Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Arya Sumantra]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/ka ... ingle.html

Kaveri's Compressor Blades + The Indian Single Crystal Effort

Perhaps a silly poochh. Don't know the dimensions of blades but the width of the blade seems shorter than the length of single crystal DMRL is able to grow. Is it possible for them to grow the crystal widthwise from left to right or vice-versa instead of current approach ? Unless the crystallographic orientation along the length of the blade is strictly required but at least it would be single crystal(of different orientation) nevertheless.

Has thoriated Tungsten (used in electric bulb filaments that shoots to very high temperatures) been tried? The filament in bulb industry is prepared by powder metallurgy and thoria(ThO2) added for dispersion strengthening to prevent creep at high temperatures. Although the material may be susceptible to oxidation unlike bulbs which have inert gas filling but the Powder metallurgy preparation techniques and dispersion strengthening processes could definitely be borrowed from industry without reinventing the wheel.

--------
On a different note, it should be considered an advantage that the blades are shorter in length in the hot section which means lower toughness requirement compared to blades in the compressor region. In this regard, ceramic blades could be attempted. The idea that ceramics=brittle only is very old now and a lot of progress has been made in the field. Companies like Kyocera can make a knife out of ceramics that can cut as well as a metal blade and can withstand the impact if dropped from 1 or 2 floors height. The only reason it isn't sold is because it's not economically viable. The same company also makes pumps for corrosive chemicals in chemical industry ENTIRELY made out of ceramics, no metal parts !! Even our refractories industries in India have a lot of experience with some of these ceramics. Remember an engineer deliberately dropping Magnesium Carbide(MgC) bricks on the steel rail and show absence of cracks to demo how strong the bricks were even in green(compacted only, by presses) unfired condition during one of those industrial trips to refractory industry. Of course a brick is a lot thicker than a blade but the point was about exploring such materials(MgC, toughened zirconia, tungsten carbide etc) for blade applications.

In long run, if even the front compressor blades could be made out of ceramics then the need for convoluted S-ducts to minimize the frontal RCS would go away. This has big implications for engine thrust requirements for 5th gen fighters and russkies should definitely explore.

If pure ceramics do not help, Ceramic-metal composites should be attempted for the blades. As a crude example a "broom" comprising of DS metal strips protruding from metal base and ceramic powder compacted around the strips and sintered into final blade shape comes to the mind. The ceramic withstands the high temperature and the metal strips give the tough backing.

JMT

[Philip]

For ages I've felt that the true "sunrise" industry in India was not the IT industry but the aerospace industry.If we take a holistic view of the Indian civil and defence sectors today,the demand for aero-engines alone is enormous.Just look at the number of types of aircraft and helo projects alone,laving out rocket engines for the ISRO and missile engines for the DRDO.

Right from basic trainers,IJTs,AFTs,a complete "portfolio" of combat aircraft and their engines,transports,civilian exec. aircraft,UAV engines....you name it we need it.Therefore it is mystifying why the GOI/MOD has not revamped the GTRE and turned the establishment into the "Aero-Engine Research Centre",where jet engines and truboprops are all designed and built in house,or once designed and developed,offered to private industry to build.We should simultaneously be designing/developing at least 25 engines of indigenous design in such a centre,not just one Kaveri! If you add the spin-offs with re-rated gas turbines for marine/naval applications,engine "Nirvana" is in sight! If such a centre is set up say at B'lore,H'bad,etc.,one can imagine the huge employment generated as well as an entire new species of OEMs dedicated to the manufacture of aero-engine components just as the booming auto supplier industry enjoys.

There appears to be an existing shortcoming in the GTRE and GOI's lack of vision,in also not setting up advanced modern testing facilities for engines,etc.From available earlier reports,we have had to repeatedly send our Kaveri prototypes to Russia for testing only to see many of them "explode" in the past, say some sources.This lack of testing facilities has supposedly affected the Kaveri's development.

[Arya Sumantra]

Do any of these require pouring in a vacuum?

Pouring in vacuum is a means to the end-requirement and not the end requirement itself. Mentioned it only because there are PM parts in the jet engine as well.

Companies like Kyocera can make a knife out of ceramics that can cut as well as a metal blade and can withstand the impact if dropped from 1 or 2 floors height. The only reason it isn't sold is because it's not economically viable. The same company also makes pumps for corrosive chemicals in chemical industry ENTIRELY made out of ceramics, no metal parts !!

What specific ceramic compounds are we talking of here?

The first material(knife) is most likely toughened zirconia but cannot confirm. It's been a long while since i came to know about it. The ceramic pump was shown to me on their brochure but at that time it was not my priority so didn't bother about its materials. I wish I had more details but what i mention is definitely true.

[P Chitkara]

What about the weight of ceramics?

[Neela]

For ages I've felt that the true "sunrise" industry in India was not the IT industry but the aerospace industry.If we take a holistic view of the Indian civil and defence sectors today,the demand for aero-engines alone is enormous.Just look at the number of types of aircraft and helo projects alone,laving out rocket engines for the ISRO and missile engines for the DRDO.

Right from basic trainers,IJTs,AFTs,a complete "portfolio" of combat aircraft and their engines,transports,civilian exec. aircraft,UAV engines....you name it we need it.Therefore it is mystifying why the GOI/MOD has not revamped the GTRE and turned the establishment into the "Aero-Engine Research Centre",where jet engines and truboprops are all designed and built in house,or once designed and developed,offered to private industry to build.We should simultaneously be designing/developing at least 25 engines of indigenous design in such a centre,not just one Kaveri! If you add the spin-offs with re-rated gas turbines for marine/naval applications,engine "Nirvana" is in sight! If such a centre is set up say at B'lore,H'bad,etc.,one can imagine the huge employment generated as well as an entire new species of OEMs dedicated to the manufacture of aero-engine components just as the booming auto supplier industry enjoys.

There appears to be an existing shortcoming in the GTRE and GOI's lack of vision,in also not setting up advanced modern testing facilities for engines,etc.From available earlier reports,we have had to repeatedly send our Kaveri prototypes to Russia for testing only to see many of them "explode" in the past, say some sources.This lack of testing facilities has supposedly affected the Kaveri's development.

Phillip,
All valid points.

Please allow me to rant about this and restate what has been said in thread many times over and over.

PLease do not blame the GTRE.
The vision to see the industry learn and grow rests squarely with the GoI. It needs massive infrastructure and education outlays which only the GoI can afford.
In this age of instant gratification, especially after the year 2000 when the economic boom came in, it is difficult to persuade netas to see the benefits of such investment in 10-15 years.

Compare this with the IGMDP programme. Started in the late 80s. A slow gradual learning process with most of the components sourced internally. A good 15 years later and look at kind of missiles cropping up to suit specific needs. That is the vision needed for Aero engines.

The areas that need focus are:

- Test infrastructure including air frames.
- Metallurgy and materials technology
- Thermodynamics
- Mechanical Engg
- Aerospace engineering
- Production technology

All this needs to be groomed from the beginning with UG,PG and Doctorate programmes in dedicated universities.
Industry needs to be roped in.Research labs to hive off work to both educational institutions and industry completing the triangle.
To come up with a working engine in such a short time , running to test facilities in Anecom , Germany and CIAM, Russia is quite a significant achievement.

We need to accept the fact that it is difficult. But we are closing the gap. The GoI needs to understand the potential and give this industry a mighty push.

As for the Kaveri, we do not know what the final figures are and I think chackojoseph is held back by compulsions. Let us wait and see. Have to learn to walk before we can run.

[Rishirishi]

have the 1250 dudes in GTRE, managed to produce anything useful?

Just wondering.

Please do not troll. Building an engine from scratch is not a joke. Look at the Chipanda's efforts. With all their immense manufacturing strengths, they are still unable to get it working.

There are a decent number of engines under test @ GTRE. With their fabulous budget of Rs 152 cr each year, we deserve what we get. Kindly desist from applying personal disappointments and/or lack of objective judgments to an effort that will prove critical 10 years from now.

The dudes have been arround for over 60 years, and have yet to produce something useful. And why do you think such an organistaion is going to produce anyting useful in the future. I tell you they cant, because they are managed like you manage Burger King. People get the post acording to seniority, smart people leave, as the get better pay other places. All GTRE and the likes are good at is making announcements of future paper tigers, and get funding.

[NRao]

- Test infrastructure including air frames.
- Metallurgy and materials technology
- Thermodynamics
- Mechanical Engg
- Aerospace engineering
- Production technology

Ah .........

when someone said that in the 80s or so no one listened. However, glad to see it has come up in 2010.

Also, perhaps, one other filed has a greater urgency - Project Management. Management in general, projects in particular. Sorely lacking.

IT has its place and has supplied the current financial gains for the nation. It is not going to go away, unless India does a HF-24 on that too.

[manum]

I tell you they cant, because they are managed like you manage Burger King. People get the post acording to seniority, smart people leave, as the get better pay other places. All GTRE and the likes are good at is making announcements of future paper tigers, and get funding.

thank you for the valuable insight...

[merlin]

Also, perhaps, one other filed has a greater urgency - Project Management. Management in general, projects in particular. Sorely lacking.

Completely disagree. Totally.

[vic]

The problem is that we have till date only spent US$ 500 million on Kaveri but are ready to give US$ 2 Billion to frenchies for lending their ready made engine design. We need to learn to put our money and confidence in our own projects

[Neela]

The dudes have been arround for over 60 years, and have yet to produce something useful.

BEEP! Wrong. IN is actively involved in Kaveri Marine.

And why do you think such an organistaion is going to produce anyting useful in the future. I tell you they cant, because they are managed like you manage Burger King. People get the post acording to seniority, smart people leave, as the get better pay other places. All GTRE and the likes are good at is making announcements of future paper tigers, and get funding.

That is an insult to the folks at GTRE. Are you implying that there is nothing for GTRE to show apart from "paper tigers" and that they are after funding!
If thats the case, you need to learn what is happening. You are making very ignorant remarks.
And this is remarkably similar to the general attitude during ASLV times.
Please read my comments about the IGMDP programme. It takes time.
My take on this :
If it is going to take another 10 years so be it. Just as for the LCA programme when we closed the tech. gap, we need to do this for the engine development as well.

[PratikDas]

What I don't understand from all this talk of 10 years for the Kaveri to shine is the purpose of the high-altitude tests of the Kaveri planned in October.

Are we then conceding that the Kaveri (air-borne, not marine) won't power anything in numbers for another 10 years?

[darshhan]

The problem is that we have till date only spent US$ 500 million on Kaveri but are ready to give US$ 2 Billion to frenchies for lending their ready made engine design. We need to learn to put our money and confidence in our own projects

Vic , You are absolutely right.It seems like whole system is configured to enable imports and let the indigenous development fail.Another example would be the LCA development.I was checking the figures.Less than $4 billion have been spent on this project over a period of 25 years(which is a pittance for such a strategic project) and now we are ready to spend more than $10 billion for the MRCA since the LCA has been delayed.

India has to learn to be more generous as far as indigenous weapons R&D is concerned.Otherwise even in 2030 we will be importing majority of our defense equipment which will be subject to various restrictions and conditions.

[manum]

yeah...so we must spend on every seemingly promising paper tiger...than maturing it to a level where it proves itself that worthy...

what i mean here, is, now this thing you are saying looks alright, what about few years back, when we didn't even know, material technologies of the engine...
and so if we had plans of brahmos and were so sure of making it in 1998, we should have gone out and spend all our willingness and money ofcourse to support it...
its better to keep things running under control and long term...than spending alot, failure and trashing it, because it's not sustainable anymore...
more sensible is to keep on experimenting till it starts looking promising, or we see sufficient possibilities generated with time passing...and then launch things from there...

[darshhan]

^^But R&D has always been a risky endeavour.If a nation is unwilling to take the risk of adequately funding R&D projects it can never become technologically advanced.

And yes you are right there will be many projects which will not fructify.The money invested in those projects might not bring you the returns that you hoped for.But then if you want to become advanced in Science and technology, you have to be prepared for failures.There is no other way around it.

In fact do you think that every American or Russian or Chinese effort is successful?Ofcourse not.But even in failure there is a silver lining.You gain tremendous knowledge about the field and you also know what does not work.

[manum]

so tell me...how many fighter jet engine variants you see...in those, how many we'll call modern, and how many nations have them?
why for LCA MK2 we have only two engines sorted out, 1 GE another eurojet? what about russians, cant they after so much of vast experience, almost being a leader simply make an engine for PAKFA...next gen engine...
and where are chinese? if they have achieved alot?
and where is Kaveri and GTRE? if we have achieved so less, due to less funding...

so you think after good amount of funding as per above poverty line...and obviously great management, we would have somewhere else?

[PratikDas]

so tell me...how many fighter jet engine variants you see...in those, how many we'll call modern, and how many nations have them?
why for LCA MK2 we have only two engines sorted out, 1 GE another eurojet? what about russians, cant they after so much of vast experience, almost being a leader simply make an engine for PAKFA...next gen engine...
and where are chinese? if they have achieved alot?
and where is Kaveri and GTRE? if we have achieved so less, due to less funding...

so you think after good amount of funding as per above poverty line...and obviously great management, we would have somewhere else?

Are you saying that the genius required to figure it all out hasn't been born in the country or that the flash of genius to one of the team members could talk any number of years?

[manum]

no I am not saying that...there is enough genius, there was enough genius....but in "was", there wasn't enough know how and resources...and in that, what we have achieved is commendable, respective to similar chinese examples quoted by few...the GE and Eurojet (rolls Royce) example doesnt suits us, they have experience of 100 years in making engines, in that the jet engine experience must be 60% of its time...

(The Eurojet EJ200 is a military turbofan, used as the powerplant of the Eurofighter Typhoon. The engine is largely based on the Rolls-Royce XG-40 technology demonstrator which was developed in the 1980s....Rolls-Royce began development of the XG-40 technology demonstrator engine in 1984....On 2 August 1985, Italy, West Germany and the UK agreed to go ahead with the Eurofighter....The Eurojet consortium was formed in 1986 to co-ordinate and manage the project largely based on XG-40 technology....n December 2006, Eurojet completed deliveries of the 363 EJ200s for the Tranche 1 Eurofighters.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurojet_EJ200

now from the time line of this successful, the most modern engine we could find for ourselves, if not tranche 2 of the same...it is understandable, Engine is not something where you can throw normal questions and ask why's just like that...

now, we have to run with Engine, with LCA reaching it's IOC this year...given we have foothold many departments which we never had when we had started, and if Kaveri is poised to run for 10 more years before flying anything, then what is your take? are we short of genius's in country?

in above comment of mine, I was trying to elaborate something else, not the flash running for years, at least i was trying to tell engine is not just any kind of flash, its a very special flash.

[PratikDas]

I'm not questioning Indian talent. I'm trying to set realistic expectations.

With your logic, there is nothing to justify why it would take only 10 years to get Kaveri to the state of the art. Why 10? Why not 20 or 30? After all, the talent was always there, is there now, and will continue to be there. With your logic it is just sustained effort and good luck that will eventually get us to the goal. Now this might very well be true to the art of making a modern whatever-generation engine but the expectations have to be set accordingly.

This 10 year rubbish must be stopped.

It will take as long as it takes.

Added later: In fact, as the Kaveri project is a government initiative at the moment, I am for transparency. Assuming the October high-altitude tests are to be a resounding success and even then the Kaveri isn't close to competing with contemporary alternatives, then I'd like to see the shortcomings being openly listed so that the appropriate contributions, even if only monetary or in human resources, from private enterprise can be introduced.

I am for the IAF adopting the Kaveri as a national project. All questions of inept project management from well-meaning individuals will then disappear because that would be tantamount to questioning the integrity of the IAF. When the Kaveri eventually flies, all questions of the customer being dissatisfied with the product would be moot. The producer and the costumer would be one and the same.

[manum]

yes, we are on same page...reading different paragraphs thats all...
in current situations and as per new developments, now its time Kaveri must be put to full throttle with transparency assured...

[SriSri]

Kaveri Engine to be Ready for Installation by 2018: DRDO

The Indian-built engine for the country's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) may be ready for installation in 2018, a senior official of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has said.

'The gas turbine engine Kaveri will replace the GE-404 engines which are now being put in the LCA,' DRDO's chief controller of research and development Prahlada told reporters. The Kaveri engine, a Rs.2,000 crore project, is being developed by one of the DRDO labs based in Bangalore, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

Test runs of the first complete prototype Kaveri began in 1996. However fed up by the delay in fully developing the engine, the defence ministry shelved its plans to build a fighter aircraft. The Kaveri engine project got revived in 2006 following a joint venture formed between the DRDO and French company, Snecma, an engine-maker, to jointly develop it to fit in the LCA.

The GTRE GTX-35VS Kaveri is a afterburning turbofan being developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), a lab under the DRDO in Bangalore, India. An indigenous Indian design, the Kaveri was intended to power production models of the HAL Tejas fighter, originally called the "Light Combat Aircraft" (LCA), but it was officially de-linked from HAL Tejas program in September, 2008. Now GTRE is running two separate program for engine, the two different platforms are K9+ Program and the K 10 Program.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4526

[Austin]

^^ So this will be the new Kaveri with a thrust rating of atleast 90 Kn ?

[P Chitkara]

And will this be the engine with snecma core?

[Drishyaman]

^^ So this will be the new Kaveri with a thrust rating of atleast 90 Kn ?

A 90 KN Kaveri to be developed by GTRE by 2018 ?

The plan is to have a new engine for Tejas MK-II which may be either of 98 KN GE 414 or 90 KN EJ200. Future iterations of EJ200 are expected to be 100+ KN. Now if either of the above two is selected for Tejas MK-II, will the IAF ever agree to have a version of Tejas MK-III with Kaveri Engine (90 KN) in 2018. Considering the fact that Tejas with Kaveri will be having lesser thrust than the earlier Tejas MK-II.

If its only about replacing the GE 404 engine in Tejas MK-I with 90 KN Kaveri Engine in 2018, then it might be a different story.

All said and done, it seems to be a moving goal post for the Kaveri Engine and will the IAF ever open their heart for 90 KN Kaveri in 2018 is the biggest question.

Surely, more thinking needs to be done.

[Kailash]

Kaveri and LCA have been decoupled, trying to couple them again is just wishful thinking. It will never power and LCA that is sold to the IAF or IN. Keeping kaveri coupled it with Tejas would have killed both programs. Now LCA is nearing IOC, and Kaveri is still alive..

But it could always be integrated with the LCA airframe and tested, improved upon. Trainers, export variants etc can be fitted with it as a cheaper, sanction-proof option. Strap on a TVC to it and get valuable test data. Talk about spin-offs for CMs, choppers,UAVs, talk about the scientific and material base that the program created. But Kaveri on LCA wont happen.

[manum]

On 2 August 1985, Italy, West Germany and the UK agreed to go ahead with the Eurofighter. The announcement of this agreement confirmed that France had chosen not to proceed as a member of the project.[3] One issue was French insistence that the aircraft be powered by the SNECMA M88, in development at the same time as the XG-40.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurojet_EJ200

M88 has variable camber fan inlet guide vanes, the HP compressor has a sixth stage and the exhaust nozzle is of the ejector type. The M88 delivers 50 kN (11,250 lbf) of dry thrust and 75 kN (17,000 lbf) in full afterburner.
Like its contemporaries, it features state-of-the-art technologies such as single-crystal high-pressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy discs and full authority digital engine controls.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snecma_M88

In June 2010, the Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter, providing 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust is being considered an option by DRDO.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GTRE_GTX-35VS_Kaveri

[Drishyaman]

Don't understand the logic why GTRE will only be able to develop a 90 KN Kaveri by 2018. If GTRE has been able to develop 83-85 KN using a Snecma M-88-2 core in June 2010. Ultimately, GTRE is going to get technical inputs from Snecma in return for hard cash. I believe it should be complete technology transfer for Snecma core and the engine I believe is being called K-10.

What the Goverment should be doing is cut a deal again with Eurojet for EJ200 for Complete Technology Transfer before confirming EJ200 as the choosen one for Tejas MK-II.

This would help GTRE in mastering the Technology for the engine and help GTRE in closing the gap in developing 90+ KN Kaveri Engine in shorter duration.

Looks like a easy solution from my point of view but there might be bigger question on feasibility.

I guess a feasibility analysis is required.

[vic]

Kaveri Engine to be Ready for Installation by 2018: DRDO

Now GTRE is running two separate program for engine, the two different platforms are K9+ Program and the K 10 Program.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4526

I think it would be better if GTRE pursues 4 programmes:-

K9+ for improved Kaveri

K10 for Snecma M88 called Kaveri JV for saving H&D by spending Indian taxpayer money

K11 for developing all new fully indigenous engine (similar tech level as k10) as a fail safe for refusal of other nations to transfer full tech for K10-One should involve pvt sector from the beginnning in this progamme

K12 to start planning for next gen engine after K10-K11 so that we can come level with the world - One should involve pvt sector from the beginnning in this progamme also

[Kanson]

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/08/ka ... ingle.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/T ... averi4.JPG
2. Titanium Aluminide - Sic composites ( Snecma )

The Kaveri engine project got revived in 2006 following a joint venture formed between the DRDO and French company, Snecma, an engine-maker, to jointly develop it to fit in the LCA.

hmm..
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4526

[Kanson]

Don't understand the logic why GTRE will only be able to develop a 90 KN Kaveri by 2018. If GTRE has been able to develop 83-85 KN using a Snecma M-88-2 core in June 2010. Ultimately, GTRE is going to get technical inputs from Snecma in return for hard cash. I believe it should be complete technology transfer for Snecma core and the engine I believe is being called K-10.

Maybe that will be the time for replacement after the life of current GE 404 engine.

[P Chitkara]

Why would the French or for that matter anyone give us critical technologies and create a competitor for themselves?

This is, if they are not giving us technology which for them will very soon become obsolete.

[Willy]

What should be done is that they should start designing a new engine for the AMCA NOW!!! Both a foreign partner and the Indian Pvt. Industry should be involved right for the begining. It's only then that the AMCA will be in a position to be test flown with an indigenous engine.

[NRao]

Do not be carried away by such talks. Transfer of technologies is NOT transfer (years and years) of research.

And, no matter what India does (or does not do), India will have to either hack computers and get this research or do it over the next 20-30 years.

No alternatives.

[Neshant]

TOT is largely a load of bullocks. You cannot download the brains of foreign scientists & engineers which is what's behind the R&D that went into a product.

You can only develop and R&D base by doing, not paying large sums of money to foreigners.

[ShivaS]

absolutely on Dot Nrao and Neshant
No country will pass the technology and our public and private sector never spend money time or brains to do in house with out foreign help.

we cant make mountain guns we cant make 155 mm guns after so many years and so much investment inOFPs

[P Chitkara]

Years and years of research experience cannot be transferred. Assuming even if (a big if) actual TOT takes place, nothing can substitute the experience gained while creating that technology. Even after the TOT, creating the follow on piece will continue to be as difficult.

It is for this reason that there are very few leaders in technology. They never stop working and keep investing to improve. It is only logical to say we should stick to kaveri, improve it, and spawn a host of other engines from it. Only then will we be able to truly be in the league of select few.

[Drishyaman]

On three occasions during 1944, individual B-29s made emergency landings in Soviet territory after bombing raids on Japanese Manchuria and Japan. Stalin tasked Tupolev to clone the Superfortress and Soviet industry was able to produce 20 copies of the aircraft in just two years. And thus Tupolev Tu-4 was born which was a reverse-engineered copy of the U.S. made Boeing B-29 superfortress.

Soviets were able to reverse-engineering a frontline U.S. bomber just by dismantling and studying the dismantled parts in 1940s. They did not get TOT for the same neither did they have any design documents for the B-29.

I can give more examples of how the soviets were able to crash their development efforts in developing their Nuclear Bomb just by smuggling out nuclear secrets out of Los Alamos lab. They didn't get TOT for the same from U.S. but what they were able lay their hands on was bits and pieces of U.S. Nuclear documents. What the Soviets were able to do was reduce their R&D effort in developing the Soviet Bomb by 3 yrs.

Now my argument is can we expect the GTRE to improve upon the Kaveri Engine which has already developed 83-85 KN in June 2010. The expectation is only to close the gap in technology so that they are able to develop a Engine with 90 KN thrust. What the GTRE has in hand is 21 yrs experience of doing research in Jet Engine and credibilty of developing a workable Kaveri Engine. It would be wrong to assume that GTRE doesn't know the ABC of Jet Engine. GTRE is no novice in Jet Engine but at the same time they might not be proficient enough.

I am surely not saying that years of research in Jet Engine Research can be done away with TOT. But definately, the niggling gap in Technology for developing an acceptable engine can be bridged with TOT. For example, may be the development of time of 8 yrs can be crashed to 2 yrs. I am talking about fast tracking the project. ZIMBLE

What the GTRE has in hand (rather can have) is :

a. 21 yrs of experience in doing research in Jet engine.
b. Consultancy from Snecma.
c. Backing from the goverment in pressursing Eurojet for Transfering future Jet Technology. What carrot the goverment can show the European is promise to confirm EJ200 as the preferred engine for Tejas MK-II. Also, the carrot of confirming Eurofighter as the MMRCA. Remember $10-12 billion are involved inaddition to the money involved in 100+ engines for Tejas MK-II.

[Drishyaman]

Why would the French or for that matter anyone give us critical technologies and create a competitor for themselves?

This is, if they are not giving us technology which for them will very soon become obsolete.

Now to the questions as to why a country will pass the Cutting Edge Technology. ZIMPLE. Its for the money-honey.

Remember the Swedish are prepared to transfer the Complete Technology for Grippen. Don't they have the fear of creating another competitor for themselves? So, it again boils down to money.

Czechs were willing to do the Complete Technology Transfer for Aero L-29 Delfín,which was on offer to India sometimes back. Why ? Its for the Money again.

Why did Russians rope in Indians for their 5 th Gen Fighter Aircraft. Its for Money again.

So, my argument is "Money the Prime Mover" here.

Anything can be brought. Its only the price that matters.

Baap bada naa Bhaiya, Sabse bada Rupaiyaa (Oops !! Sorry, It should be Green Dollars)

[geeth]

>>>TOT is largely a load of bullocks. You cannot download the brains of foreign scientists & engineers which is what's behind the R&D that went into a product.

IMO, this argument is not applicable in this case at least...

GTRE is not looking around to find people who can teach them ABCD of Gas turbines..There is enough talent to design a cutting edge engine on paper. But when it is to be built, they/the concerned agencies lack expertise - expertise in metallurgy, manufacturing precision components etc. Here is where they are looking for ToT. For eg., they understand the need for Single Crystal blades for increasing the TET, and its effect on improving the cycle efficiency. But there is no one in India who can produce the Single Crystal blades. Same with other manufacturing processes. The machines available in India may not be sufficient for accurately machining the blade profiles of compressor and turbine, even if they can generate the profile on a computer....so on and so forth.

Let us stop asking over and over again, why GTRE is not producing the cutting edge Jet Engine. The Answer is simple..There are many other agencies involved and our own research /manufacturing/metallurgy has reached thus far only.

[shiv]

Anything can be brought. Its only the price that matters.

Only in a sense.

Suppose we pay good money and buy an engine to power a Boeing 737 size aircraft.

Then suppose we want to use that tech to make engines for our own A-380 class aircraft. Merely scaling the engine up by making everything bigger will not work.

The exact details of what will work and what won't work comes from years of failures and partial successes. We just don't have it and unless we put that experience under our belt and do not stop even if we fail we will never ever get there. We can buy those years of experience by buying people though.