J & K news and discussion

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 17 Sep 2010 09:57

Stratfor propaganda on "indigenous uprising":

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Sep 2010 10:02

merlin wrote:Here's one of the BRF's "favourite" so-called thinkers sucking upto baba

KASHMIR: AN OPEN LETTER TO RAHUL GANDHI

From the letter:

All of us---whether politicians or professional bureaucrats--- who made our names in dealing ruthlessly with terrorism and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, have intellectual and professional deficiencies in understanding the current situation. It is time for the youth of the country to take the lead in thinking of meaningful gestures and non-provocative actions on the ground that could help in containing the anger in J&K ...

Amazing how adults can put on such displays of servility ...

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Sep 2010 10:05

He has assessed the new regime coming in!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Sep 2010 10:05

Sanjay M wrote:Stratfor propaganda on "indigenous uprising":

Mass unrest is a not a pressure for India.
That is a small area and a small population. So it can never be a threat to India.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 17 Sep 2010 10:21

ramana wrote:He has assessed the new regime coming in!

Precisely. Previously he had described the entire BRF as a Hindutva forum

that's when he was sucking upto rajmata.

AbhishekD · Post by **AbhishekD** » 17 Sep 2010 11:45

To bring BJP in everything wrong is a property of Indian liberals. It is like a pet peeve. Indian liberals have no where to go on the kashmir issue. BJP or the Indian right wing has had no influence in the kashmir policy. Nehru and Indian liberals have crafted all policies vis-a-vis kashmir.

They cannot put blame on BJP on the matter of Kashmir. It is simply dishonest to even refer to BJP here. Indian liberals just cannot stomach the fact that the oppressed minority in India who have been crushed by the bad hindutvadis are actually islamists and fascists.

Indian liberals did not react to the genocide of KP in the valley, they are not reacting to the islamification of the valley and they will not react to the seccession of the valley. They are a lost cause and nobody can expect them to stand-up.

BJP needs to make itself relevant vis-a-vis the kashmir policy. Not only it needs to take a firm stand, it needs to effect a change in policy in kashmir, otherwise these liberals are going to sell the valley over to islamists and still continue to blame the BJP

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 17 Sep 2010 12:22

B. Raman then Kuldip...funny how the blame BJP crowd has suddenly come to life on an issue where the BJP is hardly a protagonist. Inner Pakistaniyat of some individuals now out on display.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Sep 2010 12:27

Beautiful, the more they do this, the more it sets up BJP as the only party which cares about keeping India together, the last time they did this Congress was wiped out. Kudos to WKK more power to them. They are doing BJPs job for BJP.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Sep 2010 12:46

KASHMIR: AN OPEN LETTER TO RAHUL GANDHI

From the letter:

All of us---whether politicians or professional bureaucrats--- who made our names in dealing ruthlessly with terrorism and Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence, have intellectual and professional deficiencies in understanding the current situation. It is time for the youth of the country to take the lead in thinking of meaningful gestures and non-provocative actions on the ground that could help in containing the anger in J&K ...

I actually agree deeply with B. Raman here. The BJP policies are religion centered and a dead end. They are never going to come again to power in India ever and destined to be in the opposition and wither away long term. Problem for them is that he Congress has moved to the right in economic terms and grabbed away from the BJP what could have been their plank.

So essentially the "broad spectrum politics" of the Congress wins. Left of center socially (inclusive, broadminded, secular , socially open giving the greatest possible catchment among all social groups) and right of center than before (as can be reasonably possible given India's state of development) economically delivering growth and prosperity. BJP is really left in a sh*t creek without a paddle.

The only remaining place for BJP to be ultra hawkish on National Security and while in opposition , yes, you can take up such extreme positions.

However the broader point which Raman makes with his honest admission

have intellectual and professional deficiencies in understanding the current situation

is absolutely correct.

There is a qualitative and fundamental difference between 1989 and now. There it was the gun that was doing the talking in Kashmir and so that kind of uncompromising violence and terror and the the response to that had to be via guns from the Indian state.

Now by every account the gun is missing totally and while the expression is anarchic and arsonist, it is undeniable that the current situation's impulse is largely on the more peaceful and legitimate side if those particular Kashmiris who seem to have a problem, are strictly disciplined and don't resort to arson and anarchy and there is no coercion in terms of "bandh" enforcement (but then, lets face it, such kind of discipline and respect for larger rights in Bandhs is alien to the Indian political culture and bandhs anywhere are enforced by coercion and threats of violence).

The larger point I am making here is that the response to the current situation is NOT the same as in 1989. You have to do it differently.

This is where you need a good communicative leader from Delhi with credibility to make it clear. MMS cant do it. Rahul Gandhi can. And that is, if you want to protest peacefully, you can do so perfectly well. It is well within you rights , as long as there is no arson or general anarchy or any coercion in making others participate. Any violence or anarchy during any of those protests will be the sole responsibility of the folks calling for those protests and the onus rests on them. Stop violence and anarchy and the

And more importantly, you need someone to connect with the young people on the streets there. It cant be the doddering oldies like MMS or the fundamentalist loony dinosaur like Geelani on the other side. Only a communicative leader can tell those protesters and the larger Muslim population of Kashmir, yes, it is your democratic right to protest, but not to indulge in arson and violence . Stop that and keep that stopped, the security forces will go away from the streets and street corners and bring normalcy back . After that and we can talk about anything you want in an open ended manner . It is not very different from what the GOI is saying or doing, but you need a fresh new face and voice to say it.

Also that is the only way you can stop the stunts of folks like the Mirwaiz on EID , who called for the march to Lal Chowk but when it goes out of hand disown it and say he is not responsible.

Make it very clear that yes, we hear you when there are protests, you have a right to protest peacefully, we can talk about everything and work towards something that is acceptable to everyone, however, you have no right to violence and anarchy and to coerce , and if there is any , it is the total responsibility of those who call for those protests.

The BJP beyond hackneyed rhetoric of yesterday has nothing to offer and cant seem to think beyond their tired old chavunism and extreme position in their only remaining corner, hawkishness on national security.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Sep 2010 13:31

Juggi G wrote:This is the Medicine that should be administered ***

That is simply crazy and borders on the Saudi/Paki land kind of barbarism that is so abhorrent. The folks you mentioned , you may hate what they stand for and you might intensely dislike them, but that doesn't mean that it degenerates to the level of such crudeness and rude name calling. I would urge you delete your post.

saket · Post by **saket** » 17 Sep 2010 13:42

It is to the credit of the BJP that its stand coincides with the army's stand on the question of AFSPA. BJP has won many points with its public support of the army, while the Khangress dithered. In each TV debate the BJP spokespersons and the army generals spoke in one voice while Khangress slaves were deer in headlights.
I believe it was the BJPs critical opposition which forced a rethink by the slave-in-chief.

Those elements who are directing this violence in Kashmir from underground should be dragged out and given a lesson they dont forget in a hurry.

Manish Jain · Post by **Manish Jain** » 17 Sep 2010 13:54

Well, the favourite young leader has been saying some gems like below, I'm sure he has the intellectual and professional efficiency in dealing with J&K situation -
"Kashmir is not a part time problem, it is a full time problem."
and
"Politics is everywhere. its in your shirt, its in your pants."

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Sep 2010 13:58

that video is part of the problem. its been manufactured as a piece of propaganda to stir up the mob, the J&K police are currently trying to prosecute those who've produced and distributed it

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Sep 2010 14:00

vina wrote: I actually agree deeply with B. Raman here. The BJP policies are religion centered and a dead end. They are never going to come again to power in India ever and destined to be in the opposition and wither away long term.

What we have in India is an unverifiable EVM-ocracy ... so having popular support does not necessarily mean you will win elections.

Anyhow, I am not supporting any particular party - the are bad elements in all parties ... however it is apparent one cannot survive in the Congress without being steeped in the culture of sycophancy and servility towards a particular family.

Problem for them is that he Congress has moved to the right in economic terms and grabbed away from the BJP what could have been their plank.

As far as I can discern the primary economic policy of the Gandhi family seems to be to steal tens of thousands of crores on pretexts like the Commonwealth games, while collaborating with western elites to hobble industrial development.

The only remaining place for BJP to be ultra hawkish on National Security and while in opposition , yes, you can take up such extreme positions.

ultra hawkish positions such as?

There is a qualitative and fundamental difference between 1989 and now. There it was the gun that was doing the talking in Kashmir and so that kind of uncompromising violence and terror and the the response to that had to be via guns from the Indian state.

Now by every account the gun is missing totally ...

The guns are very much there ... you'll find plenty of reports in this thread itself (and its previous incarnations)

and while the expression is anarchic and arsonist, it is undeniable that the current situation's impulse is largely on the more peaceful and legitimate side ....

You should read Praveen Swami's articles on the hardline Islamist character of the ringleaders, and the funds they are surreptitiously getting from abroad.

This is where you need a good communicative leader from Delhi with credibility to make it clear. MMS cant do it. Rahul Gandhi can.

... who was thrown out of Harvard for dumbness, arrested in Boston with a big amount of unaccounted-for money, a pal of David Milliband who periodically comes out with gems like "my family broke up Pakistan".

And more importantly, you need someone to connect with the young people on the streets there. It cant be the doddering oldies like MMS or the fundamentalist loony dinosaur like Geelani on the other side. Only a communicative leader can tell those protesters and the larger Muslim population of Kashmir, yes, it is your democratic right to protest, but not to indulge in arson and violence .

Stop that and keep that stopped, the security forces will go away from the streets and street corners and bring normalcy back . After that and we can talk about anything you want in an open ended manner . It is not very different from what the GOI is saying or doing, but you need a fresh new face and voice to say it.

One is skeptical of cosmetic measures ... to make progress in Kashmir you can't have a police force that condones the activities of Islamist thugs. That is what is going on under Omar with Rahul's support. Somebody more like KPS Gill is needed.

The BJP beyond hackneyed rhetoric of yesterday has nothing to offer and cant seem to think beyond their tired old chavunism and extreme position in their only remaining corner, hawkishness on national security.

sigh ... I'm not a supporter of the BJP ... but if you want to criticize them do come up with specifics, rather than repeating tired labels like "chauvinist", "extreme", "hawkish", "religion centered" etc

AbhishekD · Post by **AbhishekD** » 17 Sep 2010 14:00

Congress and credibility. It is an oxymoron. And ability and Rahul Gandhi is another oxymoron. We will very soon know about the ability of the crown prince of India.

The crown prince has crafted his image due to two reason, he is the only hope of our secular brigade in India. A crumbling, fissiparous party, congress needs the tutelage head that is Gandhi and the liberal secular cannot run to anybody else.

They dont have any guts or leadership within their ranks to actually take hold of the process, they always have to run to the dynasty. Rahul Gandhi is a media creation. Today he is commenting on some of the most sensitive national issues and is given credibility because of two reason.

1. The dynasty
2. The secular brigade

Rahul Gandhi probably wont be that disastrous for the nation as Rajiv Gandhi was, but he will be not much better. Once the MMS goes away, then the leftist loony crown prince will show his lefty proclivity and start taking this country backward with the speed of light. Anyways it is worthless to argue with secular brigade in India. They are mad people.

The loonies in Deganga traumatised hindus but not secular even mentioned it in the media, but a small incident of stone throwing in Bangalore at a church became national news. The Ram Sene people was dragged in the media for weeks for beating some women ,but the ransaking of hindu homes and shops by a "particular community" did not even find mention in our secular lexicon and we are supposed to believe that the crazy lunatic secular brigade is the most enlightnened people in India.

These lunatics have the right to say that BJP is a communal party, when the whole communalism is being directed against hindus in every muslim majority region.

Vinaji your rant will have no effect. The kashmir policy that liberals have followed has completely failed. Today entire India is asking for complete integration of the valley with India and liberals dont know where to run so they start their pet peeve and accuse BJP. Come on stand-up and accept the fact that the nehruvian policy in kashmir has failed and that India needs a course correction. BJP and the nation will stand with the congress party.

Otherwise we all know how Kashmir mobilized public opinion in the past in India and public opinion will be mobilized again.

saket · Post by **saket** » 17 Sep 2010 14:11

Its an abject lesson in history that our army, security forces and even the Kashmiris (pandits and muslims) are continually paying with their lives each day for the historic blunders done 60 years ago by Nehru.
I think the Khangress has a genetic reluctance in setting the Nehruvian blunders right, simply because that would be admitting the failure of Nehrus policies in a much more direct way than, say, liberalization ever did.
Otherwise I find no rationale on why IG did not settle the issue in 1972, or why they keep insisting on article 370.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 17 Sep 2010 14:13

^^^ because in 72 we were tacitly threatened by the US not to interfere in W. Pakistan, and there was insufficient support from the USSR to do so

saket · Post by **saket** » 17 Sep 2010 14:18

Lalmohan wrote:^^^ because in 72 we were tacitly threatened by the US not to interfere in W. Pakistan, and there was insufficient support from the USSR to do so

No no. In the Shimla Agreement itself, IG should have sorted the Kashmir issue out. Granted that the only viable formalization would have been LoC as international border.
Why did IG dither and allow ZAB to get away with verbal assurance?

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2010 14:20

And more importantly, you need someone to connect with the young people on the streets there. It cant be the doddering oldies like MMS or the fundamentalist loony dinosaur like Geelani on the other side. Only a communicative leader can tell those protesters and the larger Muslim population of Kashmir, yes, it is your democratic right to protest, but not to indulge in arson and violence . Stop that and keep that stopped, the security forces will go away from the streets and street corners and bring normalcy back . After that and we can talk about anything you want in an open ended manner . It is not very different from what the GOI is saying or doing, but you need a fresh new face and voice to say it.

Vina-saar,
After reading from all the people on the ground ( Praveen Swami, K Nayar etc all mentioning the Islamism inherent) and seeing the antics of the "youth" ( forcing Sikhs to recite Qalima, stomping on Indian flags, shouting "indian dogs go back", burning every possible govt related thing etc) and wanting only "Azadi" with all muslim regions of Ladakh and Jammu added , you still feel that a new face going and "talking" ( to whom, Geelani??) will solve the issue and the "youth" will start doing something productive for the nation?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Sep 2010 14:39

vina wrote:
Juggi G wrote:This is the Medicine that should be administered ***
That is simply crazy and borders on the Saudi/Paki land kind of barbarism that is so abhorrent.

vina ji,
You consider Saudi/Paki land kind of barbarism abhorrent. Would you please tell us the difference between those whom you feel are so abhorrent and the Kashmir Valley Wahhabis (KVW).

vina wrote:The folks you mentioned , you may hate what they stand for and you might intensely dislike them, but that doesn't mean that it degenerates to the level of such crudeness and rude name calling.

I don't think there is a particular preference amongst Indians to use heavy-handed methods against the KVWs, which of course, as you mention, would be a sign of intense dislike, crudeness, name-calling, degeneration, wagerah, wagerah.

What Indians want is a solution, in which J&K is quiet and peaceful and the state is dealt with just like any other state, and the Kashmiri Muslims can pursue any path they choose within that framework, which allows many freedoms, but not a blank cheque.

Any method that leads to such a solution is welcome. We all have given the Indian Leadership with its current ideology and modus operandi sufficient time - 62 years to find a solution. These included coddling, various sops, much money, democratic elections, etc. They do not seem to have worked.

It is all about 'what works'! Ideology is a secondary.

You are welcome to say what solutions you have in mind and why they are better, but putting down somebody because of political correctness is useless, unless you prove that political correctness provides a solution.

AbhishekD · Post by **AbhishekD** » 17 Sep 2010 14:40

^^^^. Talking to vinaji will have no effect. The only evil that the Indian liberals sees, hears or understands is the BJP. There are no islamic fundamentalists in India. They have not done anything to anybody. It is only BJP and hindutvawadis.

vina · Post by **vina** » 17 Sep 2010 14:45

sum wrote:Vina-saar,
After reading from all the people on the ground ( Praveen Swami, K Nayar etc all mentioning the Islamism inherent) and seeing the antics of the "youth" ( forcing Sikhs to recite Qalima, stomping on Indian flags, shouting "indian dogs go back", burning every possible govt related thing etc) and wanting only "Azadi" with all muslim regions of Ladakh and Jammu added , you still feel that a new face going and "talking" ( to whom, Geelani??) will solve the issue and the "youth" will start doing something productive for the nation?

Absolutely. See, all that you are talking about including the use of Islamism and the unverified and obviously fake looking Youtube video posted by Juggi (which would have created a total storm like Abu Ghraib if it was even remotely true ) and all this is war by other means, just like war is diplomacy by other means and just like politics is war by other means . Go behind the reason why they are doing what they are doing. Mirwaiz let the cat out of the bag on TV. What they want is a sustained Kashmir focused India and Pakistan dialog. So it is really not the Mirwaiz or Hurriyat or Geelani doing it, but rather a calibrated exercise from across the border using those worthies as proxy.

Rahul Gandhi or anyone will not stop the "Youth" , but will set the context and ground rules that everyone can know. You want dialog, it wont happen unless violence stops. You want to negotiate, sure, only in an environment where there is normal politics and err. arson is NOT normal politics. You want a place in the high table, okay, behave responsibly.

If that message sinks in, now YOU have have an answer. The responsibility is not yours now, but the separatists. I think this broad change from guns to rocks has happened because the Paki handlers now clearly recognize that that there is no sympathy anywhere for terrorism internationally, and use of terror is a lost cause and hence a change of strategy, hoping for a Palestine like "intifada" in Kashmir with the similar use of stones and arson , and hoping to put it back on TV and international news.

This is Pakistan's way of trying to wiggle out of the pin India put it in. No progress on Mumbai, no talks. Now with stoking the fire in Kashmir, Pakistan is hoping for a nod from Delhi on a dialog that will include Pakistan without any result on Mumbai or a wishy washy parallel progress thing. Pakis desperately looking for a trade over anything.

All I am saying is that since this is different, you need to respond differently.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 17 Sep 2010 15:01

The Jammu and Kashmir situation: The Azadi Debate (Part I)

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2010 15:53

Juggi G wrote:This is the Medicine that should be administered to Geelani, Mirwaiz & APHC, the Leadership i.e.

Kashmiri Police Forces Kashmiri Youth to Walk Naked

My My what brutality?

In this day and age? nakedness? tsk tsk.

Even babies are born with diapers nowadays. This is a groos violation of human rights. Imagine. Naked.

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 17 Sep 2010 16:15

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/its-not-easy ... ml?from=tn

This is why Abdullah Snr needs to be CM of J&K and not his son. This interview is worth watching in full.

rajum · Post by **rajum** » 17 Sep 2010 16:20

Since Jammu and Ladakh want to be a part of India irrespective of the violence orchestrated in the name of Azadi , we should declare both as a Union Territory and focus primarily on KASHMIR . Confidence building measures should be aimed at the AAM JUNTA in Kashmir who is tired of the violence going on for the past 3 months . this was seen on a couple of days when a number of shopowners turned on seperatists who forcibly wanted to shut down shops . The All party delegation need to meet up with common junta and bypass Geelani . Rahul Gandhi can be in this delegation to provide his charm on the people ( AAM JUNTA ) and lend his human touch . ARMY should be allowed to use its charm on the seperatists .............

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 17 Sep 2010 17:35

I don't know if this website is forbidden here, if it is, moderator, I will delete.
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/09/kashm ... -name.html

What is interesting is how the whole story is framed.

munna · Post by **munna** » 17 Sep 2010 17:45

Hmm.. since the deal has been sabotaged and "back channel" or "azadi by pieces" strategy has received a big kick in the Musharraf so all start blaming the BJP. Nice pattern here, all the analysts who were at the throats of nation hollering "peace at all costs", "solution is a must" and "talks must go on" are looking like damp crows after a sudden downpour. Grant it folks the strategic policy of this regime has backfired and hence you have apologists coming out of the woodwork to tar BJP specifically.
I expect the BJP to be made an even bigger villain than currently for its yeoman's service to national cause. As far as coming to power is concerned, dekhi jayegi.
FYI they are ruling 10 Indian states out of which 5 are outright and 5 in alliance. Their voice COUNTS, any Dilli wala or Banglori non-national anthem singer will have to live and deal with them for their entire lives either in power or out of power. Deal with it and come to terms with reality!!!
The nationalists will not go away irrespective of name calling and blatant persecution by a certain section since 2004. They are proud to bear the marks of their stint in this virtual Gulag.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 17 Sep 2010 17:46

shiv wrote:
Juggi G wrote:This is the Medicine that should be administered to Geelani, Mirwaiz & APHC, the Leadership i.e.
Kashmiri Police Forces Kashmiri Youth to Walk Naked
My My what brutality?
In this day and age? nakedness? tsk tsk.
Even babies are born with diapers nowadays. This is a groos violation of human rights. Imagine. Naked.

In summer it is okay, but in winter one could at least insert a few anti-fever suppositories using the tip of a baton.

I think in Germany, there are the most human rights violations I have ever seen.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 17 Sep 2010 18:40

"Kapdaa upar kar"

...the recording fella is after foreskin(s)....somebody is singing happily in the background....

Actually these videos will incite more violence...shouldn't have been leaked.

Human rights?...when a mob goes rogue...forget human rights...when they don't do protests peacefully...and pursue it violently destroying whatever comes their way....this'll be done eventually....or even more heinous things which we can't imagine...

what will any parent do if their kid despite buying him toys, ice creams, chocolates, video games etc is still on a spree destroying and vandalizing everything from kitchen to garden?....give autonomy and then freedom?

comparison sucks...but a human brain reacts similarly on both occasions...different methods for different age groups.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Sep 2010 19:12

vina wrote:
The BJP policies are religion centered and a dead end.

With due respect, I disagree Vina-garu. While I have no admiration and liking towards BJP, this is gross misrepresentation of BJP. They did not do a single action in the interest of any religion, including Hindus. They took up an issue very close to Hindu majority to make political gains.

Not that you cannot have your own POV, but making such statements put us in the same line as K.Nayyar and Al-Braman saar etc.,

What we (collectively at BRF, IMHO) want from the political parties is a nationalistic posture. This includes a certain stand on heritage and culture. In that sense BJP at least makes nationalistic noises, and this is where we might see issue-based support to them.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 17 Sep 2010 19:19

vina wrote:
Now by every account the gun is missing totally and while the expression is anarchic and arsonist, it is undeniable that the current situation's impulse is largely on the more peaceful and legitimate side ....

Regrettably, all too often, so-called liberals are either out of touch with reality, or are being viciously dishonest. This is the situation on the ground:

30 terrorists killed by army in Kashmir this month

As many as 30 terrorists have been killed in army operations between September 1 and 16 in Kashmir Valley, an army spokesman said on Friday.

Of these, 15 terrorists were killed on the Line of Control (LOC) and the remaining in the hinterland in the Valley during the period, Lt Col J S Brar, Officiating Public Relations Officer of Northern Command headquarters, said in a release here.

The army had eliminated six terrorists and also recovered bodies of two ultras in Kashmir yesterday, he said, adding eight AK rifles, hand grenades, radio sets, sophisticated satellite equipment, maps and coding algorithms were also recovered.

The spokesman said these operations have been conducted in a professional and surgical manner where no collateral damage has occurred. This has been another blow to the terrorist designs in the Valley, he added.

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news ... th/682990/

If people are able to sleep in peace in their homes, it is because of the continuous defensive war being waged by the security forces.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2010 20:14

Venkarl wrote:"Kapdaa upar kar" ...the recording fella is after foreskin(s)....somebody is singing happily in the background....

Actually these videos will incite more violence...shouldn't have been leaked.

saar - they are not beating them. They are not even tied up They are merely restraining them so they cannot run away easily. The men are holding their clothes and walking naked. Today's temperature was 30 deg C (that is warm enough to take your clothes off and the policemen were made to suffer.

In India a lot of people go about naked and barefooted. What's the big deal? Is some religious code being broken by walking naked?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2010 20:47

Are we to really believe in the undie tv sponsored view that pre teens and young teens really have a deep or any understanding of azadi??

Generation brought up under the shadow of the gun!!! BULL CRAP.

If the vina types ( and there are plenty in this country ) believe that it is the anger of the "youth", I would like to point out that the eiffel tower is still for sale.

This is a preplanned strategy of a thinking and crafty enemy who has sworn to destroy us. To adopt a wishy washy response is to betray the very people who have without question sacrificed lives to protect scum who deserved to die at partition itself.

We have appeased enough and MMS is fronting for powers
that do not have our best interests at heart.

To even think for a minute that these unwashed abduls, young though they may be, are not paid, guided and motivated by our old aman ki asha friends beggars imagination.

The stones are as lethal and dangerous as bullets. More than 1700 security personnel have been injured and many grievously. Such tactics have just been transplanted from palestine.

That hoary chestnut of stones confronted unjustly by guns just will not wash anymore. Stone throwing is simply as violent as firing guns.

omar has royally f@$&%^ up. The reason is that he is incapable and clueless. To dress up in hep tees and vacation weekends in Delhi while in office is the hall mark of a lazy and low IQ moron who thinks that babus will clean up the mess that he has wantonly created.

Being CM is a 24X7 job. No time out at all. If the heat is too much to take then he should get out of the kitchen.
farook will be even worse.

yuvraj is forced to support him because he was the one who forced omar upon the kashmiris.

mehbooba is vainglorious and eaten up with extreme jealousy that she was not made the CM. Literally a case of a woman scorned and hence the tantrums.

She desperately tried to cobble up some understanding with the rajmata which was promptly undermined by the yuvraj as a warning to the local wahabi congressmen not to fish in troubled waters.

The not so fine hand of the ISI and the paki army is visible.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2010 20:59

sunnyP wrote:http://ibnlive.in.com/news/its-not-easy ... ml?from=tn

This is why Abdullah Snr needs to be CM of J&K and not his son. This interview is worth watching in full.

abdullah snr is even less acceptable to the kashmiris than abdullah jnr, if such a thing is even possible.

sum · Post by **sum** » 17 Sep 2010 21:00

<edited> never mind!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Sep 2010 21:02

merlin wrote:
ramana wrote:He has assessed the new regime coming in!
Precisely. Previously he had described the entire BRF as a Hindutva forum that's when he was sucking upto rajmata.

Mrs G made a great mistake when she let the RAW be staffed with Police minds. Of all PMs she had the personality to shape the future of RAW and didn't. After her no one could make the necessary mind change.

Note: BRF was dubbed Hindutva based on remarks of a non-Indian member!!! And his remarks were quoted in the article!

Great assessment or really find the data which confirms pre-determined opinion.

--
By his article he has made open or khulla the failed policy of some in the govt of appeasing the US with partial autonomy for Cashmere. The Valley riots and PRC in Gilgit are linked. Both are to take advantage of what some in the govt who planned to salami slice Kashmir away from India.
Valley extremists and PRC thought Why settle for small piece when you can grab the whole? As the region was going to be salami sliced anyway PRC grabbed Gilgit. That is the conclusion. And the Retd Intel Offical couldnt see that as he has blinders or saffron tinted glasses and sees Hindutva where there is the Indian national flag.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Sep 2010 21:17

Folks please don't go overboard. All vina did was express an opinion that a lot of people don't like. He hardly "badmouthed" BJP. All criticism is "badmouthing" if you happen to be at the receiving end. Compliments to RamaY for politely disagreeing.

Not surprising that B Raman felt it was a Hindutva forum. (I will explain the pisko bit some other time) Too many people take umbrage at one Indian's opinion. India is full of opinions and I would have thought that it is sufficient to say "I disagree with vina" rather than making veiled references to traitors and non national anthem singing Bangloris. The thread looks so stupid I want to say bad things about BJP just to get undies in a twist and have some fun. It is that easy to do that on BRF. Need to lighten up folks.

PS: Remember that on this forum any praise of the Congress party comes in for criticism that is as bitter and as harsh as criticism of the BJP. This clearly gives an apparent color to the discussions on here even if there is denial. If you take this page as "Pro BJP incident number 001" of umbrage at BJP criticism and count from today the events where there are protests at BJP criticism and Congress praise - you will see what i mean. Should we keep count? As Pakistan is finding out statistics often tell a different story from personal protestation. I am willing to be proven wrong.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 17 Sep 2010 21:27

vina wrote:...The BJP policies are religion centered and a dead end....

Small clarification to all folks who may desire to defend against this slander of BJP. Vinaji in his own words did a big lungi dance after the May 2009 election victory of UPA (Congress (I) & allies). He is a self proclaimed Cong(I) party supporter and his eloquent passage above is no different than all others appearing in English media. It is an undeniable fact that his favorite party's policies and strategies have brought us to this crossroad. This party has governed India and thus adminstered control over J&K for more than 50 years out of the 63 years(including the last 6 years) of Independent Bharat. Yet in a thread about J&K (and I assume his post was about finding newer solutions to resolve the J&K issue), his first and last paragraphs are entirely dedicated to denigrating the BJP. These supporters and the leadership of Cong(I) expects India and her citizens to expect better set ideas to come out of these tired delusional minds. B Raman (a retd top level Babu in GoI) writes about his intellectual and professional deficiencies in understanding the current situation and yet assumes he is correct in his assessment of the way forward.

On several issues that plague the country and on J&K in particular, these people and their leadership have been wrong more times than I care to count. Their latest idea to take us forward is to place their hopes on their young leader Rahul Gandhi (who we can safely say enjoys his leadership position on account of his last name and not due to any past policy formulations or actions). But is this a job he wants?
From Rediff slide show Sep 16, 2010 : 'Kashmir is a full time problem'

...
Gandhi said, "Kashmir is not a part time problem, it is a full time problem."

Gandhi ruled out intervening in the Kashmir issue, saying, "If I were to get into it, I would have to give full time to it. There are many other leaders who want to give me a job. The way I have been brought up is to carry out my responsibility. I am doing a job now. It is a full time responsibility (as a leader of the Youth Congress). I have to finish it."
...

These propogandist want the leaders of the J&K wahabbist movement to share some of the blame for the violence but I have never heard them accept responsibilty for the innocent blood spilt on account of their foolish or haphazard policies. Wah re Wah cong(I) loyalist.

Ps: I have not offered any explanation or counter argument on Vinaji's claims on BJP because I feel none is required. BJP needs such cong(I) propahgandhists to keep doing such an excellent jobs in convincing the rest of India about their past mistakes at the polls.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 17 Sep 2010 21:30

sum wrote:
If the vina types ( and there are plenty in this country ) believe that it is the anger of the "youth", I would like to point out that the eiffel tower is still for sale.
Thats what surprised me that even after the overdose of unedited, non-secular, non-sugarcoated info provided on BR about the Wahabbi KMs and how they have gone past the point of no return, some people actually believe that bad mouthing evil, communal BJP( which has zilch presence in the valley) and getting Rahul-baba to talk to the "severely Islamic" KMs will cause them to give up their dream of having a caliphate and rejoin communal India( which has the most fascists of them parties, BJP as the main opposition!!)...

Seems that even siding with the armed forces on a issue ( like the AFSPA) is a communal thing!!

sum saar,

"severely Islamic". That's poetry. Beautifully turned phrase.

The BJP has lost focus and is pulling in many directions. I used to be a fan once but not anymore.

The abdullahs are the ones with the serious caliphate dreams. This can happen only if they align with India and the only things they can then peddle is water, tourism and power.

They are the ones trying to defang the Army with just a little help from the congress and a lot of cheering from the commies.

If the wahabi KMs declare independence, the first and most vital casualty is the Indus water treaty.

With the IWT dead in the water and both India and the pakis will have to pay for much of the water that for free flows to both countries now. Newly independent countries are unpredictable and subject to funny policies. Ergo, independence will never happen and hence the "will of the kashmiri people" as espoused by the pakis for accession to sunni pakiland.

The BJP is just a red herring. The geelanis and mirwaizes will experience a terminal vocational paradigm shift ( not my phrase! ) and will be replaced by more pliant sponsored candidates.

And then the pakjabis will take over and the kashmiris will wish that they had never been born.

Our vina types will land up at wagah with candles and we all know where they can put them.