Managing Chinese Threat

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shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote: But yet you are opposed to India reciprocating this by not recognizing Tibet. What is good for the goose is not good for the gander?
Please point me to where I have said anything of the sort. If you need to cook up words that you imagine I have said I doubt if there is anything further to be gained by actually reading each other's posts and replying. Not only do we have a difference in viewpoint - you have "added value" to my posts by reaching imaginary conclusions about what I have said.

Speaking of sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander - I can now see how it is possible to interpret China's growth as detrimental to India. The conclusion from this could be that China's growth should be sabotaged for India to rise and become a "duopoly" in Asia

If you are interested would you be able to say if you agree or disagree with this statement. I am not attributing the statement to you, in case you misinterpret my words as you might be tempted to do.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

RamaY wrote:^+1

Indians should stop expecting others to give (started from Britishers "giving" Independence) and start taking what is theirs...
I think this is a great observation of Indian psyche. We want others to "give UNSC seat" and we immediately take what others give us if it looks like a compliment.

Some moron says "India has superpower aspirations" and the whole country says "Yes Yes Yes. We are aspiring to be superpower. Please give us recognition." I wonder if we are using reservation buddhi. We are nearly 20% of world population. We have been downtrodden and colonised. So please reserve a seat for us at high table by lowering the requirements
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by dinesha »

Only our fears can encircle us
Suhasini Haidar
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true
Instead of being alarmed at China's growing inroads in the region, India needs to take a harder look at its own role and find new ways to win neighbours and increase influence in the region's growth story.

No one would accuse Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of being alarmist. So when, addressing the Heads of Missions last month, he spoke of paying close attention to “global powers exercising influence in the Indian Ocean Region,” it was assumed that the Prime Minister was genuinely concerned about China's growing role in the region. When he spoke to editors some days later about his concerns on China again, the assumption was sealed.

India's growing concern rose from two factors — the first, Beijing's sudden decision to provide Northern GOC General Jaswal with a stapled visa, saying his command includes a ‘disputed' region; and the other, newspaper reports that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) had approximately 11,000 soldiers in Gilgit-Baltistan, digging tunnels and posing a direct threat to India across the LoC.

Diplomats on both sides now say they are ‘sorting out' the visa issue, with Beijing on the back foot, particularly given that General Jaswal has travelled to China in the past. Meanwhile, the reported build-up in PoK was aggressively denied by Beijing and Islamabad, both insisting that the troops are there to help contain flood damage, and the impending threat of the Hunza dam overflowing, and also to work on the Karakoram Highway project. India's suspicions that China's army is now securing its land route to the Arabian sea via PoK have nonetheless grown, given that China has also wrested control of the Gwadar port back from the Singaporean Port Authority. The development ties in with the fear of India being choked by a strategic “String of Pearls” — a U.S. Defence Department term for China's ambitions for bases in the Indian Ocean Region. With Gwadar in Pakistan, Hambantota in Sri Lanka, Chittagong in Bangladesh, and the Sittwe port in Myanmar, it would seem the string is slowly turning into a choke-chain for India.

At one level, the fears of China overrunning Pakistan to open a front with India may seem far-fetched, even hysterical. At another, it may be a much needed wake-up call for India to reassess its preparedness to counter an increasingly assertive Chinese military. At an entirely different level, New Delhi's alarm in the past few weeks could be most constructive if it ensures that India takes a closer look at its own role in the region, and why China is making headway with so many of our neighbours.

Take Sri Lanka that has many reasons to welcome Indian investment. Whether it has been the tsunami, the war against the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), or the post-war demining and rehabilitation effort, Indian agencies have been at the forefront to help. And yet, as Sri Lanka recasts itself as the Singapore of the region, it is China that is its biggest infrastructural investor, bagging many coveted projects given China's deeper pockets. Much of it is a result of Indian apathy – the Hambantota port, for example, was offered to India first. New Delhi's lack of interest in developing this strategically located harbour was easily the gain of China, which worked double time to complete the project with $60 billion funded from China's Exim bank, building the port, the city centre, the airport, a stadium, and a massive convention centre. Many in India worry that Hambantota's future could include a Chinese naval base too.

While Indian concerns about Hambantota are well known, practically no one speaks of the port project that India does have, in the northern town of Kankesenthurai (KKS). Originally, after the tsunami, the project was handed to the Dutch, but after India showed interest, the Sri Lankan President tore up that contract and invited India to build the port. Yet 18 months later, this harbour near Jaffna has seen little by way of construction; even a feasibility survey taken in June 2010 has not yet been finalised. Meanwhile Hambantota will receive its first ship in November, some six months ahead of schedule. The contract for the Colombo port has just gone to a Chinese consortium — no Indian company having even tried to bid for it.. Given that the National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC)-Sampur coal 500-MW plant is already delayed years beyond its 2011 deadline, it is hoped that other projects India has committed itself to including the northern rail line, the Palaly airport and the Jaffna stadium will be dealt with more expeditiously

While many in India would see these projects essentially as aid to a needy neighbour, it is time to invert the prism and see them, just as we accuse China, as ways of increasing our footprint and extending our ambitions to a sphere of influence well beyond our land mass.

In January this year, a historic agreement with Bangladesh Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina seemed to redefine how India would deal with its neighbours. Amongst a slew of agreements came India's $1-billion credit line — for 14 infrastructural projects. Even while the agreements were being finalised — Dhaka delivered some of the most wanted United Liberation Front of Asom (ULFA) militants. Despite opposition cries of a sell-out, Sheikh Hasina's India deal won her accolades in Bangladesh. Yet it took eight months before Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee flew to Bangladesh to operationalise the credit line, and by the time he reached, India had decided to change its earlier offer of $1bn at one per cent interest to 1.75 per cent — terms that took many in Dhaka by unpleasant surprise. Also, unless India relaxes its trade barriers to Bangladeshi goods, it will be accused of exploiting the transit rights only for its own benefit. It is hoped that Dr. Singh, whose trip to Dhaka is imminent, will address some of those concerns. Meanwhile China has moved into the delay gap on projects like the Chittagong port with ease, funding much of its refurbishment, as also the construction of the second Padma bridge, as it vigorously pushes MoUs on road links via Myanmar and a rail line connecting Beijing to Dhaka — as part of a $2.2-billion Chinese package on infrastructure.

A bolder move, but one that would win many hearts is to consider lifting tariff and non-tarrif barriers and duties unilaterally in the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) region altogether. Suspend the reality of our relations with Pakistan for a moment to think about the impact of ending such protectionism in a year that has so devastated Pakistan's economy. According to estimates, the destruction of standing crops on two million hectares has virtually wiped out Pakistan's staple revenue from export of cotton, rice, and sugar. The country will be dependent on importing these for the next few years. With 77 million people likely to go hungry, and Pakistan's projected growth likely to fall by half to about two per cent, it is only natural that China's interventions in flood relief, rebuilding destroyed roads, schools and bridges, aid and trade will grow. The question is: will India watch with its customary alarm but do nothing?

On our other frontiers, it must be said, the government has made some moves — increasing development aid to Afghanistan to $1.2 billion and discussing a $1-billion dollar credit line to Myanmar as well. Describing some of these initiatives at Harvard University this month, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao said: “Today, with sustained high economic growth rates … India is in a better position to offer a significant stake to our neighbours in our own prosperity and growth.” It is equally important to stand that assumption on its head, and consider India's stake in the prosperity and growth of its neighbours. Whether it's Mauritius or Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Afghanistan or yes, Pakistan — these are countries with close cultural, linguistic, historic ties to India no other country can match. As a result, it shouldn't be possible for China or any other superpower to encircle a country like India. The only thing that encircles us is our fear that they will.

(Suhasini Haidar is the Deputy Foreign Editor, CNN-IBN.)
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Arjun »

shiv wrote:
Arjun wrote: But yet you are opposed to India reciprocating this by not recognizing Tibet. What is good for the goose is not good for the gander?
Please point me to where I have said anything of the sort. If you need to cook up words that you imagine I have said I doubt if there is anything further to be gained by actually reading each other's posts and replying. Not only do we have a difference in viewpoint - you have "added value" to my posts by reaching imaginary conclusions about what I have said.

Speaking of sauce for the goose being sauce for the gander - I can now see how it is possible to interpret China's growth as detrimental to India. The conclusion from this could be that China's growth should be sabotaged for India to rise and become a "duopoly" in Asia

If you are interested would you be able to say if you agree or disagree with this statement. I am not attributing the statement to you, in case you misinterpret my words as you might be tempted to do.
Don't agree. Growth by China in itself is not a problem, unless somebody can prove this is a zero-sum game. What I do believe in however, is reciprocity in relationships. Acting as a doormat and refusing to learn from repeated provocations, is something I usually find highly puke-worthy.

We have given China enough opportunity and time to explain. China has proliferated to Pakistan, ergo India ..... China refuses to accept India's territorial integrity, ergo India ..... China sees India's rise as detrimental to itself and is boxing India in through proxies, refusing UNSC seat etc - ergo India needs to sabotage China's rise. All of this is as long as China continues following the path she has followed, and for the purpose of greater negotiating leverage. China stops the provocations - we stop the reciprocal behaviour. Its simple only...

As far as Tibet goes, I see that you have not explicitly stated that you are against recognizing it, but neither have you explicitly stated the opposite. You have consistently played down the threat from China, when all the actions I have posted would put it very much past the threshold of action from India's end.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote: Pulikeshi - I see a lot of clever phrases here that in the end may not carry as much meaning as they are supposed to carry.
Not as clever as you I suppose, samajne valo ko ishara hi kaafi hota hai :mrgreen: :P
shiv wrote: India is the second biggest country in Asia and the second biggest population. The size of it's economy will - in due course be second to China - like the slum that is second to Dharavi in economy.
Disappointing, that you can only see India as the second biggest...
India historically (see Angus Maddison's research) has been bigger than China economically.
Why second? Why not corrected back to where it was? No. 1?

Also, Dharavi probably does $0.5 to $1 billion GDP. So what?
Does it show that unstructured shadow markets work as efficiently as structured ones...
shiv wrote: I am trying to point out that India's perceived closeness to the west and ideological differences with China are western proposed mental constructs. The China threat too is part real, part mental construct. Those who are ideologically different from us are a threat if they become powerful. The unlimited power of those whose ideology is the same as our ideology (such as the US) is non threatening to us. For my own education I would like to be told of all the ideological similarities Indians have with Americans.
Wrong thread, but Shiv, not sure when you turned this cynical.
Even the word you use 'Hindu' is western and you know that better than most.
Heck we are even arguing out ideas in English not in Tamil, Urdu, Kannada, Telugu or Tulu.

PS: I once chanced an argument with a Chinese girl who was eating chicken drumsticks
from a large KFC bucket, even as she denounced the hypocritical West and 'white devils' etc. :mrgreen: :twisted:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pulikeshi »

Acharya wrote: That was not the point. My point is that this discussion will keep going.
Yes, endless discussion, as India will never make up its mind on what it wants the world to be.
How can one change the world unless one knows what to change it to?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Arjun »

shiv wrote: I am trying to point out that India's perceived closeness to the west and ideological differences with China are western proposed mental constructs. The China threat too is part real, part mental construct.
Yeah, right. The '62 jhapad was a mental construct only...as is the nuclear proliferation to Pakistan, and its 'tallel and deepel friendship with our esteemed neighbour'. Ok so you are going to say this came under 'part real'. Do we really need part 'mental construct' when the 'part real' is vile enough?
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote: Don't agree. Growth by China in itself is not a problem, unless somebody can prove this is a zero-sum game. What I do believe in however, is reciprocity in relationships. Acting as a doormat and refusing to learn from repeated provocations, is something I usually find highly puke-worthy.

<snip>

As far as Tibet goes, I see that you have not explicitly stated that you are against recognizing it, but neither have you explicitly stated the opposite. You have consistently played down the threat from China, when all the actions I have posted would put it very much past the threshold of action from India's end.
The India China relationship is not a zero sum game. But some aspects of the relationship can be converted into a zero sum game by a power seeking to "balance" one against the other.

The reason I have insisted on what appears to be "playing down" the China threat is that we must not ignore the US whose basic foreign relations plan for Asia is to "hold the ring" - that s to balance one power against the other. China must not get too powerful in relationship to Taiwan, Japan, Korea, India, India must not get too powerful in relation to China, Pakistan.

Ignoring this or dismissing it as irrelevant is, to me, a problem. I have become accustomed to people on the forum clearly stating that India is a pushover with regard to China. Stemming from these conclusions appears the demand that India should stop being a pushover and "challenge" China. As regards ideas on how to challenge China several observations have been made by various people:

1) Match military power: I have no disagreement with this.
2) Attack and take over POK I have stated several reservations to this - and unless you request me to repeat them I will not repeat them
3) Several things have been said about what to do regarding the Tibet question. I do not specifically recall anyone demanding the derecognition of Tibet as part of China as an action India should take. I may have missed the post - please point me to the same if you know. I do know that people have called for some tit for tat actions on the visa stapling business and I suggested several actions that will serve as irritants in addition. You may have missed them and I will not repeat unless you ask me to repeat what I said.

I am not at all sure of what derecognition of Tibet as part of China would serve. I happen to think that Chinese actions like stapled visa etc are pointless symbolism. We too can indulge in pointless symbolism if it makes us feel better but I see not near or medium term possibility of India making Tibet independent or autonomous. Nobody seems to have gone into any detail about "What next?" after derecognizing Tibet as part of China. Should we make war? Or train our resident Tibetans to start a campaign of violence in Tibet? (which China is afraid of). Should we then provoke war?

My personal feeling is that India should not get into a game at a local "Tibet level" which will not lead to any benefit. I personally feel that if we want to take symbolic action against China we should as a nation first drop the mindless fear and respect we have for China which makes us silent about the thousands of problems that China visibly has and start talking about them openly to slight and provoke China the way China seeks to provoke. In the short to medium term it could even provoke China into a border war with India as they seek to preserve their honor.

Naturally if war is an outcome either way military preparedness is a vital first step. Economic might to support that would be the ideal dish to go with that.

Ultimately India has no option other than to grow. I insist on repeating that as we grow we will be stepping not only on Chinese toes, but American toes as well. This gives both nations the incentive to slow down or thwart India is they see an opportunity. Of all the choices India faces - none are totally sweet. Every choice has its bitter repercussions. That is one thing we have to learn to take as part of the game.
shiv
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote:
shiv wrote: I am trying to point out that India's perceived closeness to the west and ideological differences with China are western proposed mental constructs. The China threat too is part real, part mental construct.
Yeah, right. The '62 jhapad was a mental construct only...as is the nuclear proliferation to Pakistan, and its 'tallel and deepel friendship with our esteemed neighbour'. Ok so you are going to say this came under 'part real'. Do we really need part 'mental construct' when the 'part real' is vile enough?
Well "part real" with regard to China is as vile as the "part real" with regard to Britain and the US. Only you and many others are unable to bridge the mental gap that shows up colonial Britain and the US as having been as vile as China. I cannot help you or stop you from selectively excusing the actions of one group exclusively. The US has made things extarordinarily difficult for India at crucial times in our recent history and has also contributed to hundreds of Indian deaths. For you that is not real perhaps.

China is bad, Nobody denies that. My difficulty is the constant refrain that US is good in comparison. The mental construct is "US good, excusable, benign. China bad" How? Dealing with China requires dealing with US actions as well in some areas. Unless you can face up to that reality, we are going to get no further.
Last edited by shiv on 27 Sep 2010 09:44, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by TonyMontana »

shiv wrote:
The India China relationship is not a zero sum game. But some aspects of the relationship can be converted into a zero sum game by a power seeking to "balance" one against the other.

I am not at all sure of what derecognition of Tibet as part of China would serve. I happen to think that Chinese actions like stapled visa etc are pointless symbolism. We too can indulge in pointless symbolism if it makes us feel better but I see not near or medium term possibility of India making Tibet independent or autonomous.

My personal feeling is that India should not get into a game at a local "Tibet level" which will not lead to any benefit.

Naturally if war is an outcome either way military preparedness is a vital first step. Economic might to support that would be the ideal dish to go with that.

Ultimately India has no option other than to grow. I insist on repeating that as we grow we will be stepping not only on Chinese toes, but American toes as well.
Don't know if this is good for your argument, but you articulated so well what I wanted to say in many different threads.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Kanson »

http://blogs.wsj.com/chinarealtime/2010 ... ian-roads/

Enter the Dragon on Indian Roads
From India Real Time:

As the United States sits in India’s bad books for its recent moves against outsourcing, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh’s government is laying a pathway for China to invest in the country’s roads and highways projects.

On Wednesday, India’s roads minister, Kamal Nath, on an official trip to Beijing, countered reports that the federal government has barred joint ventures for investments with China-based companies and said India was ready for Chinese investments in its massive highway expansion in all regions including the sensitive border areas of Jammu and Kashmir and the northeast.

Welcoming Chinese involvement hasn’t been the government’s stance in other areas. The Mint newspaper earlier reported that the government has forbid joint ventures with investments from China-based companies from participating in the ninth round of India’s oil and gas exploration and licensing auctions.

But it appears to be softening. The government has also scrapped a cap it had placed last year on the number of visas that could be issued to Chinese workers involved in various projects in the country, the Press Trust of India reported this week.

India had tightened its visa rules last December in a way that demanded a closer scrutiny of applications in case more than 1% of a project’s work force were outsiders amid concerns that a large number of foreign nationals were being brought to work, marginalizing employment opportunities for locals. Under the revised rules, only skilled workers will get employment visas in place of the business ones that were issued earlier.

Experts say India wants increased Chinese participation in infrastructure projects.

“By lifting the visa ceiling, India is trying to woo the Chinese to enter Kashmir, says Srikanth Kondapalli, professor of Chinese studies at New Delhi’s Jawaharlal Nehru University.

Prof. Kondapalli says China’s investment in Kashmir could lend stability to the violence-hit state “if China can extract a promise from Pakistan about highway protection in the region.”

India recently awarded a road project in Kashmir to a Chinese joint venture company.

“The government of India cleared (the project) from security point of view,” Mr. Nath said in Beijing Wednesday. “We awarded the contract because of Chinese involvement in terms of investment, project management and technology.”

Mr. Kondapalli, however, advised that India should continue to tread cautiously, rather than throwing open its doors to the Great Neighbor to the north.

“India should not jump the gun,” he said. “But wait to see how China reacts to the hand of friendship,” he said.

–Vibhuti Agarwal
he he he....interesting times. Who said, we are not Chanakyan!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Sanjay M »

(BBC)Japan to ask China to pay for damaged patrol vessels

Japan will ask China to pay for damage to two patrol vessels caused by a collision with a Chinese trawler in disputed waters, Tokyo has said.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Rupesh »

dinesha wrote:Only our fears can encircle us
Suhasini Haidar
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true
Instead of being alarmed at China's growing inroads in the region, India needs to take a harder look at its own role and find new ways to win neighbours and increase influence in the region's growth story.

No one would accuse Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of being alarmist. So when, addressing the Heads of Missions last month, he spoke of paying close attention to “global powers exercising influence in the Indian Ocean Region,” it was assumed that the Prime Minister was genuinely concerned about China's growing role in the region. When he spoke to editors some days later about his concerns on China again, the assumption was sealed.


the Hambantota port, for example, was offered to India first. New Delhi's lack of interest in developing this strategically located harbour was easily the gain of China, which worked double time to complete the project with $60 billion funded from China's Exim bank ( 60 billion, figure pulled out of her musharraf ), building the port, the city centre, the airport, a stadium, and a massive convention centre. Many in India worry that Hambantota's future could include a Chinese naval base too.[/b]


(Suhasini Haidar is the Deputy Foreign Editor, CNN-IBN.)
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pulikeshi »

There are no significant reports of such stand-offs coming in from the northeastern border, sources said.
So the standoff on the northwestern border is 'part real' and northeastern is not :P :mrgreen:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:I do not specifically recall anyone demanding the derecognition of Tibet as part of China as an action India should take.
De-recognition of Tibet Thread
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

Shiv,

The Issue is not that India is helped or hindered by the US, it is also not is the PRC is a help or hindrance for India.

The Issue to me is that India ought to work with any power which helps India in making a transition form a primarily agrarian economy to an Industrialized and developed economy.

Your point of the US suppling conventional weapons to the TSP thereby impinging upon Indian security, is taken. But that was in the past even today if the supplies are taking place I say it is irrelevant to the growth of Indo US relationship. For a simple reason that I have not seen an Institutionalized attempt by the US to intervene in India TSP affairs since Kargil. Even in Kargil it was in India's favor. Most recently the nuttiness in the valley has made the US state that the matter is an internal affair of India. This is an attempt by the US to further Improve its relationship with India by making all the right noises.

Right now if we assume that both PRC and the US are enemies of India, and we see the capability of both, then clearly it is the US that is greater threat to India. But the capability in the absence of intention will not result in action against Indian interests.

This gives us an opportunity to seek an engagement with the US on terms that are in favor of India if we are clever in our negotiations with the US.

In contrast to the US, we have major disagreement with the CCP of China, stemming from the territorial disputes against India to the supply of WMDs to an unstable regime that has made it clear to the ROW that when ever it faces a real threat from any quarter it will use Nukes against India.

That represents a clear and present danger to the Indian people and state.

Moreover, PRC also has also made claims on Indian lands. So the threat represented by the PRC is both clear and present.

It dose not mean that India and PRC cannot reach an accord. But for that to happen, PRC must recognize the territorial integrity of India along with fulfilling all the conditions of the Panchsheel agreement. IIRC, the Indian recoganisation of PRC take over of Tibet was based on Tibetan autonomy. But that has not been fulfilled by the PRC. This gives an opening to India where Tibet is concerned.

Before I finish I must say that India must do what is in its interests without and concern to international norms. If that means that India acts like an Bitc h and a W hore then so be it. Our state policy must be based on a cold appreciation of international reality.

JMT
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Sep 27, 2010
Editorial
The new East Asia world order: Taipei Times
President Ma Ying-jeou (馬英九) was no doubt pleased last week when Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao (溫家寶) offered his reassurances concerning the missiles China has aimed at Taiwan. Ma has repeatedly called on Beijing to remove the missiles if the two sides of the Taiwan Strait are to begin political negotiations.

However, a closer look at Wen’s remarks indicate little to be pleased about. It was not a policy statement, but merely an indifferent response to questions from a Taiwanese reporter.

As Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) Chairperson Tsai Ing-wen (蔡英文) said, “will one day be removed” was so vague that it is meaningless.

Not that being more specific would have helped. Had Wen provided a date and timetable, removing the weapons would still be little more than a gesture. Analysts repeatedly point out that if the missiles are moved, they can easily be replaced if negotiations do not produce the desired results. And if China gets what it wants: It can deploy the missiles elsewhere, which makes Taiwan’s problem everyone’s problem since China has no shortage of territorial disputes.
Here is a warning to all Indian strategy thinkers - If Taiwan is resolved to PRC's satisfaction, it would mean an increased danger to India.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Christopher Sidor »

dinesha wrote:Only our fears can encircle us
Suhasini Haidar
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/lead/ar ... epage=true
Instead of being alarmed at China's growing inroads in the region, India needs to take a harder look at its own role and find new ways to win neighbours and increase influence in the region's growth story.
Agreed on this point. India needs to look at this.
dinesha wrote: India's growing concern rose from two factors — the first, Beijing's sudden decision to provide Northern GOC General Jaswal with a stapled visa, saying his command includes a ‘disputed' region; and the other, newspaper reports that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) had approximately 11,000 soldiers in Gilgit-Baltistan, digging tunnels and posing a direct threat to India across the LoC.

Diplomats on both sides now say they are ‘sorting out' the visa issue, with Beijing on the back foot, particularly given that General Jaswal has travelled to China in the past. Meanwhile, the reported build-up in PoK was aggressively denied by Beijing and Islamabad, both insisting that the troops are there to help contain flood damage, and the impending threat of the Hunza dam overflowing, and also to work on the Karakoram Highway project.
Let us clarify over here
1) So it is true that there are Chinese troops in POK, ostentatiously for flood relief and highway construction. This was not some scare mongering by some external powers. How are we to assume that these troops will not be used for some other purpose? Purpose which can be nefarious? Now the precedent has been set. It will be repeated in the future, especially when another Kargil or something similar is done. Will India act against Pakistan, in case of another mumbai, if there are Chinese troops in Pakistan, ostentatiously helping some civilian project?
2) This whole episode of giving stapled visas, is precisely the reason why china is perceived the way it is in India.

At one level, the fears of China overrunning Pakistan to open a front with India may seem far-fetched, even hysterical.
Why is it seemed far-fetched? Is there any valid reason? And Hysterical? Are we so bad in history? Have we forgotten the Nazi's burst through the low lying countries, i.e. Belgium and Holland, bypassing the impenetrable Maginot line. Only difference over here will be that the low-lying countries actually resisted the nazi advance while Pakistan and the Maoist-controlled Nepal will not resist the chinese, in fact they might actually welcome it.
the Hambantota port, for example, was offered to India first. New Delhi's lack of interest in developing this strategically located harbour was easily the gain of China, which worked double time to complete the project with $60 billion funded from China's Exim bank, building the port, the city centre, the airport, a stadium, and a massive convention centre. Many in India worry that Hambantota's future could include a Chinese naval base too.[/b]

While Indian concerns about Hambantota are well known, practically no one speaks of the port project that India does have, in the northern town of Kankesenthurai (KKS). Originally, after the tsunami, the project was handed to the Dutch, but after India showed interest, the Sri Lankan President tore up that contract and invited India to build the port. Yet 18 months later, this harbour near Jaffna has seen little by way of construction; even a feasibility survey taken in June 2010 has not yet been finalised. Meanwhile Hambantota will receive its first ship in November, some six months ahead of schedule.
....
Given that the National Thermal Power Corporation (NTPC)-Sampur coal 500-MW plant is already delayed years beyond its 2011 deadline, it is hoped that other projects India has committed itself to including the northern rail line, the Palaly airport and the Jaffna stadium will be dealt with more expeditiously

I agree, we are very bad at execution. See the CWG games fiasco for the latest. We tend to take the "Chalta Hai" attitude or "Jana Bhi Do Yaaryo" attitude. This attitude will destroy us.
But coming back to the Chinese naval presence in Hambantota, it is also not that far fetched as it is made out to be. I have not heard of one valid reason why this cannot be case or will not be the case some time in the future.

A bolder move, but one that would win many hearts is to consider lifting tariff and non-tarrif barriers and duties unilaterally in the South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation (SAARC) region altogether.

Whoa here is the perfect receipt for bankrupting our industry. First of all we unilaterally lift the barriers, with out any reciprocation and secondly be prepared for Chinese companies to push their products through these countries. India has been very, in fact extremely supportive of its neighbors. It allows Nepalese to work in India, without any visa requirements. It also props up Nepalese currency. The fact that Sri-Lanka receives from India directly and indirectly financial support, is not taken into consideration. Here is a dirty little secret, Sri Lanka was able to wage a 20 year war, 1989-2008 against the terrorist group LTTE, was because of Indias support. Its economy would have tanked years ago had it not been for Indias help.


Suspend the reality of our relations with Pakistan for a moment to think about the impact of ending such protectionism in a year that has so devastated Pakistan's economy. According to estimates, the destruction of standing crops on two million hectares has virtually wiped out Pakistan's staple revenue from export of cotton, rice, and sugar. The country will be dependent on importing these for the next few years. With 77 million people likely to go hungry, and Pakistan's projected growth likely to fall by half to about two per cent, it is only natural that China's interventions in flood relief, rebuilding destroyed roads, schools and bridges, aid and trade will grow. The question is: will India watch with its customary alarm but do nothing?

So the author is basically saying, build up a country which has no intention of reforming itself. Pakistan is in this mess because of its own doing. Let it stew where it is. And frankly there is no problem with China or US or the Islamic world helping Pakistan. The issue is that using this help Pakistan tends to attack us. Just think about how India's offer of 5 million USD was perceived in Pakistan. The fact that India gave 20 million USD was also not taken in consideration. Personally I am hoping mad that we offered Pakistan even 5 million USD and then ended up giving 20 million USD. And why was this money given? So that no body in the international community blames us? It would have been better, if the PM had said, "We are willing to provide whatever is required, provided Pakistan asks for it directly from us".
India helping Pakistan will not get any brownie points. But Pakistan like a rabid dog, if not snake, would come back to haunt us. Suspend the reality, and walk into another nightmare? India has helped Pakistan a lot before. Whenever there used to be a shortage of some food items like onions, potatoes, etc in Pakistan we would help them. And Pakistan would even say, "please do not advertise the fact." We very generous, in fact over generous, with Pakistan where Indus Water Treaty was concerned. What do we have to show for it? Oh yes we have to something to show. Rajasthan and Gujarat, which have a rightful claim to Indus Water, have been denied it.
The Author is simply blind to history or is ignoring it. We did the same in 1962.

It is equally important to stand that assumption on its head, and consider India's stake in the prosperity and growth of its neighbours. Whether it's Mauritius or Maldives, Nepal, Sri Lanka, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Afghanistan or yes, Pakistan — these are countries with close cultural, linguistic, historic ties to India no other country can match. As a result, it shouldn't be possible for China or any other superpower to encircle a country like India. The only thing that encircles us is our fear that they will.

The author again ignores history. Our Magnanimity, w.r.t our neighbours has not been reciprocated. We have helped most of our neighbors. Most of our neighbors in fact resent us. It maybe due to our size and scale. Or it may be the fact that they resent that they are dependent on us. Or it maybe due to some internal political reasons. But do not make the mistake, that it is due to India not being generous.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Sep 27, 2010
PRC must end threat of war against Taiwan: Taiwan News
The least that the PRC government could do is to revoke the Anti-Secession Law of March 2005 in which it abrogated to itself the right to use "non-peaceful means" to effect Taiwan's "unification," that is to say, annexation.

Until PRC forces are removed from striking distance of Taiwan and until the Anti-Secession Law (or any similar statute) is revoked, there will be no grounds for claims that there has been a genuine "detente," much less reconciliation," across the Taiwan Strait that goes beyond the brotherly hugs and kisses lavished between KMT and CCP leaders to reach Taiwan's 23 million people.
Leaving aside the thorny question of who has sovereignty over the islets, the detention and investigation of the Chinese trawler captain's dangerous and likely criminal actions was perfectly justified and Tokyo's foreign ministry rejected Beijing's demand Saturday as "groundless."

If the PRC can negate the validity of the laws of another state due to its own political factors, the question is surely open as to how much Beijing sees itself bound by any agreement or verbal promise to Taiwan, which it does not even recognize as a state. {The word of China carries no weight. It is always Taqiyya onlee. Indians too should not be taken in by some Chinese nonsensical words of comfort on the boundary question. Only concrete withdrawal of PRA missiles and PLA troops from PoK and Tibet means something, a little bit}

Amazingly, some KMT prominent figures, blinded by Chinese nationalist ideology, have defended the PRC's hegemonic stance by publically stating that Beijing's stance did not contradict that of the "Republic of China" government. {KMT seems to have been taken over by CPC. India should try to win over DPP}

Such statements gives credence to speculation in the world community of the formation of a tacit "united front" between the KMT and CCP regimes against Japan.

The best foundation for Beijing's future cross-strait policy that would help ensure that Taiwan is a friendly neighbor would be to acknowledge, at least tacitly, that Taiwan is now a democratic independent state and that the shape of future bilateral relations rests on the will of Taiwan's 23 million people instead of anti-democratic platitudes such as "the wisdom of the Chinese race" or KMT-CCP "co-governance."

In the meantime, we also hope the Ma government and the ruling KMT can put the defense of Taiwan's independence and democracy first and refrain from further unseemly gushing over PRC platitudes.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Continued from PRC Thread

Published on Apr 10, 2010
By Peter Hitchens
Gendercide: China's shameful massacre of unborn girls means there will soon be 30m more men than women
By the year 2020, there will be 30 million more men than women of marriageable age in this giant empire, so large and so different (its current population is 1,336,410,000) that it often feels more like a separate planet than just another country. Nothing like this has ever happened to any civilisation before.
The nearest we can come to it is the sad shortage of men after the First World War in Britain, France, Russia and Germany, and the many women denied the chance of family life and motherhood as a result.
Other reports say 40 million more men than women.

TonyMontana is probably implying that PRC has many more men than women in PRC, which means there are around 30 million more men for PRC to throw at any wars that PRC undertakes, without suffering any consequences of future population decline, as these men would not have had any mates anyway. So PRC would be having 30 million men available as cannon fodder.

Some parallels can be drawn to Islam and TSP. If a society allows a man to take 4 wives, it means the the society would be heavily skewed and screwed in favor of a situation where many men, especially poor men, would not find any mates. This gives the men an added incentive to be recruited in the lashkars and armies, especially as the prospect of capturing the women of the enemy and sex with them is dangled as a carrot.

Similarly one could argue, that PRC's one-child policy with an additional wink-wink-nudge-nudge policy of allowing gender tests for embryos, is a deliberate tactic of nurturing a society with too many additional men who have no prospect of getting a mate in the land. These men would be mostly from the poor strata of society, and willing to serve in the PLA.

So either PRC develops so much that all these men can afford mates from outside the country, which means the men would be working extra hard to appeal to the women in the marriage market, and those that cannot get any women at home would be poaching in other nearby countries. Those who do not have the money, they can act as cannon fodder for the army and its designs of hegemony, especially as they have no families to think about. Whichever way one sees it, as development or as destruction, both strengthen PRC.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Sep 27, 2010
By Margot Chen
Taiwan be on guard to Beijing’s crafty ways: Taipei Times
This suggestion gave an indication that the focus of the next stage of KMT-CCP cooperation will be to connect cross-strait culture and promote Chinese culture as a foundation for building a wider Chinese society.

As this trend continues to develop, more issues between Taiwan and China will be brought to the negotiation table. If such talks do take place, Taiwanese must be alert and have a basic understanding of China’s negotiation trickery in order to monitor such talks appropriately.

Most importantly, we need to keep a close eye on China’s “good friends” in Taiwan to ensure that Taiwan’s national interests are not sacrificed to meet their vested interests.

The Chinese are obsessed with personal connections. They are adept at cultivating, utilizing and pressuring people in the rival camp, who are friendly to China, to reach its goals in a negotiation. {India needs to keep a close check on who from the Indian side is meeting with the Chinese, and lookout for his or her statements on India-China relations} The most famous example are talks in the 1970s on normalizing Sino-US relations.

Through China’s friends, including Henry Kissinger, the US secretary of state under former US presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford, and Zbigniew Brzezinski, former US president Jimmy Carter’s national security advisor, Beijing reached its goals as the US cut ties and abolished agreements with Taiwan, withdrew its troops stationed in Taiwan and established diplomatic ties with China.

Another key issue is the question of how to break through the government’s exclusion of Taiwan’s democratic monitoring mechanisms.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Hari Seldon »

India needs to keep a close check on who from the Indian side is meeting with the Chinese, and lookout for his or her statements on India-China relations
People from India's mainstream communist parties, who have never gone on pilgrim,age/ set foot in china, swear by Beijing bhakti and by Cheeni interests over Desi ones.

That said, the statements of sri jairam Ramesh, who probably got swayed with the copenhagen cooperation bonhomie did cause some consternation.

In any case, has anyone from our de facto royal family been paying visits to Beijing? Some rumor had surfaced about trips to macao and all ...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by SaiK »

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100927/wl ... ttibetrail
China begins Tibet railway extension
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:
There are no significant reports of such stand-offs coming in from the northeastern border, sources said.
So the standoff on the northwestern border is 'part real' and northeastern is not :P :mrgreen:
Talking about part real and part mental did you read the first line of that news report?

It is characteristic of the deep fear that Indians feel about China. China seems to arouse anxieties and dread in the media, among the general population and on here. That is half the battle won for China. The shivering dhoti factor.

Here is the first line:
The Indian establishment is worried about a startling increase in the number of stand-offs between Indian and Chinese border patrols and more aggressive posturing by Chinese soldiers along the border.
No mention is made about who "the establishment" might be. Clearly it is someone that the reporter met.It's not just BRF. The parents of my generation (and the grandparents of many on BRF) wept and lamented with their hero, Nehru in 1962. Their kids inherited that fear and passed on that fear to their own kids in turn.

The funny thing is if you talk to people from the army, who are the people on the spot counting thses standoffs and reporting to the "establishment" - they will say "That is what we are there for. We are there to take care of those standoffs". Air Force people will say "Let them come. We are prepared"

But in general the media and the language on BRF is the language of fear and respect. Call me insane - but I don;t think there is any need to be that scared. I positively refuse to be so shit scared - it's a friggin shame to be so pathetically yellow that the Pakistaniyat in me is less yellow than that and tells me here is no point in being that scared. There is deep fear piskology here that is clearly "advanatge China"

But Indians in general fear the Chinese so much that any chance of their impending "arrival near the border means a lost war. We are scared of China to an extent that is irrational. There are two thoughts I get when I observe his national trait, this irrational Bharatiya Sinophobia

1) We ignore other threats and could well jump from frying pan into fire as we dread the Chinese so much
2) If we are so weak that we give up when we start thinking of the Chinese coming over - we have already lost. No need to worry. Might as well sit back and take it.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote:
shiv wrote:I do not specifically recall anyone demanding the derecognition of Tibet as part of China as an action India should take.
De-recognition of Tibet Thread
Oh that thread. Does anyone discuss derecognition of Tibet there? I have missed it - the thread holds zero interest for me and I have voted against making the Dalai Lama president. But what has that got to do with derecognition of Tibet as part of China?

One of the things that China does is to come up with innovative new irritants. We are always complaining that we are reactive and that we cannot do anything on our own. Just because China has disputes with our territory if we start doing a tit for tat on Tibet - it may serve as an irritant but it is still a mirror image reaction.

What is needed (in my view) is to do a tit for tat irritation of china and get into a diplomatic lungi dance with them - which is what they want. There are so many things that we can pick on. Human rights in China environmental degradation. Lack of democracy. Export of poor quality and toxic products. Social engineering. We can have an entire thread here just blasting China and ripping open their echandee and hope that our dhoti shivering "establishment" gets the idea. Of course the interesting thing about China is that they protest at such things but don't care. When China does a similar symbolic bit of ch**tiyapanati we too could protest but ultimately ignore Chinese howls.

The Chinese need a bit of their own medicine with inane, meaningless taunts. "How does it feel if I fart in your face?"

As regards de recognition of Tibet as part of China - I have no clear view now. I think the issue needs serious attention but nobody has told me what it will achieve. Of course the idea of making Dalai Lama President of India is like pricking a voodoo doll representation of China with pins and hoping that will have an effect on the real China. But that's my opinion.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

The Indian Leadership knows and should know, that any territorial losses to India or any loss of face on the field like that of Japan would mean one and only one thing - the Indian people would come and chew the Indian Leaders alive.

So there is reason for Indian Leadership to be fearful. They should also know that appeasement of PRC, in order to avoid unpleasant conflicts with them, would in the end be a lot more damaging for them.

What the Indian Leadership needs to survive is some real leadership.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
shiv wrote:I do not specifically recall anyone demanding the derecognition of Tibet as part of China as an action India should take.
Oh that thread. Does anyone discuss derecognition of Tibet there? I have missed it - the thread holds zero interest for me and I have voted against making the Dalai Lama president. But what has that got to do with derecognition of Tibet as part of China?
That Thread deals primarily with de-recognition of Tibet as part of China.

HH Dalai Lama's Presidency of India is merely the red cherry on top of cake - it is a suggestion which forms one part of the mechanism of de-recognition. The name of the thread was chosen for its provocative nature (to Indians).

Even as that aspect is of little interest to you, you might like to bite into the meat/cake of the arguments on that thread, provided you find time and interest. You can enjoy it without the cherry too.

I am not in favor of causing irritants and provocations to China, just for the sake of angering them. That would be childish and serve no real purpose. Such provocations would be haphazard and follow no plan, no strategy. I am in favor of developing sub-conflict options for India, and then implementing them with determination in a calibrated way. Some of those steps would prove provocative to China but these they would have to live with.

De-Recognition of Tibet is a major plank of such a plan, and much of it has been discussed at length in that thread.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: I am in favor of developing sub-conflict options for India, and then implementing them with determination in a calibrated way. Some of those steps would prove provocative to China but these they would have to live with.

De-Recognition of Tibet is a major plank of such a plan, and much of it has been discussed at length in that thread.
Ah OK. Well I think I will pass. The main reason is that I think a nation of people who are scared at the thought that China may cast an angry glance at India will need a lot of psyching up before we can effectively meddle in China directly.

I am all for speak softly and carry a big stick. The pain for attacking India should be severe and stay in memory. But while such statements are attractive and satisfying rhetoric, there are those nations who have inflicted pain on India while appearing to be benign and friendly, using proxies. I do not want to see them laughing or getting away - should we get into an intractable conflict with one nation. And we are still not out of the "intractable conflict" woods with Pakistan yet.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: I am in favor of developing sub-conflict options for India, and then implementing them with determination in a calibrated way. Some of those steps would prove provocative to China but these they would have to live with.

De-Recognition of Tibet is a major plank of such a plan, and much of it has been discussed at length in that thread.
Ah OK. Well I think I will pass. The main reason is that I think a nation of people who are scared at the thought that China may cast an angry glance at India will need a lot of psyching up before we can effectively meddle in China directly.

I am all for speak softly and carry a big stick. The pain for attacking India should be severe and stay in memory. But while such statements are attractive and satisfying rhetoric, there are those nations who have inflicted pain on India while appearing to be benign and friendly, using proxies. I do not want to see them laughing or getting away - should we get into an intractable conflict with one nation. And we are still not out of the "intractable conflict" woods with Pakistan yet.
You asked about De-Recognition of Tibet. So I responded.

If you do not deem it right to support it, then so be it.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pulikeshi »

^Sorry Shiv, seems fear is being setup as a strawman here...

Fear of Chinese aggression is a reasonable response given Chinese actions.
What is a irrational response is for India to be afraid of China.

Actually, notice how easy it is to say Army and Airforce are ready.
So, me what worry? India is a status-quo power onlee :mrgreen:

Is defense the best offense when it comes to China?

Why this takaleef with US, where was such takaleef for USSR?
Every power uses another power in one way or another...

Best to tell China, if you want to be a Asia power, Pakistan is your problem no? :P

We can agree to disagree and move on.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote: Fear of Chinese aggression is a reasonable response given Chinese actions.
What is a irrational response is for India to be afraid of China.
If that is your view so be it. You have a lot of people for company. I doubt if I will be able to explain the difference between rational fear and phobia to you. At an individual level it can be difficult enough. At a national, societal level trying to explain is likely to lead to irritation. My mental make up does not permit the level of fear of China which you consider as normal and rational. But you are you and I am me.
Actually, notice how easy it is to say Army and Airforce are ready.
So, me what worry? India is a status-quo power onlee :mrgreen:
They say they are ready. (in fact that is what I wrote and not what you have said above). They will face those Chinese who cause Indians so much fear. Do you believe them or not? If you don't believe them you have reason to be afraid. I believe them.
Is defense the best offense when it comes to China?
I have stated my views on this more than once.
Why this takaleef with US, where was such takaleef for USSR?
Every power uses another power in one way or another...
Fair enough. If you don't have takleef with the US I will accept that. But there is no need for anyone to feel concerned about my relative lack of takleef with China.
Best to tell China, if you want to be a Asia power, Pakistan is your problem no?
Sorry- I didn't understand that.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Published on Sep 27, 2010
India has no threat from China: Pallam Raju: ANI
Minister of State for Defence M M Pallam Raju on Monday dispelled notions of insecurity along the areas bordering China, and asserted India has no threat from China.

"Every country works towards saving its own interest...from that point of view, even China will do whatever it has to, while we take our adequate safeguards in protecting our interests," said Pallam Raju, while interacting with the media persons after commissioning the new set up of Bharat Dynamics Limited, a unit functioning under the Ministry of Defence here today.

Pallam Raju also mentioned that India is acquiring and upgrading warships and weapons of the Indian Navy as a part of the defence policy.

"In terms of deterrence capabilities we are building up. We do all that we can to protect our nation's interest and in terms of strengthening the border infrastructure and strengthening the capabilities on the border. So we don't have to worry on that front," he added.

Diplomatic ties between India and China have become increasingly fraught over an unsettled border, the disputed Kashmir region and the competing global aspirations of the world's most populous nations
Why is Chinese aggressiveness and expansionism being considered their 'national interests' and deemed legitimate, while we opt for minimalistic defense, letting China intrude into our strategic space, and any aggressive defense of our strategic space is considered 'paranoid' and 'provocative'? :evil:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

View from South Korea
Published on Sep 28, 2010
By Lee Hee-ok
Dealing with an assertive China: JoongAng Daily
The territorial friction between China and Japan will have spillover effects on us {Koreans} as well, since we have had long disputes with China over history and territory. The territorial dispute can exacerbate strained Sino-Korean ties and widen differences over regional issues following Beijing’s backing of North Korea over the Cheonan case.

We are far weaker than Japan in contesting China, a market that accounts for 80 percent of our trade surplus and 24 percent of our outbound shipments. The alliance with the U.S. won’t give enough traction to help us counter the new wave in the Northeast Asian order. We must come up with an entirely new strategy on China so that we can survive together. The powerful and imperative Chinese presence leaves us no other choice.
The new strategy would be an Asian Security Alliance!
Last edited by RajeshA on 27 Sep 2010 21:36, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pulikeshi »

shiv wrote:
Best to tell China, if you want to be a Asia power, Pakistan is your problem no?
Sorry- I didn't understand that.
Thanks for being who you are and being polite even if we disagree - I still owe you a beer ;-)

All I meant above was that India has already outsourced its foreign policy wrt to Pakistan to US,
given US is an Asian power.

If China is acceptable to India as an Asian power as well, perhaps Pakistan is China's problem no?

India (and historic states prior to Independence) has a sad history of building defenses,
waiting for invasions as every intruder had a right to their interests...
but India(ns) had no right to leave the country and offend anyone.

India need not be afraid of China or US or Pakistan. If India can formulate what Asia is for her.

The fear of being played, means India never plays! :evil:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

RajeshA wrote: You asked about De-Recognition of Tibet. So I responded.

If you do not deem it right to support it, then so be it.
:D You are the second person in the last 24 hours to use this rhetorical Bushism on me. "If you are not for us, you are against us" :D

I have said - I don't know the answer. I will have inform myself much more about the subject before I can take a stand. If a vote on the matter is forced on me. I would abstain.

Googling tells me the following:
http://www.expressindia.com/story_print ... yId=296828
India unilaterally ‘recognised’ the ‘Tibet Autonomous Region,’ as ‘a territory of China,’ for the first time during Vajpayee’s China visit in 2003. Before this, India’s terminology in official documents was deliberately left ambiguous. In 1954 India described Tibet as a geographic location: ‘the Tibet region of China.’ In 1988, the Rajiv Gandhi government brought it closer to China’s position, but still kept it vague enough with, ‘Tibet is an autonomous region of China.’ The 2003 declaration toes the Chinese line word-for-word.

What are the implications of accepting Tibet as an ‘integral part of China’? First, leaving aside the distortion of Tibet’s long history of independence, the declaration contravenes the treaty obligations between British India and Tibet, which we have inherited under the Indian Independence Act of 1947. Two treaties directly affect our territorial integrity: the 1904 Convention Between Great Britain and Tibet, which recognises the boundary between Tibet and Sikkim, and the Anglo-Tibet Treaty of 1914, in which India recognised Tibet as an independent nation under the suzerainty (as opposed to sovereignty) of China. In return, Tibet was to respect the Mc Mahon Line, the eastern boundary between Tibet and Arunachal. Until the Chinese invasion of Tibet, both agreements held and the border was peaceful.
A short history of Tibet in the link below clarifies the issue a little bit
http://www.dalailamanederland.nl/site/? ... 56&lang=en

Britain used Tibet as a buffer against China and Russia. They neither allowed Tibetan independence, nor did they allow Chinese occupation. But Britain acknowledged Chinese "suzerainty" over Tibet. The Macmahon line (Arunachal-Tibet border) was demarcated in 1904 in an agreement with Tibet. China's biggest fear is that Tibet, which was historically connected with India would fall into the Indian sphere of influence unless China maintains a firm grip on Tibet.

Of course Indian leaders have bloviated a lot about Tibet and produced much hot air, including Atalji who said:
“...from the point of view of national interests, the fact that Tibet is being annihilated cannot be for the good of India in the long run.”
India has no firm policy on Tibet. But looking at the history of Tibet, it seems that demanding that Tibet should be an independent state is a good idea. Tibet was indeed independent of China for a long time despite Chinese claims to the contrary. A lot of Tibetans living in India have accepted that they could settle for true autonomy within China. Only China is not giving them that autonomy. As one link says "A China that is willing to accept one country - two political systems with Taiwan and Hong Kong is unwilling to do that with Tibet because they are certain that Tibet's natural affinity will be with India." Tibet could be China's "soft underbelly".

But with 200,000 Tibetans in India - if we "recognise" Tibet as an independent nation to "discomfort China" as the article linked below says, what are we going to do about it to help create an independent state out of Tibet? A military campaign into Tibet would be the only way as far as I can tell. Otherwise it is a symbolic demand that will rest on the backburner indefinitely. I still don't have an answer that satisfies me.

Anyhow this is a good article.
Why India should rake up Tibet
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

shiv wrote:
RajeshA wrote: You asked about De-Recognition of Tibet. So I responded.

If you do not deem it right to support it, then so be it.
:D You are the second person in the last 24 hours to use this rhetorical Bushism on me. "If you are not for us, you are against us" :D
shiv saar,
you do me injustice. That was not the import of my remarks! I'm sorry if you misunderstood me.
ramana
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Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

Dont worry.
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