People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

TonyMontana · Post by **TonyMontana** » 16 Sep 2010 04:53

Rudradev wrote: Well worth India's calculating that China will make the former choice.

What do you think realistically is the possibility of India adopting the Samson option when attacked by Pakistan?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Sep 2010 05:11

Realistically ...if pakis attack India ...the Samson option for India is to take China down with it as much as it can

...btw..pakis needs no Samson option on our part.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 16 Sep 2010 05:17

TonyMontana wrote:
The problem with being the mad dog in the region is that if you set the line too low. ( ie instead of the line being at "threat to existance", the line is at first nuke use by pakistan, no matter now small the damage is) You actually invites massive nuclear first strike. What if Pakistan degenerates into a state where China no longer have full control over their nuke? Would China wait and see if India will use the Samson option? Or should she strike first with a superior nuclear force and take her chances?

TM garu,

You made me think for a change.

Perhaps India should donate a couple of nukes to a non-state actor faction in Afghanistan and let them test on Paki soil. Also donate few nukes to some Myanmar rebels in PRC border region and threten to use them in PRC if anything happens to North Korean GDP.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 16 Sep 2010 07:31

abhishek_sharma wrote:South Asia beckons China
M.K. Bhadrakumar

http://www.hindu.com/2010/09/16/stories ... 761000.htm

From above article:

However, we cannot insist that regional stability is synonymous with India's primacy. The international community will only mock at us if we do so in this era of globalisation. As, for that matter, was the region in a blissful state of stability even in the halcyon days when India's influence reigned supreme? In short, the rise in China's influence in the region can lead to peace and regional stability provided we eschew outdated notions of “sphere of influence.” On the contrary, a struggle will inevitably ensue if India chooses to contest China's growing influence since the quintessence of that choice will be that India is prepared to sacrifice peace and stability in the region in its quest for regional primacy. Our South Asian neighbours will only see our choice as a quest for regional hegemony and they cannot be expected to accommodate hubris.

This is a strawman that Bhadrakumar is trying to push ... first he has to justify his claims that India has been demanding a "sphere of influence".

Secondly, why should not India's policies w.r.t. Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan reflect Chinese policies w.r.t. Pakistan.

It is upto China to make wise choices. They cannot support rabid dogs and expect no consequences.

On the other hand, India too has suffered from deranged leaders like Nehru.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Sep 2010 07:43

Pranav wrote:
Secondly, why should not India's policies w.r.t. Vietnam, Taiwan, South Korea and Japan reflect Chinese policies w.r.t. Pakistan.

It is upto China to make wise choices. They cannot support rabid dogs and expect no consequences.

It is China which has decided to not have peace after their decision to arm Pakistan

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Sep 2010 09:53

Pranav wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:South Asia beckons China M.K. Bhadrakumar
From above article:
. . . provided we eschew outdated notions of “sphere of influence.” On the contrary, a struggle will inevitably ensue if India chooses to contest China's growing influence since the quintessence of that choice will be that India is prepared to sacrifice peace and stability in the region in its quest for regional primacy.

M.K.Bhadrakumar is very patchy and inconsistent. Look at the above excerpt. On the one hand, he says that India should give up 'outdated notions of spheres of influence' and in the same breath he says India should not contest 'China's expanding influence'. What is he conveying ? That, India must be subservient to China ? Is this the influence of The Hindu or is this diplomat genuinely like this ?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 16 Sep 2010 10:04

Visa ceiling lifted; easier for Chinese to work in India

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Visa-ceil ... 00644.aspx

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 16 Sep 2010 10:07

abhishek_sharma wrote:Visa ceiling lifted; easier for Chinese to work in India

The Pacifist Indian response, which is not unusual.

vina · Post by **vina** » 16 Sep 2010 10:19

The more I look at China's strategic choices, I am struck at the state of it's client states.

1) Albania - China's toe hold in Europe. A perennial basket case, finally put out of it's sorry misery of a Commie dictatorship

2) North Korea - A starving basket case that will eventually collapse and which China will have to continue nursing by treasure and food and support to precisely prevent such a collapse

3) Pakistan - Another case that will eventually collapse. It will be interesting to see what happens after the US pulls out of Afghanistan. The flow of aid money will stop and if Afghanistan gets partitioned with a Pashtunistan created, Pakiland will be locked in a death struggle over NWFP and FATA with Pashtunistan and serious sparks spilling across the border into the waiting powder keg in Xingjiang. Here too China will have to spend an inordinate amount of money and treasure and everything to sustain Pakiland.

All in all, China's proxies could soon become millstones around it's neck and the soft underbelly of China (Xingjiang and Tibet) will get increasingly poked rather sharply.

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 16 Sep 2010 11:59

^ Two approaches to power (its cultural) - hierarchical the other social networks.

The Chinese have mastery over the former and rarely deploys the latter.
Perhaps it is because that is how they deal with dissent and consent internally!

To put it crudely in terms of Indian politics - Local goonda become MLA, has goonda friends
who can be enforcers in the local region. Suddenly there is an opening in Center.
Party deems him too 'hot' to deal at national level a more networked mellow fellow is chosen.

If China wants to play great power politics, it will need to learn to network more...
It is all about how to deal with Frenemies, not dimwitted drones!

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 16 Sep 2010 12:12

Cross-posted from the Managing China thread:

And the debate in the Taiwanese media today seems to mirror our own...
TAIPEI TIMES: Myth about our nuclear development program

Arihant · Post by **Arihant** » 16 Sep 2010 12:31

Cross-posted from the Managing Chinese Threat thread:

Very interesting statistics, from the KMT's own news site, based on a survey done by its own mouthpiece: Opinion poll on Taiwanese attitudes to relations with China

Dot point 2 on the page is particularly revealing - only about 14% of Taiwan's population would accept annexation by China at any point in the future.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Sep 2010 13:10

SSridhar wrote:
abhishek_sharma wrote:Visa ceiling lifted; easier for Chinese to work in India
The Pacifist Indian response, which is not unusual.

Haha..we are banging our heads on PRC related threads how GoI can cause takleef to China...and what do we know now?....absolutely brilliant.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 16 Sep 2010 16:09

China's science:
http://blogs.cfr.org/asia/2010/09/15/st ... -software/

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Sep 2010 16:35

Reg.MKB's vies,there is no doubt that the Chinese economic miracle inevitably will ahve to be protected by the Chinese.How they do i is another amtter.In a recent "hard talk" interview wth the BBC,a Chinese eco minister,Chung,described the Chinese as "saving today for tomorrow's spending,while Americans spend tomorrow's savings today"! It is quite accurate.
China however acan establsh good realtiosn wih all its Asian neighbours,who fear t just as Japan was feared during the pre-WW2 period,and Japan's paranoia and US pressure upon it led to its pre-emptive strike at Pearl Harbour.

If I had anything o do with Chinese decision making,I would emulate JFK who said of Lyndon Johsnon (who hated JFK) when he chose him as running mate suprising close friends,that "I'd rather have him pissing outside the tent than pissing in".Similarly,it would be better for China to have India "pissing into the IOR than having it pissing over the Himalayas".But that attitude requires maturity from the Middle Kingdom,who have both monumental egos and equally monumental paranoia.Look a the way in which windows were ordered closed in hotels during the Olympics and other asinine security measures.In fact,China's attempt to keep India rstrained within the Himalayas can be turned around so that it is China a "scaredy dragon",but still an unpredictable dragon with a lot of fire in its nostrils that requires to be kept imprisoned between the Pacific and the Himalayas.That should be India's task,so that there is no "Breakout" of China from over the Himalayas and into the IOR that cannot be met and swiftly dealt with.This requires a massive expansion and modernsation of the Indiana rmed forces and a very agressive Indian diplomacy that engages every country on the globe especially China's rivals/enemies.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Sep 2010 20:59

RajeshA wrote:ARMING WITHOUT AIMING: INDIA’S MILITARY MODERNIZATION: Book Launch Event on September 9, 2010 @Brookings Institute
Ashley Tellis @Transcript Page 17 wrote:Indian defense policy is in crisis. It’s in crisis for at least two reasons. One, the external environment that India had planned its military forces for since independence is steadily changing before the eyes of Indian policymakers.

The kind of threats India is going to face from Pakistan, which are threats that emerge increasingly from weakness, are not the kind of threats that the Indian military is the best instrument to cope with. And the kinds of capabilities that India is going to face on the Chinese front, which traditionally were premised on the assumption of persistent Chinese weakness, are actually being transformed as we speak into fundamental Chinese strengths, emerging Chinese strengths. And it is still not clear at this point whether India’s military capacities will enable it to hold its own vis-à-vis a modern Chinese military, particularly if China’s political and strategic intentions towards India were to change.

This has been known from 1964. What is new thing about this. From 1964 China has grown its economy and is going to be threat to India. The race has started from that time.

ManjaM · Post by **ManjaM** » 16 Sep 2010 21:15

I was speaking with a Vietnamese person at work and he kept saying - "Why doesnt India step up and start assuming leadership in the region. We would love to see it."
Vietnamese have some serious reservations about increasing Chinese influence in the area. This particular guy seemed to suggest that most Vietnamese would be much happier in an Indian embrace than a Sino hug. He was all praise for many indian business men who do business with Vietnam and whom he said speak better vietnamese than than the locals could. Seriously, we are under estimating overselves and overestimating our chipaki neighbours.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 16 Sep 2010 21:25

An Indian tongue can speak any language.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 16 Sep 2010 22:36

indian hugs come with bosoms of bollywood beauties, chini hugs come with kung fu kicks
thats why onlee

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 16 Sep 2010 23:42

Individual disagreements will not affect engagement: China

Exchanges between India and China will remain unaffected by disagreements over individual issues, the Chinese Foreign Ministry said on Thursday, during a week in which two high-profile Indian delegations are visiting Beijing amid renewed strains in the relationship.

The visits come after ties strained following China's decision to refuse a visa for Lieutenant General B.S. Jaswal, chief of the Army's Northern Command, following which defence exchanges had been temporarily suspended.

A Chinese official downplayed the disagreement over the visa refusal, describing it as a “misunderstanding or miscommunication.” The official stressed that exchanges in other fields would continue, taking the relationship forward.

How easily dragon lies. unscrupulous neighbour.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 16 Sep 2010 23:48

Lalmohan wrote:indian hugs come with bosoms of bollywood beauties, chini hugs come with kung fu kicks
thats why onlee

A singapore Taxi driver in my taxi told me he loves Bollywood girls and they are the best. His entire conversation was on Bollywood girls and India.

A vietnam friend and groups want to do business with India and wants changes
They see that the Indian leadership elite behaves like the west instead rooting for India and the south east asia. They are watching and checking the changes in the balance of power in the region and Asia.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Sep 2010 04:54

When drugs are faked
Remember the Chinese fake drugs that were sent in the name of an Indian company ? Here are more details on the modus operandi and the repercussions.
Excerpts

Over two months ago, the Nigerian Health Regulatory Authority had seized medicines bearing the “Made in India” label, but originating from China. And with no trace to Indian shores, the seizure had repercussions at different levels, particularly for VS International, whose flagship brand, Ciprotab, was one of the medicines faked. For the Mumbai-based exporter, it meant investing in new printing inks and packaging technologies to keep its medicines a step ahead of counterfeiters.

A year ago, the Indian authorities had taken up the issue with their counterparts in China and no major incident was reported to the Government or Pharmexcil, the Pharmaceutical Export Promotion Council, till this June.

So now, Indian drug-makers don't just have to protect their brands; they must be able to afford the new, sophisticated anti-counterfeiting technologies.

Be it specialised printing inks, holographic strips, micro-embossing or RFID (Radio Frequency Identification) tags — they all come at a price, pushing up the end-cost, especially for small exporters.

Naturally then, the industry and government have expressed concern over the large consignment of Chinese-origin “Made in India” counterfeits seized late June at the Murtala Mohammed International Airport, Lagos, and the Nnamdi Azikwe International Airport, Abuja.

The consignment comprised the antibiotic, Ciprotab, anti-malarial Lariam and psychotropic drug, Lexotam. And the worrisome part, in the Nigerian Health Authority's own words, was that the fakes had little or no active ingredients.

Modus operandi

Ciprotab, in this case, was ferried by Lufthansa Airlines from China via Frankfurt into the Abuja airport, in 12 large packages concealed amidst some other items, the Nigerian health regulator said. And the importer was arrested on arrival at the airport.

The other two fake medicines came into the Lagos airport aboard Emirates Airlines, also from China, as unaccompanied cargo in four large packages, the authorities said.

Nigeria is a sizeable market for Indian companies, contributing about 60 per cent of that country's imports.

All the more reason to worry about the health impact these fakes, dressed in Indian garb, would have on the Nigerians.

How these smuggled medicines missed scans at several levels and at different ports, before it reached the Nigerian shores, is a mystery. The identity of those who identify popular brands for faking is unknown as yet.

Besides more intensive scanning and checks on consignments, officials involved with quality inspections suggest that importers need to be questioned when their consignments bear the name of one port, but come from another location — as was the case with the Chinese-origin “Made-in-India'' fakes .

Among the several suggestions being discussed, one is to have a unique number that can be messaged over the telephone to a certain number, to check if the medicine is fake or not.

Unique bar codes and two-dimensional coding are some other initiatives being discussed, though with cost implications.

Industry representatives even cite the Malaysian system of providing exclusive logos for goods being imported into Malaysia.

In fact, all of the above measures will have to be included, when India designs her cloak to protect the local industry from such fake attacks.

It was a well planned attack to sully the Indian brand image, increase the cost of Indian products and capture the market.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Sep 2010 06:16

China to build another port in Sri Lanka

All these countries owe India forever. Without India-scare these babies wouldn't have got all these freebies. CPC is going get shock of its life one fine day

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 17 Sep 2010 09:56

Stratfor on China's Upcoming Leadership Transition:

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Sep 2010 10:09

China and religion
http://www.csua.berkeley.edu/~mrl/HuShi ... inese.html

Then, about the first century B.C., there came the great cultural invasion from India, the introduction of Buddhism. No one really knows how this came about. By 65 A.D. it had already been embraced by a prince of the imperial family; by 165 it was accepted by an emperor who worshiped Buddha together with Laotze. By 200 it was defended by one of the Chinese intellectuals in Southern China. By 300 it was talked about by all educated Chinese and was becoming the most popular religion of the people. China had never seen so elaborate and spectacular a religion. The very simple faith of Siniticism was overwhelmed, and it was speedily conquered. The Chinese people were dazzled, baffled, and carried away by this marvelous religion of rich imagery, beautiful and captivating ""ritualism, and wonderfully ingenious metaphysics. There was not only a heaven, but thousands of heavens; not only a hell, but 18 hells of ever increasing severity and horror. The religious imagination of the Indian people seemed so inexhaustible and always of such marvelous architectonic structure. China readily acknowledged her crushing defeat.

China was so completely Buddhist that everything that came from the Buddhist country of India was readily accepted and became a fashion. Even the worst features of Mahayana Buddhism were blindly taken up by Chinese believers. The practice of burning one's body as a sacrifice was frequently encouraged by the extreme fanatics; the lives of monks who burned themselves to death were recorded in the Buddhist biographies in a special section as exemplary achievements of supreme devotion and piety. Under the T'ang dynasty, some strange monk from India would bring a piece of human bone and call it a sacred relic of the Buddha; and he would be so devoutly believed that the imperial court and the whole population would suspend all business and march in solemn processions to greet the Buddha relic. Truly had humanist China lost her head and gone completely mad under the powerful enchantment of this imported religion from India!

Hu Shih in 1930 declared that the backwardness of China is due to Hinduism and Buddism and paved the way for revolution
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/autho ... _shih.html

And lastly, the political revolutions from 1911 to the present time have done more to bring about tremendous social changes everywhere than even the economic and industrial changes and the new schools.
Hu Shih

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Sep 2010 10:16

^^^^ Reads like commie propaganda when he claims Humanist China. And he calls monks from India with Buddha's relics as frauds. Most likely a Western educated Commie.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Sep 2010 10:22

It's pathetic to see the attitude of the GOI/MEA in Lanka,where despite every advantage that India has,proximity,ethnic origins of all Lankans,he two major religions being Indian,excellent personal contcts,etc.,we are allowing the Chinese to just "buy" up an island so strategic to India!

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 17 Sep 2010 10:56

Tantric worship was widespread in China, just like it was in kerala and bengal. And in all three, commies who in my opinion are the greatest charlatans and quacks used the "non-victorian aspects of tantric worship i.e. Vamacharya" to denounce Hinduism and Buddhism as a whole.

But as the law of Karma goes Chicom is destined to adopt the ways of vajrayana given that they have persevered more than any EJ to trample it in Tibet.

As a further OT aside,

Buddhism is an ism at the end of the day. And although it is a nastika tradition i.e it rejects the authority of the vedas its early form is very much Advaitvad - absolute monism. But later when they understood that Jnana yoga is not appropriate for most people they turned towards Tantra and this culminated in Tibetan buddhism i.e Vajrayana which in my opinion is one of the greatest philosophical traditions of the world along with Abhinavgupta's Trika Shaivism and Shankaracharya's Advait Vedanta .

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 17 Sep 2010 12:13

Let facts speak for themselves

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Sep 2010 12:36

acharya-ji, i don't mean to be presumptuous, but singaporean chinese are very different to the mainland chinese, and are very exposed to indian culture

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 17 Sep 2010 12:55

India-China Power Game in Nepal

Klaus · Post by **Klaus** » 17 Sep 2010 13:28

SSridhar wrote:It was a well planned attack to sully the Indian brand image, increase the cost of Indian products and capture the market.

Any existing loopholes in the Indian pharma industry can be sealed shut because of this. With increase in cost, there will be more innovations and better quality of genuine Indian products over Chinese cr@p. Capturing the market is a Chinese wet dream when quality is on India's side.

Purush · Post by **Purush** » 17 Sep 2010 15:52

Lalmohan wrote:acharya-ji, i don't mean to be presumptuous, but singaporean chinese are very different to the mainland chinese, and are very exposed to indian culture

The aam Singaporean chinese seems to utterly hate the mainland Chinese these days due to the huge influx of PRC workers into SG. There is a general backlash against furriners in SG now..we are accused of stealing everything from their jobs and houses to their wimmens; even the govt has had to step in with special measures to ensure that citizens receive more benefits than furriners in education, housing etc.

The most hated group are the PRC immigrants who are called derogatory names and dehumanized/ridiculed in private conversations and (increasingly) even on public internet forums as crude, unsophisticated, barbaric, stupid, criminal-minded, dishonest, etc etc (mind you, these are not my views, I am merely echoing what I see/hear).

While the SG govt seems to welcome tie ups with the PRC in the economic sphere, the locals have nothing but contempt/hatred for them.

So, the SG chinese and PRC chinese have almost nothing in common these days; and yes, the former group are relatively more familiar with Indian customs due to the local SG Indian population (~7% of total IIRC) but do not particularly like indian immigrants either...at best they are neutral.

EDIT: The Vietnamese people I've met here are among the smartest and most hardworking people I've seen. In the long term once their economic problems are fixed and standard of living is raised, I predict that VN and not Indon/Thai/SG/MY will become the ASEAN regional power. After all, they defeated 3 'superpowers' in the span of 30 years and never gave up fighting for their homeland even under much worse conditions. They are survivors, and good ones at that. It will do immense good for India to have VN as a solid, reliable ally in ASEAN.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2010 21:42

Sino-Japanese hacking war?
http://blogs.cfr.org/asia/2010/09/17/co ... cking-war/

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 17 Sep 2010 21:49

China’s Mounting Public Discontent

As the Chinese economy continues to grow, the Chinese themselves are becoming more assertive. Discontent is carefully becoming evident while the gap between China’s coastal success and rural lack of development widens. Do the urban nouveaux riches threaten to upset the now precarious balance between rich and poor?

Chinese billionaire and real estate developer Zhang Xin displayed rather more insight on Fareed Zakaria’s GPS on September 5. She pointed out that the “American glory is fading a bit.” The financial meltdown and ongoing recession troubling the United States has many Chinese disillusioned about the success of the American model and shattered their hopes of imitating it.

According to Pieter Bottelier of the New Atlanticist, the crisis confirmed, for the Chinese, that the state must maintain a firm grip of markets; that it “must maintain a strong, direct role in key industries; and must reduce China’s dependence on external demand and promote domestic consumption.” The government is planning therefore to optimize energy independence and efficiency; encourage the growth of high tech industries and provide for “affordable housing” in what is a rapidly urbanizing society.

Yet, according to Xin, this inequality is not primarily responsible for mounting public discontent in China, rather it is fueled by a lack of ideological and political freedoms. “All we’re allowed to do,” she said, “is make money.” Eventually, that’s not enough. But it’s only as the Chinese become richer, educated and more worldly that they’ll start demanding the power to take matters into their own hands.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2010 22:14

Billionaires do well regardless of the political system. It is the middle class that suffers without political freedoms. So while Zhang Xin may be correct, she is hardly representative of what's needed.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Sep 2010 02:47

China eyes rail link to Chittagong

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 574337.cms

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 18 Sep 2010 03:26

Purush wrote: EDIT: The Vietnamese people I've met here are among the smartest and most hardworking people I've seen. In the long term once their economic problems are fixed and standard of living is raised, I predict that VN and not Indon/Thai/SG/MY will become the ASEAN regional power. After all, they defeated 3 'superpowers' in the span of 30 years and never gave up fighting for their homeland even under much worse conditions. They are survivors, and good ones at that. It will do immense good for India to have VN as a solid, reliable ally in ASEAN.

Spot on.

Vietnamese have that wierd boldness and courage about them in daily work that only geniunce warriors carry. This usually translates to economic success pretty easily. This is a country to watch out for.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 18 Sep 2010 07:46

This Week at War: Japan Gets Tough

Did this week's confrontation at sea with China signal a more aggressive stance from Tokyo?

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... _get_tough

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 18 Sep 2010 08:05

Vietnamese have that wierd boldness and courage about them in daily work that only geniunce warriors carry. This usually translates to economic success pretty easily. This is a country to watch out for.

Yup. Also shpws itself in the fact that the ozzie racists (aka white packees) assaulting Indians in Oz carefully refrain from visiting or targeting Vietnamese areas or people there. There are consequences to such stupidity, and apparently, word has long gone out.