Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 15 Sep 2010 21:02

12 phalcons will be consumed by the western front itself going by your reasonable equation. think 1000km from kutch to leh.

that still leave ladakh, uttaranchal, HP, nepal, sikkim, arunachanl, assam, nagaland and manipur to cover - a vast 2000+ km sector.

the AEW cannot just be "gap fillers" - they will need to be capable as the phalcon albeit at a lesser range, less control consoles and lesser loiter time. AAR is a must - something which Embraer will have to build in.

and the need to keep AWACS and JSTARs type birds up in the air for extended periods automatically mean we need large sized tankers in some quantity - A330 sized and perhaps 15-20 of them. these can also top up strike a/c flying from deep within
india and help a/c low on fuel on the routes back.

we need layered ground based radars sited on mountain tops to catch both a/c and cruise missiles.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 16 Sep 2010 10:34

I was thinking like an SDRE and assuming sectors without mountains won't need AWACS cover all the time, ground based long range radars placed sufficiently deep should be enough.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 16 Sep 2010 11:07

now that AFNet is active, they should focus on creating a country wide multi static network by synchronizing the T/R modules of ground based radars, AEW systems, airship mounted radars, ship based radars and fighter radars so as to be able to detect stealthy planes and cruise missiles within Indian airspace

This network is helped by the fact that DRDO is the source for lots of these radars

Also, the release of formerly mil radio spectrum to civilian telecom should bring the latter's cell towers using this spectrum into the same multi static network as a redundancy measure, even short range communication band emitters should also be helpful

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 16 Sep 2010 15:12

Willy wrote:Wasn't there news floating around that the next batch of Phalcons would be based on a platform other than the IL-76?

I think it was due to non-availability of ready airframe of these birds. The question though still remains unanswered. If not IL76, what else

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Sep 2010 16:20

^^^, A330 or the 320. Most likely IMO.

But then this will add an airframe type to the IAF that will have to be supported. Not sure whut kind of logistical weight it will present to for the IAF though.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Sep 2010 19:38

embraer has a b737-200 sized plane. maybe best option of il76 is unavailable or undesired.
its called EMB195 - 122 seats

vic · Post by **vic** » 16 Sep 2010 22:16

Singha wrote:embraer has a b737-200 sized plane. maybe best option of il76 is unavailable or undesired.
its called EMB195 - 122 seats

I think next version of Indian AEW should be built on a heavier aircraft preferably the EMB-195 to give it more range, station time and payload capacity

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 Sep 2010 22:39

well they could have chosen it in 1st round itself to reduce cost and timelines. still, if there is going to be 20, tranche2 is possible after the first half dozen.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 17 Sep 2010 15:47

What advantages would EMB195 offer over say A320?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Sep 2010 15:57

there has never been a airbus structural conversion into awacs. all the NATO awacs are 707 based. japan uses 767. wedgetail uses 737
airbus even failed to get funding for the A320 LRMP version. so about their only military product is the A400M, in contrast to boeing which is
decades in defence itself and via mcdonell douglass.

embraer has already integrated the ereyie radar for brazil into their airframe and now indic radar into emb145. they would have the data
bank what is to be done and the right set of people to do this. Bereiv consultants can be pulled in if we want a phalcon style round dish.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Sep 2010 16:23

singhaji
underlying your summary of airbus is the boeing/US Gov pressure on NATO nations to buy american and all the arm twisting that comes with it
just see the fun we are having with the USAF new tanker tender

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 17 Sep 2010 17:36

The USAF tanker tender is less about US Gov ie Exec branch than the Congressmen who need the pork to be spread around.

At the same time its hard to be sympathetic to the Europeans who do the same.

They deserve each other

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Sep 2010 13:34

we have forgotten the logical choice for next gen indic AEW - the MTA

with 15-20 t payload, newer engines and extra fuel tanks it should be able to loft the next model of phalcon array
and already has AAR per the model pic.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Sep 2010 14:49

Singha Ji,

Please keep our khayli pulaos in the handi till the time the MTA flies. When it does take to the AIR then its Jihaaaaaaaaaad for the various roles it can play in the our defence setup.

Until then lets keep our horses on hold.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Sep 2010 12:47

Singha wrote:there has never been a airbus structural conversion into awacs. all the NATO awacs are 707 based. japan uses 767. wedgetail uses 737 airbus even failed to get funding for the A320 LRMP version. so about their only military product is the A400M, in contrast to boeing which is decades in defence itself and via mcdonell douglass.

Israel did prefer Indian Phalcon to be mounted on an Airbus. Indian choice was the Russian AC, which is why Israel had to jump through hoops.

embraer has already integrated the ereyie radar for brazil into their airframe and now indic radar into emb145. they would have the data bank what is to be done and the right set of people to do this. Bereiv consultants can be pulled in if we want a phalcon style round dish.

I would assume that shrinking electronics and changing requirements would allow smaller ACs to host a variety of equipment. The newer Israeli "Phalcon" (Eitam) is an example.

Round dishs are passe. Eitam!

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 24 Sep 2010 13:01

Singha wrote:we have forgotten the logical choice for next gen indic AEW - the MTA

AFAIR, there were talks of converting Saras / RTA into an AEWC carrier as well. Don't have the links though.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 26 Sep 2010 14:48

Cross posting from Indian Military Aviation thread..

PTI confirms...

Two Additional Phalcon AWACS for Indian Air Force: Press Trust of India

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 26 Sep 2010 15:18

2 more Phalcons for IAF !

That brings the total to 5 ! So how many Indian AWACS will the IAF order ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Sep 2010 15:26

I am feeling confident the IN will buy some E2 or EMB145 for its own exclusive use.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 26 Sep 2010 15:30

smpratik wrote:That brings the total to 5 ! So how many Indian AWACS will the IAF order ?

So far, it looks like 5 Phalcons + 10 Embraer based AWACS for the IAF.

As Singha noted, the IN should have its requirements as well.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 26 Sep 2010 15:39

I don't think IN would prefer to buy a completely shore based AWACS when it has a choice of carrier based E-2D.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Sep 2010 17:02

A shore baseed AEW ties the Navy to the patron radius of the AEW. IMO the navy will be better served by having a carrier based AEW.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 26 Sep 2010 17:45

What offshore platforms and what capabilities in next 8-10years will be in disposal of IN to operate a E2D?
Plz get real.

sum · Post by **sum** » 26 Sep 2010 20:41

Wasnt there a article recently posted on BR which quoted a unnamed IN officer as saying that the IAC-1 and IAC-2 would be conventional and IAC-3 would be Nuke. The same person mentioned that the IAC-2/3 ( i think only IAC3 and not 2) onwards would have E-2 AWACs also . Was surprised reading the actual aircraft being mentioned instead on generic AWACs term.

Trying to locate that article...

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 26 Sep 2010 22:50

smpratik wrote:2 more Phalcons for IAF !

That brings the total to 5 ! So how many Indian AWACS will the IAF order ?

IAF planning to induct 10 Airborne Warning and Control Systems

NEW DELHI: Having already procured three Airborne Warning and Control Systems (AWACS), the Indian Air Force is planning to induct ten such eyes for boosting the country's air defence.

In the near future, the IAF will place fresh orders for two more PHALCON AWACS in addition to the three procured earlier.

But in the long run, it has plans of inducting a total of ten such aircraft in its fleet, Defence Ministry officials told PTI here.

With ten aircraft, the IAF hopes to provide round the clock vigil across all the frontiers, the sources said.

India inducted its first AWACS system in Delhi this year and the second was inducted into the fleet in June.

Officials said the third aircraft is expected to join the fleet by the end of this year in December. The AWACS deal was initiated in 2004 between India, Israel and Russia.

The project involved the Israeli Phalcon early-warning radar and communication suites which had to be mounted on the Russian IL-76 heavy-lift military aircraft. The deal was to the tune of USD 1.1 billion.

AWACS has complimented the IAFs capability in terms of detection and the tracking of troop build-ups or aircraft movements in border areas and enemy territories.

Besides detection of incoming cruise missiles and aircraft in a 400 kilometre range in all-weather conditions, AWACS is useful to direct air defence fighters during combat operations against enemy planes.

It will provide a much enhanced situational awareness and the capability to truly project aerospace power.

India is also working on a Rs 1,800 programme to develop its indigenous Airborne Early Warning and Control system, which will be put on the three Embraer-145 jets being acquired for $210 million from Brazil.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... z10eu9HahT

Thomas Kolarek · Post by **Thomas Kolarek** » 27 Sep 2010 01:06

IN has Kamov Ka-31 operating from its aircraft carrier.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 27 Sep 2010 19:24

10 Phalcons + 15 Desi AWACS should be the IAF's strength by 2025. Will allow great coverage and added capability in multi-front war/ multiple battlefields.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 28 Sep 2010 14:23

I vaguely remember reading somewhere that IAF wanted around 25 desi one's.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2010 17:09

There is a new Merlin EH-101 AEW derivative,with an ingenious AEW radar that folds into the cabin from the place where a rear ramp would be located as in medium sized helos.The radar is an improvement on those used by RN Sea Kings aboard its carriers which are carried on the side of the fuselage,a measure urgently developed during the Falklands War.These would be of greater range and endurance than our KA-31s which are also good machines,which can be used on smaller warships of DDG and FFG size.

INnncdentally,AWST has a report on the huge demand for old MI-8s,especially those with upgraded engines.The helos available for $3.5million,are now going for $10m approx! Their value in "hot and high" connditions as in Afghjanistan,are proving to be indispensale and augurs well for Russian exports.No wonder India is ordering dozens of more powerful engined MI-17Vs for Himalayan support ops.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 29 Sep 2010 11:26

The Helicopter based AEW would be sufficient for the fleet defense. But when it comes to offensive operation's we need AEW aircraft with more range and speed to keep up with the fighters. This has been the main drawback of Kamov and in future the Merlin EH-101 based AEW.
The other Option is to Have a V-22 Based AEW, which negates this drawbacks up to an extend for navies who's carriers are not big enough to have a AEW aircraft.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Oct 2010 06:52

New Indian Airborne Early Warning Aircraft Nears Trials

Aviation Week

New Indian Airborne Early Warning Aircraft Nears Trials
Oct 7, 2010
By Asia-Pacific Staff
NEW DELHI

India’s domestically developed airborne early warning and control system is taking a big step forward with the first of three modified Brazilian EMB-145s headed for flight trials.

The preliminary testing, due to kick off in the next two months, will be carried out in Brazil by Embraer and a team from the Indian air force’s Aircraft & Systems Testing Establishment (ASTE) in association with Brazil’s Agência Nacional de Aviação Civil and its Indian counterpart, the Center for Military Airthworthiness and Certification (Cemilac).

Defense Research and Development Organization sources reveal that the first platform will be equipped with a dorsal radar unit containing dummy electronics, An In-Flight Refueling Probe, environmental controls, auxiliary power units, internal fuel tanks, satellite communications and antennae.

India’s Bangalore-based Center for Airborne Systems (CABS) — the laboratory spearheading the AEW&C sensor program — already has supplied Embraer with a dorsal unit (with dummy electronics) and a Ku-band SATCOM dome, while the Defense Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), CABS and the Defense Electronics Research Laboratory (DLRL) have shipped in antenna units for electronic support measures, communications support measures (CSM) and U/VHF. The aircraft will undergo flight tests until July 2011.

While the EMB-145 in the AEW&C configuration undergoes flight tests in Brazil, the configuration to be ferried to India in August 2011 will include only the aircraft with the dorsal pylon but not the antenna unit or other features, such as the extra auxiliary power unit or internal fuel tanks. Once the first aircraft reaches India, it will undergo a flight testing regime with CABS, ASTE and Cemilac in Association with An Embedded Embraer Team.

After a series of checkout flights in India, the aircraft will be integrated with a dorsal unit containing real electronics and other mission system equipment, including five operator workstations, avionics racks, crew rest seating, seats and cabling. Program sources indicate that the aircraft will be tested in three different locations in the country, Yelahanka in the South, Bareilly in the North and either Bagdogra or Tezpur in the East.

On June 23, EADS Cassidian (the former Defense & Security unit) announced that it has been awarded a contract to supply consultancy services to CABS for developing the AEW&C’s system architecture with particular regard to certification and mission equipment optimization, giving the European company its third big aerospace consultancy in India, following advisory contracts in the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft program.

The first Indian AEW&C aircraft is slated to achieve full operational capability in 2014, with inductions of three aircraft the same year.

While Numbers Remain UnOfficial, the Indian Air Force has Hinted at a Need for at Least Eight of the Indigenous AEW&C Aircraft.

The Air Force also Recently decided to Exercise Options with Israel for Two More Phalcon AWACS, though the Platform is Likely to be a Business Jet Rather than the Ilyushin-76, a Platform that Remains Plagued by Maintainability, Availability and Spares Problems at its Home Base in Agra.

The Air Force will Achieve Final Operational Capability on the Phalcon in November of this Year, with the Third Aircraft to Arrive Shortly Thereafter.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 09 Oct 2010 08:19

5 + potential 8 = 13, nice number. Will it be sufficient for meeting the IAF needs in future?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 09 Oct 2010 08:26

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 09 Oct 2010 09:37

8 is just initial order... IAF itself has said that the requirement were for “20 more Emb”.. so that will be 23..
Even the nos of phalcons will go up in future with available upgraded systems and feedbacks from IAF's experience of operation..

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 02 Nov 2010 04:00

Indigenous AWACS to be flight-tested by 2011

HYDERABAD: Even as the Indian Air Force (IAF) is likely to acquire the third Phalcon Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) from Israel by December, India is in the process of developing nine home-grown, state-of-the-art versions and the first of them is expected to be flight-tested by the end of next year.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Nov 2010 04:15

I thought one uses AEW&C for offensive roles? eg: managing air superiority missions over paki or panda airspace after a day or two of SEAD missions and Brahmos love. Basically ensuring nothing leaves an enemy airstrip without the AEW&C' permission. For the rest, wont the ground radars do its job? Even for mountains, why should a highly valuable AWACS replace say an aerostat?

My point is, why should the thinking be of using AEW&C as a flying radar picket line for homeland defense role, when we have cheaper options?

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 02 Nov 2010 07:30

DRDO AWACS First Batch Delivery by 2015; Embraer EMB 145 May Not be Base Platform for Second Batch

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Nov 2010 11:06

The above link is haram in my office. Could some one please post the gist of it for this starved jingo.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 02 Nov 2010 11:08

@Pratyush, get your IT folks to fix it!

DRDO AWACS First Batch Delivery by 2015; Embraer EMB 145 May Not be Base Platform for Second Batch

2010-11-01 Dr. Prahlada, Chief Controller of Research and Development, DRDO has confirmed, according to newspaper reports, that DRDO developed AWACS integrated on Brazilian Embraer EMB 145 aircrafts will be tested by the end of 2011 and a probable delivery date for the first batch of three is 2015.

Notes from his statements:

India is in the process of developing nine home-grown, state-of-the-art versions and the first of them is expected to be flight-tested by the end of next year.

Five frontline laboratories of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) are working to develop the system which would be "85 per cent indigenous"

Three will be integrated on board the Brazilian Embraer EMB 145 jet and delivered by 2014-15

The base aircraft for the remaining six AWACS is undecided

Related reports on India Defence:
March 2008 DRDO Targeting 2011 For AWACS Project Completion
September 2010 AWACS Developed by DRDO to Roll Out in January 2011; Flight Tests in 2011

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Nov 2010 11:15

Ah....

Much relieved.

But

I want 20 in the next 5 years