J & K news and discussion

[ramana]

When the delegation is going to do their job why attack them?

[ramana]

Pioneer Op-Ed

http://www.dailypioneer.com/283878/Ride ... storm.html

Ride out the storm
September 18, 2010 3:16:28 AM

Ashok Malik

In a world after 9/11, nobody wants the creation of another Islamist territory. Rather, global powers want India to succeed in Kashmir

If the New Delhi grapevine is to be believed, the UPA Government has sounded out Mr Wajahat Habibullah for the job of Governor of Jammu & Kashmir. Mr Habibullah, a former IAS officer, retires as Chief Information Commissioner at the end of September. Having served many years in India’s most troubled State, he understands the ‘Kashmir question’ better than many others.

Whether Mr Habibullah makes it to the Raj Bhawan in Srinagar or not, he has a lot to contribute to the discourse on Jammu & Kashmir. In particular, his paper of 2004, written while he was a fellow at the United States Institute of Peace in Washington, DC, is worth reading for an at once clear-headed and sensitive portrayal of Jammu & Kashmir’s complexities, for lessons to learn and ideas to consider, and for hope in a time of grimness.

Admittedly ‘The Political Economy of the Kashmir Conflict: Opportunities for Economic Peace-building and for US Policy’, as Mr Habibullah’s paper is called, was written in a very different period. In 2003 and 2004, nudged by the George W Bush Administration and by the fact that both Mr Atal Bihari Vajpayee in India and Gen Pervez Musharraf in Pakistan were unchallenged in their leadership of their national Governments, India and Pakistan began what appeared to be a genuine composite dialogue on the status of Jammu & Kashmir and other issues.

The domestic situation in the State was also better. Violence had ebbed; after the 2002 Assembly election and with the arrival of Mufti Mohammed Sayeed as Chief Minister, the local Government had a certain street credibility. Early conversation on the nature and impact of the ‘peace dividend’, provided India and Pakistan began working towards some sort of an arrangement that envisaged open borders, free trade and economic cooperation between the two Kashmirs, was beginning.

Mr Habibullah’s paper was written in this context. It made a serious assessment of the forest resources of the Kashmir Valley (and their depletion), of the incubation of private enterprise — as opposed to a culture of Union Government handouts and disguised bribery, which “set an unhealthy economic precedent, earning for Kashmiris the contempt of both Indians and Pakistanis as a people who could be traded … (and) only increased their sense of self-loathing” — of Jammu & Kashmir’s 15,000 MW hydropower potential, and of opening up the State's economy to foreign investment.

Given the terrifying events of recent weeks, such thoughts may seem utopian. Yet, this template cannot be wished away. Sooner or later, as and when a modicum of tranquillity returns to the Valley, New Delhi and Srinagar will need to revisit it or at least a variant of it. They will also have to acknowledge how the Congress and the UPA Government, with astonishing complacency and cussedness, ensured talks with the section of the separatist leadership that was willing to talk went nowhere. The result is there for all to see.

The biggest change in the Kashmiri protests has been the complete sinking of the ethnic/non-religious separatist cause in the frightening and turbulent seas of pan-Islamism. This past week’s renewed violence was triggered by an Iranian news channel that carried images of the Quran being desecrated in the United States. It led to effigies of Mr Barack Obama — perhaps the most Left-wing and to that extent ‘unAmerican’ President in American history — being burnt in Srinagar.

This indicates a dramatic evolution. As late as 2004, Mr Habibullah could write: “Most Kashmiris regard the United States as an honest broker, an opinion rarely held in Muslim countries in the aftermath of 9/11. This view has also been expressed repeatedly in private by several members of the separatist leadership. In fact, Kashmiris credit all positive developments in the region over the past five years to efforts made by the United States.”

This was not surprising. The pro-azaadi spokespersons in Srinagar had for years seen the West as sympathetic. In fact, the All-Party Hurriyat Conference was sustained and given political heft in the 1990s by the untiring efforts of the British High Commission and the US Embassy in New Delhi. If a society seen as an “honest broker” only six years ago is today reviled in the Valley, it is not so much because America has changed as because the Kashmiri movement has. On current evidence, it is indistinguishable from Hamas-style religious frenzy.

However, India has one crucial advantage over, say, the Palestinian proto-nation that grapples with Hamas. Jammu & Kashmir represents a mature polity. A system of regular elections, the ability to enter into structured negotiation with a Union Government that is not unwilling to talk, the prospect of state power and, if nothing else, the loaves and fishes of office: All these incentivise moving from street-side rhetoric to some sort of political institution.

If one goes by the precedent of the early-1990s, this tends to happen after the mass madness — spontaneous or engineered or, as is often the case, a bit of both — has calmed and after a degree of law enforcement has re-established Indian authority. In November 1990, the Valley exploded. By 1993, tactics were being altered and a new political entity, the Hurriyat, was born.

The Kashmir Valley has moved much further to the Right and much deeper into the embrace of Islamism. Indeed, so worrying are the circumstances that Mufti Mohammed Sayeed seems almost a moderate compared to some of the hotheads on offer today. As for the Hurriyat, it is probably past its sell-by date.

So what happens next? India has survived worse and will live through these late-summer storms. It also has one strategic advantage over previous Kashmir upsurges, especially the one in 1990. Till then Western busybodies, including the odd US State Department official, experimented with ideas of a quasi-independent Jammu & Kashmir. Today, in a world after 9/11, nobody wants to risk the creation of another Islamist territory. Rather, global powers want India to succeed in the Valley, though they may occasionally attempt to define the trajectory of that success.

In time, the momentum of the on-going protests will die down, or be made to die down. The motivation of the new separatist commanders will anyway decline after Mr Obama’s India visit in November — and no doubt Srinagar’s ‘civil society protests’ began as a show for the American President. After that, a new, post-Hurriyat, separatist-friendly political organisation will emerge. India will need to engage it; there is no getting away from that.

--[email protected]

Looks like its a op-ed after emerging from a deep briefing. Lets see if Raphaelites reap what they sowed.

[CRamS]

CRamji, I doubt anything like that would happen as it would only force the political parties to close ranks and take a hardline stance against violence. This is a group of parliamentarians who will supposedly try to alleviate the problems of the protesting masses or atleast give them a patient hearing. It would be akin to shooting a messenger of peace. I think even TSPians are not that stupid unless they intend to provoke GoI down a certain path.

Absolutely, thats exactly what they want. There is nothing, short of undermining India's soverignty, that TSP can live with. And given that at least for now, this is not on the cards, why would TSP sit by and watch these parliamentarians to pull something off that would bolster India's case? Of course, there are many other ways TSP will undermine this whole exercies, but I was just speculating.

[RajeshA]

So the Kashmir Valley Wahhabis (KVW) are doing all this just to greet President Obama, and all these protests would continue till he comes, for his personal entertainment.

[Prem]

So the Kashmir Valley Wahhabis (KVW) are doing all this just to greet President Obama, and all these protests would continue till he comes, for his personal entertainment.

Let them do their nautanki ( and may be try to hit them hard) but protect the minute population of Hindus/Sikhs and other minority near valley. Every visit of high dgnitary from USA has coincided with their bloodshed.Since they are under the Wahabi influence , this time may be they try same trick on Shias/Gujjars beside their usual H/S victims.

[thayilv]

Bhailog, what will it take for GOI to rethink its current position on J&K? I mean what must happen for GOI to harden its stance and decide enough is enough?

[Dhiman]

Bhailog, what will it take for GOI to rethink its current position on J&K? I mean what must happen for GOI to harden its stance and decide enough is enough?

Pakistan is in tatters right now (specially after the floods) and if recent past is any indication of recent future, then rest assured Pakistan's next 10 years are going to be more grim than its previous 10 years. In such a case, the tide is going along with the general mentality in GoI (sit on the butt, do nothing, and hope that time will cure all problems), so I would say wait.

Wait five more years and let TSP get more weaker, more demoralized, and more dysfunctional, then do a cold start and walk over POK and yes unlike some of the other educated opinions here, I truly thing that taking back POK will truly be a walk and may not even lead to a nuclear exchange (assuming that TSP actually has working nukes). This will send a strong message to Jihadists and worse come to worse the region will need to be appeased for next 50 years.

Given the almost impotent state of TSP today, Kashmir is a dead issue right now. Now it mainly depends upon India how Kashmir gets resolved. TSP is no longer relevant. So pressure needs to be put on GoI to resolve Kashmir unilaterally.

[Muppalla]

Bhailog, what will it take for GOI to rethink its current position on J&K? I mean what must happen for GOI to harden its stance and decide enough is enough?

There are toooo many sides to GOI. How can we define which side's current position rethinking needs? It will be status quo for a while and which is good too and there will no BS of packages and autonomies.

All party meeting is a good vacation to Indian leaders and let them enjoy the time away from their busy Dill lives.

[ramana]

I guess B Ramanji is not aware of this.

All about baba-log

C O M M E N T A R Y

All about baba-logs
Rahul Gandhi has set the disastrous agenda for Jammu and Kashmir, says N.V.Subramanian.

17 September 2010: History may not always repeat itself as tragedy or farce but it may bring bitter memories. Rahul Gandhi's defence of Omar Abdullah on the plea that he is young, Kashmir is tough and that he ought to be given more time somehow brings uncomfortable remembrances of the Rajiv Gandhi-Farooq Abdullah tie-up of nineteen eighty-seven that boomeranged and inaugurated insurgency and then jihadi terrorism in J and K that remains uncontained to this day.

The Rajiv Gandhi-Farooq Abdullah relationship was of course preceded by generational ties between Jawaharlal Nehru and Sheikh Abdullah which were friendly but uneasy to hostile at the same time, especially after J and K's accession to India. Farooq dynastically succeeded his father in the early nineteen-eighties but the happy relations with Delhi did not last. He was deposed and replaced by his brother-in-law, G.M.Shah, who was a uniform disaster.

Later, Farooq returned to Rajiv's good books and they fought the nineteen eighty-seven J and K elections together, which was heavily rigged. Several separatist J and K politicians have told this writer that they were in no position to capture the assembly and that Rajiv and Farooq got unnecessarily paranoid resulting in massive booth capturing. Syed Salahuddin of the Hizbul Mujahideen was declared elected in the counting station but got defeated in the official announcement. Salahuddin of course became a ruthless Pakistan-trained militant but it is also true that a large number of election agents on the side of the Muslim United Front began to wield arms against the Indian state.

This bit of potted history is important to know for readers who may not intimately be acquainted with J and K's past. Certainly, the key difference between the situation then and now is that Omar Abdullah's National Conference and the Congress are in a legitimate alliance in J and K and that the election that brought them to power was entirely free and fair. The National Conference also won substantially in the Valley this time to honestly claim to represent the people there.

But it is equally true that Omar Abdullah has failed. After the recent round of violence in J and K and Omar's extraordinary decision to be in Delhi to celebrate Id with his family despite intelligence warnings of likely trouble in Srinagar, the Union cabinet delivered him a calculated snub. Ignoring his demand to either withdraw the Armed Forces Special Powers' Act or dilute it in the state, the cabinet spoke of "government deficit", effectively laying the blame at his door. Anyone else in his place would have resigned. Up to then, Omar Abdullah had shown redeeming sensitivity to such matters. But this time, he stuck it out, presumably on the advice of his father, Farooq Abdullah. But when the going for Omar especially toughened after the all-party meeting on J and K in Delhi and in the background of the Congress-PDP talks for reviving the alliance in the state, Rahul Gandhi dropped his veritable bombshell, expressing unqualified support for his disastrous friend.

The die is cast, so to speak. Any move to displace Omar Abdullah will be stillborn now. Rahul's support of Omar Abdullah washes out his mother, Sonia Gandhi's overtures to the PDP's Mehbooba Mufti, which of course may be explained away as an internal party (or family!) matter. But to back Omar when all options are open as an all-party delegation plans to visit J and K and decides on a future course is to insult those constituent political parties and above all to scorn the Union cabinet and the prime minister, Manmohan Singh.


{So another cat fight inside INC}

Presumably, after reading this and perhaps similar pieces, the Congress party will quickly get into damage-control mode, denying any intended insult to any political party, individual or office. But Rahul Gandhi has done the damage. This is the second time he has acted extra-constitutionally. His pressure on the environment ministry to terminate Vedanta's mining operations in Niyamgiri Hills (whatever be the rights or wrongs of the issue) counts as the first. There may have been other instances, including perhaps one related to Mani Shankar Aiyar in the first UPA government, but these are the most advertised extra-constitutional interventions in the UPA-II administration, happening within two years of its coming to power.

The issue is not whether Rahul Gandhi is correct or incorrect about his judgment of Omar Abdullah. He may have seen exceptional statesmanship in Omar Abdullah that you and I have missed. But what business does he have to interfere in the affairs of government while remaining out of it? All the blame for continuing with Omar Abdullah's ghastly administration will fall on the Central government and take a toll on the country while Rahul Gandhi will earn points as standing by his buddy. It has all been reduced to a game of baba-logs.

Is there hope? Not a chance. If Manmohan Singh had any sense of self, he would have upped and resigned long ago. In the event, expect the situation to worsen in Jammu and Kashmir while the Centre has its hands tied by Rahul Gandhi. To this writer at least, the visit of an all-party delegation to J and K makes no sense now, after Rahul Gandhi has hijacked the agenda.

Well, who knows? History might repeat as more tragedy in Jammu and Kashmir.

[Anantha]

Given the almost impotent state of TSP today, Kashmir is a dead issue right now. Now it mainly depends upon India how Kashmir gets resolved. TSP is no longer relevant. So pressure needs to be put on GoI to resolve Kashmir unilaterally.

It is possible US had brokered a solution in J&K with LOC as border +transit rights to India in POK (or Joint mgmt), with Ombaba signing it off in Nov. To stop this China may have paid of the Hurryrats to create trouble in July-Aug and simultaneously move in to POK stop this j&K solution.
It is possible Indian planners may not allow a solution to J &K without direct land access to Europe. This land access simultaneously cuts off Chinese access to Gwador.
The solution now is only an uprising in Gilgit/Baltistan orchestrated via talibanic freedom fighters owned by uncle, to drive out the Chinese.
One look at the map at Pok and we can realize how idiotic was this man Nehru, not to have reclaimed POK in 1948.

[Dhiman]

It is possible US had brokered a solution in J&K with LOC as border +transit rights to India in POK (or Joint mgmt), with Ombaba signing it off in Nov. To stop this China may have paid of the Hurryrats to create trouble in July-Aug and simultaneously move in to POK stop this j&K solution.

TSP doesn't appear to be stable enough to enforce any solution even if some-part of it agreed to a solution. It's practically dividing itself and giving away de-facto control of different parts to US, Taliban, and China. The issue that worries me is that If a time comes when TSP's collapse is imminent, will TSP formally hand over Gilgit/Balistan to China right before it collapses (in return for TSP generals getting montary incentives in their swiss accounts) just so that India doesn't get POK after TSP's demise?

TSP is weak right now and will get weaker, but don't hope for TSP to collapse completely before unilaterally resolving J&K since others (China) may be willing to pick up the pieces. At the same time don't act saintly and hope that TSP will recover and live at peace with India. The only practical solution is to intervene at a suitable time and reclaim POK, before somebody else finds a suitable time to do the same. From what I can see that suitable time is approaching fast God is giving us an opportunity and we should encash it instead of wailing for other opportunity to come up.

The solution now is only an uprising in Gilgit/Baltistan orchestrated via talibanic freedom fighters owned by uncle, to drive out the Chinese.

Sounds like a good start.

[shiv]

Land can only be taken back by re-populating it with others, not just the local Kashmiris be it KM or KP.

Bade the identity of the "others" is what makes me wonder if Wahhabandi and EJs have figured out what Kissinger concluded. I had linked this off the Indian Interests thread. Please mull over what he says. If there is an iota of truth to what he says - we are basically doomed in the long term. The scope for expansion and repopulation is severely restricted. Check our or opposition to what is alien - be it Italian or whatever.

I am serious: Scanned pages below - see the highlighted bit. Ignore the egalitarianism fluff.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/cy ... singer.jpg

[Sanjay M]

I actually agree deeply with B. Raman here. The BJP policies are religion centered and a dead end. They are never going to come again to power in India ever and destined to be in the opposition and wither away long term. Problem for them is that he Congress has moved to the right in economic terms and grabbed away from the BJP what could have been their plank.

Translation of your comments: appeasement is the only solution. To hold up the mirror to the Muslims and the Left is mean and evil.

The reality is that Congress has only been temporarily able to move to the right, since maintaining economic momentum requires imposing the rigors of reform on the people. The self-serving Congress cannot maintain any economic momentum, but only bleed off that momentum to convert it into partisan power for themselves.

If you don't understand that, then you've been snoring through the last 6 decades of Congress rule.

So essentially the "broad spectrum politics" of the Congress wins. Left of center socially (inclusive, broadminded, secular , socially open giving the greatest possible catchment among all social groups) and right of center than before (as can be reasonably possible given India's state of development) economically delivering growth and prosperity. BJP is really left in a sh*t creek without a paddle.

The problem is that Congress is a parasite doomed to kill its host. Lowest-common-denominator politics is what India has practiced for 5 of the past 6 decades, and what has made India the economic basketcase it is struggling to stop being.

The only remaining place for BJP to be ultra hawkish on National Security and while in opposition , yes, you can take up such extreme positions.

Because when you have saintly neighbors like Pakistan and China, then any antagonism towards them is the result of one's own hawkishness???

However the broader point which Raman makes with his honest admission

have intellectual and professional deficiencies in understanding the current situation

is absolutely correct.

There is a qualitative and fundamental difference between 1989 and now. There it was the gun that was doing the talking in Kashmir and so that kind of uncompromising violence and terror and the the response to that had to be via guns from the Indian state.

Really, and the fact that Indian Army was only deployed after the violence started exploding is lost on you? You'd like to pretend that Indian Army was somehow the cause when they hadn't even been deployed yet?

Now by every account the gun is missing totally and while the expression is anarchic and arsonist, it is undeniable that the current situation's impulse is largely on the more peaceful and legitimate side if those particular Kashmiris who seem to have a problem, are strictly disciplined and don't resort to arson and anarchy and there is no coercion in terms of "bandh" enforcement (but then, lets face it, such kind of discipline and respect for larger rights in Bandhs is alien to the Indian political culture and bandhs anywhere are enforced by coercion and threats of violence).

The larger point I am making here is that the response to the current situation is NOT the same as in 1989. You have to do it differently.

The way to do it differently is to rationalize the constitution and stop enshrining ethnic ghetto-states in various parts of the country. Already there are other parochialist groups who want Article370 style "protections" for themselves.
To maintain ethnic ghettos is to keep the flames of ethnic parochialism boiling.

This is where you need a good communicative leader from Delhi with credibility to make it clear. MMS cant do it. Rahul Gandhi can. And that is, if you want to protest peacefully, you can do so perfectly well. It is well within you rights , as long as there is no arson or general anarchy or any coercion in making others participate. Any violence or anarchy during any of those protests will be the sole responsibility of the folks calling for those protests and the onus rests on them. Stop violence and anarchy and the

Ohhh, you're a worshipper of the little prince, are you - the little flunker?
Yeah, I think you've just summed up your credibility with your Rahul worship.
I, on the other hand, have no respect for that Personality Cult. Especially when the flunker is stubbornly sticking up for his incompetent protegé Omar Abdullah.

I have a better solution to changing the hearts and minds of the rioters:
Ikhwanis & Co.

Worked pretty effectively before, and will especially work this time around.
We had to go through a tedious learning curve before figuring out that correct solution the last time, and hopefully we'll not have to dawdle forever before again applying this already proven solution.

We can afford to hire a lot more of them this time.
Best to take lots of photos of street protesters - the better to deal with them at leisure.

And more importantly, you need someone to connect with the young people on the streets there. It cant be the doddering oldies like MMS or the fundamentalist loony dinosaur like Geelani on the other side. Only a communicative leader can tell those protesters and the larger Muslim population of Kashmir, yes, it is your democratic right to protest, but not to indulge in arson and violence . Stop that and keep that stopped, the security forces will go away from the streets and street corners and bring normalcy back . After that and we can talk about anything you want in an open ended manner . It is not very different from what the GOI is saying or doing, but you need a fresh new face and voice to say it.

Ikhwanis can put an end to the arson problem right away. That's why it's best not to wait years before re-discovering this solution.

Also that is the only way you can stop the stunts of folks like the Mirwaiz on EID , who called for the march to Lal Chowk but when it goes out of hand disown it and say he is not responsible.

Make it very clear that yes, we hear you when there are protests, you have a right to protest peacefully, we can talk about everything and work towards something that is acceptable to everyone, however, you have no right to violence and anarchy and to coerce , and if there is any , it is the total responsibility of those who call for those protests.

The BJP beyond hackneyed rhetoric of yesterday has nothing to offer and cant seem to think beyond their tired old chavunism and extreme position in their only remaining corner, hawkishness on national security.

The BJP is indeed in need of new leadership, but that should come from Modi.
The traditional appeasement policy is just a road to more perdition, and goodness knows we've had enough of that.

I can't help but smirk at your hypocritical labeling of BJP's chauvinism, while ignorantly pretending that the Kashmiri protesters are sweet little innocents engaging in anything but chauvinism and parochialism.

[abhishek_sharma]

Chasing a consensus

K. Subrahmanyam

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Chasi ... sus/682656

...

The prime minister referred to the fact that while some violence in Kashmir was spontaneous, some was orchestrated. The UPA chairperson stressed the need to understand the causes for the anger of the youth in Kashmir and called for magnanimity. It appeared that most of the participants, not all, proceeded on the basis that the agitators in Kashmir had genuine grievances and they will be amenable to discussion and a rational solution of those grievances. On the other hand, Syed Ali Shah Geelani, the separatist leader, had already asserted that he did not expect any positive result from the all-party meet. The demand that unconditional dialogue should be initiated by the government with all Kashmiri leaders, including the separatists, has been reiterated and there was no emphasis on a specific grievance redressal.

...

If the agitation in Kashmiri towns is about redressable grievances and the agitators are interested in dialogue and having their grievances addressed, then there should be peace in the next few days in Kashmir to enable the authorities to restore normalcy and allow the all-party delegation to move about freely and meet all Kashmiri leaders including the separatists. There is an alternative hypothesis referred to by the PM, that at least part of the violence was deliberately orchestrated. Underlying that hypothesis is the assessment that there are elements in Kashmir who are opposed to any grievance redressal or dialogue and are more interested in converting the Kashmir situation into an intifada to coincide with the opening of the UN general assembly session run-up to the Obama visit. If that hypothesis is correct then there may be no reduction in violence to facilitate the all-party delegation’s visit to Srinagar or meetings with the separatist leaders. One should instead expect non-cooperation from the separatist leaders and resurgence of violence. The issue will be tested from today and we may not have to wait long for an answer.

There are demands for unconditional dialogue with all Kashmiri parties and the prime minister agrees that there is no alternative to dialogue. But there are no commitments that the deliberate, provocative violence will stop. Analyses of riots all over the world reveal that a trigger group of 15 to 20 persons can instigate a mob to violence. Such large-scale police casualties indicate pre-planned provocations. One report mentions that more than 1600 policemen have been injured in the “non-violent” protests in Kashmir. A careful assessment is needed on whether the trading community in Srinagar and other towns would submit to continuous curfews, but for external threats to them to not come in the way of the provocative, high intensity stone-throwing planned as sustained campaigns.

Not much thought appears to have been given to the structure and process of Kashmir-Delhi political dialogue. In Kashmir, there are a large number of national and regional parties functioning within the framework of the Indian Constitution and are represented in the legislature and in Parliament. There are also separatist groups who have boycotted elections and whose popular support is not determinable but who are vociferous in their demands and are behind the agitations. The elected Kashmiri parties want the separatists to be included in the unconditional dialogue. In Delhi too there is no consensus on how the Kashmir problem should be addressed and on various component issues, such as the Armed Forces Special Powers Act or the degree of autonomy to be extended.

...

Delhi will not be able to arrive at any peaceful solution to the issue by negotiating directly with a whole host of Kashmiri parties, constitutionalists and separatists. Any concession to one or the other set of parties will be sabotaged by those left out. Nor can Delhi afford to overlook the possibility of Pakistan’s ISI initiating and sustaining violence. It looks as though the Kashmiri parties and the separatists are attempting to use Delhi to cover up their own “crypto civil war”. Kashmiri crowds are indulging in intense violence to provoke the Kashmiri policemen under an elected Kashmiri administration. The Indian army and paramilitary forces (the CRPF is a police force at the disposal of the Kashmir police) are not involved in the present violence. Delhi should not get itself trapped in the “crypto Kashmiri civil war”.

[shiv]

Shivji - since Hinduism does not have an active recruitment/conversion program, the Hinduism concepts are alien to kiss ginger and he is painting it as elitist and closed (as in you have to be born into it etc).

This is the well known argument. But let me ask you two rhetorical if OT questions. Is there any way an Italian Catholic lady's children can become Hindus? If not, how far off the mark is Kissinger? Or kiss ginger as you said.

[ramana]

shiv, Kissinger doesn't know how Hinduism works. If there wanst acceptance how oul the various invaders before the Islamist surge assimilate into the Hindu fold? And how were the converted taken back into Hindu fold in the early 20th Century. And what about the sadhus reconverting the tribals back in Orissa?

He is totally wrong. Two steps are needed. Those desiring to enter the fold have to have the desire and their community of friends should be willing to accept them. And after that there is a shuddi ceremony that sanctifies there return.

[Karan M]

Shiv,

Of course they can.

In recent days, you might have seen this:
ahttp://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Julia-Roberts-embraces-Hinduism/articleshow/6267826.cms

Or you might see this:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/ssc/hawaii/

Kissinger just betrays his ignorance in that bit of text. The reason why "walls" were built up earlier between converts to Islam/religion of the invaders/etc and non converts is that reconquista was not possible from a severely weakened society in many cases, which was struggling to survive, so it walled itself in, in order to survive in several cases. As long as the invaders from Central Asia kept flooding in, it was a see saw battle and without sidetracking too much into history, even the Deccan "reconquest" could not last a full two centuries and begin on the idealogical reconquista, as the British came in & picked off an exhausted Indian civilization, which was quite simply, broke and fatigued. Plus, our mindset had become defensive and tie it to dharma or diffidence, we simply didnt do what the opponent did.

Sadly, shades of what we currently face in J&K and elsewhere, trying to fight a defensive battle and resolutely spinning wheels about how moral and superior we are, while the enemy uses any and every strategem to break us.

Coming back to today, there is no dogma that says conversion to Hinduism is not possible.

The real issue is that Hinduism, unlike the two Semitic religions, namely I & C: does not have an active convert at all costs zeal to it. People who want to get into it, can, but there is no organized attempt made by multiple organizations, each trying to outdo the other, in the name of faith, and therein lies the difference.

Thats a huge problem. Added to which is the muddle headed liberal outlook which thinks all such activity is Ok, needs to be defended and feels guilt over even countering it, idealogically.

Look at the post made in another thread by a gent who accused a hindu political party of "historical revanchism" - never mind, that every day, non Hindus attack, persecute Hindus using all sorts of "historical" precedent and texts. Simply put, most educated, well to do, Hindus dont have any sense of community or group dynamic. Call it brainwashing, call it the way we are, its just the way it is. In contrast, even today, despite the oft quoted secularization (the real kind) and atheism in the west, both I & C, have extensive fund raising drives, and committed groups who regularly canvass for converts and consider it their religious duty to fulfill while on earth.

When was the last time a bunch of Hindus took a couple of years off, and went off to the US to gain converts. But its fairly common for church groups, with both young & retired folks in it, to visit "heathen" lands to bring them the "word". Yeah, theres heavy money in all this, gained via tithe but theres a very heavy idealogical component to this & the money ends up getting converts.

In India, the Govt. even takes the revenue gained from temple trusts & has a say in where its allocated, so there again, Hindus lose out, even if there was a conversion angle to begin with.

[brihaspati]

Shuddhi is probably for those who had "gone out" within this lifetime. For descendants it is "re-entry". There are many precedence for this and fresh entry - like Rudradaman. Even KM examples exist I think. An Italian lady's children can be technically "Hindu" if their father is a "Hindu", and she has not brought them up as subscribing to some non-hindu religion. One step is also made towards this if the marriage was under "Hindu rites" in addition to any civil rites.

[Hari Seldon]

Kinda OT and shall stop after this but can't help but comment on this below:

Coming back to today, there is no dogma that says conversion to Hinduism is not possible.

The real issue is that Hinduism, unlike the two Semitic religions, namely I & C: does not have an active convert at all costs zeal to it. People who want to get into it, can, but there is no organized attempt made by multiple organizations, each trying to outdo the other, and therein lies the difference.

Was having a conversation with an otherwise lovey-dovey liberal-ish colleague who, surprise, surpise was anguished about the aggresive pros-letization program of the churchists. In fact, she mentioned that if only we could replace the current TTD board, stacked with freeloading govt nominees, for one year - just for one year, with the ISKCON board, we'd see results in fouble quick time. With the kind of kind of money, muscle, credibility, reach, organization and incentive that the TTD has, we could give the churchists a real fair-fight. Hear ,hear - Amen!

OK, just saying, sorry for the OT. Moving on.

[shiv]

Shiv,

Of course they can.

Then Italian birth is not a bar to becoming Indian? Or is it not a bar to becoming Indic?

That is the crux of the issue in many ways. Kissinger knows zilch and I could rip his views apart, but there is one bit of scary truth in what he says. There is a very definite reluctance among some Hindus to accept some aliens as one of their own. Not all Hindus. Some Hindus. Call these people as "group A". There is another group of Hindus who will accept anyone as their own with few conditions. Call them "group B"

The BJP has given the appearance of attracting and keeping more Group A people
Congress has the appearance of attracting and keeping group B people

[Karan M]

Shuddhi is probably for those who had "gone out" within this lifetime. For descendants it is "re-entry". There are many precedence for this and fresh entry - like Rudradaman. Even KM examples exist I think. An Italian lady's children can be technically "Hindu" if their father is a "Hindu", and she has not brought them up as subscribing to some non-hindu religion. One step is also made towards this if the marriage was under "Hindu rites" in addition to any civil rites.

The thing is today much more is acceptable, as we are no longer, thanks to the Armed Forces at the border, at least facing total annihilation, even though low level "boiling frog" subversion takes place thanks to vote bank politics and appeasement of criminal elements. So attitudes have relaxed**, and there is a gradual return to the way things were as far as Hinduism is concerned in many areas, which I personally believe was the case, before the Indian civilization entered a period of constant conflict and turmoil, and hardened itself to survive. So today, a priest will "work with you" to find a way to bring someone into the faith, if they choose to be part of it, and many will even look kindly on it, even if amused/surprised.

**The flip side is of course, that Hindus today are so blase, thanks to the constant "aman ki asha" style indoctrination since independence, that they dont even recognise bigotry directed against their faith when they see it, or even realize the need to defend themselves against bigots. In fact, they'd rather be angry against any of their own people who dare to speak out, as that's considered rude, unacceptable and extremist. Case in point, ask many of our educated teenagers about their views on any Hindu political organization.

[Pranav]

Then Italian birth is not a bar to becoming Indian? Or is it not a bar to becoming Indic?

That is the crux of the issue in many ways. Kissinger knows zilch and I could rip his views apart, but there is one bit of scary truth in what he says. There is a very definite reluctance among some Hindus to accept some aliens as one of their own. Not all Hindus. Some Hindus. Call these people as "group A". There is another group of Hindus who will accept anyone as their own with few conditions. Call them "group B"

The BJP has given the appearance of attracting and keeping more Group A people
Congress has the appearance of attracting and keeping group B people

Well actually it depends upon the individual ... Sonia is the Bahu etc ... but what do you do with a Bahu that wants to steal from her in-laws?

[Pranav]

Aditi Phadnis: No two ways in Kashmir

If there is such a divergence in the Centre’s approach to the Kashmir issue, things are no better in the state. In all Indian states, however imperfectly they might function, two institutions do exist: the Vigilance Commission and the Information Commission. In J&K, neither has been appointed. If the Omar Abdullah regime feels charges of corruption against his government are balderdash, why doesn’t the government appoint these two commission, and also an Accountability Commission to probe charges of extortion and excesses by the police? Why doesn’t the Congress that is part of the government make this its central demand ?

On corruption in Kashmir, the less said the better. The government has been appointing teachers in government schools. Before their names are announced, successful candidates get a call. The person at the other end says, “You’ve been selected. Come to such and such place.” The demand ranges from Rs 50,000 to Rs 1,00,000. If you don’t pay, your name can vanish from the list. It is no coincidence that Peerzada Mohammed Syed’s ancestral home in Kokernag was attacked by a mob on Eid day. He is the education minister from the Congress.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ir/408424/

[Bade]

Land can only be taken back by re-populating it with others, not just the local Kashmiris be it KM or KP.

Bade the identity of the "others" is what makes me wonder if Wahhabandi and EJs have figured out what Kissinger concluded. I had linked this off the Indian Interests thread. Please mull over what he says. If there is an iota of truth to what he says - we are basically doomed in the long term. The scope for expansion and repopulation is severely restricted. Check our or opposition to what is alien - be it Italian or whatever.

I am serious: Scanned pages below - see the highlighted bit. Ignore the egalitarianism fluff.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a11/cy ... singer.jpg

In the case of Kashmiris of all religious color too, this outlook as Kissinger puts it holds, if one keeps them aside from the Indian identity as they seem to choose for themselves. So it is probably a Pan-Indian truism and is hampering in our efforts to see ourselves as one nation without some nudging from the powers of the time. Historically too this can be seen elsewhere, not just in Kashmir. Preserving this separate identity by legal agreed upon means like Article 370 and other culturally tolerated practices can be a constant thorn in tying Indian parts up and keeping it intact. This will take a few hundred years in the making, but should not make us disheartened in the process. Both the carrot and stick will be needed to achieve this over many generations. Kashmir will be the testing ground of this faith in the Indian Union.

[shiv]

Aditi Phadnis: No two ways in Kashmir


http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ir/408424/

From the above article:

The people of Kashmir just get a tantalising glimpse of all the wonderful things the Centre and the state government have in store for them, only if they would just behave. But nothing sees the light of day. Can they be blamed for believing the government exists only to exploit and suppress them, for feeling disempowered to the point of helplessness?

Omar Abdullah needs support. Rahul Gandhi who said this in Kolkata was only being realistic.

[Karan M]

Then Italian birth is not a bar to becoming Indian? Or is it not a bar to becoming Indic?

Well if your question is not rhetorical then you know the answer already. But you stress on Italian birth - which makes me think, that it was your intent to refer to Sonia Gandhi, then you could have been more direct.

Because whats happening here is that you have come to a conclusion, namely:

That is the crux of the issue in many ways. Kissinger knows zilch and I could rip his views apart, but there is one bit of scary truth in what he says. There is a very definite reluctance among some Hindus to accept some aliens as one of their own. Not all Hindus. Some Hindus. Call these people as "group A". There is another group of Hindus who will accept anyone as their own with few conditions. Call them "group B"

...which is your a conclusion which you have drawn, but not one necessarily the case when it comes to why people may dislike Sonia.

In this case, Sonia Gandhi does not really fall into the category we were discussing above, as being a politician & the heir to the N-G clan, she could be Martian & people would still fall over themselves to be her coterie.

As they say, absolute power, corrupts absolutely.

Furthermore, there are also a bunch of shady allegations about her, including the Bofors issue and Quattrochi, which raises an issue of extra-territorial loyalty.

And therein lies the issue, which is the reason why even the United States, in a supremely practical bit of writing, insists that its penultimate leader be a local born. Schwarzenegger can be more Republican than Bush, but he cant be the Prez.

Plus, there is also the issue about the company she has kept. When surrounded by rabid Hindu baiters like John Dayal and all sorts of others, it really does make one wonder. The other day there was a report about NAAC or some such acronym - it has the who's who of Hindu Baiters of India in it, from Teesta to JD to several others..what is one to think?

Simply put, it is a combination of these factors which would make a person wary. Not just that he/she is Italian.

For instance, would you be wary of this gent, born in Berkeley California?
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/satgurus/bodhinatha/

Now when they were building a temple, you had craftsmen from Tamil Nadu working on it:
http://www.himalayanacademy.com/ssc/hawaii/iraivan/

And I recall pics of some touching his feet, and bowing to him. He could be a dangerous guy but he has had no actions so far to indicate the same.

So clearly, its how a persons actions are, that lead to people coming up with a view of what that person is.

The BJP has given the appearance of attracting and keeping more Group A people
Congress has the appearance of attracting and keeping group B people

Its not as simple as that. I would have made the argument you made above a decade back, but no longer. Having seen the non stop propaganda unleashed by the media vis a vis BJP ruled states or the spin put to the simplest events, its pretty much a done deal.

Its simple, plain and simple conditioning. The Congress has ruled this country for fifty odd years and as such has access to resources that dwarf the BJPs, and it has pretty much the entire education system & indoctrination sewn up. It can call up on a literal who's who of supporters and NGO's, liberal elite, "people like you and me" who speak the lingo, talk the talk, and more importantly, are activists.

Teesta's "exploits" regarding Godhra are well known. She walks free (would you & I?) and she is on SGs panel as an advisor.

No matter what the BJP does, or does not, they will be regarded as communal. Theirs is the original sin for daring to even state that they are a political party, which looks at the interest of Hindus. The reasons are many, but the cards are heavily stacked against the BJP from the word go. Secular India exists in an alternative la-la dimension, where you have educated, Hindus falling over themselves to talk about how ancient Indian epics are mythology or superstition, but then they'll bend over backwards to use the honorific Prophet or other terms for icons belonging to other faiths. Take a look at national papers, and the amount of space dedicated to Kashmir - how many of them are even willing to admit the open bigotry shown by the Valley Kashmiris? Which other country would tolerate what went on in Bengal recently, or have its own leaders engineer massive demographic change for votes? And yet have the populace remain silent - the elite who should be leading the charge?

In other words, even if you get the most sophisticated, erudite, well dressed, word smiths into the BJP, who appear in every TV show with all the right accents/clothes, they will still be called fanatics, nutjobs, extremists because theirs is the original sin, for merely representing Hindu interests which is non secular in the Indian interpretation of the term.

All the Congress has done, is to claim to be secular, which automatically makes it right, A-ok, the party of choice. It dominates the discourse and has its fingers pretty much on all the media there is, the english media that is, which is lapped up by "educated India". Never mind, that in its secular dispensation, the worst communal outrages have occurred, regularly, in order to win electoral gains, and the nation has suffered immeasurably.

I dont know what the solution is, but I am reasonably sure of one thing, that the BJP can employ as many image guys as it wants, but they will still be the target. There are things they can do, but I dont belong to that party, and besides its not like they are going to be browsing this board for tips from our discussion.

[shiv]

No matter what the BJP does, or does not, they will be regarded as communal. Theirs is the original sin for daring to even state that they are a political party, which looks at the interest of Hindus. The reasons are many, but the cards are heavily stacked against the BJP from the word go. Secular India exists in an alternative la-la dimension, where you have educated, Hindus falling over themselves to talk about how ancient Indian epics are mythology or superstition, but then they'll bend over backwards to use the honorific Prophet or other terms for icons belonging to other faiths. Take a look at national papers, and the amount of space dedicated to Kashmir - how many of them are even willing to admit the open bigotry shown by the Valley Kashmiris? Which other country would tolerate what went on in Bengal recently, or have its own leaders engineer massive demographic change for votes? And yet have the populace remain silent - the elite who should be leading the charge?

In other words, even if you get the most sophisticated, erudite, well dressed, word smiths into the BJP, who appear in every TV show with all the right accents/clothes, they will still be called fanatics, nutjobs, extremists because theirs is the original sin, for merely representing Hindu interests which is non secular in the Indian interpretation of the term.

This is a litany of grievances. I am sure perceptive Red Indians and Australian Aborigines might have felt this way before extinction. The world is tough and shows no sympathy for people who pour out their grievances. What is required is taqiyya or pretence or pragmatism or whatever is needed to survive and produce policies that will eventually replace the rampant corruption that our polity represents. Hating a particular party and loving another party is just that - partisan. Nothing more. Being partisan comes as naturally to every one as the ability to pour out grievances.

By "Italian" I mean Sonia Gandhi. Did you have anyone else in mind? Who is "Yuvaraj", exactly?

[munna]

Wonderful discussion folks. So our country is facing one of the biggest debacles in terms of national security in years and here we have a successful "guidance" of discussion towards BJP's strategy in national politics. I would urge people to thwart such "guidance" and "re-education" by focusing the discussion on people responsible for this fiasco. The more they are under spotlight the lesser damage to nation shall take place.
Remember BJP is NOT the issue is failure of GOI==UPA....

[chetak]

Wonderful discussion folks. So our country is facing one of the biggest debacles in terms of national security in years and here we have a successful "guidance" of discussion towards BJP's strategy in national politics. I would urge people to thwart such "guidance" and "re-education" by focusing the discussion on people responsible for this fiasco. The more they are under spotlight the lesser damage to nation shall take place.
Remember BJP is NOT the issue is failure of GOI==UPA....

Game, set and match!!!

We are like that onlee. Sickular Hindoos.

All is about to be lost and we are busy homoing the BJP.

And yet munna ji,

We have forcibly contributed $25 million to our sworn enemies. (they have sworn, not us!!!)

Its like churchill paying hitler's fuel bill while the panzers are advancing.

Jai ho.

[sum]

If the New Delhi grapevine is to be believed, the UPA Government has sounded out Mr Wajahat Habibullah for the job of Governor of Jammu & Kashmir.

From what i heard of Wajahat Habbibullah on TV debates, he sounded like a bigger snake than even the Mufti Sayeed family...

On hearing his line of thought, the first thing that hit me was that if a KM who has been provided with the maximum possible power and responsibility by the Indian state without discrimination is talking the way he is, there is little hope of KMs ever reforming and aligning to the Indian way..

[ramana]

2010 is a landmark year for Indian sub-continent. Its the year India lost more of POK to PRC.

In 1963, Ayub Khan ceded POK areas to PRC by treaty.

In 2010, Zaradri & Kiyanai have ceded Gilgit-Baltistan to PRC without treaty.

IOW PRC has expanded the area under its control from Aksai Chin to G-B becasue it makes it that much more difficult for India to recover POK.

Or putting it differently UPA-2 had its 1962 all over again without a shot being fored and its Intel guys not havign clue except to dust out old reports of PRC presence.

I think B. Raman's article is first strike to blame someone else than the ruling party before people realise its 1962 allover again.

Response by e-mail from someone I trust.

u r not wrong......
will to defend was absent 1962 in indian dna.........and is abiding.....from somnath to ....now

[chetak]

If the New Delhi grapevine is to be believed, the UPA Government has sounded out Mr Wajahat Habibullah for the job of Governor of Jammu & Kashmir.

From what i heard of Wajahat Habbibullah on TV debates, he sounded like a bigger snake than even the Mufti Sayeed family...

On hearing his line of thought, the first thing that hit me was that if a KM who has been provided with the maximum possible power and responsibility by the Indian state without discrimination is talking the way he is, there is little hope of KMs ever reforming and aligning to the Indian way..

We will sustain the maximum damage under the "governorship" of this evil snake.

congress sponsored and GOI subsidised.

[Hari Seldon]

^^^ The Indian constitution explicitly bars a person from one state to ever become the governer of that state. period. So if this snake is kashmiri, there's no way he can ever make J&K guv'ner.

[sum]

Hari saar,

Kashmir native named chief justice of state high court

In a departure from its more than two decades old practice, the Supreme Court has recommended the appointment of Justice Nissar Ahmed Kakru, who hails from Jammu and Kashmir, as the chief justice of the state's high court.

The apex court move comes even as the government has yet to take a final call on the steps it wants to take as part of the confidence building measures for the trouble-torn Kashmir.

The decision was taken by the Supreme Court collegium, of five senior most judges of the apex court headed by Chief Justice S.H. Kapadia, last Thursday.

At present, Justice Kakru is the chief justice of the Andhra Pradesh High Court.

The insiders in the legal fraternity say this departure could not be seen in isolation.

They say the collegium move is an implicit part of the overall initiative, including relaxing of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is planning to take after an all-party meeting Wednesday on handling of the volatile Kashmir situation.

The timing of the development adds credence to the belief that the collegium move was a part of the larger initiative of the prime minister.

The collegium meeting was convened Thursday where the decision was taken to break with the past practice of not allowing a son of the soil from heading the state's high court.

This meeting, which many say was an emergency meeting, decided that Justice Kakru would be the chief justice of the J&K High Court. Consequently the present incumbent, Justice Aftab Hussain Saikia, would be shifted as the chief justice of the Gauhati High Court.

Justice Saikia belongs to Assam. But his going to the Gauhati High Court was more a consequence to accommodate Justice Kakru as head of the J&K High Court.

Soon after the decision on Justice Kakru was taken, the file recommending his transfer was sent to the union law and justice ministry for implementation and orders by the president.

Justice Kakru was appointed the chief justice of the Andhra Pradesh High Court only in February this year.

Don't underestimate the present GoI and its will to implement anything its made up its mind on.... It is after all not a evil, communal GoI unlike the opposition and so, everything it does is for national interest onlee..

[chetak]

Hari saar,

Kashmir native named chief justice of state high court

In a departure from its more than two decades old practice, the Supreme Court has recommended the appointment of Justice Nissar Ahmed Kakru, who hails from Jammu and Kashmir, as the chief justice of the state's high court.

The apex court move comes even as the government has yet to take a final call on the steps it wants to take as part of the confidence building measures for the trouble-torn Kashmir.

The decision was taken by the Supreme Court collegium, of five senior most judges of the apex court headed by Chief Justice S.H. Kapadia, last Thursday.

At present, Justice Kakru is the chief justice of the Andhra Pradesh High Court.

The insiders in the legal fraternity say this departure could not be seen in isolation.

They say the collegium move is an implicit part of the overall initiative, including relaxing of the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is planning to take after an all-party meeting Wednesday on handling of the volatile Kashmir situation.

The timing of the development adds credence to the belief that the collegium move was a part of the larger initiative of the prime minister.

The collegium meeting was convened Thursday where the decision was taken to break with the past practice of not allowing a son of the soil from heading the state's high court.

This meeting, which many say was an emergency meeting, decided that Justice Kakru would be the chief justice of the J&K High Court. Consequently the present incumbent, Justice Aftab Hussain Saikia, would be shifted as the chief justice of the Gauhati High Court.

Justice Saikia belongs to Assam. But his going to the Gauhati High Court was more a consequence to accommodate Justice Kakru as head of the J&K High Court.

Soon after the decision on Justice Kakru was taken, the file recommending his transfer was sent to the union law and justice ministry for implementation and orders by the president.

Justice Kakru was appointed the chief justice of the Andhra Pradesh High Court only in February this year.

Don't underestimate the present GoI and its will to implement anything its made up its mind on.... It is after all not a evil, communal GoI unlike the opposition and so, everything it does is for national interest onlee..

So Shri Wajahat Habibullah, is the next governor.

rajmata or yuvraj as PM??

[abhishek_sharma]

AFSPA an enabling provision, not arbitrary: Army Chief

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 578156.cms

[Singha]

http://sify.com/news/stop-pampering-kas ... eaaib.html

Stop pampering Kashmir's stone throwers and separatists (Article)
2010-09-18 10:30:00

The urge for peace is built into India's psyche and its civilization. An Indian can be heard at any time to be reciting Om Shanti Shanti, as though peace would descend on this troubled planet by the recitation of shlokas. Nevertheless this is what every Indian desires.

It is this Indian urge for peace that is the core problem in the relations that India has with Pakistan. That country is convinced that sooner or later it will be able to get the better of India because of its weakness for peace? There is no scope for peace in Pakistan's ideology of "jihad".

India has fought three wars with its neighbour (1947, 1965 and 1971) all because Pakistan is led to believe that India is a soft state. Even in its defeats the army of Pakistan invariably claims that it can beat India! Thus, it continues to wage a proxy war via terrorism against this country despite having been mauled more than once.

Yes, India wants peace and would like to live in peace with its neighbour, but not at the cost of its territorial integrity. Having made it clear more than once that Kashmir is an integral part of India, what is there to discuss with Pakistan except that the areas of the state still occupied by it - the POK be returned to India. Does India stick to this position firmly?

Where was the need to reopen talks with Pakistan in the wake of its 26/11 commando attacks on Mumbai? That was again a clear sign of weakness by a soft state. It is good gestures like this that make Pakistan more belligerent.

When the Indian leadership keeps harping about its readiness to talk with the separatists or with the stone pelters of Srinagar, what kind of message is it sending to them? India's leadership knows well that it cannot under any circumstances discuss cessation of any Indian territory. Or, are there leaders who think they can do so and be able to face Parliament?

The all-party delegation that is to visit Kashmir gives the stone pelters and seperatists yet another occasion to insult India. You can be sure that none of them are going to take notice of the visit by this delegation to Srinagar. If anything, they will feel encouraged to carry on with their policy of challenging the might of the Indian state.

Yet another issue that messes around Kashmir is the desire of India to seek friendship with the United States. It would be nice to strengthen that, but the US wants to build a strange strategic relationship with India. No one has till today explained to the nation as to what that strategic relationship is supposed to mean.

India's leadership fought hard to protect its independent foreign policy during the era of Cold War. Is India's leadership preparing to compromise that policy while developing 'strategic relations' with the United States? It is time that the people of India are told in clear terms as to what it means.

The mess in Kashmir is partly the result of the pressure that the United States and its allies have been putting on India to get the cooperation of Pakistan in their Afghanistan operations. It is this confusion that encourages the stone throwing mobs and the Hurriyat to defy the authority of the Government. The people who seek independence or separation from India need to be tried for treason and sent to prison for their crimes against the state. In the midst of all this din and stone throwing, it is forgotten that a minority of "Sunni" Muslims in the valley leads the protestors. They do NOT represent the vast majority of the people of the state of Jammu and Kashmir who are peace loving and want to carry on with their lives.

The stone throwing mobsters and the Hurriyat leaders observe a stony silence about the plight of the people of Pakistan occupied territories of the state of Jammu and Kashmir. There have been massive human rights violations in Gilgit, yet the ongoing agitation there hardly gets a mention in the media. It is because, unlike in Srinagar, the media is not allowed into Gilgit or other parts of the Pakistan occupied Kashmir to report on the unrest there. And now, there are reports of the Chinese Army being present in Gilgit.

The nuclear deal with the United States is very important for India, but we need not get involved with the AfPak policy of the United States. It is time that India's leadership, as it did in the past, tells the United States that it cannot allow Pakistan to meddle in Kashmir.

All this having been said, it is time to restore peace and development in the state of Jammu and Kashmir. The current turmoil there has been created by a confused Indian policy, which mixes up Indo-Pak and Indo-US relations with Kashmir. The people of the state must know and be convinced that they are and will continue to be an integral part of India. It is important that this is reiterated to the stone throwing mobsters and the Hurriyat.

It is necessary that the central government begin to correct whatever wrongs have been done in the state of Jammu and Kashmir in the past. The state must enjoy every democratic right as enshrined in the Constitution of India. If the people want the restoration of special position that was given to the state, so be it. But protect the rights of other ethnic and religious groups in the state.

The only thing that is negotiable with Pakistan on Kashmir is the return of the territories of the erstwhile state of Jammu and Kashmir still occupied by it. Involve the people of the state in getting its integrity restored. They should be as much involved as the rest of India is seeking justice for the suffering people of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir.

The Government in New Delhi has many battles to fight elsewhere in the country. Maoists have been allowed to become a big threat to the country only because of a similar confused policy. Yet another disease that continues to plague India is the hydra-headed monster of corruption.

Once the leadership in New Delhi clears up the muddled thinking it has on so many issues, including on the agitation in Srinagar by stone throwers, then we can be sure of peace emerging in the country.

The Government needs to stop being a mute spectator in Srinagar. It is not fair on the security forces to be exposed to the attacks of the stone throwers at will. The policy of pampering or molly coddling the stone throwers and separatists must end now. By Prem Prakash (ANI)

Attn: News Editors/News Desks: Prem Prakash is a senior journalist.

[saket]

The appeasement brigade of the Khangress including Dr dhimmi is in full throttle, AFSPA may have been temporarily blocked but other sops are on their way.
I think there is also interplay with the upcoming Ayodhya verdict in which I am afraid the Janmasthan might be sacrificed to appease the riotous bigots in Srinagar.

[Singha]

people in north east are asking openly what is so special about srinagar valley they continue to get 1000s of crores in payouts, while vital projects languish in NE for lack of patronage from the delhi durbar.

[Juggi G]

CRPF Gets 'Chilli Grenade' to Tackle Stone Pelters in J&K
The Indian Express

Hope this Does the Trick

If Not, then there is always the 'Chili Danda' up the Pooper of Party Poopers, one of the Weapons of Policing Forces of Asia & Pacific and African Continents.