Understanding the Great Game and role of India & Asian stability

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 24 Jun 2010 01:11

SanjayM garu

Our hearts are in the same place...

I am worried to give additional ammo to our *less netas. They are already waiting for the settlement of Palastine issue as they developed imaginary == between that issue and JK.

If you add this CAR re-consolidation or whatever we want to call it, they sit pretty on their bottoms and hope CIA/NATO to deliver Balochistan, Sindh, Pakthunkwa etc, which will never happen.

This CAR issue is US/NATO doing. All these guys know is starting a fire, and they don't know/care to clean the mess. Their ideologies and strategies are born to increase entropy not the otherway round.

All their geopolitics is about creating chaos out of order; the farther the chaos from themselves, the better for them.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 24 Jun 2010 09:59

SwamyG wrote:While it is the nature of jingoes to want more out of desi leaders and desh, look at how some others see us:
Look at the nation of India. They produced an incredible, transformative leader by the name of Mohandas Gandhi. Yes, my discussion is overly simplistic, but you know your way around the Web to find more detailed articles. Gandhi not only brought political independence to India, but also gifted the world with his humane, non-violent philosophy. The result of his work made peaceful methods for co-existence attractive, mainstream. Of course, even though Gandhi brought political independence to India, they still did not have economic viability, which is equally important for prosperity and peace. That process took many more decades. But as India progressed in their ruling philosophies, so did the general attractiveness of their culture. Other nations wanted to emulate them. This is a critical element of soft power, i.e. using cultural mores to heal rifts. The natural, forward progression would be that through political, economic and especially cultural dissemination of ideas, peace would ensue. Here is a video of Shashi Tharoor, a member of the Indian Parliament, that so clearly outlines the benefits of soft power:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EiTrl0W1QrM
Source: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2010/6/18/124118/689

Swamy,

That is the problem. We get high marks on these Gora report cards as long as we follow this "soft-power"/cultural dissemination/Gandhi-vadi/Panchsheel/co-existence path exclusively.

Deviate from it, and we are loudly and instantly demonized as dangerous Hindootvavadis who won't give up our dangerous nuclear ambitions, who won't "solve" our problems with an insecure, victimized Pakistan by giving up Kashmir to them, who won't let Shashi Tharoor bring his impeccable (and superior) internationalist perspective to the resolution of Indian problems, etc. etc.

What you have pointed out here with that video is nothing but a facet of the Great Game in seeking to redefine India as a passive receptacle for the intrigues of the West. Our narrative is hijacked and wrested from us by these apparently Gandhi-adoring Westerners... and we mistake it for genuine admiration.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 24 Jun 2010 19:57

In case folks are forgetting this thread is to dicuss events from an Indian point of view.The Internet has numerous forums to discuss other points of view....

BBC World service has a two part segment on Tiger vs Dragon, the story of rise of India and China :

Tiger vs Dragon

Please go thru it and discuss what the report is about and why it is being aired and by whom?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 24 Jun 2010 20:20

prad wrote:
wow.....if it was the CIA, then the commentary would be completely different. but with KGB, i suppose applauding them for good torture skills isn't that hypocritical.

That is the reality.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 07 Jul 2010 20:10

We have to re-imagine Olaf Caroe's buffer states theory for India. The new buffers are Balochistan and Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. After the US draw down in Af-Pak and consolidation of Taliban in Afghanistan, these two areas will be the new buffers and become a supreme national interest for India. Instead of imagining the whole of TSP as a unit, we should consider Pakjab as the core of that state and the rest as its peripehry.
So turning their periphery into our buffers should be a strategic goal.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Jul 2010 01:40

ramana wrote:I said in another thread that throughout India history it is marked with material oppulence coupled with polticial impotence for the whole historical period regardless of who is the dominant power elite.

X-posted...

surinder wrote:Please note, NA will not be ceded to PRC. PRC will not assert soverignety on NA. It will merely declare this area as its protectorate. I am pretty confident of this scenario playing. I am sure PRC has already war-gamed the scenario. PRC's has in all wars with TSP, tried to make life difficult for India and limit its elbow room. For India there does not exist any war with TSP which does not involve PRC as a calculation. In fact, I beleive the recent attempts by PRC to humiliate India are directly related to squeeze India because they think India has reduced pressure on the Western front. It is designed to convey to India that cooling on the Western front (TSP) will compensated by heating on the Eastern & Northern.

All is not hopeless: There is a way out of this chakraviyu: It is to stand up and fight. On ther other hand, there is no solution to the problem if all India wants is to avoid pain (which is India's main concern, by and large). If PRC declares NA its protectorate, India should challenge it and be ready for a MOAW (mother of all waars). If it wins, it will have a great future and great peace. If it looses (or does nto fight) then it is will continue on its current course of shrinking. I am afraid India will choose the latter path.

Poet Iqbal had said in an Urdu couplet: Lamho ne galti ki, sadiyon ne sazaa payi. Xlation: Mistakes were made by "seconds", punishment was endured by "centuries". The critical mistake of India to take NA and assert the borders of J&K in 1947, 48, 65, 71 has cost us dear. We will pay for it for a very very very long time.

From orbat...

Pakistan, China plan rail link It will be about 1000-km long and cross the Karakorums, with its alignment similar to the highway. Having built a rail line to Tibet, the Chinese have gathered the experience needed to tame the Karakorums. Its different terrain and all that, but once you get a rail line built at 4000-meters, climbing up from a few hundred meters above sea level, you basically have what you need to build any high-altitude line, no matter how rough the terrain.

A far sighted post from Surinder. I was sceptical about this happening but looks like it is becoming closer to reality. PRC is directly coming to the maidan to shore up it's weakining proxy. Their Generals are becoming overconfident like the Kaiser after Bismarck (Deng Xiaoping)

Will these developments lead to unravelling of PRC like the USSR???? time will tell.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Jul 2010 01:48

ramana wrote:We have to re-imagine Olaf Caroe's buffer states theory for India. The new buffers are Balochistan and Northern Alliance in Afghanistan. After the US draw down in Af-Pak and consolidation of Taliban in Afghanistan, these two areas will be the new buffers and become a supreme national interest for India. Instead of imagining the whole of TSP as a unit, we should consider Pakjab as the core of that state and the rest as its peripehry.
So turning their periphery into our buffers should be a strategic goal.

I had asked a similar question fromWest's POV in Pakistan thread. What piece of Pakistan real estate is most valuable for Western interests....IMO it could be Balochistan.

What is west's interest in letting PRC gaining access to Indian ocean through Pakistan. I cannot think of any reason. For this reason they may sit and watch India-PRC scrimmage for POK and NA while munching Popcorn.

For India will secure western interests by working to deny PRC access to Baloch ports without having to lift a finger.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Jul 2010 01:58

Continuing on core-periphery vs core-buffers, we in India have to realize our periphery is aleinated and occupied by outside interests as shackles to constrain India. We need to own and control our geography in order to guide our tryst with destiny.

IG shattered one shackle but others were quickly placed.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Jul 2010 02:20

Paul wrote:
Pakistan, China plan rail link It will be about 1000-km long and cross the Karakorums, with its alignment similar to the highway. Having built a rail line to Tibet, the Chinese have gathered the experience needed to tame the Karakorums. Its different terrain and all that, but once you get a rail line built at 4000-meters, climbing up from a few hundred meters above sea level, you basically have what you need to build any high-altitude line, no matter how rough the terrain.

Then the Chinese know something I don't, that it is quite easy to blow up a railway line, and if it is 1000 km long, then it is even easier.

How difficult would it be, to get some of the Taliban to do it, or the Gilgitians who are pissed off at Pakistan. Northern Areas is Indian territory de-jure, and we will be fully in our rights to go do it.

Best would be when some high Chinese functionary is travelling on it.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 10 Jul 2010 02:24

Blowing up communication lines is easier said than done.

In Balochistan Pipelines are blown up regularly by Baloch nationalists but still gas is pumped to Karachi. NATO is able to get fuel to Afghanistan through Taliban infested areas.

With intensive patrolling, the risks can be controlled and with money changing hands, it comes down further.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 10 Jul 2010 02:35

How about blowing a train when it is passing over the line using a big bada boom?

There are always bigger bumbs, plantable by better trained people.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jul 2010 03:42

Rail_link over Karakorums !!! Its much more seismically active than the south-eastern end of the Tibetan plateau used as exit by the PRC-Tibet line.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 12 Jul 2010 00:39

PRC cannot secure it's own backyard and it wants to muscle into the IOR????

Several months ago there was a small piece in NPR on US moving more nuke subs to the pacific ocean.....

PRC generals and Admirals are true idiots in the mould of the Kaiser who refused to heed Deng's wise counsel.

http://defensetech.org/2010/07/09/u-s-s ... /#comments

A lot of messaging going on in the Western Pacific, by both sides. We’ve pointed to the recent China’s PLA Navy live fire exercises in the East China Sea.

Now, we learn from Time’s Mark Thompson that three former strategic missile submarines converted to carry Tomahawk cruise missiles (SSGNs) surfaced on the same day, June 28, in the Philippine’s Subic Bay, in Pusan, South Korea and at the naval base on Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean. Each converted boomer holds up to 154 Tomahawk cruise missiles.

As Thompson writes, the alarm bells must have sounded that day in Beijing:

“In all, the Chinese military awoke to find as many as 462 new Tomahawks deployed by the U.S. in its neighborhood. “There’s been a decision to bolster our forces in the Pacific,” says Bonnie Glaser, a China expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. “There is no doubt that China will stand up and take notice.”

Of course U.S. officials denied that any messaging was intended, but they did make sure news of the SSGN deployments showed up in the Hong Kong based South China Morning Post, on July 4; the same day some analysts expected China to test its DF-21D anti-ship ballistic missile.

RIMPAC, the “Rim of the Pacific” war games also began on Wednesday off Hawaii. For all the attention focused on the Levant and the Gulf, its good to see these encouraging signs that at least some in the military understand that the real strategic competition of this century will play out in the Western Pacific.

Don’t miss Craig Hooper’s excellent post on how to turn the Navy’s surface ships into conventional missile carrying strike ships equivalent to the SSGNs.

Read more: http://defensetech.org/2010/07/09/u-s-s ... z0tP6G3fvn
Defense.org

Add to this the blue water navies of SoKo, Japan and pocket sized deployments of Singaopore, Vietnam, and Malasiya. PRC will truely upto it's neck in trouble should trouble break out in the western pacific.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 12 Jul 2010 06:35

they sent a lot of weapons, but will they use it.

i doubt it.

its just a PR move.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2010 20:08

X-post..
"SSridhar"

Call for China-India initiative for Pakistan's Stability

A senior member of the Chinese Foreign Ministry's Advisory Group has proposed that China and India cooperate for the stability of Pakistan in the present circumstances.

The Ministry's Foreign Policy Advisory Group Member, Wu Jianmin, told TheHindu here his intention was to “present this idea to the Chinese government in due course.” He said this on the sidelines of a conference on “the role of the media in India-China relations,” organised by the Singapore-based Institute of Southeast Asian Studies and its Nalanda Sriwijaya Centre, the National University of Singapore, and the Lee Kuan Yew School of Public Policy. The participants included India's former Ambassador to China, C. V. Ranganathan, and author Sunanda K. Datta-Ray.

On whether the idea of a China-India initiative for the stability of Pakistan would at all fly, Mr. Wu, formerly a career diplomat, said: “The rise of Asia requires peace and stability in this region. So, you can see that China's interest and the Indian interest coincide. … We [in China] do not regard Pakistan as a counterweight to India. It is not propaganda: you [only] have to put yourself in China's shoes. .... For the first time since 1840, we have a chance to modernise China. To achieve our goal, what we need is peace abroad and stability at home.”

“Trust-building is now going on between China and India, and our common interests keep growing in the economic area, in trade and in other areas.” Despite “some obstacles,” the two countries “at the leadership level, are [also] very clear that they need each other.”

About the risk that Islamabad might see any China-India initiative as a ploy to “fix Pakistan,” he said: “We [China] can tell our Pakistani friends. At the same time, India and Pakistan have their own channel of communication.” On what he termed as “rumours” relating to the China-Pakistan moves in the civil nuclear domain, he said Beijing “abides by the international rules and will not go beyond them.”

Quite a change in PRC attitudes. He is promising a few things if India does somethings. No bad idea to follow up. Will post in the US-PRC India thread too.

We are seeing from PRC first time a ref to 1840 which is the year of the Opium Wars when the EIC forced open China and imposed drugs culture on China. A first acknowledgement that there is a need for Asian stability and that Asia does not have to have a European conflict future. If PRC and Inda come to erms then TSP will pipe down and become irrelevant to the Great Game.

Mr. Wu's background:

Wu Jianmin elected BIE president
Date:12/12/2003

The 134th Member Nations Congress of the Bureau of International Expositions (BIE) meeting in Paris in December, 2003, elected the Chinese Ambassador to France, Wu Jianmin, as its new president.

Wu Jianmin was born in Chongqing and was a member of the Chinese embassy to the United Nations from 1979 to 1983.

He joined the Foreign Affairs Association of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs European Office in 1983 and in 1985 was general secretary of the Policy Research Office of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs until 1989 when he became Chinese embassy councillor resident at the United Nations.

From 1991 to 1994 he was Chinese embassy councillor and CEO resident in Belgium.

He was Director of the Information Office of the Ministry of Foreign Affair and spokesman of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in 1994 and 1995.

In 1996 he was appointed Chinese Ambassador to Holland and in 1998 was the Chinese Ambassador resident in the Geneva Office of the United Nations and Ambassador to other international organisations in Switzerland.

In 2003 he received his present posting as Chinese Ambassador to France.

Mr. Wu is also principal of the China Foreign Affairs College and a deputy committee member of the State Foreign and Economic Committee of the Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference.

Link:
http://www.expo2010.cn/expo/expoenglish ... 35887.html

So one of PRC's Foreign Policy mandarins.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 12 Jul 2010 21:41

The economic growth and future economic engagement will force every player to reevaluate their old positions. First UQ then PRC and USA and eventually Iran which has not been acting in good faith. Iranian capitulation will herald the "old" era of Indic influence in near abroad.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jul 2010 21:56

Prem right on cue, Tribune from Chandigarh writes in op-ed 12 July 2010

India’s interests in Iran
It’s tough time for diplomacy

The six agreements signed between New Delhi and Tehran on Friday after a two-day meeting of the India-Iran Joint Commission can go a long way in enhancing cooperation between the two countries in different areas. India and Iran can gain a lot through their joint efforts on a number of issues over which they have no clash of interests. They have convergence of views to a considerable extent on Afghanistan. India has to find a way to accept the Iranian invitation to invest in Chahbahar port, as this will help in protecting India’s interests in Afghanistan. There is a plan to link up the strategically located port with Afghanistan’s Zaranj-Delaram highway, built with Indian assistance. There is also need to increase the volume of Indo-Iranian bilateral trade, which currently stands at $15 billion. Better trade relations between the two countries will hopefully enable them to strengthen their ties in various other areas.

Of course, there is a major handicap owing to the economic sanctions imposed on Iran by the UN Security Council following Tehran’s refusal to cap its controversial nuclear programme. The fourth round of sanctions announced recently cover a significant Indo-Iranian joint venture, Iran-o-Hind, which has been used for crude oil imports by India from Iran. India, which gets 12 per cent of its crude oil requirement from Iran, will now have to look for an alternative shipping arrangement for the purpose. India has to honour its international obligations, but at the same time it has to ensure that its interests in Iran are safe.

Despite the realisation that the Iran-Pakistan-India gas pipeline will help New Delhi considerably in meeting its fast growing energy demand, India has so far not been able to join the venture. It is not only the security factor that is coming in the way. The unending US-Iranian tussle is also there. It is really a tough time for Indian diplomacy. India’s interests lie in sticking to its old stand on the Iranian nuclear issue — as there is a humanitarian angle to it — that harsh sanctions will mean punishing the Iranian masses, who have nothing to do with the policies of the Ahmadinejad government. Only dialogue and diplomacy should be used for settling the nuclear crisis.

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 13 Jul 2010 02:57

The key Indian interest vis a vis the PRC and west is to have 20+ years of uninterrupted growth.

Limited wars of Kargil type can be handled and may even be desirable as India can bring it's local superiority to fore. Even 10 years ago Kargil could not put a damper on Indian economy, but a full scale war like 1971 will certainly scale back growth for a few years.

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 13 Jul 2010 03:55

dealing for peace is coming to the forefront. IPKF (Iraqi PKF) makes sense for several reasons.

pak can be handled saying that india is not a threat as they are occupied elsewhere.
kashmir will be handled as usual
china can be handled based on the UN charter
USA gets to totally move out of iraq on a high note and focus in AfPak
iran -- we are engaging with them again. there will be some agreement on this nuke tamasha without any serious flare-up is the BRF consensus

we will have to spill blood regardless. better to spill it in some neutral endeavour and UN money.

gurus -- correct me if i am wrong in my line of thinking.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 12 Aug 2010 23:34

Maybe of interest. Haven't read it as yet. Somewhat old- 2004

India’s Race with Destiny and China by David Van Praagh

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 28 Aug 2010 19:40

Posting it here, as the traditional meaning of the great game, ought to change.

The New Battle for Sri Lanka

With the LTTE out of the picture and Sri Lanka growing stronger, India struggles to maintain its relevance in the strategically crucial Indian Ocean nation. But so far, China is ahead of the game, Harsh V Pant comments for ISN Security Watch.
...
Colombo matters because the Indian Ocean matters. The ‘great game’ of this century will be played on the waters of the Indian Ocean. Though India’s location gives it great operational advantages in the Indian Ocean, it is by no means certain that New Delhi is in a position to hold on to its geographic advantages. China is rapidly catching up and its ties with Sri Lanka are aimed at expanding its profile in this crucial part of the world. Indian policymakers realize that unless they are more proactive they might end up losing this ‘game’ for good

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 28 Aug 2010 22:15

China..India – And or Versus

What we hear least about is the tangled weave of national interests that means China courts Pakistan as a proxy for it’s own competition with India, to the point where Pakistani experts concede that, given a choice between alliance with the US or China, Pakistan’s military will choose China “every day of the week, and twice on Fridays”.
This relationship is at the back of a lot of Chinese man oeuvres in the region to keep America and India at bay.

It has endeavoured to develop extensive land routes through Central Asia, but these are inadequate. It is a matter of time before China will make its presence more visible in the Indian Ocean.

China pretty much owns Pakistan and will own Afghanistan within a decade .

But the overall aim of Chinese sub-continent policy, and its alliance with Pakistan, is to cut off India’s overland access to Europe, the Middle East and Asia while enhancing China’s own.That’s why Afghanistan is the battleground for these geopolitical rivals. Between Pakistan and China, India is effectively blocked from land routes into the continent, effectively an island should its rivals wish it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Sep 2010 00:58

^^^ Very insightful article. And written about the time of PRC troops being discovered in Gilgit baltistan area. PRC rolling into Gilgit-Baltistan has effectively made it much more difficult to recover POK.

UPA -2 govt has effectively been handed 1962 redux without a shot being fired. IOW PRC has enlarged its area under control from Aksai Chin to now Gilgit Baltistan.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 18 Sep 2010 01:02

This is for the transnational companies who want to make the largest profit in the world.

They need Iran, Pakistan and China to cooperate.

China oil pipelines
http://www.google.com/images?rlz=1C1GGL ... 07&bih=711

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Sep 2010 02:47

X-Posted from Pak Occupied Kashmir News and Discussion Thread

Prem wrote:It might be difficult to recover COK today but this also provide excuse and oppertunity in the future. Aint India Danda gonna increase in size ? If Indian leadership has the brain, balls and guts , they will test if PRC willing to loose 100 years of progress in exchange for GB/NA... in future not now. Once the bluff is called , the onus to save face will fall on PRC. 62 brought us to 71 and 2010 might do same as India has no choice but to erase Durnad line.

PoK is important for PRC for three reasons

As conduit for Oil & Gas to 'Western China'
As supply route to China's Navy Base in Gwadar, at the mouth of the Persian Gulf
To support Pakistan to neutralize India

All three goals of PRC can be accomplished without having to fight it out with PRC in PoK. PoK would not help in securing the three goals. But we have to act with resolve, if India wants to put a stop to this.

It is time to take down Pakistan. India needs to align with two allies - the Pushtuns & the Baluchis and take Pakistan down.

India needs to get Baluchistan under non-Pakjabi, non-Chinese control, i.e. either Baluchi control or if that is not stable then to extend Indian protectorate umbrella over Baluchistan. Baluchi and Indian forces can throw Pakjab out of Baluchistan and Gwadar. With no border to Iran from Pakjab, China does not reach the Pars Gas Deposits, nor can it establish a Navy base in Gwadar. First two missions solved by hitting Pakistan in Baluchistan.

The third mission requires the fire of the Pushtuns. They can destabilize the whole area like hell. Pakjab will be of no use to the Chinese when Indians put pressure from one side, and the Pushtuns from the other. India has friends in Afghanistan, and those friends can buy the cooperation of the Pushtuns in Pakistan.

Who knows China may then just lose interest in PoK and go back to Beijing.

India CAN do this if we come to the realization that not all things can be solved by negotiations, and India does not belong in a straitjacket.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 18 Sep 2010 03:11

The way to come back in the race is by taking down all the allies of China in the region, be they the Pakjabis, Rajapakses, Myanmar Junta Generals or Khaleda Zia. All need to taken down, and mercilessly.

What is the use of strengthening the walls of our fort when the enemy has surrounded us, and boxed us in this fortress. Just having a strong military is not enough. We need a pro-active policy.

Anantha · Post by **Anantha** » 18 Sep 2010 05:08

One option is to lease bases in the chinese rim. Bases may be possible at Kyrgestan, Tajikistan (this is already on), Mongolia, Bhutan, Laos/Vietnam, South Korea, Taiwan and even Northern Myanmar if we pay enough money. All these bases will serve for a 2nd strike capacity and should keep China off balance as a potential mischief source.
This way we can store Nukes but at the same time need not hand over any Nukes to anyone which is a concern to the west
One of Chinese enemies South Korea/Vietnam/ needs to be turned into a 100% ally of India and to go nuclear formally.
Another approach is formally dispute Chinese claim over Taiwan and Strategically place nukes there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Sep 2010 08:53

Rajesh Bandhu
The first thought came to mind after reading about Chinese presence in POK was that it has made Baluchi freedom absolutively imperative now . I did post that thought last week. Now SS writing about Durand line negation and aligning with Pushtun aspiration has send every one on head scratching spree but again we here on the Forum have been shouting about it for many years. I think your assesment is right on the mark. Baluchi and Pathan both will be getting their rightful due to rule the area and put Poakjabis in their place. PRC can sink Billions in infrastructure but no ally or friend of Poak Fauj gonna be kindly blooked upon by both these tribal folks. Poaks just signed their disintergation warrants. Instead of 20-25 years , the process will now be acclerated and advance Poak-end by a decade or so. Aint we live in exciting times, who know see might see history in making right infront of us . Fun part is our capacity to distrupt Chin-Poak love making will keep growing every years, PRc might have to imitate Arab and do azl in the end game.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 19 Sep 2010 13:07

These are the occurrence of events:

1) Iran proposes IPI pipeline
2) America for some reason is not happy. They offer india a deal which it cannot refuse - the nuke deal.
>The fallout
3) India backs out of IPI
4) IPI becomes IPC

It would be foolish to assume that unkil did not foresee this. Or more probably, created the grounds for it's possibility.

I echo what i said on the managing china thread before. Both the maratha and the sikh empire needs to re-established and made nuke capable. No centralised control. Hence, fall of one empire should not automatically mean the fall of all empires. All empires need to independent as before pre-islamic india. The idea of princely states were the reason bharat withstood the islamic invasion and the british raj. The day we become a "nation" as in the concept, we shot ourselves in the foot.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Sep 2010 17:54

nvishal wrote:I echo what i said on the managing china thread before. Both the maratha and the sikh empire needs to re-established and made nuke capable. No centralised control. Hence, fall of one empire should not automatically mean the fall of all empires. All empires need to independent as before pre-islamic india. The idea of princely states were the reason bharat withstood the islamic invasion and the british raj. The day we become a "nation" as in the concept, we shot ourselves in the foot.

It was the stupid princely states that always allowed the foreigners in!

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 19 Sep 2010 18:06

It doesn't need to be about king queens or royal families.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 19 Sep 2010 18:20

RajeshA wrote:
nvishal wrote:I echo what i said on the managing china thread before. Both the maratha and the sikh empire needs to re-established and made nuke capable. No centralised control. Hence, fall of one empire should not automatically mean the fall of all empires. All empires need to independent as before pre-islamic india. The idea of princely states were the reason bharat withstood the islamic invasion and the british raj. The day we become a "nation" as in the concept, we shot ourselves in the foot.
It was the stupid princely states that always allowed the foreigners in!

I guess, vishal ji is talking about politically "restructuring and reorganizing" the Indian subcontinent..

After all, ROI is not India. ROI is one of the parts of India, the rump-state of India.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Sep 2010 18:38

nvishal wrote:It doesn't need to be about king queens or royal families.

So you want that Indians waste their time in petty squabbles amongst the various Indian Empires!

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Sep 2010 18:48

Acharya wrote:

This is for the transnational companies who want to make the largest profit in the world.

They need Iran, Pakistan and China to cooperate.

How about India getting into this pipe dream provided POK comes under Indian rule, as an insurance to officially get into IPIC and PIC pipedream projects? This way everyone will have insurance -

Pakistan can earn revenues from both IPIC and PIC pipelines.
India will have the PIC as the insurance if Pakistan plays games in IPIC arena
PRC can smoke its own pipe over land as an alternative to IOR

win-win-win-win in my opinion.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Sep 2010 19:46

Ramya,

The pipe line is a pipe dram onleee. Why, just look at the map. Traversing through the NWFP Balochistan and teh POK. The most unstable regions of TSP. Yet the people are hoping that the pipelines will not be targeted?

As far India is concerned we need to be independent of any on land pipeline as long as TSP is not pacified.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Sep 2010 19:56

Pratyush,

I too call them Pipedreams. But wouldn't it be wise to advance our interests based on those pipe dreams, until they become pipelines?

Isn't it unwise to postpone things forever?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Sep 2010 20:05

RamaY, it is extremely unwise to put the Indian LOC in the hands of the Paki nut jobs.

Also if the PRC feels that it can control the badlands I say let them try. It is their blood and treasure and let them bleed.

I see the badlands as an opportunity to draw and defeat the RATS and the PRC. But for that to happen India must not have a stake in the pipe dreams.

Cause post pacification of badlands the pipelines can always be extended to India.

JMT

Corrected you name sorry for the mistake.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 19 Sep 2010 20:08

^
First of all my handle is RamaY nor Ramya.

That is short-sightedness. These regions became badlands ONLY AFTER we allowed external control over them.

As long as other's control our periphery regions, we will be boxed into our core areas, that too at the mercey of external forces.

You cannot pacify the badlands unless they are in your control.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Sep 2010 20:17

The regaining of control is some thing that even I am after. But the road for that runs through Pakjab. We must actively plot for its downfall which in turn will result in the road becoming open. However, that is still in the future. At present the reality is that TSP is not going any where. After it failure as an organised state we start imposing order on not only Pakjab but the badlands as well.

Till then I stand by my opinion that let PRC spend their blood and treasure on controlling the badlands

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 19 Sep 2010 20:40

Pratyush wrote:The pipe line is a pipe dram onleee. Why, just look at the map. Traversing through the NWFP Balochistan and teh POK. The most unstable regions of TSP. Yet the people are hoping that the pipelines will not be targeted?

RamaY wrote:I too call them Pipedreams. But wouldn't it be wise to advance our interests based on those pipe dreams, until they become pipelines?

Isn't it unwise to postpone things forever?

For India it is almost impossible to get sufficient assurance that Pakistan would not allow politics to enter the operations of Iran-Pakistan-India pipeline. They can always use any pretext to blackmail India.

India would have found the money to build the pipeline through Pakistan. It is good that we did not. PRC has got an old understanding with TSP. After India had invested sufficient money and built the pipeline, Pakistan would have brought up some issue or another and the project would have stopped, perhaps even before a fart of gas had moved through the pipeline. Then they would have waited a year, and let PRC use the built pipeline to pump gas to Western China.

India would have been an ass. It is good that we did not fall for the trick.

We know that there are fractures in Pakistan that are becoming ever more visible, and Baluchistan and Pushtunistan could break out, if provided some help. The part of Pakistan, we have given little interest till now is Sindh.

With the IPI, India could entice Sindh as well to break ranks and go for Azadi. If an Iran-Pakistan-China Pipeline is built it would go through a depopulated or heavily subdued Baluchistan and Pakjab and then through PoK to Western China. Sindh gets nothing out of it. But if an Iran-Baluchistan-Sindh-India (IBSI) Pipeline is built, Sindh does get transit fees, and they can keep them.

Sindh must know that in the new Pakistan they will be getting no share of the bounty - Whatever China, USA, Relief-Aid money goes to Pakistan would be snatched up by Pakistani Army and Pakjab. Nothing for Sindh. So if the Sindhi Elites and Sindhi Middle Class still want to stay solvent, they will have to look for new ways.

If Sindh agrees to a partnership with India, then India could also divert some of the waters of the Indus to a canal and provide them with water and they will not be dependent on Pakjab anymore.

Sindh provides us with Gas and we provide Sindh with Water.

******

Also posted in the Managing Pakistan's Failure Thread.