J & K news and discussion

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RamaY
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

This Andrabi is a paki to the core.. look at her famous quote...
I don't believe in Kashmiriyat, I don't believe in nationalism. I believe that there are just two nations—Muslims and non-Muslims. I am a Muslim; I am least bothered whether I will be called a Kashmiri. I'm Andrabi, I'm from the Syed dynasty. I'm not actually Kashmiri, :oops: {What would geelani say???} I'm Arab, :rotfl: my ancestors had come from Arabia to Central Asia. I believe in Islamic nationalism.

So as far as our ideology is concerned, Kashmir is not a part of India because united India was divided on the basis of religion. No one can deny this fact. We want our future too to be solved on the basis of religion.

'Inshallah, Kashmir Will Become Part Of Pakistan'
Why is she a Paki???
Desperate to see that her child's education does not suffer, she had also approached the courts {Why can't she take a Sharia letter and apply for a seat in western university?} for a direction that the document be provided to her son.

The boy, who secured 73 percent marks in class 12th, had applied for passport in March this year through his uncle as he was minor at the time of filing the application.

Ironically, Andrabi, who is struggling hard for her son's passport so that his studies are not hampered, had issued a statement earlier saying "losses of life, material and the education of children are inevitable...
***

Ramanaji - It is unfortunate that the kid is paying for his parents' bad karma; but that is universal dharma.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by BijuShet »

ramana wrote:BijuShet, Lalmohan is talking of her husband who is supposed to be the lead of current situation.

I think the child should not suffer for his parents' deeds. bad enough growing up in that atmosphere.
My bad Ramanasaar and Lalmohanji. I saw Andrabi and did not know about Mr. Andrabi alias Muhammad Qasim (Aashiq Hussain Faktoo). To educate the rest here let me present the romantic love story of this couple as written in the TOI. (Posting in full)

A troubled union
Pradeep Thakur, TNN, Sep 19, 2010, 04.46am IST
He was 22, tall and handsome. She was 27, bubbly, attractive and looking for a husband. When they first met — at their wedding in 1990 — Ashiq Hussain Faktoo was already one of Kashmir's most wanted jihadis and a founder of the state's largest militant outfit, Hizbul Mujahideen.

His bride, Asiya Andrabi, was also a household name. She headed the secessionist women's group, Dukhtaran-e-Millat. Faktoo and Andrabi's troubled union, scarred by almost continuous separation, might almost be the story of Kashmir's turbulent relationship with India.

Andrabi became an activist in the cause of gender equality. She would exhort women to fight male domination by assembling at mosques — hitherto off-limits — for religious discourses. Then she changed course and began to fight for political, not gender "freedom". Dukhtaran-e-Millat activists became undercover agents and a vital source of information for militants.

This was the moment Andrabi wanted to get married. There were many suitable boys, for she was attractive and wealthy and belonged to an upper-caste Saeed family. A biochemistry graduate from Kashmir University, Andrabi shelved plans for a postgraduate course at Dalhousie.

Faktoo was five years her junior and fascinated by tales of Andrabi's exploits. From deep within his hiding place in the forests of north Kashmir, Faktoo proposed marriage. She agreed. She was keen to marry into the jihadi cause. The nikah was scheduled at a rented house in Baspora near Faktoo's hideout.

But those were troubled times in Kashmir. Militancy had peaked. Andrabi, whose outfit had been banned that year, was wanted by the security forces. The groom was on the run. Army intelligence got wind of the wedding and both bride and groom had to flee.

Several days lapsed and there seemed little chance of Andrabi and Faktoo ever hooking up. But a vigorous search by Andrabi's brother put the family in touch with Faktoo, who was now in the upper reaches of the forests strung along the north Kashmir border. Another date was fixed for the wedding. This time, they didn't rent a house. Instead, the groom arrived to claim his bride in an autorickshaw, his turban hidden in a small basket.

Andrabi still remembers the day, October 30, 1990, she saw her six-feet-tall husband for the first time. He apologized profusely for being unable to buy her a wedding ring. She reassured him, insisting she would have been happy with the present of a pistol instead.

Marriage was no bed of roses for the couple. With the security forces hot on their trail, they were forced to change hideouts three times on their wedding night. They were arrested two years later, their six-month-old son in tow. Their baby spent the next 30 months in prison with his parents, until they were released on bail.

In two decades of married live, husband and wife have lived together just three years. In 2000, Faktoo was rearrested and sentenced to a life term. Till recently, Andrabi was on the run.

To many, they are to blame for their interrupted domesticity. Why challenge the system from without?
But they seem driven. Faktoo is considered the mastermind of the ongoing violence in the state because he is the mentor of Masrat Alam of the Muslim League, who is spearheading the unrest. Andrabi was arrested at the end of August for offences under the Public Safety Act, which include waging war against the country and inciting violence.

Faktoo and Andrabi's story lies at the heart of Kashmir's saga of unrest. It is a tale of missed chances, anger, separation and violence.

Could Faktoo have been prevented from linking up with others to resurrect a movement that is now being compared to the 1989 insurgency, minus the arms? In 2002, Ashiq recalled the 1989 movement in conversation with this correspondent: "My classmates and I decided that the time was ripe to take up the path of aggression, to snatch the freedom we had been denied for four decades." The philosophy remains much the same today; only the guns have been replaced with stones.

There have been many chances to stem the unrest. In 2005, the PM met Hurriyat leaders in the search for a lasting solution. During the negotiations, the separatists specifically asked for the release of three detainees, including Faktoo and a time-bound review of the cases against "political prisoners". The government did nothing and till now, the PM did not even think it important to reconvene talks with Kashmiri outfits.

India has missed many opportunities to influence the collective psyche, using leaders they would believe. Mirwaiz Maulvi Farooq, father of the current Mirwaiz Umar Farooq and one of Kashmir's most revered leaders after Sheikh Abdullah, was assassinated in May 1990. Exactly 12 years later, the progressive and secular Hurriyat leader, Abdul Gani Lone, was killed. Lone had mass appeal and was insistent on peaceful resolution. Then, Fazal Haq Qureshi who was involved in peace talks between Hizbul Mujahideen (HM) and the Indian government, was killed. His friend and chief commander of HM in Kashmir, Abdul Majid Dar was shot dead in March 2003 when he made a similar attempt. By now, strategic thinkers in New Delhi should have realized it might make sense to work with people like Faktoo and Andrabi to build bridges.

The moral of the story? Considering the government has not managed to restrict Faktoo and Andrabi despite putting them behind bars, it could try a different route – allow them, on conditional bail, to live peacefully together with their two sons and use their fiery convictions and leadership skills to clear some space for peace.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Yeah but all those leaders were killed by TSP or its proxies just as they were about to make breakthrough.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Carl_T »

The Andrabis as a community are hardcore separatists. They are of Iranian origin I think.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Pioneer op-ed

Kashmir cannot be left to Neros
September 21, 2010 1:11:21 AM

Chandan Mitra

Separatists may or may not turn up to meet the all-party delegation in Srinagar, but India's stake in Jammu & Kashmir must not be diluted, whatever happens

When the all-party delegation visits Srinagar on Monday will it drive through empty streets manned by gun-toting security forces, armoured vehicles lined on roads throughout the city, residents peeping out of half-shuttered windows to watch a heavily guarded motorcade zipping by, sirens blaring? Will this delegation drive into the picturesque Raj Bhawan next to a verdant golf course and wait fruitlessly for various supposedly aggrieved Kashmiri groups to come and meet them? What happens if nobody of consequence turns up and the political leaders are forced to receive briefings only from the Army, other security forces and the bureaucracy? Will the grand gesture of the rest of India reaching out to Kashmiris, trying to engage separatist groups in a dialogue, come a cropper?

We would like to believe it will be otherwise. We would like to hope that Kashmiri groups will respond to some extent even if not in full measure to the effort to initiate a political dialogue after more than a year of intermittent violence that has culminated in sustained closure of the Valley for over 100 days now, either due to large scale violence, prolonged curfew or recurrent hartals called by separatists.

I was in Srinagar in June 2009 when the Shopian incident shattered the relatively peaceful Valley. After the 2008 State Assembly poll that saw an incredibly large voter turnout leading to Mr Omar Abdullah’s assumption of the Chief Minister’s office amid huge optimism, Kashmir seemed to be on the mend, gradually getting over the turbulence of the previous year in connection with the Amarnath Yatra. In retrospect, I think the Shopian controversy was a deliberate, pre-planned move by the separatists to regain their dwindling relevance post-election. They reactivated their well-oiled rumour mill to convince a large number of Valley residents that two young women had been raped and murdered by the security forces. Subsequent inquiries proved the entire story to be a diabolic concoction, but India-baiters had succeeded in their aim of destabilising the political equilibrium and discrediting the young Chief Minister.

Thereafter, a clever mix or real and imagined grievances were whipped up. Meanwhile the separatists’ puppeteers across the border thought hard and advised a change of strategy. The Army had been all too successful in gunning down mercenaries or misguided Kashmiris who had crossed the LoC to train for their elusive pursuit of jihad. The number of active terrorists in the Valley had come down from 3,000-plus in 2007-8 to less than 600 at last count. So, the jihad route wasn’t paying the dividends ISI hoped for. The switch in strategy entailed enhanced funding to Valley-based overground separatists to whip up frenzy through sustained brainwashing of ordinary people, especially the youth.

Arguably, the State Government’s ineptitude did not help matters. The complete absence of a political approach not only deepened the alienation of the protesters from the system but also caused a vacuum, which was quickly filled by a new breed of faceless rioters who managed to sideline even hardened separatists. The National Conference’s intensive network, meticulously built by Sheikh Abdullah, which survived over two decades of militancy (beginning 1989), suddenly became inoperative. Mufti Mohammed Sayeed’s PDP withdrew into a shell, presumably delighting at the Abdullah family’s discomfiture, and resumed playing footsy with the separatists. Privately, PDP leaders said it served the Congress right for severing ties and hitching itself to the NC once again.

The Congress has long ceased to be a significant political force in the Valley, even if it has enjoyed access to power by virtue of shifting coalition arrangements. The only political force that could have stood as a buffer between misguided stone-pelters and the state, namely the National Conference, is in a shambles. Even its MLAs, leave alone grassroots leaders feel alienated as a result of Mr Omar Abdullah’s bureaucracy-driven style of governance. All this while, its coalition partner Congress stood by as a mere spectator. It, therefore, ill behoves the Prime Minister to confess governance-deficit now that things have spun out of control. If there is such a deficit, and indeed there is, what was the Congress doing all these months? Was the party leadership paralysed because of Mr Rahul Gandhi’s personal friendship with Abdullah III and nobody dare question the inexperienced Crown Prince’s wisdom?

It must, therefore, be recognised that Kashmir is too serious an issue to be left to the Neros in Srinagar and New Delhi. The Indian nation has a huge and collective stake in Kashmir. We cannot allow haphazard, immature and politically disastrous steps to be taken by a pussy-footing Government. To begin with, the question of dilution and/or gradual removal of the Armed Forces Special Powers Act from the Valley must be discarded as the red herring that it is. The Army is not out on the streets battling stone-throwing crowds and thus the removal of AFSPA is not of consequence to the present crisis.

Admittedly, the number of civilian deaths in firing by security forces has been unacceptably high — 92 till last Saturday — and better methods of crowd control must be found. Every civilian death enables separatists to whip up the cry of martyrdom and raise the pitch for ‘azadi’. While acting firmly to stop the Intifada-generated virus of stone pelting, security forces probably need to deal with the situation more humanely in terms of barricades, frisking of common people and other routine measures that become a daily irritant and perceived to be humiliating. Somebody has to break the spiral of violence, both separatist-driven and state-directed. This is where the political class has to step in. If the NC is no longer capable of playing that role, other options need to be tried. Mehbooba Mufti’s participation in the all-party meeting in Delhi last week and her apparent willingness to resume active political intervention in the Valley is a welcome development in this context.

It is also important that the all-party delegation does some plain speaking to whoever eventually comes across to meet and if none of consequence does, the talking should be done through the media. Greater autonomy, for example, is yet another red herring thrown by the National Conference to hide its inept handling. When crowds are roaring “azadi” and debunking the idea of autonomy, which they say has lost credibility, why appear favourably disposed to a notion that will only whet the separatists’ appetite for more? We should not forget that the real agenda of separatists has been scripted in Islamabad and that is merger of the Valley with Pakistan. They have now started talking of ‘minority’ areas like Jammu and Ladakh being irrelevant to the Kashmir ‘dispute’ and are demanding plebiscite in the Valley.

So, irrespective of whether there is meaningful dialogue in Srinagar on Monday, India’s stance on Kashmir must not be compromised. In any case, meaningful dialogue can happen only when the atmosphere is conducive to talks, not when curfew and hartal are feeding on each other. Also, separatists need to be told that dialogue will be productive only when the unacceptable war cry of ‘azadi’ is abandoned for good.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Jarita »

Carl_T wrote:The Andrabis as a community are hardcore separatists. They are of Iranian origin I think.

Arab
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

Few people here have suggested that we should repeal Art.370 and divide J&K into 3 namely Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. I just tried to dig into these 2 possibilities on practical terms. First of all, the Article 370 is a flaw in the start itself which mentions Art 238 will not be applicable to J&K--but the fact is Art 238 is no more and has been repealed but our Indian Constitution still has it under 1(a) of Art 370...anyways...my point is...this article says that a "Constituent Assembly" can make recommendations to President of India upon which Art 370 ceases to be operative or operates with exceptions and modifications. It means that elected representatives of all constituencies of J&K state constitute a "Constituent Assembly" which alone can make recommendations to PoI repeal Art 370. Does this not mean that INC in 1950s made a self goal?

anways..gatam gataha....my point is..as we are a democratic country..we have to abide by the rules defined within our Constitution and cannot bypass it to resolve the Kashmir issue...so taking 2008 results of J&K election as a benchmark we can see that NC,PDP,INC and BJP are 4 main parties that roost in J&K state. Now,in the coming up elections INC, BJP and NC have to somehow manage to secure and share the constituencies among them(I'd Like to see a landslide victory for BJP in entire Jammu and Ladakh districts).....there has to be no room for nutty cracky quaky mehbooba mufty's party...considering this as a scenario...can they form a "Constituent Assembly" to make recommendations to PoI to repeal Art.370 as provisioned by our Constitution?(I have blindly put my trust on NC here)...once Art.370 is repealed...will it not be easy for Central Govt to reorganize J&K state into Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh(this will secure Jammu and Ladakh from future violence by KMs)? Tourism and Trade with Jammu and Ladakh can be heightened as violence is not native to these 2 regions. We can welcome investments to these 2 new states thereby leaving a lesson to be learned by neighboring Kashmir State to objure violence and join Indian mainstream?...this is one practical approach that I can think of...

The current constitution of J&K prohibits Indian Union from making any changes in Name, Area or Boundaries of J&K state(all regions ruled by idiot Hari Singh including PoK) without the consent of its legislature....so forget about Jammuiat or Ladakhiat to be flanked against Kashmiriat...it doesn't achieve anything in accordance to our Constitution. Art 370 blocks this "division" to happen...don't know what INC netas of 50s were on... :evil:....but yes if the Jammuiat and Ladakhiat feeling can be used to demean Kashmiriyat's nuisance...it should come up in the form of political parties of Jammu and Ladakh....whenever PDP or separatists make sound....these political parties should start a wave of rallies against them and let this be covered by our media.....this will discredit KMs ask of ajaadi.

just my thoughts...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chetak »

Venkarl wrote:Few people here have suggested that we should repeal Art.370 and divide J&K into 3 namely Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. I just tried to dig into these 2 possibilities on practical terms. First of all, the Article 370 is a flaw in the start itself which mentions Art 238 will not be applicable to J&K--but the fact is Art 238 is no more and has been repealed but our Indian Constitution still has it under 1(a) of Art 370...anyways...my point is...this article says that a "Constituent Assembly" can make recommendations to President of India upon which Art 370 ceases to be operative or operates with exceptions and modifications. It means that elected representatives of all constituencies of J&K state constitute a "Constituent Assembly" which alone can make recommendations to PoI repeal Art 370. Does this not mean that INC in 1950s made a self goal?

anways..gatam gataha....my point is..as we are a democratic country..we have to abide by the rules defined within our Constitution and cannot bypass it to resolve the Kashmir issue...so taking 2008 results of J&K election as a benchmark we can see that NC,PDP,INC and BJP are 4 main parties that roost in J&K state. Now,in the coming up elections INC, BJP and NC have to somehow manage to secure and share the constituencies among them(I'd Like to see a landslide victory for BJP in entire Jammu and Ladakh districts).....there has to be no room for nutty cracky quaky mehbooba mufty's party...considering this as a scenario...can they form a "Constituent Assembly" to make recommendations to PoI to repeal Art.370 as provisioned by our Constitution?(I have blindly put my trust on NC here)...once Art.370 is repealed...will it not be easy for Central Govt to reorganize J&K state into Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh(this will secure Jammu and Ladakh from future violence by KMs)? Tourism and Trade with Jammu and Ladakh can be heightened as violence is not native to these 2 regions. We can welcome investments to these 2 new states thereby leaving a lesson to be learned by neighboring Kashmir State to objure violence and join Indian mainstream?...this is one practical approach that I can think of...

The current constitution of J&K prohibits Indian Union from making any changes in Name, Area or Boundaries of J&K state(all regions ruled by idiot Hari Singh including PoK) without the consent of its legislature....so forget about Jammuiat or Ladakhiat to be flanked against Kashmiriat...it doesn't achieve anything in accordance to our Constitution. Art 370 blocks this "division" to happen...don't know what INC netas of 50s were on... :evil:....but yes if the Jammuiat and Ladakhiat feeling can be used to demean Kashmiriyat's nuisance...it should come up in the form of political parties of Jammu and Ladakh....whenever PDP or separatists make sound....these political parties should start a wave of rallies against them and let this be covered by our media.....this will discredit KMs ask of ajaadi.

just my thoughts...
Why not differential and preferential development of the other two regions?

Isolate the valley, neutralize and castrate it.

wahabis need to be sorted out in the only language that they understand.

Nothing in either of the two constitutions that prohibit this.

Most important, get a CM who is not from the valley.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

chetak wrote:...
Why not differential and preferential development of the other two regions?

Isolate the valley, neutralize and castrate it.

wahabis need to be sorted out in the only language that they understand.
If you are talking about the Central Govt's initiative of preferential development of other 2 regions....as per ours and J&K constitution...Indian Union is only allowed to handle matters on External Affairs, Defense, Communications and ancillary matters independent of what J&K legislature thinks of...and on all other Union and Concurrent list items...it can be done only by the consent of J&K Government...even if GoI influences GoJ&K to develop Jammu and Ladakh separately...GoJ&K has to pass a bill in J&K assembly of which you know what the result could be :) .......Game changing votes come from Valley...they cannot give a reason to valley people to vote against them.

Added Later:
No Chetak...the development of Jammu and Ladakh has to be by mandates..thats the best guarantee that we can have from written mandates...preferential development programs by a non-Valley CM without any written mandate will only go Telangana way....IMVHO
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

Well autonomy is a good idea if thought out well. Knowing that no one in the current INC will dare to take this up I guess I can indulge myself :

Proposal:
(1) GOI agrees to grant "autonomy" to Kashmir Valley region only in return for joint proposal passed by the J&K assembly to repeal article 370 with all retroactive acts referred to in 370 together with the "autonomy act".
(2) "autonomy" in (1) is defined to mean that there shall be a separate Kashmi Valley Assembly with right to legislate in all aspects of state affairs except foreign affairs [including treaties and agreements with foreign governments], defense, currency, citizenship, flag.
(3) the autonomous region of Kashmir Valley will raise its own revenue and GOI will not have responsibility for its finances as it is already bearing the expenses for defense and foreign relations.
(4) the "autonomy" clause will be deemed null-and-void if any of the following happens from members and residents of the autonomous region : declaration of war by the autonomous region against the Indian Union, proof of failure to prevent growth of forces that carry out physical or harmful attacks against citizens of India coming from outside the autonomous region by members of the region, proof of presence of foreign army or troops within the region, or any other conspiratorial act against the GOI or any institution of India intended to cause death, and destruction of property.

Of course I leave the consequences unstated.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Prem »

5k NSActors of unknow Indian identity,properly trained and engaged in effective counter measures of repressing enemy "fire" with the authorozed key to open and shut the jannati Darwaza can neutralize the whole threat within a year with long lasting effect on non production, training and availabilty of terrorists . And these NSA's dont even have to work full week and still be able to enjoy weekends at home.
None of these over Kashmiri Wahabi Jihadi Fasadi leaders should be touched and allowed to roam free attending Shahidi conferences and congregations. Their democratic rights must be proteced and honored so they can enjoy full freedom of thoughts and deeds.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

Venkarl wrote:Few people here have suggested that we should repeal Art.370 and divide J&K into 3 namely Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. I just tried to dig into these 2 possibilities on practical terms. First of all, the Article 370 is a flaw in the start itself which mentions Art 238 will not be applicable to J&K--but the fact is Art 238 is no more and has been repealed but our Indian Constitution still has it under 1(a) of Art 370...anyways...my point is...this article says that a "Constituent Assembly" can make recommendations to President of India upon which Art 370 ceases to be operative or operates with exceptions and modifications. It means that elected representatives of all constituencies of J&K state constitute a "Constituent Assembly" which alone can make recommendations to PoI repeal Art 370. Does this not mean that INC in 1950s made a self goal?
The Constituent Assembly for Kashmir ceased to exist in 1956, so what relevance does the language around the "Constituent Assembly" have today?

In any case, Article 370 itself starts with the language "Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir". Can't GoI ask a constitution bench of the Supreme Court to define "temporary" and skin the cat that way?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Or atleast a PIL on that issue?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Hari Seldon »

^^^Sept 24 is not that far away - when one thorny issue the political class couldn't resolve at the polls will be, against herculean odds, resolved bu the judiciary after 59 yrs of postponement.

Perhaps, its time to take the Art 370 thing also to the judiciary as the political class have not the will to do the right thing.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

vera_k wrote:
Venkarl wrote:Few people here have suggested that we should repeal Art.370 and divide J&K into 3 namely Jammu, Kashmir and Ladakh. I just tried to dig into these 2 possibilities on practical terms. First of all, the Article 370 is a flaw in the start itself which mentions Art 238 will not be applicable to J&K--but the fact is Art 238 is no more and has been repealed but our Indian Constitution still has it under 1(a) of Art 370...anyways...my point is...this article says that a "Constituent Assembly" can make recommendations to President of India upon which Art 370 ceases to be operative or operates with exceptions and modifications. It means that elected representatives of all constituencies of J&K state constitute a "Constituent Assembly" which alone can make recommendations to PoI repeal Art 370. Does this not mean that INC in 1950s made a self goal?
The Constituent Assembly for Kashmir ceased to exist in 1956, so what relevance does the language around the "Constituent Assembly" have today?

In any case, Article 370 itself starts with the language "Temporary provisions with respect to the State of Jammu and Kashmir". Can't GoI ask a constitution bench of the Supreme Court to define "temporary" and skin the cat that way?
In 2000 autonomy resolution which was proposed by J&K leaders, the very first point was to substitute "Temporary" with "Special"...now do we understand where they are coming from?...its clearly a thorn in the eye ...you have made clear that the "Constituent Assembly" has ceased to exist in 1956.....now can the President upon the consent of GoI repeal the art 370? can The Parliament move a bill...it can't touch it? does this not contradict with the article itself which states PoI can repeal art 370 with recommendations of CA which is not existing anymore? .........is it not a deadlock situation if GoI wants to go by the framework set by our Constitution?

I hope I am wrong.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

Prem wrote:5k NSActors of unknow Indian identity,properly trained and engaged in effective counter measures of repressing enemy "fire" with the authorozed key to open and shut the jannati Darwaza can neutralize the whole threat within a year with long lasting effect on non production, training and availabilty of terrorists . And these NSA's dont even have to work full week and still be able to enjoy weekends at home.
None of these over Kashmiri Wahabi Jihadi Fasadi leaders should be touched and allowed to roam free attending Shahidi conferences and congregations. Their democratic rights must be proteced and honored so they can enjoy full freedom of thoughts and deeds.
I vaguely remember something similar to this was proposed after violent 80s but was turned down by the then G
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

Hari Seldon wrote:^^^Sept 24 is not that far away - when one thorny issue the political class couldn't resolve at the polls will be, against herculean odds, resolved bu the judiciary after 59 yrs of postponement.

Perhaps, its time to take the Art 370 thing also to the judiciary as the political class have not the will to do the right thing.
Hari garu,

I will not do any guesses or hopes regarding the Sept 24. I will say it is over when it is over. Here are some pointers for you.
At best, Art 370 will also be like Uniform Civil Code. The court may suggest to scrap it and the government will not implement.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Jarita »

^^^ I tell ya'll again, that even if Kashmir had a fully "Indic' population we would have had the same issues there. Too many geopolitical factions want to control the geography for too many reasons. Unless we checkmate some of these factions a la 1972, the problem will continue to persist irrespective of the demography of the region.
All the stuff that is going on is a temporary band-aid fix. Do you think that the terrorists will come around? Do you think the money flow to the stone pelters will stop? Do you think that every friday the paid person will stop brainwashing and stirring up the masses?
We need a big idea not a band-aid approach to remove this HIV before it becomes AIDs on Indias body.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by RamaY »

B-ji,

that's not a bad idea. Your idea should accompany with a nice 20k crore one time economic packages to The other regions To make the carrats and sticks clear
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

Whats up with the milk story? even mirwaiz mentioned about it to Gurdas Dasgupta? why stopping milk?

The more I here about autonomy..I feel it is only reversing the process of integrating J&K with rest of India...when we can't do it in whole...then do it in bits and pieces...but for this Art 370 has to go or be amended...any further Autonomy Grants by GoI will reinforce the art.370...
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by brihaspati »

The trick maybe to put a reverse condition on autonomy - tag it with repeal of 370 and restriction to valley only. The major blunder from GOI is that they have nothing tangible to bargain on - they are going as a guilty party - "one who has failed to deliver, to give, to donate, to address grievances...blah blah". To counter demands you have to pose equal or even higher demands. Then of course put further conditions on the autonomy making it walk on a very thin razor's edge. Take out the financial helping hand and force it to be integrated economically while enclosing it all around. Then of course explore the clauses which make "autonomy" null and void.....
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by shiv »

Sachin wrote:Corruption in J&K, is primarily carried out by people staying in J&K (and not by Army men or Malayalis,Sindhis, Bengalis) :). I feel this "genuine grivience" is an excuse for riot mongering. This is the first bluff of the Kashmiris which need to be exposed.

The problem or India is that in J&K corruption of some Kashmiris can be converted into islamic grievance of others by help from across the border. The fact is that whatever the level of corruption anywhere in India the government is not viewed as a "Ruling Hindu government". This is exploited by separatists as "Hindu rule" by Muslim lackeys of the Hindu government who need to be brought down to give peace to Islam

What I find funny in this situation is that the Congress at the center is viewed as "Hindus" by the separatists while political opponents of the congress do not see the Congress as Hindu enough.

Ultimately the solution to teh Kashmir issue must lie in between the following extremes
1) Giving Kashmir away
2) Ruthless killing of Kashmiri Muslims who agitate.

Many on BRF believe Kashmir is being given away, but do not support the other extreme of killing all political opponents. If the solution points away from killing, and giving away is ruled out, what is the solution?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Pranav »

shiv wrote: Many on BRF believe Kashmir is being given away, but do not support the other extreme of killing all political opponents. If the solution points away from killing, and giving away is ruled out, what is the solution?
1. Arresting and giving long prison sentences to a few thousand of the "youth" who are hurling rocks and beating up shop-keepers. Currently police just look on indulgently while shop-keepers are getting thrashed.

2. Crackdown on corruption (this may require putting Gandhi and Abdullah families, amongst others, behind bars).

3. Opening space for sane Kashmiris to fearlessly voice their views.

4. Strict control of Mullahs spewing hate from mosque loudpeakers. Troublesome ones can have their mosques confiscated, to start with.

5. Removal from government employment or positions of authority of any persons with Wahhabi leanings.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vera_k »

shiv wrote:What I find funny in this situation is that the Congress at the center is viewed as "Hindus" by the separatists while political opponents of the congress do not see the Congress as Hindu enough.

Ultimately the solution to teh Kashmir issue must lie in between the following extremes
1) Giving Kashmir away
2) Ruthless killing of Kashmiri Muslims who agitate.

Many on BRF believe Kashmir is being given away, but do not support the other extreme of killing all political opponents. If the solution points away from killing, and giving away is ruled out, what is the solution?
Well, the issue is caught in a 1947 time warp. In 1947, Congress was seen as the Hindu party, and that is why Pakistan was created.

I think the situation must be allowed to deteriorate to the point where Kashmir secedes. Followed by Indian intervention to annex the territory again. In effect, revisit 1947 all over again to break out of the time warp.

Only hitch here is that a Central government that cannot do away with A370 when it is in control can hardly be expected to fight a war to recover territory.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by vina »

Was it just me or did the rest of the folks here think that the All party delegation visit to Geelani and Mirwaiz was a scripted for media circus and those two were clearly playing a game to convince their faithful about their steadfast "credentials"!

Well , well, if all this wasn't politics and trying to show that they too are relevant in the Kashmiri discourse and not some loony fringe (which I think they are despite all their protestations to the contrary), I don't know what is. Nice. Even an idiot knows that negotiations are never done in front of the camera and this was a "lobbed up sitter" consisting of 3rd string parties and alliance members and such folks sent ,to give the separatists an opportunity to hit it out of the park;a media opportunity to say their piece and to create some "space" for them.

All this leads me to believe that this present "agitation" was really aimed at the Omar Abdullah govt and was an attempt to create conditions to unseat him. Good that the Congress put paid to that and read out things as they are via "Yuvraj". :mrgreen: . Sorry folks, the more I think of this, the more I feel this agitation is a farce and a tragedy. A farce because of the desperation of the separatists and hurriyat folks to somehow remain relevant and a tragedy they cynically used dead bodies of innocents in pursuit of their politics for which they are directly responsible because despite shedding copious crocodile tears for the 102 odd killed, they were the ones who instigated and directed those arsonist mobs.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Muppalla »

This may belong to several threads but this is most hot now and hence posting it here. I wrote in some AF-Pak or Afghan thread that it is rollback time in the geopolitics. 80s and early 90s were the most happiest and comfortable for certain establishments. Kashmir has to burn. Period. We are getting back to that stage. Read this following in full.


India's Kashmir challenge - M. K. Bhadrakumar
The Intifada unfolding in the Valley has diverse moorings. The political reality is that Pakistan has escalated its rhetoric on Kashmir.

An unseen passenger would have travelled in the special aircraft ferrying the “all-party delegation” to Srinagar on Monday [September 20]. The distinguished parliamentarians might not have noticed the American's discreet presence. He came straight from a fateful conclave in a five-star hotel in Islamabad last Wednesday. For the first time in the 60-year post-colonial history of our region, the political and military leadership of the United States, Pakistan and Afghanistan sat together under a chandelier in Islamabad to choreograph a new security architecture for the region and it was a dazzling display of American influence in our part of the world.

A momentous chapter in regional politics is unfolding as the nine-year-old Afghan war slouched toward a denouement. Kashmir cannot remain unaffected when such a phenomenal tectonic shift in the regional balance of power gets under way. The narrative could as well have been plucked out of Henry Kissinger's immutable magna opera on the politics of power, A World Restored: Metternich, Castlereagh and the Problems of Peace. The Islamabad conclave was every bit about the reconciliation of turbulent relationships, matching of differing concerns of respective countries and the changing nature of diplomacy that is needed to influence the final shape of peace.

Pakistan brokered brilliantly to bring the U.S. and the Taliban to the vicinity of a settlement. The picture that emerges is that in a near future the 1,00,000 U.S. troops would stop fighting and dying in the Taliban's Pashtun strongholds in the south and east in a futile counter-insurgency operation and would thin out to relocate to the predominantly non-Pashtun regions in the north and west. The U.S's “combat mission” will end and what remains will be a few thousand troops (like in Iraq) to ensure that the affiliates of al-Qaeda do not regroup.

The U.S. can deploy air power or the special forces if an odd al-Qaeda fellow pops up somewhere while the Afghan army will incrementally come on stream. The end of bloodshed will remove the war from being a domestic political haemorrhage for the Barack Obama administration. At the same time, it will be a geopolitical coup insofar as the U.S. military presence in Central Asia will be put on a long-term footing, which, in turn, enables the U.S. to effectively pursue its global strategies in terms of the containment of China and Iran, the expansion of the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation as a real-time provider of security for the Central Asian states and the perpetuation of the western dominance over the oil-rich Middle East, which is under growing challenge.

To be sure, for all this to happen the U.S. will depend on Pakistan's cooperation in the stabilisation of the southern and eastern regions. Indeed, the Taliban is under heavy Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) influence and the Pakistani military too has a stake in stabilising the Durand Line on a durable basis so that it can pay adequate attention to the eastern borders facing India.

There is a question mark regarding the political future of Afghan President Hamid Karzai. He is expected to cede to the Taliban the southern and eastern regions and the U.S.-Pakistani deal places him in a precarious position vis-à-vis the unforgiving Pakistani generals. His dash to Islamabad on Wednesday and his joint meeting with the Pakistani army chief Pervez Kayani and the U.S. commander David Petraeus tells a sad story by itself. Indeed, Mr. Karzai has to walk a tight rope calibrating the Afghan aspirations of independence and sovereignty when there is an overflow of adrenaline through the Pakistani veins, having come so close to realising “strategic depth”. Can Mr. Karzai count on no-holds-barred U.S. backing? Most certainly, not. Washington has its own national interests vis-à-vis the Pakistani military leadership. Washington will not want to squander away the excellent chemistry between the Pentagon and Mr. Kayani for which it worked hard.

India's regional policy, too, finds itself at a crossroads. The cementing of the U.S.-Pakistani axis in Afghanistan cannot but affect Indian interests and it leaves a lousy feeling of being let down by the Americans. However, it should be left to historians to dispassionately judge whether the Americans really did lead the Indians up the garden path. Or, was it a matter of the Indian diplomacy having been needlessly supine in the critical years between 2001-2006? If you submit as a doormat, others are bound to see you that way.

Be that as it may, New Delhi will still place hope that the U.S. acts as a “moderating influence” on the Pakistani military. It is always good to hope. In ideal conditions, the U.S.'s moderating influence could work in three directions: a) India has legitimate interests in Afghanistan and Pakistan cannot exercise a veto over it; b) the ISI should not use the Taliban-held regions as sanctuaries and training camps for terrorists operating against India; and, c) Pakistan should dismantle its own terrorist infrastructure and opt for settlement of differences through dialogue.

The reasonableness of the Indian case is certainly not in doubt. But then, life is real. The U.S. will be foolish to spend out of its capital of goodwill with the Pakistani military. Look at it this way. The settlement in Afghanistan strengthens the U.S's standing in the region but, paradoxically, it also makes the U.S. strategies in the downstream predicated on the Pakistani military delivering on the stabilisation of the Afghan situation. The equation, you may say, is a serious one for Washington's future strategies. Put simply, Taliban is the best-organised Afghan group today, the creation of a viable Afghan national army is a long haul, and Pakistan can create mayhem in Kabul if it chooses to be a spoiler.

Arguably, U.S. airpower and special forces may deliver shock and awe but wars are ultimately won and lost on the ground and it is inconceivable that the U.S. troops would return to a combat mission in Afghanistan. The Taliban can comprehend the paradigm; the Pakistani military leadership knows it; and the U.S. knows that the two protagonists know it. In sum, therefore, the Pakistani military will be holding the Afghan settlement by its jugular for the foreseeable future. Not that the Pakistani military will necessarily opt for strategic defiance of the U.S. Why should it kill the goose that lays the golden egg? The Americans are good paymasters and Pakistan needs a lot of money these days to simply to stay afloat.

The most crucial variable for Delhi is that the U.S. too would have expectations of India's good conduct in Afghanistan. It is all-too delicate an issue but India can no more stall the Pakistani demand for the closure of our consulates in Jalalabad and Kandahar. Nor is the U.S. going to plead our case. Much depends on whether Delhi is prepared to work with Washington's Asia-Pacific enterprise. In anticipation, the pro-U.S. lobby and the Indian middlemen for Americans arms manufacturers are already on overdrive expounding bizarre theses — India should prepare for wars on two fronts simultaneously, Indian armed forces deserve better civilian leadership, etc. These lobbyists and commission agents are tirelessly drumming up a war psychosis and Sinophobia in order to pedal their case that Delhi should embrace all-round military cooperation with the U.S. and work with the American global strategies. These bellboys have unabashedly become stakeholders in creating xenophobia and in keeping the nation's nerves on edge at a time when no one with a modicum of sanity would say India faces threat of armed aggression. Today India is a major military power already with near-Intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) capability. And India's security challenges are internal.

The commission agents of U.S. arms manufacturers salivate over kickbacks but where do our national interests lie? We can't be “coolies” in the U.S.'s Asia-Pacific enterprise as it imperils our normalisation with China and will inevitably trigger a cold war in our region that sidetracks the priorities of development. Besides, we simply can't appease the American manufacturers by atrophying the time-tested friendship with Russia since if the push comes to the shove on Kashmir, whereas the U.S. position remains ambivalent (although we unilaterally insist on interpreting it to be in our favour), we may need to shout across the Himalayas to our Russian friend. Most important, the U.S.-Pakistan axis is pivotal for the U.S. regional strategies in Central Asia and in a not-too-distant future Mr. Kayani will seek his pound of flesh on Kashmir. The Intifada unfolding in the Valley has diverse moorings and the killing of innocents may well turn out to be a sideshow in the 20-year deadly game that is far from played out.

The political reality is that Pakistan has escalated its rhetoric on Kashmir. The government's invitation to China to invest in the development of J&K indeed underscores our growing sense of awareness. We need to carefully measure the timeline available to normalise the J&K situation. A regime change in Srinagar is not the priority today. Politicising the crisis will be a most irresponsible thing to do.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

What is he finally suggesting India should do after all the gloom and doom in the article, other than sucking up to China ( which is not unexpected from a card carrying commie)?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

suck up to Russia :lol:
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by ramana »

Sum dont bucket people when they come bearing bad news. Read it all over again.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Anindya »

This autonomy exercise seems to be going like clockwork....

- first our liberal-far-left start making wild noises in reaction to the intifada style attacks - in some cases, they collaborate with ISI mules
- rigged television talk shows tell us about how badly the Kashmiri ethnic cleansers and rock throwers are being treated
- next our elected leaders start talking about "some kind of autonomy has to be conceded"
- every elected and un-elected personality in Kashmir that can get near a mike stands up and talks about autonomy or worse
- the all-party committee with some disagreements will talk about some kind of compromise to meet people's aspirations
- the Jamiat will pull together Muslim leadership across the country to back up such plans
http://www.dailypioneer.com/284632/Jami ... issue.html

- whats next - a vote in the parliament? pressure from US and other sources - big announcement before the Obama visit? Who knows?

Watch this space.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

The most crucial variable for Delhi is that the U.S. too would have expectations of India's good conduct in Afghanistan. It is all-too delicate an issue but India can no more stall the Pakistani demand for the closure of our consulates in Jalalabad and Kandahar.
Is MKB saying that the consulates are going to pack up soon?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

The only reason i feel bit bit safe about GoI not doing drastic is because of the status quo nature of the GoI. Note what media adviser of INC says:
X-post:
sum wrote:Congress is a status-quoist party, has no convictions: PM’s adviser
During a discussion at a book-release function in Delhi’s Nehru Memorial Museum and Library on Monday, Harish Khare, the Prime Minister’s media adviser, articulated an unprecedented critique of the Congress.

The Congress, Khare said, is “by nature, chaal, charitra, essentially a status-quoist party. It does not believe in any conviction. (Its) only conviction is to win elections. That is its only conviction”.

This is the first time that Khare, a former journalist, has publicly criticised the party that leads the government that employs him.
:eek: :eek:
Wow...strong words.
This might save the day for the "nationalists" in the GoI
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by Venkarl »

btw...which amrikhan from isloo is mkb talking about?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

sum wrote:What is he finally suggesting India should do after all the gloom and doom in the article, other than sucking up to China ( which is not unexpected from a card carrying commie)?
I don't know whether Mr. Bhadra Kumar is a card-carrying communist or not but he is accurate for the whole part except the China bit. I know MKB is inconsistent and at times oscillates between being brilliant and below-mediocre. But, this is not one such occasion, IMHO.

Pakistan and China are coordinating on the Kashmir front and the encirclement of India knowing fully well that the US is on the retreat, that the PA has played its cards well so far, that the Indians are cornered in Afghanistan, that the Americans would not come to India's help if their geostrategic interests collided with that and that the Indian response has been tepid and listless so far. PA is therefore upping the ante in Kashmir secure in their knowledge that they have effectively succeeded in driving the Americans out of the region and in making them eat out of their hands. Weak-kneed approach in J&K, that has been the hallmark of GoI for 63 years, would no longer work.

There is complete chaos on the Kashmir and Pakistan fronts within GoI. The crumbs that the US are feeding India regarding terrorism, Pakistan and China are making the policy makers complacent that the US would stand by us if situation so demands. Nothing can be farthest from truth for two reasons. One, the American untrustworthiness and two the irreverence that both China and Pakistan have for the US. While US commands no respect from China, Pakistan has mastered the art of milking the Americans while completely having her way in matters relating to India.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Delhi goes to Srinagar – then tries to go the extra mile

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Delhi ... ile/684959
“When the boys were killed, if the Army chief had apologized to the family, this issue would not taken such a shape now,” Paswan said setting a conciliatory tone for the meeting.
*sigh*
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by SSridhar »

abhishek_sharma wrote: Delhi goes to Srinagar then tries to go the extra mile
“When the boys were killed, if the Army chief had apologized to the family, this issue would not taken such a shape now,” Paswan said setting a conciliatory tone for the meeting.
When did the Indian Army kill these boys ? And, what sort of advice is Mr. Paswan proffering to parents who send their children, some as young as six and seven, with rocks in their hands to throw at the policemen and put them in harm's way ?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

^ I don't understand why he has to say these things. I guess he is just trying to please people who see "grave injustices" in Afghanistan, Bosnia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Iraq, ....

In any case, how many people would vote for him due to these statements. My assumption is that most people (of any community) in his state (Bihar) would probably care for economic sops.
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by sum »

There is complete chaos on the Kashmir and Pakistan fronts within GoI. The crumbs that the US are feeding India regarding terrorism, Pakistan and China are making the policy makers complacent that the US would stand by us if situation so demands. Nothing can be farthest from truth for two reasons. One, the American untrustworthiness and two the irreverence that both China and Pakistan have for the US. While US commands no respect from China, Pakistan has mastered the art of milking the Americans while completely having her way in matters relating to India.
Thanks for the explanation,SS-sir.

Does it mean that Desh is royally screwed in coming days and things are only going to go downhill from now with GoI not even bothering to wake up and start its own games?
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Re: J & K news and discussion

Post by chetak »

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand they are off!!!

They have been itching to come in for a long time.


http://www.dailypioneer.com/284632/Jami ... issue.html
Jamiat tries to make Kashmir a Muslim-specific issue
September 21, 2010 11:27:43 AM

RAKESH K SINGH | New Delhi

The Jamiat Ulama-i-Hind (JUH) has convened a conference at Deoband early next month of all the Muslim sects to evolve a consensus over the Kashmir situation and express solidarity with the community in the Valley. The JUH also plans to send a delegation to the Valley.

While major Muslim bodies have so far refrained from interfering with the sensitive Kashmir situations, the JUH move could have wide ramification as it might end up projecting the Kashmir conflict as a Muslim issue.

“The movement against the violence in Jammu and Kashmir has so far been run by a small minority of civil rights group and we are trying to give a voice to the silent majority of masses and bring people to the fore to address the situation and resolve the problem,” secretary and spokesperson of JUH Niaz Ahmed Farooqui told The Pioneer.

Besides leaders and representatives from the Shias, Sunnis, Deobandis, Barelvis and non-Muslim communities, the Jamiat has invited 10,000 delegates of the organisation from across the country at Deoband on October 4 to discuss the Kashmir situation.
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