LCA News and Discussions

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 26 Sep 2010 23:25

This is how they innovate, keep doing R&D, and if required using company funds if the technology is considered to be worth it and they don't want to get into the ITAR issues using GOTUS money..technology doesn't stand still and if they are successful in developing and maturing this technology, it will be a HUGE benefit, driving out nearly 250 - 450 kgs of weight from the F-414 engine of the future..a HUGE weight advantage for any fighter, single or twin engined. aside from that, fuel burn will be possibly reduced, further improving range.

GE Aviation expects to begin ground tests in October in Peebles, Ohio, on a unique GEF414 F/A-18 fighter jet engine featuring a ceramic matrix composite low-pressure turbine blade that offers weight-savings and fuel-efficiency potential for military and commercial engines.

Ceramic matrix composite (CMC) technology has worked its way onto jet engines in the past, including the hot sections. GE has applied it to liners, shrouds, nozzles and vanes. The significance of the low-pressure turbine (LPT) blade, which measures about 4-in. long and weighs a few ounces, is that it is the first time the company has been able to make a CMC rotating part, says Dale Carlson, head of GE’s Advanced Engine Systems unit in Evendale.

The technology is half the weight of titanium and a third the weight of nickel, both metals prized for their strength and heat resistance for engine interiors. Ceramic matrixes also are resistant to heating, so they reduce the need for internal cooling flows. A set of CMC vanes could drive 500-1,000 lb. from an engine’s LPT system, Dale says.

The material’s brittleness has been a drawback, although Dale says the LPT blade GE has produced does not suffer that problem.

The technology holds the promise that designers can pursue constant volume combustion to reduce fuel burn in engines because their pressurization increases can be kept constant, he says. The research was conducted under a Naval Energy Initiative contract from Naval Air Station Patuxent River, Md.

article link

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 27 Sep 2010 01:35

So, the time is ripe for GTRE to be given the single-crystal technology. IAF will suddenly start demanding these weight savings from all competitors for MMRCA and LCA-Mk2 engines. And, Russians will claim that they have this tech in a prototype ready just one stage removed from serial production.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 27 Sep 2010 04:05

Listen guys after I got everyone,s blood pressure up I do agree with some of your arguments. But The fact remains that the tax payer who foots the bill for PSUS and the user, the Indian armed forces do not have a very positive opinion of india,s psus.

Having been born and brought up among India,s business houses I can only tell you no big Indian conglomerate would refuse a offer from the govt if there is money to be made. Make them a offer they can not refuse for the sake of India. What offer Rajiv gandhi made behind closed doors and what was the fine print we do not know the exact details ( and if you do please share it with us ).

If anyone from the Indian govt reads this forum( guys like shashi tharoor ) it is a request please unleash the creative energies of India,s engineers in the defense sector. India has been on the wrong path and continues on the wrong path with half hearted attempts to bring in the private sector in the defense arena.

India has one major advantage over china and that is it has mature and large industrial houses capable of undertaking complex defense projects. Only these companies are capable of bringing the thousands of very intelligent Indian engineers from the grip of sherkhan( with TOT in their brains ) . Here is hoping against hope that someone is listening in the govt.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 27 Sep 2010 04:49

SNahata,

Before just going on arguing, please read this article.

http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/thsc ... 09/&prd=th&

And then see who the authors are.

You will then get a better understanding of the LCA and what it means to be developing such an aircraft, including the challenges.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 27 Sep 2010 05:27

SNahata

Did you read AM Philip Rajkumar's book? For the CLAW and engines, LCA needed help of foreign countries, needed negotiations at the governmental level.

To put it in perspective, the only 2 car models made in India in 1983 was Ambassador and Premier Padmini. Maruti Udyong was getting set up then. And that is the time people were drawing up a project definition document for a fighter with capabilities more than Mirage 2000!! (note that Mirage 2000 can still kick the musharraf of any plane in Paki inventory) What was our private sector manufacturing base then? TATAs started work on the Indica in 1992. The first car offered in 1998. We are talking about a car here. No composites, no jet engines, no aerodynamics with 9G turns, avionics, RADAR, mission computer, weaponization, ejection seats or self protection suite! And it took them six years with european design help, imported maal, no technology denials.

I agree about "unleashing the creative energy of the private sector". the point is, there was no private sector with creativity worth unleashing back then.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Sep 2010 06:00

And that is the time people were drawing up a project definition document for a fighter with capabilities more than Mirage 2000!!

I assume you are trying to equate the person/people behind the fighter effort with that of the car.

With all due respects to ALL the people who have written books and done other things, the fact remains that these people were just about the cream in the aircraft design industry back then in the west. They had studied under the very best and were some of the very best consultants in the industry. The had standing offers to come back and Indian ministers (on foreign trips) were told that. Their name/s would come up in the same sentence as V. Sarabhai and Dhawan. No less.

We need to have some respect for such people.

And, just BTW, it was NOT the Mirage 2000 that they were trying to beat. It WAS the F-16C - in specific. Let there be no doubt about that.

There is a lot to be said that is not written in books.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 27 Sep 2010 06:09

For the CLAW and engines, LCA needed help of foreign countries, needed negotiations at the governmental level.

I have not read this book. Can someone provide the year in which this request was processed? TIA.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 27 Sep 2010 12:21

NRao wrote:
And that is the time people were drawing up a project definition document for a fighter with capabilities more than Mirage 2000!!
I assume you are trying to equate the person/people behind the fighter effort with that of the car.

With all due respects to ALL the people who have written books and done other things, the fact remains that these people were just about the cream in the aircraft design industry back then in the west. They had studied under the very best and were some of the very best consultants in the industry. The had standing offers to come back and Indian ministers (on foreign trips) were told that. Their name/s would come up in the same sentence as V. Sarabhai and Dhawan. No less.

We need to have some respect for such people.

And, just BTW, it was NOT the Mirage 2000 that they were trying to beat. It WAS the F-16C - in specific. Let there be no doubt about that.

There is a lot to be said that is not written in books.

I think you completely misunderstood what Anujan was trying to say.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 27 Sep 2010 13:32

To have an appreciation of the kind of challenges in developing a jet fighter for a country with a relatively undeveloped industrial base it would be worthwhile to have a look at the challenges that the IAI faced when they were tasked with building the Mirage 5 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_Mirage_V) for Israel post De Gaulle's sanctions. An excellent fictionalized account, on the challenges was penned by James Follet in Mirage.

http://www.amazon.com/Mirage-James-Foll ... =1-1-fkmr0

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Sep 2010 14:37

Let's just compare two projects,one in the govt. sector and another identical one in the private sector.I'm talking here about "Maruti" and the "Nano".The GOI in its wisdom of the time,ruled by Mrs.G.,not wanting son Sanjay's dream to fail,picked Suzuki as its JV partner for producing a small car for the Indian masses.The rest is history.Maruti freed middle-class India from its shackles and helped kick-start a whole new auto econonic boom.Similarly,the Nano,was a stroke of indigenous genius by Tata,which shows every indication of being a huge success.Why have both succeeded? Firstly,the GOI chose their JV partner wisely,it was good a design and production facilities were established very well.Local manufacture of components was set up progressively,establishing a huge new industry.The dealership network saw the success spread across the country.Maruti becames the "people's car" for India,just as the Nano is to become the "poor man's car" for the nation.

In these two examples,we see that both routes,PSU and Private sector can both win ,provided that they establish their priorities well and follow them through meticulously in a time bound manner.Sadly,the LCA and other defence projects have not followed these two examples,or at least that of Maruti.Why?

There are several reasons for the answers,perhaps the most important being that of lack of overall leadership.Like the CWG,the LCA had many bosses or competing "committe-wallahs",ADE,HAL,GTE,DRDO,MOD.IAF,etc.,etc.No LCA czar who could "hire and fire" and spot the tall tales of promise and delivery dates from the realistic ones.Secondly,Maruti was a promise to the Indian middle-class,who "Vote"! That is why it "had to succeed" and why the LCA was less important to the GOI at various times because there would always be an import alternative unlike the auto industry at that time,firmly controlled and shackled by the "Licence Raj",especially to benefit the makers of that ancient crone,the Ambassador!

So we can have both the public and private sector succeeding.The private sector is innovative and even if it does not possess the technology will quickly find it.See how well M&M have done exporting the indigenous Scorpio to many countries.I would suggest that the GOI/MOD liberate the aero-space industry to the aero-engine sector first which is anything but a success so far.This is the crying need of the hour,engines for so many programmes,which will get the GTRE off its butt becoming a success or be dumped.The Indian private sector will "beg,borrow or steal" and will succeed,especially when released from "captivity"!

alexis · Post by **alexis** » 27 Sep 2010 16:02

The government should give a tender for engines of MCA - to be 100% indigenous manufacturing . Two lowest bidders to be selected - highest for 60-70% of the order and the second for the rest. Engines to be manufactured within 10 years. Assured order book of XXX numbers. If one of them fails, the other would get 100% orders. 100% of the engine to be manufactured in India; the entity can be foreign owned (but with an Indian partner having minimum 26% holding). This way, the manufacturing technology would lie within India even if IP is with a foreign entity.

Let us see whether private sector or government sector can rise up to the challenge.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 28 Sep 2010 00:10

alexis wrote:The government should give a tender for engines of MCA - to be 100% indigenous manufacturing . Two lowest bidders to be selected - highest for 60-70% of the order and the second for the rest. Engines to be manufactured within 10 years. Assured order book of XXX numbers. If one of them fails, the other would get 100% orders. 100% of the engine to be manufactured in India; the entity can be foreign owned (but with an Indian partner having minimum 26% holding). This way, the manufacturing technology would lie within India even if IP is with a foreign entity.

Let us see whether private sector or government sector can rise up to the challenge.

Much of India's private sector is a joke in this regard..they would simply run to some foreign company that builds gas turbine engines (GE, P&W, Snecma, RR or the Eurojet consortium) and dress up a foreign designed, foreign developed engine as an "Indian engine" and try to pass it off. This was openly stated as a fear by the MoD regarding allowing more FDI in defence firms in India.

They've done this kind of thing in the name of JV, in the automotive sector for a long time and considering the ridiculously small sums of money they invest in R&D, things are unlikely to change in a cutting edge field like gas turbine engines.

besides, India is not rich enough nor has the trained technical manpower to run 2 simultaneous turbofan engine development efforts. The only way to do it is to harness the advantages of both PSUs and private industries. Either one on its own has drawbacks that will mean a failed effort.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Sep 2010 03:10

^^^ I agree in principal and add that we would have to come with a structure for IP control as well.

Let me add another example. Let us take the example of the basic trainer. If it was easy enough to build it, then how come the private parties are not getting into it? There is an assured market there (nationally and internationally). Everybody knew about this for the last 2 decades. The fact is that a modern basic trainer is also quite complex to build and it is not a five year job to set up the complex. I don't think our private sector is there yet!

On the other hand, departments in US universities build two seaters and infact Saras sized planes! So, it is just a matter of know how. We can't start by asking, "can you build LCA, or the engines for it?" I don't think that it is the right question to ask, right now. I think we are asking the wrong questions. We have to stop looking at the pvt. vs PSU. We should see how we can marry them.

For example, we know that we would need many utility planes. Throw a RFI to co-design a utility plane of certain tonnage. Set up HAL and NAL as a consultant in the project. Choose the private firm who is closest to be able to absorb the know-how required. Whatever HAL/NAL can't provide and the company can't design, they are free to get it whichever way they choose/can. Why should we be averse to get foreign knowhow. If the private firms can buy it, so be it. I am sure that it is very lucrative for the private industry. Such a plane is very open ended and has huge market. Here's a chance for a private player to get the know-how from HAL. We should have a framework to safeguard the IP. HAL/NAL gets consultancy fees (from whom? may be the government as part of national spending on defence. May be from the private firm which wins the deal). We would have brought up one player upto a point where he can absorb more.

This is what happened with L&T in the submarine case right. They were building parts. Now they believe they can learn how to put 2 and 2 together.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Sep 2010 05:00

I think we should shift this discussion to the right thread. How about the "India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector" thread?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2010 05:19

please do.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 28 Sep 2010 07:37

Please post your views if any in the India's R&D in Defence DRDO, PSUs and Private Sector thread

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 30 Sep 2010 13:31

It's GE F-414 for LCA Mk-II; EJ-200 loses the race in photo finish

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 30 Sep 2010 13:48

smpratik wrote:It's GE F-414 for LCA Mk-II; EJ-200 loses the race in photo finish

So this govt. has found a way to show GE is cheaper even when they had a higher quote! Expect lawsuits and more delays.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Sep 2010 13:52

white cat or black cat, we need to get started on Mk-II really fast because thats the bulk production variant.

we should insert a adharmic rider in RFPs that losing contenders cannot file a lawsuit or approach the courts in any fashion. god knows our media, political class and 'activists' are enough for that.

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 30 Sep 2010 13:54

adharmic

I like it singha ji

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 30 Sep 2010 13:56

smpratik wrote:It's GE F-414 for LCA Mk-II; EJ-200 loses the race in photo finish

This is exactly what happens when rumours of EJ being selected started doing the rounds. It gave enough time to Unkil to arm twist the very gullible GoI.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 30 Sep 2010 14:21

^^^ More confirmation...

THIS IS HUGE: GE F414 Engine Lowest Bidder To Power Tejas MK-II
Shiv Aroor reports..

Huge news, and it's official. The DRDO/ADA announced earlier today in a statement that the GE F414 engine has been identified as the lowest bidder in the race against the Eurojet EJ200, to power the LCA Tejas Mk-II. This turns things completely around. In recent weeks, there had been a spate of source-based reports suggesting that the EJ200 had the more competitive tender, though there had been no confirmation.

But now, a formal statement from DRDO! Here it is in full:

The Price Negotiating Committee for the Alternate Engine for LCA Mk-2 has finalised the Comparative Statement of Tenders. The committee had its representations from Ministry of Defence, Defence Finance, ADA, DRDO, HAL, Indian Air Force, and Indian Navy. After evaluation and acceptance of the Technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. Further price negotiations and contract finalization will follow.

This is huge. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) says it will now proceed with price negotiations with GE for the engine. MMRCA implications shouting loud: dust for Eurofighter. Massive boost for the F/A-18 and Gripen IN! Stay tuned for details.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 30 Sep 2010 14:21

Here come the F-18's

:(:(:(:(:(

Suresh S · Post by **Suresh S** » 30 Sep 2010 14:53

american arm twisting

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Sep 2010 14:57

The Americans are coming and will hold us by our hmmmm ok they will just shake hands

GE-414 if it wins will help Gripen and F-18 bids

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Sep 2010 15:12

Not too surprising considering the LCA is designed arround the GE 404

JMT

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Sep 2010 15:14

sorry, lowest bidder was not the option in MRCA (though out of scope of discussion here). Kaveri-snecma engine is the ultimate choice. again, lowest bidder does not mean highest ToTer that applies for MRCA and does not apply for LCA engines.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 30 Sep 2010 15:24

Despite of the repeated rejects and bolts to the LCA program, The Committee has selected the GE-414 for LCA?

This is a Bad day for Indian Aviation industry, since we have lost the golden opportunity remove the Dependency over Uncle and achieve max TOT for a better engine.

GE-414 is a good engine, will certainly fit the bill for LCA. But the question is how much TOT?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2010 15:28

If you all remember, FI was the first one to report that GE 414 was offered. Error 404 – Performance Not Found

As mentioned in the posts before GE with GE F414 Engine is lowest bidder for LCA Mk-2 Alternate Engine

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 30 Sep 2010 15:31

Are we about to put half of our fleet at uncle's mercy?

This govt is lame and has no mind of it's own.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2010 15:39

^^^^ GE's usefulness for f-414 is over. They are into f-136. With Obama threatening stuff on 5th gen and the other day GE boss saying that he would shut GE engines, this deal makes a lot of sense for Ymerica. Probably, ToT will follow.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 15:43

This is a really bad news. No TOT, little growth potential and the added perk of arm twisting and sanctions.

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2010 15:44

Bad, bad day, IMHO....

The Unkil hand shows up again...now, the MMRCA, Arty, Tanker and Helo deals are sure to go to..... ( with 3 % commission on FMS also thrown in)

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 30 Sep 2010 15:52

GE Aviation to Deliver 20 GE F-414 Engines for HAL Tejas Mark II; Deliveries Begin in 2014

sum · Post by **sum** » 30 Sep 2010 15:58

The GE-414 engines will be developed by the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) in Bangalore in collaboration with other DRDO agencies such as Aeronautical Development Agency and HAL.

Get the screwdrivers out and start work, GTRE...

So, this is the end of the Kaveri?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 30 Sep 2010 16:05

chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ GE's usefulness for f-414 is over. They are into f-136. With Obama threatening stuff on 5th gen and the other day GE boss saying that he would shut GE engines, this deal makes a lot of sense for Ymerica. Probably, ToT will follow.

When has the US allowed any level of substantial TOT of any modern military technology? That has not happened even for its closest allies.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 30 Sep 2010 16:48

Gaur wrote:
chackojoseph wrote:^^^^ GE's usefulness for f-414 is over. They are into f-136. With Obama threatening stuff on 5th gen and the other day GE boss saying that he would shut GE engines, this deal makes a lot of sense for Ymerica. Probably, ToT will follow.
When has the US allowed any level of substantial TOT of any modern military technology? That has not happened even for its closest allies.

I am just guesstimating.

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 16:49

Congratulations to MMS, Prime Minister of U$A and AKA, Defense Minister of U$A.
Let us all pray the F414 doesn't pop out like Bull $hit, when Opama presses 'Del' button on his laptop whenever our planes fly towards the west or east as well.

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 30 Sep 2010 16:50

Right - they don’t even give the screwdriver tech to their closet allies. Us getting anything will be expecting too much.

We will have to sort out Kaveri completely on our own.

venkyt · Post by **venkyt** » 30 Sep 2010 16:53

Just can't digest that we are yielding to horny U$A. This is pure arm twisting, much worse and expensive than what Ruskkies did to us in Gorky case.