J & K news and discussion

[shiv]

I want to make a few comments about J&K - mostly my personal impressions. If there are errors - I would like to be told.

Jammu and Kashmir is one of the states of the Indian Union. What is special abut it is not its religious demography but the following
1) Its status is disputed by Pakistan which has spent much effort in creating mayhem in the state via proxies
2) The state comes under a special article of the Indian constitution - Article 370

But despite these differences, J&K remains an Indian state. That means that it has a democratically elected state government whose duties to the state include development, governance, education and law and order. Like any other state the central government (the GoI) is technically only involved in defence, foreign affairs and a few other aspects and is in no way concerned with the day to day running of the state which is the job of the state government.

In any Indian state, including J&K, if you have a democratically elected state government that government can be brought down only in 3 ways as per the constitution (to my knowledge)
1) The government completes its term and a new government has to be formed after due elections
2) The state opposition party/parties manage to pass a successful no confidence motion
3) The center steps in under severe exigencies and imposed "governor's rule"

The current troubles in Kashmir are clearly being instigated by someone. But there probably also has been misrule by the state government led by Omar Abdullah leading to some anger. That anger has probably played into the hands of separatists and we have seen unruly mobs attacking schools, hospitals and public property and people discharging their lawful duties. As fas as I know, it is the responsibility of the state government led by Omar Abdullah to control the violence, and ask help from the center if need be.

Omar Abdullah has made some absurd requests - asking for AFSPA to be repealed - possible as a panic poplulist measure. But the question is - if Omar Abdullah has not done the right things should his government be brought down? As per the constitution he has not completed his term. And the opposition have not asked for a voe of confidence. That puts the onus on the central government to dissolve the government if that is desirable or necessary.

What did separatists in Pakistan and Kashmir hate about J&K:
1) relative calm
2) democratic government from democratic elections
3) Armed forces playing a secondary role

What do the separatists want:
1) mayhem in J&K
2) Removal of the democratic government as an "admission" by India that it was a a puppet of the Hindu fundamentalist center
3) Armed forces to start playing a central role where they can be provoked - leading to deaths of protestors leading to the death-grievance-death cycle that is essential for anarchy. The security forces and India can then eb blamed for human rights abuses.

Under the circumstances would it be the best thing to bring down the Omar Abdullah government - or the leave him in the hot seat and do his best/worst while he is supported in bringing the separatists under control? Is there any need for Indians to panic and act panicky? I don't think so.

The fact that J&K has a legitimate democratically elected government is a plus point that cannot be thrown away. The opposition PDP is snake oil. Why upset the applecart just because of stone throwing yahoos?

[jagga]

Kashmir will always be a part of India: Farooq Abdullah

Farooq Abdullah has said that Kashmir has been and will always remain a part of India.

Abdullah said, "Many innocent children died (during the recent unrest in Kashmir). Many of our security persons got hurt. But that is the price India has to pay if it has to remain united. Those forces that work to divide us, those forces that talk of independent Kashmir and those forces that talk of joining Pakistan, we have to defeat them at all cost."
He also called for the revoking of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act where it had become redundant.

Abdullah said its withdrawal was the only way to restore peace and normalcy in the state.

"The AFSPA should be removed where there is no need for it. In the border areas, you have to keep it because we have danger from the neighbours, but where it is not needed, not necessary, gradually it should be lifted from there," he added.

He also condemned the wave of unabated stone-pelting protests in the Kashmir valley.

"There are crazy people who think that they would separate Kashmir from India by pelting stones. They have brought bombs and guns in the past, but India never cowed down. I promise you that even this time India will not be defeated and they will not succeed. They are just digging their own graves by propelling violence," he added.

Good to see atleast one politician, Farooq Abdullah, has done some tough talk. Otherwise what we have been seeing during the last six months is dhimmitude from delhi netas.

[praksam]

Musings of an anonymous businessman, neverthless nails the eid day incident

In Kashmir, it is recklessness at its worst

http://www.indianewspost.com/india/3520 ... worst.html
By a Kashmiri businessman - - - - It is very easy -- indeed it has become fashionable -- to denounce security forces for the unending violence in Kashmir Valley. Sadly, it is not the full story.

Of course, the security forces have done what they should not. They have fired and killed people taking part in demonstrations. I doubt if they would have acted similarly had the protests taken place in Mumbai.
But that is only one side of the story. As Kashmiris express anguish over their fate, it is equally important to know the other side.
Take Eid day, for example. That was one day when there was no provocation by the security forces; yet unprecedented violence took place. There is no doubt in the minds of many ordinary Kashmiris that the mayhem of that holy day was planned by those who style themselves as Kashmiri leaders.
Knowing that police may not open fire because of widespread criticism, more than 400 youths riding motorcycles gathered at the historic Lal Chowk in Srinagar to hoist green flags atop the clock tower. Apart from other things, they destroyed a small park there. In no time, it was proved how conveniently separatists can convert a religious gathering into a frenzied mob.
The day provided an opportunity to Miwaiz Omar Farooq, the so-called moderate, to prove that he stands second to none in popularity. For three months, hardliner Syed Ali Shah Geelani has been calling the shots.
Despite all the arson that day, security forces fired mainly in the air. But the "peaceful protestors" attacked police and paramilitary camps!
On their part, the police and even the Central Reserve Police Force, which does not enjoy the kind of awe the Border Security Force did, maintained restraint to avoid civilian killings.
No one talks about the ordinary Kashmiris' crippled lives, about closed schools and colleges, huge business losses, and paralysed banks and public transport.
In a desperate bid to force India to accept Kashmir as an international dispute, Geelani and his men have been issuing "protest calendars" for the last three months. Congress and National Conference leaders have been left issuing media statements. None of their leaders has mustered the courage to mix with those who voted them to power in 2008.
Pursuing their single point agenda to somehow dislodge Omar Abdullah, the People's Democratic Party (PDP) is acting like the mouthpiece of the separatists. They have no guts to challenge the separatists who are playing havoc with their children's education, the valley's economy and the plight of the thousands of daily wage earners.
According to a recent survey, businessmen in the valley have suffered losses of around Rs.21,000 crore ($4.5 billion) in the last three months. Interestingly, businessmen in Jammu say they have also suffered losses of Rs.7,100 crore ($1.5 billion) because of snapped trade links with Srinagar.
Police stations, paramilitary camps, public property and homes of mainstream political activists have been torched.
The valley is passing through anarchy where young boys aged hardly more than 12 years stop vehicles and check the identity cards of the occupants and to spot out policemen.
A head constable was recently dragged out of his vehicle in the Ompora area of Srinagar and beaten mercilessly. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has come under pressure to repeal the Armed Forces (Special Powers) Act, release separatists and stone-pelters, compensate those injured and killed in the violence, and withdraw security forces from urban areas.
But it can be safely stated that none of these measures, however welcome they may be, will usher in peace in the valley.
Because that is not the agenda of the separatists. The peace they ask for is a peace that will be blessed by Pakistan.
For Kashmiri Muslim Sufis like us, that is unacceptable. As a government officer here said: "Give them your hand, and they will demand your head."
(The author is a businessman from Srinagar. He does not want his name to be revealed for fear of reprisal.)

[Pranav]

This is a litany of grievances. I am sure perceptive Red Indians and Australian Aborigines might have felt this way before extinction. The world is tough and shows no sympathy for people who pour out their grievances. What is required is taqiyya or pretence or pragmatism or whatever is needed to survive and produce policies that will eventually replace the rampant corruption that our polity represents. Hating a particular party and loving another party is just that - partisan. Nothing more. Being partisan comes as naturally to every one as the ability to pour out grievances.

By "Italian" I mean Sonia Gandhi. Did you have anyone else in mind? Who is "Yuvaraj", exactly?

Part of the solution is to delegitimize the present regime by raising awareness about the ongoing Indic Holocaust. The regime and its collaborators in the media should be exposed as Holocaust enablers.

[Muppalla]

^^^ The Indian constitution explicitly bars a person from one state to ever become the governer of that state. period. So if this snake is kashmiri, there's no way he can ever make J&K guv'ner.

Is it a legal provision or a just part of ethics? If it is legal then the GOI cannot break it.

[Pranav]

Omar Abdullah has made some absurd requests - asking for AFSPA to be repealed - possible as a panic poplulist measure. But the question is - if Omar Abdullah has not done the right things should his government be brought down? As per the constitution he has not completed his term. And the opposition have not asked for a voe of confidence. That puts the onus on the central government to dissolve the government if that is desirable or necessary.

Let Omar be for now ... but if the tacit support for fanatic hoodlums continues, and there is no improvement as regards corruption and governance, then the cost-benefit analysis may change.

[chetak]

^^^ The Indian constitution explicitly bars a person from one state to ever become the governer of that state. period. So if this snake is kashmiri, there's no way he can ever make J&K guv'ner.

Is it a legal provision or a just part of ethics? If it is legal then the GOI cannot break it.

1) Can't find out where this guy was born. Anyone?
His father was an Indian Army officer.

2) Will all the provisions of our constitution be applicable there considering Art 370?

[Karan M]

This is a litany of grievances. I am sure perceptive Red Indians and Australian Aborigines might have felt this way before extinction. The world is tough and shows no sympathy for people who pour out their grievances. What is required is taqiyya or pretence or pragmatism or whatever is needed to survive and produce policies that will eventually replace the rampant corruption that our polity represents.

Well, if you come up with theories of type A versus type B, then you will hear responses about why those theories dont really matter in a stacked deck type of scenario. You may label them as a litany of grievances, but it is the reality. For instance,many citizens in India, including terror victims or victims of corruption/ state high handedness have a "litany of grievances" about the apathetic Indian state, and so forth. The usual response has been to dismiss them, but the usual result is the "grievances" pile up till somebody comes along and harnesses them for their own ends, as the Maoists have done. I really see little proof things will change in India. The current status quo benefits far too many powerful people.

Hating a particular party and loving another party is just that - partisan. Nothing more. Being partisan comes as naturally to every one as the ability to pour out grievances.

Its not about hate but calling a spade a spade. I was one of the most trenchant critics of the manner in which the NDA govt did not follow through post Kargil. But why exactly does that matter, is it necessary to do an equal equal in every post.

But its easy to dismiss criticism as "hate" nowadays. If one says: Why do Kashmiris constantly do this? The response: You must hate Kashmiris and Muslims, you hater...

Its not hate, but a critique.

By "Italian" I mean Sonia Gandhi. Did you have anyone else in mind? Who is "Yuvaraj", exactly?

If you meant Sonia Gandhi, then why not refer to her by name, instead of questions about "indic" and italian born catholic as its less confusing. I was thinking you were asking questions in general. Clearly, you need to make some points to someone or somebody, then in which case, go ahead & do it directly, which conversation I wont be part of, since this is a tangent I really dont buy into (she is disliked because she is alien - rather, she may be disliked because of her policies).

[Karan M]

Wonderful discussion folks. So our country is facing one of the biggest debacles in terms of national security in years and here we have a successful "guidance" of discussion towards BJP's strategy in national politics. I would urge people to thwart such "guidance" and "re-education" by focusing the discussion on people responsible for this fiasco. The more they are under spotlight the lesser damage to nation shall take place.
Remember BJP is NOT the issue is failure of GOI==UPA....

Agreed, and apologies for having responded to this off topic discussion. I was actually under the impression that the queries about Kissinger & the hindu faith were made in an apolitical context, and in terms of whats "policy" or "norm" as is usually followed, today.

[Karan M]

If the New Delhi grapevine is to be believed, the UPA Government has sounded out Mr Wajahat Habibullah for the job of Governor of Jammu & Kashmir.

From what i heard of Wajahat Habbibullah on TV debates, he sounded like a bigger snake than even the Mufti Sayeed family...

On hearing his line of thought, the first thing that hit me was that if a KM who has been provided with the maximum possible power and responsibility by the Indian state without discrimination is talking the way he is, there is little hope of KMs ever reforming and aligning to the Indian way..

Exactly. There is a huge issue here. What is more baffling is the manner in which such folks are given so much power and pandered to.

[brihaspati]

shiv wrote
There is a very definite reluctance among some Hindus to accept some aliens as one of their own. Not all Hindus. Some Hindus. Call these people as "group A". There is another group of Hindus who will accept anyone as their own with few conditions. Call them "group B"

The BJP has given the appearance of attracting and keeping more Group A people
Congress has the appearance of attracting and keeping group B people

In brief that is the fundamental reason for the types of trouble we see in J&K. But here there is a failure to realize who is doing what! It is enough to discuss the C-party's attitudes to bring out the reality as they have dominated in terms of length in federal power and the biggest controlling hand on Constitutional provisions and their modifications.

If C really "attracted and kept" "group B people" then it would not have consistently put in measures that hardened identity differences from the "Hindu" and in fact given incentives for non-Hindu identities to claim ever increasing distinctions. You cannot go on increasing benefits for belonging to identities and protecting such identity's exclusivity claims different from the "Hindu" and claim that you are full of Hindus who "accept anyone" as "Hindu" with few conditions.

I pose the reverse proposition : that it was this party's inherent reverse exclusivity that led it to increasingly sharpening the identity claims of the non-Hindu. They did not want to absorb the "other" into the "Hindu", and they manifested the deepest of fears and "hatred" for the religion by actually protecting the extremist theological positions of those religions instead of bulldozing those faiths with "reforms" - something they did however carry on over the "Hindu".

They treated the Muslim as the "guest" in the house as best with a deep hidden suspicion of being possibly a "looter/robber" who will steal or murder or rob when the household sleeps. Indian tradition overly emphasizes "hospitality" which pampers the guest, and tolerates a lot of abuses that the guest may carry out. Suspicion of robbery will lead to a mixture of overt excessive kindness and pampering while sharply maintaining distinctions. If they were really thought of as family, there would not be any hesitation in giving a sound thrashing when the teenage son went out and abused neighbours and other family members, or "grounded" for some time as penalty. Showering the kid with more gifts for abuses is usually not a general practice. it only happens when the kid is not seen as family and someone else's.

Sorry - if absorption was what was really wanted, then the overt faith reposed by those Muslims who remained back in India should have been reciprocated by dissolving the boundaries and completely delegtimize the claim of theologians to come in between the rashtra and its citizens.

Recognizing religion as an intermediary between the rashtra and its citizens for all other faiths than the "Hindu" speaks volumes about the real attitudes. Also the core of the problem that has been allowed to fester now to the point what we see in J&K.

[shiv]

I pose the reverse proposition : that it was this party's inherent reverse exclusivity that led it to increasingly sharpening the identity claims of the non-Hindu. They did not want to absorb the "other" into the "Hindu", and they manifested the deepest of fears and "hatred" for the religion by actually protecting the extremist theological positions of those religions instead of bulldozing those faiths with "reforms" - something they did however carry on over the "Hindu".

They treated the Muslim as the "guest" in the house as best with a deep hidden suspicion of being possibly a "looter/robber" who will steal or murder or rob when the household sleeps. Indian tradition overly emphasizes "hospitality" which pampers the guest, and tolerates a lot of abuses that the guest may carry out. Suspicion of robbery will lead to a mixture of overt excessive kindness and pampering while sharply maintaining distinctions. If they were really thought of as family, there would not be any hesitation in giving a sound thrashing when the teenage son went out and abused neighbours and other family members, or "grounded" for some time as penalty. Showering the kid with more gifts for abuses is usually not a general practice. it only happens when the kid is not seen as family and someone else's.

Yes in fact I have myself said similar things in the past, but it strikes me that this is yet another group. Because the so called group B that I spoke of are technically Hindus who have been complicit in making the word Hindu a bad word.

Today in 2010 - it is easy to visit websites and news portals anywhere in the anglosphere and find the linkage being drawn by a wide variety of commentators, mediapersons and experts that "Hindu=bigot=extremist=RSS=BJP". And you know what - we now find that Islam=moderates+a few extremists. The extremism/bigotry of Islam has managed to crawl out of the woodwork into liberal/secular/dhimmified consciousness. Christianity of course is allowed to take a beating easily in the name of liberalism and free speech.

What has happened IMO is that religions are being played off against each other. In this game no quarter is given to any religion or any grouping that claims religious sentiment as its ethos. Secular politics is the bane of any group that espouses a religion based identity. There is a peculiar relationship between RSS and BJP that pulls the RSS down and fails to allow the BJP to rise. All OT. Just my view.

[jamwal]

Ajatshatru saar

Do you really think anybody cares about what non-muslims in India think or do using peaceful means, specially if it happens to be something that minority community wouldn't like ?

[vina]

Part of the solution is to delegitimize the present regime by raising awareness about the ongoing Indic Holocaust. The regime and its collaborators in the media should be exposed as Holocaust enablers.

I cant believe I am reading this hear. This just will confirm to any lay observer that the folks mouthing stuff like these are just bug eyed nutcases, nuttier than a fruitcake!

"Indic" Holocaust indeed.. I really dont know what this indic business is about but at a time when India is expanding and growing in all directions, economically, socially, politically and culturally, it is indeed a "duh" moment when someone mouths stuff like this. Face it. This is probably the best India has done since the medieval ages , including the Mughals and everything and the best days are ahead.

[kenop]

Hurri-rats are in no hurry

Chairman of the moderate faction of Hurriyat Conference Mirwaiz Umar Farooq on Saturday said he had not received any invitation from the Centre for interacting with the all-party delegation scheduled to arrive in Srinagar on Monday. "We have not received a formal invitation so far. We have only come to know about it through the media and it would not be prudent to react on media reports," the Mirwaiz said.

and oh btw

The Mirwaiz has been invited by the Organisation of Islamic Conference (OIC) to attend a meeting on Jammu and Kashmir and a foreign ministers' meeting in New York later this month.

Are they waiting for Ombaba to meet with when he lands? BTW, do the visiting Amirkhans also touch-musharraf with Hurri-rats? Purelanders do host them in Delhi.

[Karan M]

Re: Vina, post - Posted: 18 Sep 2010 20:45

What happened to the Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir? Or hindus in Bangladesh, and in dozens of mini-pogrom/ riots in independent "secular" india, suitably covered up, unless the shoe was on the other foot. Or Hindus in Pakistan - what exactly is their status today? What happened to umpteen Hindus and Sikhs during the Punjab "troubles" when indoctrinated terrorists were sponsored to unleash mayhem. Has anyone even bothered to add up the numbers of not just those killed, but the families pushed into penury, despair because they lost a loved one? Or does it only add up, when its one's own kith & kin involved, or own skin in the process?

What about the targeted killings during Diwali in Delhi, the attack at Akshardham - all minor blips no doubt, to be ignored. How many attacks have occurred over the past five years itself? When seen together, its a distressing and shameful picture, as to how utterly the so called rulers of "modern, secular India" have failed to do their duty. The result has been a growing feeling that vigilantism is ok, as the state will deliberately play mum or just not care.

Yeah, it is indeed a duh moment, because the response above about nutcases & the like, pretty much confirms how utterly clueless and arrogant the rich & well heeled elite in India are, despite their education & access to information, because they refuse to even admit the reality. Its always somebody else's problem - not theirs!

This is the India that is burning and bleeding, but which is ignored, and when somebody mentions the reality, all that is left is ridicule & ad hominem attacks - "This just will confirm to any lay observer that the folks mouthing stuff like these are just bug eyed nutcases, nuttier than a fruitcake!"

Alas, not all of us have had such substantial privilege and sheltered existences, that we can ignore whats happening day in & day out in an "India which is expanding and growing in all directions, economically, socially, politically and culturally" - including rampant ghettoization, the politics of appeasement for cultivating votebanks and the blowback, which again sets off another chain of reaction/counterreaction. Of course, reality does come in, once in a while such as 26/11, but how long does that last? Then its back to the regular programming.

Read through this link & what this interview says. Needless to say, it will be dismissed as communal, or loony or extremist or whatever. But it doesnt wash away the problem that exists in India today, and is growing by the day, thanks to an apathetic system and votebank politics.

[Pranav]

Part of the solution is to delegitimize the present regime by raising awareness about the ongoing Indic Holocaust. The regime and its collaborators in the media should be exposed as Holocaust enablers.

I cant believe I am reading this hear. This just will confirm to any lay observer that the folks mouthing stuff like these are just bug eyed nutcases, nuttier than a fruitcake!

"Indic" Holocaust indeed.. I really dont know what this indic business is about but at a time when India is expanding and growing in all directions, economically, socially, politically and culturally, it is indeed a "duh" moment when someone mouths stuff like this. Face it. This is probably the best India has done since the medieval ages , including the Mughals and everything and the best days are ahead.

FYI, there is a community called the Kashmiri Pandits. Ask them about their Holocaust. You could also ask Indic refugees from East Pakistan. Find out how many of their people were murdered. Ask the Indics who are being squeezed in Assam and Bengal.

Just because you are living comfortably, it doesn't mean that everybody is equally privileged.

By the way, there are many comments that you have left unanswered on the previous pages.

[A_Gupta]

In discussions about J&K, I hope people keep in mind that India has a rather forgiving political culture. E.g., Phoolan Devi was elected to the Lok Sabha. I think the theme is - be reasonable and we can all forget and forgive the past. What "reasonable" is is not well defined, but we know it when we see it.

[praksam]

Indians are mostly bewildered by the fervour of kashmir separatists.

http://virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-Arti ... ss=twitter

[Karan M]

In discussions about J&K, I hope people keep in mind that India has a rather forgiving political culture. E.g., Phoolan Devi was elected to the Lok Sabha. I think the theme is - be reasonable and we can all forget and forgive the past. What "reasonable" is is not well defined, but we know it when we see it.

A_Gupta, the culture may also be described as - "stop making trouble, look at all the fun you can have if you join regular Indian politics", which works in enticing those leaders who are ready to jump ship and dont have a committed idealogy.

The problem comes when the smart ones realize that the way to power is to be as big a violent challenger to the status quo as possible. This gives them power and relevance. People like Gilani would be locked up in any other system and the key thrown away.

In India, he is kept relevant, as the Govt tries to mollycoddle him no matter what he does, and he responds with inciting more violence, as he knows the regular laws dont apply to him.

This is a recipe for trouble.

[sum]

The pits was in today's NDTV debate on Kashmir which was thankfuly hosted by a more neutral Vikram Chandra than our favourite, Madam Burkha.

The BR "poster boy", Gautam Navlakha, was on the show and he actually managed to call the Kashmiri Pandit org as a "communal, neo-fascist" organisation!!!!

This is what our country has come to...get driven out to your religion and if you protest against that, get called fascists by the "liberals"!!!

Truely blood boiling stuff...

[chetak]

http://pragmatic.nationalinterest.in/20 ... narrative/

Bring the truth out

Indian government must immediately start a public diplomacy campaign to correct the distorted narrative about Kashmir.

Public diplomacy continues to remain a neglected field in the deeply-entrenched archaic ways of the Indian government. The latest example of this failure is Kashmir where the Indian government is on the losing end in this battle of shaping the public narrative. This failure of public diplomacy is shaping incorrect perceptions and attitudes in local and global audiences about the Kashmir issue, as well as giving ammunition to India’s adversaries, including the Kashmiri separatists, in the struggle for minds and wills of the affected populace.

After the recent turmoil started in Kashmir about two months ago, what immediately followed was an expected and unoriginal cacophony of sound bytes based on selective memories of the past and shallow and ignorant visions of the present and future. Most observers would concur that too much of contemporary media coverage on Kashmir — in television and print — has been focused on pinning the blame on the Indian state. This has happened as the government has allowed the separatists to establish the playing field and set the terms of engagement. This has, in part, resulted in the valid grouse among the security forces that unlike them, the violent arsonists and their benefactors are not held accountable for their actions because major sections of the Indian media inhabit a quaint world of adjudicated conflict. The reality however is that government’s passivity to disburse information equates to surrendering the facts and narrative and intentions to the separatists.

This failure, to a large degree, stems from the Indian government’s inability to recognise that the battlefield in Kashmir between violent stone-pelting mobs and law-enforcing security forces isn’t necessarily only a physical battle any more. It is in the minds of the people. It is what they believe to be true that matters. If they are being mislead by a media that is ignorant, uneducated and uninformed, simply blaming the media is not good enough. The challenge is upon the government to correct this anomaly by explaining India’s position.

Exactly who is responsible for explaining India’s position to the rest of the world? Ministry of External Affairs. Perhaps, more importantly, who is responsible for explaining India’s position on Kashmir to its own people: the state government, the Home Ministry, Defence Ministry, I&B ministry, PMO, PIB or some-other government agency? As of now, it seems nobody. When spokespersons of the ruling political party ostensibly defend the government on television, they still only defend the party, and do not speak for the government of India. Regardless, public diplomacy is not about merely involving a specific bureaucracy or a specific ministry: the Indian government must use all the tools in its toolbox. It needs to be primarily an activity of national endeavour, not merely of public relations of one branch of the government. It needs to be mobilised and sent into battle to win this ideological conflict.

There is an earlier successful example of how this battle of public diplomacy was fought by the Indian state. Rewind the clock back to 1999 — the Kargil War — and one can remember the coordinated efforts of all departments and ministries of the government to conduct the public diplomacy campaign. In a similar vein, while the ministry of home affairs has to take the lead in conducting this campaign, it has to be actively supported by the PMO, defence ministry and the Ministry for External Affairs in this endeavour.

Why the Ministry of External Affairs when Kashmir is our internal matter? Because whether we like it or not, Kashmir has been and still remains an important foreign policy agenda point for India. Moreover, when prominent Indian journalists on international affairs beat are covering Kashmir today, it would be easier for the Ministry of External Affairs to leverage its relationship with these journalists.

The government — the whole of the government — must act now. It is time to stop accepting the propaganda of our enemies. This is about them, not us. Let the government expose the Kashmiri separatist leadership for what it really is — a threat to all liberal, democratic societies, supporters of subjugating women by seeking implementation of the Shariah, killers of young children by pushing them at the front of violent mobs, violent criminals indulging in arson by burning schools and public property, tacit supporters of jehadi terror and hypocrites who use all the facilities of the Indian state while decrying it at the same time. Denying physical sanctuary to terrorists requires security operations but winning the ideological battle against these enemies of India requires conscious, yet subtle, sustained and coordinated efforts from the government of India.

Satyamev Jayate — “Truth Alone Triumphs” — remains India’s national motto. Yes, truth shall prevail in the end. But it can only prevail if it is brought out in the open first. Can the government please start now?

[sum]

Indians are mostly bewildered by the fervour of kashmir separatists.

http://virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-Arti ... ss=twitter

Wow...Vir Sanghvi wrote that piece? Read like a BRF SRR article!!!

The KMs are well and truely loosing any symphaty they had even in the "elite and moderately liberal" classes, it seems....
the "uber liberal" and WKKs are write-offs like the KMs themselves and are no-hopers..

[chetak]

The pits was in today's NDTV debate on Kashmir which was thankfuly hosted by a more neutral Vikram Chandra than our favourite, Madam Burkha.

The BR "poster boy", Gautam Navlakha, was on the show and he actually managed to call the Kashmiri Pandit org as a "communal, neo-fascist" organisation!!!!

This is what our country has come to...get driven out to your religion and if you protest against that, get called fascists by the "liberals"!!!

Truely blood boiling stuff...

First time in such a slanted TV channel, the word sunni has been mentioned to describe sajjad lone, geelani and their hairy gang in the valley.

lone also showed his intolerant hand by saying that the shias, pandits et al and the rest of the kashmiri "minorities" had no say in the azaadi demand for independence.

[Karan M]

Sum, why the outrage?

Clearly Mr Navlakha is right. The Pandits should give up their historical revanchism (its so religion based, and communal!), their nuttier than a fruitcake insistence that they are persecuted, and just enjoy whats happening to them!

Why, India is growing economically, culturally and socially, its the best time ever since the medieval era, and these Pandits are just standing in the way!


(it was sarcasm btw)

[vina]

Re: Vina, post - Posted: 18 Sep 2010 20:45

What happened to the Kashmiri Pandits in Kashmir? Or hindus in Bangladesh, and in dozens of mini-pogrom/ riots in independent "secular" india, suitably covered up, unless the shoe was on the other foot.

The Kashmir problem (as happened after 1989 ) today is in my opinion a part of the rise of the tide of global fundamentalist islam. From what I understand , Kashmiri society was largely Persianized for close to 500 years (in fact most of the Kashmiri Hindus too were quite proficient in Farsi and were rather persianized themselves like JL Nehru and his fore fathers). Urdu/Hindustani became the court language and the link language among all the people of the state of Jammu and Kashmir only in after 1850s or so I think after Dogra rule.

I think what really set the stage for this islamist rise in Kashmir today (lets face it the only "problem" in Kashmir is the islamist one, not the traditional Kashmir) is the Khomeni and Islamic revolution in Iran phenomenon. That was the spark I think given the Persian "cultural" links (why does Press TV have special coverage and the Iranian govt have cultural program links with Kashmir?). Later Saudi Wahhabi rise due to the Soviet Afghan mess, took on a momentum and the Pakistanis lit the fuse in 1989 when then acquired nuclear cover as a shield against Indian military response.

Now the problem with your question "what happened to the pandits" puts all the onus on all the people as fundamentalist. That is never the case. It is always more nuanced, there are the fundamentalist nutcases, the opportunists, the terrorized ordinary folks, the bystanders , a whole spectrum. What you need to do is to separate the wheat from the chaff. Isolate the fundamentalists , deal with them both politically and militarily. Drain the swamps where the get sustenance from, hit at their funding, organization and support base, aggressively do that.

Remember , you are fighting an insurgency that has multiple motivations and sources of sustenance and that is linked to a global surge of fundamentalist islam. Earlier India was fighting it alone, had little or no support (the opposition had the support), but now things are different.

From what was a "India/local problem", Islamist fundamentalism is a global problem and we do have lot more support and infact the Islamist surge is being confronted and faced globally. We cannot do it alone, could never have done it alone and we are lucky that the Islamists are so loony and bug eyed that they shot themselves in their foot and made it a "global" problem and not a localized Middle East or S. Asian problem.

I am not sure if you realize it, but more than any one else, the Kashmir separatists have recongized that terrorist violence is totally counterproductive, especially when done in the name of Kashmir . That is exactly what this change of strategy is about.

In fact, when I was living in New York at the time of 9/11, I met a senior guru just a few days after in a Univ uptown and he remarked that this is a conflict which we will have to deal with the muslim world for the next 2 generations at least (this was before US troops went to Afghanistan) . Understand that there are deeper social trends and phenomena behind what is happening and that like everything, it will crest and then ebb.

I happen to think that global islamist appeal has crested (despite the appearance of the contrary) , opposition has increased and diminishing returns have set in. It is sort of like the crack cocaine phenomenon in NYC or the socialist/marxist surge and ebb cycle. Earlier crack ridden neighborhoods in Morningside Heights , East Village, former certain parts of Upper West Side, Brooklyn etc are now gentrified and posh. The city went through a crack and drugs cycle and pulled itself back when it got confronted. Yes. I think radical islam too is going through the crack cocaine kind of cycle that NYC went through . Two reasons. 1) You cant sustain that intensity for that long across generations 2) Real world starts intruding.. questions like..err. Mr Geelani, I need to go to school.. I need to eat start coming in and once that happens, it goes quickly down the toilet.

I see the current upsurge as a desperate last surge by the Islamists. It needs to be handled carefully and appropriately without shooting off our mijjiles oops guns and make sure that the real world questions start intruding and the intensity tapers off naturally.

All this calls for thinking with the head rather than the gonads and needs careful cognizance that it is a long term 30-40+ year thing. As Sun Tzu would have said, strike when the enemy is weak. Wait for global islamism to crest and ebb as a result of being confronted (as is being done now) and then strike. Until then hang in and dont do anything too stupid. That is all my take is.

[Sanjay M]

The rise of Islamic fundamentalism is not uniformly/symmetrically distributed across the world. The rise of fundamentalism in Malaysia does not equate to the rise of fundamentalism in Af-Pak.

Pandits have been displaced by the Af-Pak fanaticism through no fault of their own (although arguably they are reaping the fruits sewn by their long lost hero, Pandit Nehru and his ideology. Rahul certainly doesn't have enough Pandit genes to worry about those languishing in camps)

In ancient times of duress and oppression, which were always accompanied by divide-and-rule, there were those who came forward to preach a more fundamental type of morality that reached below superficial divisions to unite people and rally them against the oppressor. Guru Nanak, for example, did this.

At some point, someone will have to formulate a way to bring together the divided polity to ward off the current threats gathering against Indian society.

[Karan M]

Vina,

All that is fine, but your long ramble neatly sidesteps your assertions that there is nothing going on as far as persecution against hindus is concerned & things are hunky dory.

Generally, all these claims of Now the problem with your question "what happened to the pandits" puts all the onus on all the people as fundamentalist. That is never the case. It is always more nuanced ..etc. are pure coffee shop discussion points & divert the discussion into what I never even referred to. In other words, pure Don Quixote vs a rhetorical windmill.

The question - which you entirely missed- is not just what happened to the pandits. Its what happened to the hindus in bangladesh and pakistan and what continues to happen. Its what happened to the hindus in Bengal recently, what happened to Hindus in UP when there were riots recently and what continues to happen throughout that India of good times, you were oft referring to.

For instance you note:
In fact, when I was living in New York at the time of 9/11, I met a senior guru just a few days after in a Univ uptown and he remarked that this is a conflict which we will have to deal with the muslim world for the next 2 generations at least (this was before US troops went to Afghanistan) . Understand that there are deeper social trends and phenomena behind what is happening and that like everything, it will crest and then ebb.

This is an academic exercise to you wherein you refer to a senior "guru" but tar and feather anyone who speaks his mind as loony, fruitcake and what not!

Unfortunately, while you were living in New York and having these debates in "an Univ uptown", and while you quote examples from the US, there were many Hindus being killed, molested, mutilated, and attacked purely because they were Hindu, and that too throughout India. Furthermore, it is happening today.

Are you now aware of this, or does more evidence have to be provided to you, of a world that is fairly far from New York, but exists across Bengal, the North East, Central and even South India, where Hindus are actively targeted, and attacked purely because certain other faiths have adherents who cannot countenance the existence of hindus on an idealogical level or alternatively, regard them as a hindrance on the path to local power?

Then you note "Understand that there are deeper social trends and phenomena behind what is happening and that like everything, it will crest and then ebb. " - completely ignoring the fact that it is NOT just today or yesterday's issues which are being brought to the fore when persecution occurs.

These academic "crests and ebbs" for you, are unfortunately, for more prudent observers, directly linked to a bigoted form of Islam which has existed in the subcontinent for hundreds of years, mutating through various strains, and spread by successive authority figures whether they be Wahhabis or Deobandis or whoever.

Of course, when these issues are referred to by anyone else], you dismiss it as "historical revanchism". Talk about trying to run with the hares and hunt with the hounds! If things today, were so fine and political Islam, in the subcontinent had no issues with other faiths, everything would be hunky dory, but it isnt!

There are riots in Maharashtra when a Hindu organization puts up a banner on Afzal, Shivaji. A hindu organization is attacked in Chennai by a prominent Muslim leader when they showcase what Aurangzeb did to non Muslims. Taslima Nasreen is phsyically attacked in Hyderabad by a legislator and his goons at a public conference. All these occur in that perfectly fine, secular India.

Fact of life is that extremist Islam has a political component to it. And that political component, when used by preachers & certain "men of faith" is deliberately used to incite violence & target other communities. If one were to read your post, the conclusion would be that bigotry in Kashmir really took off thanks to the Persians and things were hunky dory before. And now suddenly, India is in the midst of the global islamist surge which has reached its nadir.

Heres a hint, many parts of India are STILL in the medieval ages. I am very much aware of instances in this day and age, where after Friday prayers, people of other faiths were deliberately targeted for merely having gone through the ghetto as a traffic shortcut. Modern day India is full of such events and incidents. And these events when they pile up, and the state turns a blind eye, lead to vigilantism & a blowback, which then you are eager to pounce on as being communal.

Kindly wake up. The Islamist violence phenomenon has long existed in India, and after independence, it has even been allowed to fester deliberately, so as to foster votebanks and a sense of exclusivity, so that the population would vote en masse for your favorite leaders, whom you are absurdly partisan about.

And its not just Islam. The issue spreads across communities, across region, caste, whatever, thanks to votebank politics.

And all these political games, in order to hold on to power actually cost lives and bring national security to the brink of disaster. The demographics in Assam, Bengal's border regions have all been changed, while successive Govt's deliberately turned a blind eye. And India was suffering this, while the "experts" abroad et al, were all talking about how it was Hindu India which was oppressing poor Muslims & regarded countries like Pakistan, and Islamic extremism as a useful tool which they could use for their strategic interests.

Net, you can continue to claim that things are far better, and India has some magic uberweapon, and strategy and cool head or whatever to deal with Kashmir or the umpteen cases of domestic religious bigotry that occur every other day.

But the reality, as is seen by many of us, disadvantaged, common citizens, is that there is no such wonder weapon. The GOI is nothing but what the Govt of the day lets it be, and the Govt of the day is often full of malicious, political satraps who have made a career out of vote bank and minority appeasement, and exploit every situation to the hilt, only reacting when the situation reaches boiling point.

Even then, they are always ready to cut a deal, with anyone and everyone, nation/ethics/morality all be da***ed, as can be seen even in the current J&K crisis where Omar & his political rivals are all jockeying for power. This is the real India, welcome to it. One hopes that this reality,whether they be "historical revanchism" or "ebbs and tides" with minor pinpricks like 26/11 dont have to happen again and again before you realize the trouble India is in, thanks to votebank politics. In the process, ordinary citizens, are being targeted for ethnic cleansing and conversion throughout India. Just because you are unaware of it, does not mean it is not occurring!

In fact, the more folks like you deny this, the more you try to browbeat and ridicule those who bring this up, the more the chances that the blowback, when it comes will not be nuanced or led by rational people who are willing to debate by some arcane set of rules. It will be led by thugs, violent people whom the victims rush to, because they are the only ones who defend them. At that point, you will sit and crib and complain about Hindu Taliban. A surefire strategy for success , to be sure.

So please, wake up, get out of your ivory tower, dear sir, and acknowledge there is a problem for those who are not as privileged as you, including those who have to live in and near areas where they are a minority, and face the constant threat of persecution and violence. Be aware of the constant political push by preachers who use their faith to garner power, and constantly battle the state, doing their own version of salami slicing day in and day out. Then talk, rather than pass parables of what happened in NY or the US, because unfortunately, things in India are far worse, even though you are unaware of them and dont identify with these issues.

Finally, global trends and what not apart, simple fact is that if every Govt of the day in India, laid down the law come what may, and enforced a common code of law for everyone, it would not matter whether it was rabid stone pelters in J&K, or bus burners in TN or goons in Central India, or what their reason for misbehaviour was, everyone would behave, because the law would treat everyone equally. Not based on how they voted and whether they were from a certain "disputed region" or whether they had good potential to be future leaders.

[CRamS]

Guys,

Watch NDTV now.

For the first time, the word sunni has been mentioned.

sajjad lone has dismissed shias, ladakhi, pandits, gujjars, bakharwals et al. Says that their say is not important.

Vikram chandra was moderating

I watched this debate in its entirety. For once, India's free press at its best. I mean Vikram Chandar did an outstanding job getting every shade of opinion, from the odious Gellani and Gautam Nivukula, to supreme patriot Chandan Mitra. I have watched many a so called debates in the bastion of democracy and "free press" USA; nothing would even come close. Whenever US "debates" on issues of national security, its a self satisfying monolouge, but it can get away with such a charade given its power.

I was struck by the complete disconnect between Kashmiri Sunni Muslims and Pandits. And the b@$%ds around the world pointing a finger at India have the gall to call what Kashmiri Sunni Muslims are demanding is a "secular" movement for "self determination".

One thing the show did not cover which Vikram Candra did not emphasize is that TSP is at the root fueling the discontent that Geelani & Co have. And how about US using its remote control. So there you have it, what an explosive mix of competing interests, with none having complete domination, and hence impossible to find a meeting ground. No wonder the Kashmiri Muslim perverts in the audience so self confident that their dream of "azadi" is not a myth.

There is no easy way out for India in Kashmir. It has to fight, a kind of battle that US "fought" with native Indians, the kind of "battle" Ozzies fought with Aborigines, the kind of "battle" TSP fought with its minorities etc.

The best line in the debate I thought was from Vikram Chandra. When the Uber RAPE Sajjad Lone dismissed the opinions of Shias, Pandits etc who are not interested in "azadi", Vikram Chandra shot back saying why should India with a billion+ care 2 hoots about what a gang of Sunni Kashmiri Muslim pervert want . Therein lies the solution.

[Karan M]

The rise of Islamic fundamentalism is not uniformly/symmetrically distributed across the world. The rise of fundamentalism in Malaysia does not equate to the rise of fundamentalism in Af-Pak.

Pandits have been displaced by the Af-Pak fanaticism through no fault of their own (although arguably they are reaping the fruits sewn by their long lost hero, Pandit Nehru and his ideology. Rahul certainly doesn't have enough Pandit genes to worry about those languishing in camps)

In ancient times of duress and oppression, which were always accompanied by divide-and-rule, there were those who came forward to preach a more fundamental type of morality that reached below superficial divisions to unite people and rally them against the oppressor. Guru Nanak, for example, did this.

At some point, someone will have to formulate a way to bring together the divided polity to ward off the current threats gathering against Indian society.

If one were to follow what the west and assorted "gurus" et al say, there was no extremist Islam from western allies like Pak or even large scale terrorism till 9/11 occurred and the famed Global War on Terror was launched. The literal jihad waged on India by Pak, was excusable, it did not even exist. At every level, there is propaganda, based on the dictum repeat a lie long enough & it becomes the truth. Pak became extremist thanks to Zia, before that it was all A-ok, yeah sure, go to to Youtube and you have Pakistani singers referring to Indians as lalas (the usual caste epithet for Hindus) even in the 1965 conflict.

Hence no wonder, some buy into this unform distribution/symmetric/we are facing this because the world is, kind of drivel thanks to the amount of propaganda from their favorite sources in the west etc. India itself, thanks to its votebank politics has done a shoddy job of disseminating the truth. Fact is India, by virtue of its history, has faced & itself seen the rise of some of the most virulent Islamist organizations. Partition saw that mindset, that frame of mind, that idealogy, get an entire nation for itself, wherein it went on to enthusiastically do what it did in different regions and bits and pieces, on a national scale, with minorities across the board suffering. Elements of the same mindset continue to exist in India, and poison the larger parent faith & national body politic, and by virtue of their ability to swing votes & deliver violence (always useful) are protected assets for politicians.

While one solution, is what you propose, namely the hope for a deus ex machina or even a miracle, that is unlikely to happen in this country. The only possible option is if the law & order system is forced to transform and is made independent of political pressure, and the laws of the country are made fair and equitable to all, instead of being dominated by what pressure groups (ably fronted by NGOs) say they should be, based on dodgy interpretations of secularism or other isms.

[brihaspati]

No wonder we Indians have a reputation of totally gullible wide-eyed's soaked through and through with myths.

When shall we stop for a moment and study original sources or translations of such sources that describe what was observed about reality closer in time and place to ours? Can we at least stop and study the history of "Kashmir" and its islamization before coming here and claiming that what is happening now in "Kashmir" is onlee a recent phenomenon of some mysterious spontaneous upsurge of global jihad? What has been happening in Kashmir is something that has been going on for almost 600 years.

http://www.kashmir-information.com/Wail ... hap11.html

Records Srivar, "Sikander under the inspiration of yavanas (Muslims) burnt books, (saklan pustakan) the same way as fire burns hay." Being an erudite scholar of Sanskrit Srivar has deliberately taken to the plank of wrong grammar to focus, stress and disseminate Sikander's heinous crime of destructing books on an unimaginable scale. Again he records, "All the scintillating works faced destruction in the same manner that lotus flowers face with the onset of frosty winter."

As an inveterate enemy of human knowlege and learning Sikander replicated the Muslim history of burning libraries that were bedecked with precious books on all segments of human learning and creative impulses. The Kashmiri Pandits vexed and mortified at whole-sale despoliation of their precious heritage and cultural objects fled with a portion of their book-treasure to the mountainous regions and inaccessible forest areas where they could be safe and secure from the Muslim philistines. Some Pandits extra-keen to save their tomes and manuscripts from the Muslim destructionists crossed the mountain ramparts girting the valley to the plains of India.

Writes Srivar, "The erudites of that period witnessing the en masse destruction of books by Muslims fled their land with some books through mountain routes."
Sikander harnessed state machinery to get the houses of Pandits ransacked and looted and the choicest books thus got were consigned to the flowing currents of rivers, oozing waters of lakes and wells and hurled into deep ditches and ravines.
Records Walter Lawrence, " All books of Hindu Learning which he (Sikander) could find were sunk in the legal lake and after some time Sikander flattered himself that he had extirpated Hinduism from the valley."
A Muslim historian Hassan also writes, " All the Hindu books of learning were collected and thrown into Dal Lake and were buried beneath stones and earth."

Bhuvaneshwar who had tremendous reputation all over the country for his amazing levels of scholarship in Vedic lore and learning was harassed and put to an orgy of plunder and loot (lotri-dand). Ultimately under motivations of infinite bigotry he was butchered in a merciless Muslim manner. His severed head smeared with tilak as a caste-mark was hurled away on a road-side with a view to instilling fear and trepidation among the intellectuals who had not renounced their religion and continued contributing to the indigenous expressions of learning and scholarship. All the Brahmans who were learned and had mastery over theology were exterminated.

This was how many centuries ago? I am leaving the question open so that people may try to look beyond the "economic+historical+dialectical materialism" to search for the sole mystery behind spontaneous Islamic upsurges. And this is now: or precisely post 1989. Read it gentle BRFite and tell me whether you think anything has changed? Spontaneous upsurges appear to be everlastingly spontaneous and just because they ebb does not apparently imply that they do not flow again!

The Kashmir university funded by the University Grants Commission and headed by the Governor of the state was denuded of two thousand books including the works of Milton, G.B. Shaw, Shakespeare, H.G. Wells and tomes on Hindu Philosphy in a Nazi style. The book-shop vending works of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Morris Cornforth, Winwood Read et al was looted in broad daylight at Batamaloo, Srinagar. The library of the Information Centre run by Government of India was looted by the progeny of Halaku Khan and set on fire. The book titled as "Pachan" authored by a Kashmiri literattuer was torn and burnt on the streets of Baramulla and the author was imprisoned for no fault of his for months on end. A Muslim progressive accused of heresy for having books of Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao et al was harassed by instituting cases against him and with the onset of Muslim terrorism he was cruelly squirted with bullets and killed.

As is well-known the Muslim insurgency backed up by the militarised Islamic forces opened its ruinous agenda in 1988 and touched a crescendo in 1989. The Muslim marauders could not but suppress their innate urge and proclivity to loot, plunder and arson the properties and estates left behind by the fleeing Pandits. They desecrated and destructed their temples, harvested their crops and annexed their lands and to cap it all looted and burnt their books as repositories of learning and knowledge. Targetting each Kashmiri Pandit house for loot and ravage as per the delineated plans the ruthless marauders acting in the name of Islam destroyed paintings in oils or in water colours and sketches of inestimable value and images of gods and goddesses and human figures sculpted out of bronze and other materials to quench their savage thirst for the annihilation of their religious foes.

With the motive of destroying Sanskrit learning and its vestiges in Kashmir the invaluable treasure of Sanskrit manuscripts in Sharda script that was preserved in the Research Library, Srinagar was shifted to the Department of Central Asian Studies where it is said to have been dumped in gunny bags left to the care of hostile moths.
[...]
The books looted from Pandit clusters prior to their total decimation have been contemptuously torn, mutilated and scattered over the interiors of the houses. There are marauders who have collected numerous books on varied subjects, and have been selling them by weight. There is a special class of Muslim marauders who have dumped a huge stock of invaluable books in their residential quarters and have been selling them to retailers who in turn tear them page by page and convert them into cones and other geometrical shapes to vend off their retail items like tea, sugar, salt, spices et al. There are Muslim fanatics of the Jammaat-i-Islami breed who make a pile of the looted books in the isolated corner of a lane and set it afire chanting "death to Pandit Kaisers."
[...]
While accosting to the Muslim shopkeeper putting on a well-cut beard he was plainly informed that he had been selling books looted from the houses of Pandit Kafirs who had fled the land thus rendering a damage to the on-going movement. On enquiry he was told that he himself had been looting books from the Pandit houses and then he had contacts who have been pursuing it as a profession at the behest of respectable Muslims. "Who are the persons at whose behest they pursue it as a profession?" asked the officer. "That I cannot tell", was the reply.

[svinayak]

Indians are mostly bewildered by the fervour of kashmir separatists.

http://virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-Arti ... ss=twitter

Wow...Vir Sanghvi wrote that piece? Read like a BRF SRR article!!!

The KMs are well and truely loosing any symphaty they had even in the "elite and moderately liberal" classes, it seems....
the "uber liberal" and WKKs are write-offs like the KMs themselves and are no-hopers..

Why are they surprised.
why did not the media discuss the taliban in kashmir and the extent of taliban in Pakistan for the last 20 years. Why did they keep it away from the public

[ramana]

Indians are mostly bewildered by the fervour of kashmir separatists.

http://virsanghvi.com/CounterPoint-Arti ... ss=twitter

Wow...Vir Sanghvi wrote that piece? Read like a BRF SRR article!!!

The KMs are well and truely loosing any symphaty they had even in the "elite and moderately liberal" classes, it seems....
the "uber liberal" and WKKs are write-offs like the KMs themselves and are no-hopers..

Why are they surprised.
why did not the media discuss the taliban in kashmir and the extent of taliban in Pakistan for the last 20 years. Why did they keep it away from the public[/quote]
may be the media didn't feel they should highlight the issues in order to keep the charade of secularism inact?

[brihaspati]

There is an intensive demand, and sought to be viciously imposed wherever ideas are exchanged - that the Kashmiri separatist type of violence should always be explained away by economic demand, life aspirations, neglect, supposed repression or feelings or repression, needling from "outside" - but never ever linked to "inside", from within one's faith, from within the country and region, from within its historical continuity, aspirations that developed in a different period of barbaric sway of one faith over others. Search everywhere else but the real reasons - if you do you are demonizing a faith. Why should not actual events run out of control because we suppress reality with a spontaneous energy and persistence , a millionth of which is never ever shown in facing up to the real enemy?

Every historical failure, every failure of the modern state in tackling these terrorist movements - like that in J&K - ultimately come from the rashtryia obsession with suppressing exploration of reality, the protection of the role of the underlying ideology and its actual continuous historical record and the fear with which we capitulate to that obsession and censor ourselves.

[Karan M]

Brihaspati,

Well said. Merely speaking the truth in todays India gets one characterised as communal or bigot and what not. We saw the cognitive dissonance right now in the thread above courtesy the word holocaust being used, and the user of that term being told that he was a "a bug eyed nutcase, loonier than a fruitcake".

This is the level of absolute and total indoctrination that many of our well heeled and educated elite display when it comes to such discussions. Ask them about what the Nazis did to the Jews or the Communists Holodomor, and they will have expressions of outrage. But nary a bit about what occurred and is continuing to occur in their own backyard. Take a look at the sanitised numbers here & the fact that most of the victims in several areas will happen to be from the majority faith:
http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries ... lities.htm

Sanitised, as some events will invariably not be reported as non terror attacks, and the above only calculates numbers from 1994 onwards, and ignores the non fatalities, the crippled families, the ethnic cleansing of entire areas, and the constant harassment and violence which is all too common in many areas. How many other countries can boast such a nice record of achievement? No need to worry, things have never been better for India!

http://www.dailypioneer.com/282399/Anat ... etold.html

Deganga is approximately 50 km from Kolkata’s Dum Dum airport, past the busy suburban town of Barasat. As our motorcade veered off onto the road to Basirhat, urban bustle yielded place to rural serendipity — lush paddy fields with the crop almost struggling to keep its head above the standing water, thatched huts, goats and hens frolicking on the roadside, curious bystanders watching a procession of vehicles zipping past, noisy buses and motorised rickshaws seeking to pick up passengers from the middle of the road, and the ubiquitous teashop, the hub of village gossip and political argument: In other words, typically agrarian Bengal.

As we approached Deganga, the scenario changed rapidly, disturbingly. Rows of burnt shops, ransacked kiosks, burnt scooters and shuttered commercial outlets lined the highway, town after town. Deganga thana resembled a fortress. Army trucks were lined, with men in fatigues, cocked rifles in hand patrolling furiously. We saw at least three police vehicles charred almost beyond recognition close to the sprawling police outpost. We proceeded without stopping to the epicentre of the violence, Deganga Bazar, a big cluster of shops and pucca houses. As we descended from our vehicles, crowds gathered not quite knowing if we were sarkari inspectors, since three police jeeps were part of our convoy. After understanding that it was a BJP team that had come to inspect the ravaged town, the crowd virtually burst out in pain, anguish, hatred and anger.

We were the first political delegation to reach the violence-torn region. Surprisingly, none of the three major political forces in the State — ruling CPI(M), challenger Trinamool and also-ran Congress — had ventured here since the trouble began last Monday. At times, we had to face the wrath of angry locals who demanded to know what took us three days. Some even hurled abuse asking if we had arrived merely to milk their misery for political gain. Many eventually calmed down, realising the BJP was too small an entity in the State as of now to gain significantly by exploiting the situation even if it wanted to. So anger gave way to appreciation and plaintive appeals for help. That two MPs had come all the way from Delhi and the party’s State leaders had accompanied them aroused hope that their sufferings could be addressed at last.

Particularly poignant was the shrill intervention by a young woman, not more than 18 years old, who said her family wanted to send her out to a distant relative’s place, but she refused because this was her home and she had a right to stay there and defend it. Between sobs she said her mother (who stood stoically next to her) was equally determined not to become a refugee again: “We came here from Bangladesh about a decade ago to escape religious persecution. Will you make us homeless again? Is there no justice, no security, in democratic India?” Our delegation, comprising Lok Sabha MP Uday Singh, State BJP president Rahul Sinha, past president Tathagata Roy, other State party leaders apart from myself, was left speechless in the face of her angry but articulate queries.

We had not intended to visit Kartickpur, a small qasba beyond Deganga town. But the crowd insisted we see the vandalism unleashed there by goons at the instigation of local Trinamool MP, Haji Nurul Islam. The idol at a roadside Kali temple lay mutilated on the floor. People’s anger exploded as we expressed our outrage at this unpardonable crime: In secular India, nobody has a right to desecrate a place of worship, Hindu, Muslim, Sikh, Christian or any other for that matter. We were virtually dragged into the interior by a frenzied crowd that wanted us to see the wanton burning of houses and hutments by mobs who came from outside to “teach a lesson” to members of a community.

Why did they do this? Apparently because an attempt to grab land traditionally used for a community Durga Puja was resisted. In a region where demographic and denominational change has been severe in the last two decades, Hindus are now in a hopeless minority accounting for just about 30 per cent of the population. Bangladeshi infiltrators, armed with ration cards, voter IDs and other evidence of citizenship, rule the roast while local Muslims have also become radicalised in recent years. The religious demography has affected politics too. A long time Left stronghold, the CPI candidate Ajay Chakrabarti was rounded defeated by an avowed fundamentalist, Haji Nurul Islam of the Trinamool Congress, in the 2009 Lok Sabha poll. And Deganga has been a victim of communal polarisation ever since.

Nice stuff, great progress indeed, modern India goes ahead!

But lets get back to Kashmir where apparently things were ok for KPs and Hindus till 1989. Heres a site run by some KP's:

http://thekashmir.wordpress.com/2010/09 ... magnitude/
Doubtless, communal propoganda as we all know trouble only began in 1989 and what not.

All the persecution is recent. But wait, even further back:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guru_Tegh_ ... #Martyrdom

So at what point does the word persecution become pogrom or become holocaust? After a while, even these terms loose their impact.

But lets get to today and see how the secular Indian state takes a stand. Namely, what happens when a woman dares to write about the persecution of minorities or takes a stand on religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VEeuCwxq6k4

Note the title.

Look at the brazen display of power. The lady is cowering as several men, pick up chairs and attack her physically, throwing stuff at her while another loudly yells in the background.

Clearly we should be proud of this, this "tolerance" as opposed to the nasty brutish communal right!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/33673741@N00/1087781345/

BTW the proud men in the above video and pic, happen to be members of a political organization in old Hyderabad, which traces its antecedents back to the Razakar rebellion.

http://tinyurl.com/39vojeq

India tolerates these fine people and has allowed them to flourish. Talk about learning from ones mistakes. No, please that would be falling prey to revanchist history then according to our liberal experts! The Razakars were of course very nice people.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Hyd ... 611312.ece

I wont even bother putting up other links - those interested may google for jih*d and andhra pradesh and Kasim Rizvi, to get all the interesting tales.

The current leader of these brave men, went on a trip to the Middle East and posed around with the leaders of Hezbollah, nice guys to be sure.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/90202139@N00/264787259/

Mark another +1 for the Indian Govt. and the kind of leadership we have had from independence, which has a good tolerance for these laudable activities. Oh wait, what do we have here?

http://tinyurl.com/3x66xtz

Sure, visionary leadership to make a new "enlightened" India & deal with the troubles in Kashmir. Public memory in India is the shortest in the world, and if one mentions it, out come the attacks and ridicule.

And guess who is part of the delegation to Kashmir? Scroll right down.
http://www.asianage.com/india/rahul-bac ... ets-pm-199

Yeah, things will get better in modern India, after all, the communal right wing types are not in charge, but the liberal, savvy, intelligent, youthful, secular leadership who will solve the Kashmir problem. Sure, like they "solved" all of Indias problems the past how many years

[Dipanker]

^^ Could you email your post to a WKK mailing list? Let them read it learn something!

I hope BRF maintains such an emailing list!

[shiv]

The pits was in today's NDTV debate on Kashmir which was thankfuly hosted by a more neutral Vikram Chandra than our favourite, Madam Burkha.

The BR "poster boy", Gautam Navlakha, was on the show and he actually managed to call the Kashmiri Pandit org as a "communal, neo-fascist" organisation!!!!

This is what our country has come to...get driven out to your religion and if you protest against that, get called fascists by the "liberals"!!!

Truely blood boiling stuff...

Sum.. I find it amazing that you can actually sit it out through these shows. The people are selected to fight and I think it's called big fight also.

[Prem]

Indian Secularists are like fishermen who has lost the capacity to smell the rotton fish in their pocket . Living with filth does make one use to and immune to filthy enviorenment . Onlee an outsider can open the door and bring in the fresh air and may be rejuvinate the sense to smell the mental,social filth represented by Kashmiri Wahabi JIhadi Fasadi. Media must make sure that Indians know and publically discuss the religious nature of warfare imposed on them in Indian State of J&K.

[shiv]

There is an intensive demand, and sought to be viciously imposed wherever ideas are exchanged - that the Kashmiri separatist type of violence should always be explained away by economic demand, life aspirations, neglect, supposed repression or feelings or repression, needling from "outside" - but never ever linked to "inside", from within one's faith, from within the country and region, from within its historical continuity, aspirations that developed in a different period of barbaric sway of one faith over others. Search everywhere else but the real reasons - if you do you are demonizing a faith.

Not jut India - but there has been a global level dhimmitutde in tippy-toeing around what is a very ancient Islamist tactic. That is to pick up a grievance - organize a mob, ensure some deaths and then convert one grievance into two (original one plus mreder and suppression).

The internal dynamics of how the grievance is organized (howls of Muslims being suppressed, discriminated, Quran says blahblah) never comes out in the open. Only the grievance for which the original mob came and the murder of an "innocent person" in the mob becomes the new grievance. This is the tactic of all Islamist mobs anywhere in the world. I am certain that if a deep enough sociological study is done of patterns of education and memes - you will find links leading out of basic texts that teach ho to do this. I betcha. But for that you have to look at the ways in which conversations and sermons are conducted. I have seen hints in Pakistani liberal writing.

From here the same Islamist mob and leaders have a very clear picture of governance systems. All stable governance rests around the government having the maximum coercive power. The instrument of that coercive power is a police or army. Mobs always start with attacking that police or army. The Geelani or the Hafiz Saeed will never ever be in that mob. He will sit in the background waiting for the widows to be created for further use. The mob is of young yahoos whose elders have told them that they are screwed. They attack the security apparatus. Someone gets killed and there is your "additional grievance". The funeral procession is a mob - and that mob ensures some violence in the name of mourning. Someone gets hurt/killed and you have grievance number 3. The intent always it to provoke the security apparatus into reacting to create grievances. Once the security apparatus is weakened by attacks and accusations of excesses - the Islamist mob can take over.

What never emerges is how the mob was instigated in the first place and that is always an "islamic grievance", The faith is being attacked. You can expect stonewalling Pakistan Cricket Board like denial if you say this - but this is what is going on.

Terrorism against soft targets was only a desperate measure because it was not possible to bring the security apparatus down. That was a self goal - so they are back to targeting the governance system

[shiv]

Indian Secularists are like fishermen who has lost the capacity to smell the rotton fish in their pocket . Living with filth does make one use to and immune to filthy enviorenment . Onlee an outsider can open the door and bring in the fresh air and may be rejuvinate the sense to smell the mental,social filth represented by Kashmiri Wahabi JIhadi Fasadi. Media must make sure that Indians know and publically discuss the religious nature of warfare imposed on them in Indian State of J&K.

Prem the nature of the secular beast is that you are communal if you fight secularism. If you (theorectically) are a BJP supporter and you speak like this you are instantly branded communal and the party also gets smeared and along with it the RSS.

There is a rhetorical "Catch 22" argument that one can make about the BJP

"Is the BJP communal?"
"No"
"Then the BJP is secular"

So you see arguing against the principle of secularism is, in my view a self goal. It is misplaced and misapplied secularism that is is the problem. Not secularism. There is a fine difference here and having too many people fighting secularism itself is a self goal.