarshan & similar perhaps something like French AASM series ( But we are still missing a WVR AAM missile either in license manufacture or JV or even a indigenous development)

Not the ones you listed. I probably let you know when i hear about that. The only other thing I can think of is Ramjet air to air missile with multiple variants. Hellina MMR missile?. Astra based ARM? or WVR AAM using spin offs from Astra and Nag? There has to IRNSS guided PGMs also. But all this is again would be 10-20 years away. I wonder why we cannot use LRSAM=MRSAM for Long range AAM also or better use Astra as SHORADS rather than Maitri

With trends catching up in asymmetric warfare and future infantry heavy jungle/mountain/counter-insurgency warfare, things are getting pretty hot in that direction with the aim of increasing the capabilities & firepower density.

CLGM, SAMO, Manportable Nag (Are we not missing a manpad SAM?) More importanly there is no bread and butter indigenous RPG

Whatever personal weapon you can think of with the mix of all alphabets can be expected depending upon the interest from the user. Services will never mandate DRDO to make anything practical or achievable. The new mantra is that what we can import we should do so, to save time and what we cannot import "only" that we should make. This is ridiculous. It means all bread and butter stuff is/should be imported. Like cancel wire guided Nag and import New Milans/Konkurs for Rs. 700 crores. I think that we need to focus on stuff which we need immediately. Some basic stuff which I think is missing is Manpads, VHORADS (not maitri for Gods Sake), RPGs, WVR AAM, sensor fuzed / guided Pinaka-1/2 rockets,

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 10 Sep 2010 10:54

ramana wrote:yes all that is baksheesh for the nuke deal. It was understood that US will get some baksheesh. At same time it was expected India will benefit too. However that is to be seen.

It certainly one valid way to look at it. Other explanations may include: gifts for Indian politicians (US can very easily print few billions in gift for itself), few billions is extremely small percentage for US but it is not that small for India.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Sep 2010 20:02

vasu_ray wrote: Prithvi-4 with four ramjets similar to Akash might have enough range and probably on the cheaper side

It could be. Why Prithvi? Brahmos covers 300 km @ the height of ~15 km. AWACS normally operates at the height of 10 - 15 km (depending upon the aircraft). You can very well use it as such.

Hopefully this is a precursor to sats in the 350km short lived orbits, these sats launch missiles for both boost phase and mid course interceptions, the sats themselves are launched using Agni-5 class SLVs before commencement of hostilities

............

long range UAVs simulating SEAD mission decoys(armed) for s-300 calibre system

I wish & pray whatever you said should come true.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Sep 2010 20:30

vic wrote: I cannot imagine what and how something can loiter at 100km. Also Airship at 20km sounds easy but it has lot of practical difficulties like how to steer and maintain station. How to get the bloody thing up there by crossing the jet stream, I don't see this system fructifying for atleast 15-20 years.

I can only speculate along with you. May be nuclear propulsion/new age plasma thrusters/ low orbital sats/ HSTDV/anti-gravity levitation(we heard about it, isn't it?) You may check the drdo publication about the Airship/balloon. We can talk abt this in another thread.

Public knowlede
Terminal phase interception is in the public knowledge and not abt the boost phase interception.

The only other thing I can think of is Ramjet air to air missile with multiple variants. Hellina MMR missile?. Astra based ARM? or WVR AAM using spin offs from Astra and Nag? There has to IRNSS guided PGMs also. But all this is again would be 10-20 years away. I wonder why we cannot use LRSAM=MRSAM for Long range AAM also or better use Astra as SHORADS rather than Maitri
Hearing about those missiles is not going to take 10 years, buddy. It is not just ramjet/scramjet. It is the concept that getting adapted to the existing solution. For example, you may see that in Pinaka system in improving the range. Or for improving the range and pontency of Anti-tank round fired from Arjun tank(DRDO Chief recently commented something related to this). Of course as you said, AAM like Meteor and scramjet ARM(like the US currently developing).

Services will never mandate DRDO to make anything practical or achievable. The new mantra is that what we can import we should do so, to save time and what we cannot import "only" that we should make. This is ridiculous. It means all bread and butter stuff is/should be imported. Like cancel wire guided Nag and import New Milans/Konkurs for Rs. 700 crores. I think that we need to focus on stuff which we need immediately. Some basic stuff which I think is missing is Manpads, VHORADS (not maitri for Gods Sake), RPGs, WVR AAM, sensor fuzed / guided Pinaka-1/2 rockets,
Definitely what you say are necessary and must try our hands on that.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 11 Sep 2010 12:26

The spec for Pinaka-2 rockets says it has a range of 120km and attains a height of 40km, if ramjet propulsion is integrated are we suggesting that it can attain even longer ranges in its descent phase along with maneuverability? in which case how is this not better than a coasting SAM or a air dropped GPS guided munition?

the weight of ramjet powered Akash or Brahmos runs counter to the above unless LRCM ramjet is a breakthrough in terms of weight

can gurus also enlighten if increasing the altitude of the trajectory to 100km is feasible by improving on such a system? then jettison the first stage (unguided stage with precision determined by the launch platform) and then fire a second stage at that altitude which is hypersonic (non air breathing) for boost phase interception

for one by being lighter the initial climb will be faster than the target missile

and the warhead of a Pinaka-2 rocket is 250kg which can be replaced with the weight of Astra at 154kg as a second stage suggesting feasibility if suitable variants can be developed

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Sep 2010 12:31

we need a good ASAT weapon to knock out chinese satellites. I wonder if shourya can be modified for that role to target sats in 300-700km orbit?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 12 Sep 2010 18:14

vasu_ray wrote:The spec for Pinaka-2 rockets says it has a range of 120km and attains a height of 40km, if ramjet propulsion is integrated are we suggesting that it can attain even longer ranges in its descent phase along with maneuverability? in which case how is this not better than a coasting SAM or a air dropped GPS guided munition?
the weight of ramjet powered Akash or Brahmos runs counter to the above unless LRCM ramjet is a breakthrough in terms of weight

I'm sorry if I'm not made myself clear. I'm only saying it is one of the possibilities and the concept can be adopted in whichever fashion we like & consider as feasible.

can gurus also enlighten if increasing the altitude of the trajectory to 100km is feasible by improving on such a system? then jettison the first stage (unguided stage with precision determined by the launch platform) and then fire a second stage at that altitude which is hypersonic (non air breathing) for boost phase interception

I guess it is possible.

for one by being lighter the initial climb will be faster than the target missile

and the warhead of a Pinaka-2 rocket is 250kg which can be replaced with the weight of Astra at 154kg as a second stage suggesting feasibility if suitable variants can be developed

What is the payload capacity of Astra? If this satisfies the user requirement it can be developed.

vic · Post by **vic** » 12 Sep 2010 22:07

Re kanson

Now we are drifting off towards Star Trek! The idea was that you were giving hints what is "already" in development and would be "unveiled soon". Frankly given a choice I would choose a better rifle or indigenous thermal imager over scram jet ARM

jaladipc · Post by **jaladipc** » 13 Sep 2010 03:12

Just my 2 cents,

vasu_ray wrote:The spec for Pinaka-2 rockets says it has a range of 120km and attains a height of 40km, if ramjet propulsion is integrated are we suggesting that it can attain even longer ranges in its descent phase along with maneuverability? in which case how is this not better than a coasting SAM or a air dropped GPS guided munition?

Firstly,we dont have pure Ramjet tech.We still rely on Ruskies for brahmos engines either solid or liquid fuel.We are still in the process of developing a ramjet for ourself.
Dont get distracted by the integral ramjet tech of Akash since its much different than the actual ramjet aka Brahmos posses ignoring the solid/liquid fuel.And when we are talking of Pinaka,SAM and AGM`s remember we are talking of different species,since there is no relevance to anyone of the three.Each species is specifically optimised to its own purpose,no point of meddling their roles .

the weight of ramjet powered Akash or Brahmos runs counter to the above unless LRCM ramjet is a breakthrough in terms of weight

Akash uses integral ramjet while brahmos uses ramjet.Akash dont need a booster since its own integral ramjet can kick start from 0kmph while Ramjet on Brahmos needs a booster to get the ramjet kicked on which is starving for the ramming air.And we cant compare the weights,only because one uses booster and other got an integral one.It is more about performance vis-a-vis penalities.
LRSAM or wotever the name it gets will be a breakthrough in terms of propulsion.Means getting hands on desi ramjet.

can gurus also enlighten if increasing the altitude of the trajectory to 100km is feasible by improving on such a system? then jettison the first stage (unguided stage with precision determined by the launch platform) and then fire a second stage at that altitude which is hypersonic (non air breathing) for boost phase interception

Must have to be a new sort of strategy to be employed IMHO

for one by being lighter the initial climb will be faster than the target missile
and the warhead of a Pinaka-2 rocket is 250kg which can be replaced with the weight of Astra at 154kg as a second stage suggesting feasibility if suitable variants can be developed

Again why meddling with different species?
Throwing Astra as a second stage on Pinaka is nothing more than like adding a giant booster to astra .Or are we in the process of designing an Arrow type make over?

Wait untill 2015,you will get to hear and see a whole spectrum of missiles and munitions from DRDO which are undergoing developments and in various stages of completion without public notice.Most of your dreams will be fulfilled.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 13 Sep 2010 05:08

Wait untill 2015,you will get to hear and see a whole spectrum of missiles and munitions from DRDO which are undergoing developments and in various stages of completion without public notice.Most of your dreams will be fulfilled.

2015 ain't that far away. Heck I remember 2005 like it were yesterday. Proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Let's wait and hope, then.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Sep 2010 08:43

Saraswat: Agni-V will be test-fired in 2011
http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/oth ... 627692.ece

“Agni-V should be ready to be test-fired anytime next year. It is an intermediate-range ballistic missile,” said the Scientific Advisor to the Ministry of Defence.

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Sep 2010 12:22

Hari Seldon wrote:
Wait untill 2015,you will get to hear and see a whole spectrum of missiles and munitions from DRDO which are undergoing developments and in various stages of completion without public notice.Most of your dreams will be fulfilled.
2015 ain't that far away. Heck I remember 2005 like it were yesterday. Proof of the pudding will be in the eating. Let's wait and hope, then.

Here's a list of what is known:

SSM (Ballistic)

Prithivi 150/250/350/Dhanush

Agni I/II/II+/III/V/SLBM

Pinaka MK.I/Long-Range Tactical Missile

K-15/Sagarika/Shaurya

SSM/ASM (Cruise/Anti-Ship/Anti-Tank)

Brahmos Block I/II/Air-launched

Brahmos 2 Hypersonic

LRCM 600+km

Nirbhay 1,000+km

Nag/HELINA

SAM/AAM

Akash MK.I/II

Barak NG/8

PAD (BM range <2,500km/>2,500km)

AAD (BM range <2,500km/>2,500km)

Maitri LLQRM

Astra BVRAAM

PGM

LGB