J & K news and discussion

[brihaspati]

PrasadZ wrote
"Nobody should ever miss or deny an Islamic link to terror if it should ever occur again because people who hold moderate, civilized, wise, secular and enlightened opinions such as you do would be less likely to call Islamic terror as Islamic terror. That fear is higher on this forum than the Islam provoked violence. "
Shivji, I wish the fear were unfounded. FWIW, many WKK sympathisers like me re-evaluated the situation after suffering 26/11.
IMO, the discussion of historical wrongs is tangential to understanding the modern situation. Of course, its understandable why the discussion delves into centuries ago history and many times, I find them instructive (isnt that why I lurk ). My apologies if you (or Airavat) think I derail it

It is not tangential. There is a again a tendency to fix a particular event or time point in the immediate past and claim that all else follows sequentially from that event - such as the so-called Babri-mosque demolition or Gujarat violence - and nothing previous to that mother-of-all events is relevant. Or the Afghan anti-Soviet [which actually started off before Soviets actually landed up with their army - and against modernization attempts by western educated portions of the Afghan army and urban Leftists] insurgency.

The fundamental blunder that is ignored in this logic is that if such a train of events always has to have a starting event, why should that starting mother-of-all events be not descended from other previous events? If all recent events are traceable in a direct linkage to a single event in the immediate past - why cannot that event itself be linked in a chain of inevitability with other events in its "immediate past"? And hence back to "ancient" incidents as you represent? if every atrocity committed by Muslim groups is a reaction to some atrocity on them by some non-Muslim group in the past - why should not the non-Muslim group also get the benefit of a similar logic that any atrocity they have committed on the Muslim also stemmed from a reaction to previous Muslim atrocities on them?

To really deny the role of ideology and past forms of that ideology with current interpretations you have to deny this very "historicity" argument being used to explain as to why current Muslim groups carry out atrocities. That is a mighty self-contradiction in logic - but I am not sure pro-recent-event-explanators will be up to recognizing such logical self-contradictions.

"Mr PrasadZ, what do you know about the Kashmiri terrorism. The first thing these people did was ethnic cleansing of hindus. If ethnic cleansing of hindus is not religious bigotry then I am not sure what is religious bigotry."
Of course, it is religious bigotry. The answer, IMO, is to remove religion from the equation, not by introducing another.

To remove religion from the equation you have to delegitimize it and deny its claim to come in between the citizen and the rashtra - something that has been done only on the "Hindu", and is a continuous Indian rashtryia project to unilaterally redefine it so that it can never ever influence political action. Tell me why has not that been done on Islam or any of the other religions raging in their freedom of action and political claims? More importantly because these religions claim exclusive right to religiously motivated political action as an integrated and core part of their belief - so that by trying to take away that right you are apparently attacking the faith?

It is a complete and total ignorance of a comprehensive study of the history of Islam not only in India but wherever it has tried to or successfully penetrated right from its inception - that turns up in the fatuous declarations that there is a supposed clean break and rupture between "original" Islam and its supposed modern "reinterpretations". Because people do not comprehensively and comparatively study history not only in time but also over regions and communities such errors creep up. Nowhere it is more evident than here in our discussions when we discuss current situation in J&K and try to wash away the historical and religious continuity of the phenomenon and the primary reason why we never ever solve the Islamic insurgency problem anywhere over the subcontinent.

"Kashmir valley goes its own way then with it India's pluralism will also go and a soul of India."
To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt. Of course, as an ordinary civilian, I have no idea whether thats the popular perception. take it as you will. For myself, I havent seen a convincing case for Kashmir as essential to India's pluralism and I am always surprised so much is made of their rantings

why should "pluralism" be affected by what happens in Kashmir? After all isn't it the dogma that "Indian pluralism" is somehow an inherent feature of India [now which India or which group of Indians - that always seems to be the sole responsibility of the oh-so-philosophical-tolerant-of-everything-including-genocide-on-Hindus-only Hindu] and it was so as a kind of timeless Indian "value" which the absolute majority of Indian non-Muslims take as the one and only supreme value of their life? Or is it the fear that seeing what Kashmiri dancing is really about - that about establishing a faith over all others - exposes the mythical dogmatic claims about peaceful-Sufi-Islamic conversion of India - and that is the real danger? After all if Kashmiri Muslims can act this way - then it shows that the so-called show-case place of Sufism in India, and the supposed true face of the faith - with all its mythical claims of tolerance and peace - is not and never was an inherent value - the way Indian pluralism is claimed to be! If it was inherent then peace and tolerance would have lasted through all provocations of supposed repression just as Indian pluralism seems to have lasted through Islamist atrocities!

Isn't it time to question your own logic - at least in the context of Kashmir?

[Muppalla]

Must consider past pledges to J&K: Chidambaram

http://www.hindustantimes.com/Must-cons ... 01945.aspx

"Over the years, several promises have been made to the people of Jammu and Kashmir, and we should act on those
promises," Chidambaram (65) told Hindustan Times. “Based on the agreements and accords of 1952, 1975, and 1986, we must address these promises.

Chidambaram indicated that Delhi would consider more autonomy for Kashmir. “The content of the demand for autonomy is a matter for dialogue and discussion,” he said.

Chidu should go too. He is spinning another drivel like that of his most famous "dream budgets". This fellow on paper looks like doing good here and there but he screws up royal at a higher level. Killing some naxals here are there could be done easily by some local DGPs and there is no need of HM. He is just after power in his own style and not for nation.

[Manishw]

Calling out every terrorist act of the Kashmiri youth as driven by Islam ensures you get no hearing from the 13% non hindu in India and a lukewarm hearing from the overwhelming majority of hindus who dont see their faith lessened by the choice of a few people like the Kashmiris.

These are words of heavy import and wisdom. However the words carry the implicit threat that if we keep talking like this we will be ignored. How can you speak for everyone else?

Nobody should ever miss or deny an Islamic link to terror if it should ever occur again because people who hold moderate, civilized, wise, secular and enlightened opinions such as you do would be less likely to call Islamic terror as Islamic terror. That fear is higher on this forum than the Islam provoked violence.

If I get hit on the head and am walking around with a bleeding head wound and I go to a doctor insisting that he should look at and bandage my hand, my leg, my butt and anything but my head, my wound is likely to fester from negligence and denial. That is precisely the problem.

[RamaY]

To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt. Of course, as an ordinary civilian, I have no idea whether thats the popular perception. take it as you will. For myself, I havent seen a convincing case for Kashmir as essential to India's pluralism and I am always surprised so much is made of their rantings

PrasadZ (Gee, I cannot say ji),

One of the most logical arguments I have heard in the recent past.. Please allow me explain how Kashmir is essential to India's pluralism...

Let us ignore UK/USA's geopolitical games to undermine Indian interests, and the creation of the islamic state of Pakistan to avoid unnecessary heartaches.

Starting 1993, Kashmir issue took a blatent religious dimension. This version of kashmir issue tries to bring a new paradigm onto Indian political scene. It tries to demonstrate that the majority population of an Indian state can kill or coerse the religious minorities to leave the state and then demand freedom or separation from India at the point of a gun.

If we allow this to happen, it will have strong echos all over Indian union. Next in line would be christian majority states in North East, closely followed by one or two Communist states. Afterall communism is another IEDology with little respect for pluralism (especially democrasy or hinduism if not all other religions).

That will trigger true Deepavali in Indian union. The evil yindoos will be emboldened by the successes of Islam, Christianity, and Communism would try to emulate them in all the states where they are majority. That would put the 13% (you may want to refer 2010 census for accurate numbers) or even more religious minorities in serious confusion, trouble, and at the mercy of yindooo-talibunnies. This, not any of the previous scenarios, would single-handedly threaten Indian Pluralism for all the retarted and b*ll-less dhimmi secularists.

In such a scenario Indian secularists and liberals like you would have no political space (what is the need for secularism and pluralism in a religiously homogeneous state?) to give moral cermons and would have to leave Indian political scene forever. Who would want that?

So It is in the best interests of Indian Secularism and Pluralism to fight against the wahabi terrorism in Kashmir today, as it would deny a similar opportunity to yindoo-phundamentalists in future.

Hope this puts things in perspective for you

[Bade]

Initially, this Kashmiriyat was being peddled by both KM and KP. This is what kept the so called Kashmiri identity separate from the Indian/Bharatiya identity. It then morphed into a largely Islamic movement at the opportune moment by getting rid of the KP out of the valley.

So even the religiously secular Indians need to understand that there are different layers of schisms that can be exploited at different times. Pluralism or secularism in Indian context is not religious alone, though what one is seeing in Kashmir valley is clearly religion inspired and nothing else at the moment and need to addressed as such. So all this Autonomy nonsense and promises to keep that PC is talking about is just BS.

[Manishw]

To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt.

Well to be honest Prasadz many yindoos consider Kashmir as Holy land.The pain the the butt is not Kashmir but the radical Kashimiri Muslim's with their radical ideologies trying to masquerade as religion as well as their sympathizer's.

[Manishw]

Initially, this Kashmiriyat was being peddled by both KM and KP.

Very Correct and boy they learn't the hard way about secularism as practiced in India.

[Kanson]

Quite a long litany of complaints, but all that basically comes down to two points..

1) That is that insidious effects of a Arabized fundamentalist islam that tears apart the social fabric of long settled and local muslim communities in the pursuit of an irredentist fundamentalist Islamic Ummah. The roots of that is is in the Gulf with their new found oil money and influence. India in fact caught the first wave of that , thanks to the procivilities of the Pakis who actively wanted it and elements of the local muslim community who are given towards fundamentalism.

2) There is a tremendous modernity deficit in EVERY muslim society and this WITHOUT EXCEPTION, compared to their neighbors of other faiths. Note , this is true at an AVERAGE and of course there will be individual muslims and groups who are as modern (in the larger sense of thought and civilizational aspirations and not the crude modern = wearing trousers and women wearing skirts and bikinis) as anyone else.

Yes, this modernity deficit is striking. Whether is is the east like malaysia /indonesia , India, middle east (christian and jew compared to muslims in ME, even among say Palestinians, Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqi etc) to west (Balkans) and even Stalin failed to modernize those societies (chechnya for eg) despite such coercion . Yes, the Shah of Iran and Ataturk in Turkey recognized that and tried to crash modernize their countries with varying degree of success (more successful in turkey, disaster in Iran) . It is striking when you talk to even folks like Albanians and others who you would have thought they were "modern" people like their neighbors from greece, croatia, slovenia etc, but it is jarring to hear stuff like blood money and diyas and other such medieval stuff. All the Turks I knew in US were the high brow , secular, pork eating and living near Bosporus Turks who would detest their more traditional country cousins.You just have to speak to Germans and French about the class of immigrants there and some of the complaints we tend to make in India about muslims being ghettoized , self segregated , unable to fit are all exactly the same.

That is the problem. That modernity deficit and the lack of any achievement to be proud of in the modern world gives rise to the cognitive dissonance in Islamic societies. They are given the self image that as the "last" revealed religion that they are the top of the heap , with say Islam Ver 5, Christanity Ver 3, Judaisim version 1 and others Ver 0 or something. Now when reality shows that you are zero and every other society is racing forward, that gives serious pisko logee takleef and that fundamentalism is I think a major defense response.

Into this is where the Arabized islam spread from the Middle East kindles the unsettled muslims in local societies.

Look at the latest on this here TODAY Radical Muslims on the rise in the Balkans . And F. Yugoslavia was one of the most integrated and well settled muslim socieites

Hi Vina ji,

No disrespect, but as i see, the two points that you highlighted are contradictory. If i may clarify, the phenomenon that was talked about was not started after Gulf oil money or after Paksitan got arbaized. I very much doubt non-muslims who lived under continous tension with muslim community for centuries could share such views. The phenomenon that is part of Islam can be equated to violent chemical reaction. To keep that reaction from not happening this must be kept in constant equillibrium or atleast dynamic. Whenever it moves away from equillibrium, there you expect all kinds of violence. I feel, that should be the correct description or explanation. In Indian history, that equillibrium was provided on one side by the intellectuals like Gandhi, Kabir, Shirdi baba etc who could galvanize the masses and provide needed discourse to keep those community at the verge of or into radicalization to maintain the balance/equillibrium. On the other side we have Sikhs and even more right are people like Ataturk who provided the needed equillibrium.

To understand this even better, how modern we are, we humans are still animals and have animal insticts, everyway. Religions or dogmas are meant to keep us as humans in all times even when we are emotionally unstable. But when the same religion and the pontiffs of that religion supports violence or to put it in better terms, creates necessary condition to espouse violence, then it doesnt matter whether it is arabs or indians or SE asians....we are into unceasing path of collision course time after time. If there is peace, that is temporary due to some equillibrium. That should be taken as calm before the storm. Kashmir movement is a microcosm of such phenomenon. Anyone fails to understand this is never going to solve the problem. As Le Chatelier principles says, the 'system' should react to maintain such 'equillibrium' in whatever way possible, to wean away these people from the 'phenomenon', perhaps permanently.

[chetak]

Guys,

Watch Farook Abdullah screwing karan thappad on CNN-IBN now.

karan thappad simply does not know to handle the situation.

Thappad is REALLY getting RAPED.

[praksam]

To be honest, I see Kashmir as geo strategically important but a pain in the butt.

Well to be honest Prasadz many yindoos consider Kashmir as Holy land.The pain the the butt is not Kashmir but the radical Kashimiri Muslim's with their radical ideologies trying to masquerade as religion as well as their sympathizer's.

I feel its more of our Historical,cultural and religious Identity.


Desecration of Hindu temples in Kashmir from the advent of Islam 1339 A.D.


http://www.kashmir-information.com/Atro ... ples8.html

[svinayak]

Does this sound familiar

Just as British diplomats had long feared, “the scramble to pick up the pieces [of the Ottoman Empire] might lead to a major war between the European powers,” WWI erupted.11 Christopher Layne provides an analysis:

Backed by Czarist Russia’s pan-Slavic foreign policy, Serbia attempted to foment unrest among Austria-Hungary’s restless South Slavs, with the aim of splitting them away from Austria-Hungary and uniting them with Serbia in a greater South Slav state—the eventual Yugoslavia. The Austro-Hungarians knew that this ambition, if realized, would cause the breakup of the Habsburg empire (and in fact, did so). In Vienna, Serbia came to be regarded as a threat to Austria-Hungary’s very existence. On July 2, 1914, the Austro-Hungarian Foreign Minister, Count Berchtold, told Emperor Franz Josef that to remain a great power, Austria-Hungary had no alternative but to go to war against Serbia. In July 1914, Austria-Hungary believed it could survive only by defeating the external powers that were exploiting its internal difficulties.... Austria-Hungary’s rulers, having weighed the balance, decided that “the risks of peace were now greater than the risks of war.”12

[CRamS]

Chetak:

You are right that some of them like Gautam Nivukula etc are "useful idiots" to the west. But nowadays I have encountered many a NRI who have bought into this crap that if Kashmiri Muslims want to leave, India should, because India is a democracy, and should not hold them against their will and commit human rights abuses. This kind tragic naivety just elicits a helpless grin in me, I feel its a waste of time even continuing a discussion with such ignorant chutiyas.

[nachiket]

Omar must know Army is not the enemy
--M J Akbar in TOIlet. Surprisingly good though.

Why is the Indian Army the one-point target of those who want to break India? The answer is uncomplicated. The police, whether state or central, cannot defend the territorial integrity of India. The Indian Army can. It is therefore in the interest of secessionists and their mentors in Islamabad to create discord between the Indian Army and the Indian state.

The Kashmir Jamaat has never made any secret of its objective, which is to merge the valley with Pakistan. It has financial and ideological links with Pakistan. It has deliberately disassociated itself from the Jamaat e-Islami in the rest of India. This slings-and-stones model was crafted to elicit world sympathy, and create a David versus Goliath confrontation. (David is a prophet of Islam as well, and lauded as a supreme instance of a jihadi in the holy Quran.)

[Jarita]

Chetak:

You are right that some of them like Gautam Nivukula etc are "useful idiots" to the west. But nowadays I have encountered many a NRI who have bought into this crap that if Kashmiri Muslims want to leave, India should, because India is a democracy, and should not hold them against their will and commit human rights abuses. This kind tragic naivety just elicits a helpless grin in me, I feel its a waste of time even continuing a discussion with such ignorant chutiyas.

Disdain is a useful tool with such folks. And am embarrassed but females are more influenced by the A roy, Kavita Ramdas nd Shabana variety

[VikramS]

Chetak:

You are right that some of them like Gautam Nivukula etc are "useful idiots" to the west. But nowadays I have encountered many a NRI who have bought into this crap that if Kashmiri Muslims want to leave, India should, because India is a democracy, and should not hold them against their will and commit human rights abuses. This kind tragic naivety just elicits a helpless grin in me, I feel its a waste of time even continuing a discussion with such ignorant chutiyas.

CRamS

When these ignoramus talk about democracy and human rights, point out a few things.

1. The US Civil War: Democracy does not imply the right to secede. Period.
2. Point out that it is not all Kashmiris or even all KMs. Even the separatists like Lone admit that they do not care about the wishes of the people of Laddakh, the people of Jammu, the non-urban KMs in the valley like the Gujjar.
3. It is more like the people of Bronx trying to secede. It is just that they are convenient mules for other powers to exploit.

[brihaspati]

Omar must know Army is not the enemy
--M J Akbar in TOIlet. Surprisingly good though.

Why is the Indian Army the one-point target of those who want to break India? The answer is uncomplicated. The police, whether state or central, cannot defend the territorial integrity of India. The Indian Army can. It is therefore in the interest of secessionists and their mentors in Islamabad to create discord between the Indian Army and the Indian state.

The Kashmir Jamaat has never made any secret of its objective, which is to merge the valley with Pakistan. It has financial and ideological links with Pakistan. It has deliberately disassociated itself from the Jamaat e-Islami in the rest of India. This slings-and-stones model was crafted to elicit world sympathy, and create a David versus Goliath confrontation. (David is a prophet of Islam as well, and lauded as a supreme instance of a jihadi in the holy Quran.)

Actually its the age-old dilemma of Islamism in India. The man who found "Harit-Pradesha" carved out of UP where Muslims "dominate" - a positive and attractive outcome, will naturally be concerned. I am not sure that he exactly consciously feels all of the arguments that I am going to give, but those arguments is a parsimonious explanattion for similar sentiments of identifying anti-IA moves with Pak.

The ideology of separate Muslim homeland - where Muslims and Islam lords it over all others - was a direct consequence of Islamists from UP, and particularly the Deobandis who still flourish within India. The UPite Deeobandis were against the Partition - since correctly they understaood that their great project of Islamization of the whole subcontinent would suffer for the short term gain. They are also losing the leadership of Islamism over the entire subcontinent if more parts strike out independently.

Daneger is that those individual parts may have their own ambitions to become the supreme Islamic power centre and the UPite Islamists then run the risk of having to fight co-religionists for supreme power.

If KM move against IA then even without Akbar's pointer a lot of non-Muslims will come to the conclusion that KM are after all against India, and that will be something very difficult to whitewash with the thickest paint of non-communal labels. From there, with all the uncanny resemblances to other Islamist movements elsewhere - those very same non-Muslim Indians may come to even more stark conclusions. Out goes any hope for a "Harit Pradesh" or unified Caliphate of India then!

[Thomas Kolarek]

** Deleted **

[A_Gupta]

** Reference deleted **

It may be better to let him stew in the fact of the utter futility of his existence.

[Manishw]

A_Gupta A better example would be set if he was tried in court for being a traitor and then hanged speedily to restore rule of law rather then letting him live and concocting various spins for the same end(also known as taqqiya).

[CRamS]

For those who think Omar Abdullah is to be blamed for the current crisis in the valley, please watch the interview with Farooq Abdullah conducted by thappad on IBN. I mean this was a viscous stratgey planned in Rawilpindi, perhaphs with a wink wink nod nod from Washington DC. The situation is so complex that anybody, Omar Abdullah or someone else, would have been caught unawares. I am not saying Omar Abdullah couldn't have done more, or he is doing a stellar job or anything, its just that he's been dealt a deck of cards that he has to live with, and blaming him is a sloppy, desparate exercise in trying to apportion blame to somebody in India, when the evil deeds are executed from somewhere else.

[Sanjay M]

(TIME)Is Iranian TV to Blame for Deadly Protests in Kashmir?

[geeth]

My gut feeling is that the Mufti Family has a fair share in the current trouble making. IMO, they are the agents of terror, at least from the Rubiya Syed kidnap drama onwards. Put them behind bar before any talk.

[vina]

While much of the folks here are fulminating against "KMs" , it will to keep in mind that it is self defeating to marginalize an entire population based on the actions of a loony fringe. KM != Paki . It is an important distinction that must be kept in mind.

* OT part removed *

Remember, India != Pakiland or Soddy Barbaria among others , precisely for this reason.

[Manishw]

While much of the folks here are fulminating against "KMs" , it will to keep in mind that it is self defeating to marginalize an entire population based on the actions of a loony fringe. KM != Paki . It is an important distinction that must be kept in mind.

Vina Ji with all respects are these people a loony fringe? or the rest are just sleepers who in the due course of time will do a Kashmir on India.

Experience/History of the past 1000 yrs. upto the present in India and across the world shows that 'the loony fringe exists as long as they are not roughly 30% of the population.After that it is balkanizing which takes place under a rabbid ideology where the loony fringe becomes mainstream.

[shiv]

Remember, India != Pakiland or Soddy Barbaria among others , precisely for this reason.

Indian Muslims are doing exactly the right thing by bringing up grievances and asking for sops. Their main self goal has been violence. If the violence stops they will become like other Indians and succeed in getting what India has to offer them. .

[vera_k]

** Deleted **

[vina]

** Deleted **

[Anindya]

am watching NDTV - National Conference is making a very strong play for autonomy. Apparently, PC told the conference this morning in Srinagar, that "some kind of autonomy will have to be conceded to the people of Kashmir".

[abhishek_sharma]

^ *sigh*

[Sanku]

B-ji's predictions are coming true.

[sum]

am watching NDTV - National Conference is making a very strong play for autonomy. Apparently, PC told the conference this morning in Srinagar, that "some kind of autonomy will have to be conceded to the people of Kashmir".

Also, the NC minister is mentioning completely removing AFSPA from entire valley and not just selected areas... Interesting to see what will be the conclusion of this meeting? Have a feeling lots of "human touches" will be provided as a thank you for all the rioting, arson and general hooliganism..

[AbhishekD]

Eventhough this question may sound naive, but I want to understand from the gurus why does removal of AFSPA amount to appeasement?

I dont know that whether AFSPA is an important tool in the counter insurgency operation. Indeed the counter insurgency grid these days is so strong that terrorism has become a thing of past in the kashmir valley. Today we are grappling with a political situation where a normal kashmiri is under siege due to excessive security.

An argument can definitely be extended that as terrorism has been reduced and the people in kashmir want normalcy to return, AFSPA can be removed and the army brought back to the barracks. It is a very difficult decision politically, but it is the right direction and the army cannot be in the streets of kashmir valley forever and the reduction of terrorism can be a first step towards pulling the army back to the barracks.

Nobody is talking about the dilution of AFSPA, indeed want we can consider is a gradual approach of removing army from the streets of kashmir valley and concentrating army's effort in counter insurgency. If terrorism returns to the valley, which is highly unlikely given the kind of upsurge in the valley, then the situation can be reassessed.

My personal feeling is that a bold step that would redefine the role of army in the valley and a return to barracks with a strong counter-insurgency grid aided by the Rashtriya Rifles can be the best medicine for the valley and an arrangement such as this can be worked out with the Omar Abdullah Government in Kashmir.

Can the gurus in the forum poke holes in this situation

[Manishw]

-self delete-

[Pranav]

I dont know that whether AFSPA is an important tool in the counter insurgency operation. Indeed the counter insurgency grid these days is so strong that terrorism has become a thing of past in the kashmir valley. Today we are grappling with a political situation where a normal kashmiri is under siege due to excessive security.

An argument can definitely be extended that as terrorism has been reduced and the people in kashmir want normalcy to return, AFSPA can be removed and the army brought back to the barracks. It is a very difficult decision politically, but it is the right direction and the army cannot be in the streets of kashmir valley forever and the reduction of terrorism can be a first step towards pulling the army back to the barracks.

Nobody is talking about the dilution of AFSPA, indeed want we can consider is a gradual approach of removing army from the streets of kashmir valley and concentrating army's effort in counter insurgency. If terrorism returns to the valley, which is highly unlikely given the kind of upsurge in the valley, then the situation can be reassessed.

My personal feeling is that a bold step that would redefine the role of army in the valley and a return to barracks with a strong counter-insurgency grid aided by the Rashtriya Rifles can be the best medicine for the valley and an arrangement such as this can be worked out with the Omar Abdullah Government in Kashmir.

Can the gurus in the forum poke holes in this situation

Army is needed for COIN and without AFSPA they need a warrant before every operation, constantly look over their shoulders for ISI-sponsored professional human-rights wallahs (rather rabid-dog-rights wallahs). Meanwhile infiltration from TSP is ramping up as we speak.

AFSPA is irrelevant as far as the current stone-pelting fascist hooligans are concerned .... they are mostly being dealt with by police and CRPF.

[AbhishekD]

Army is needed for COIN and without AFSPA they need a warrant before every operation, constantly look over their shoulders for ISI-sponsored professional human-rights wallahs (rather rabid-dog-rights wallahs). Meanwhile infiltration from TSP is ramping up as we speak.

Ok, so what is the chain of command when a COIN operation is launched. Does the local commander on the ground operates independently upon reception of intelligence about a terrorist module during a COIN operation. What I am trying to understand is that what is the difference between action against a terrorist module in Delhi and in Kashmir. I am just trying to see how the chain of command can be made more flexible to incorporate the requirements of local kashmiris and create some political capital for the present government.

Much of the grievances in the present situation is about the overwhelming presence of security forces in the streets of kashmir and further the inevitable human rights violations that come with the heavy presence of security forces. If the situation can be moved in the right direction without compromising on security that can be an ideal solution

[Sanku]

AFSPA allows IA to operate with its own chain of command, the IA does not have to ask the local authorities or wait for the invitation before taking any action once they decide it is necessary. It is thus a enabling legislation to allow IA to be effective in countering insurgency.

Secondly, you have been told this before AFSPA and IA have nothing do with presence of security forces actually interacting with the civilian population of Kashmir valley, those security forces are J&K police and CRPF who are deputed along with them (and under the civilian chain of command)

Further more there are no inevitable human rights violation or anything of that sort happening in Kashmir -- kindly stop disinformation campaign immediately.

As for three months back, 50000 Pandits gathered back in a temple in Kashmir and prayed, early discussion about them going back to Kashmir and reclaiming their lost property was being discussed.

Obviously the anger is because the Wahhabi's in Kashmir valley are not allowed to get the Saudi Barbaria version of Sharia and control over all of J&K over the Shia Gujjars, the Buddhist ladhaki's, the Jammu Hindu's and their own peaceful KM who came out last year and voted in droves. Discussion of AFSPA is to remove the focus from real issue.

Let me ask you, what is your solution for handling these externally funded and religiously motivated bigots and fanatics?

[Manishw]

Let me ask you, what is your solution for handling these externally funded and religiously motivated bigots and fanatics?

Bingo Sanku Ji but now since people following this rabbid ideology will have no answer so Taqqiya might be seen in action.

[sum]

Eventhough this question may sound naive, but I want to understand from the gurus why does removal of AFSPA amount to appeasement?

I dont know that whether AFSPA is an important tool in the counter insurgency operation. Indeed the counter insurgency grid these days is so strong that terrorism has become a thing of past in the kashmir valley. Today we are grappling with a political situation where a normal kashmiri is under siege due to excessive security.
....
Can the gurus in the forum poke holes in this situation

Couple of IA ex-chiefs answered this very question 3 days back on TimesNow as to why should many parts of valley have AFSPA when no army is present there. Their take was:

The main supply route to Leh/Ladakh and Siachen is through the valley ( NH 1D) and these two areas are virtually hostage to the valley route. Hence, the IA needs the AFSPA in these areas to protect their convoys and it is this act which has prevented frenzied mobs from ever trying to target these convoys ( on paki insistence) since it would mean sure death for the rioters.

If the AFSPA is removed, the convoy commander would have no recourse if mobs attack his supplies and the commander will think twice about saving the supplies since he might be hauled off by local police if he fires to protect the convoy..

[Chandragupta]

While much of the folks here are fulminating against "KMs" , it will to keep in mind that it is self defeating to marginalize an entire population based on the actions of a loony fringe. KM != Paki . It is an important distinction that must be kept in mind.

Remember, India != Pakiland or Soddy Barbaria among others , precisely for this reason.

If KMs are fulminating against India & burning the tricolour day in & day out, just to achieve their quest of an Wahabi-Sunni Islamic State, why blame the rest of us for marginalizing them? If it looks like a Paki, if it acts like a Paki, if he talks like a Paki, then it is a Paki, no?
[/rant off]

[Sanku]

Guys, its the J&K thread, lets avoid falling into Vina's trap of taking the discussion everywhere on real issues (I can understand his compulsions on needing to distract the discussion)

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_30 ... er_1439365

The stone throwing et al seems to have made people forget that its J&K that we are talking off, and terrorism there is quite active and well thank you very much (so IA and AFSPA are still needed)

As many as 30 terrorists have been killed in army operations between September 1 and 16 in Kashmir Valley, an army spokesperson said today.

Of these, 15 terrorists were killed on the Line of Control (LOC) and the remaining in the hinterland in the Valley during the period,