LCA News and Discussions

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Oct 2010 10:18

shiv wrote:The C-17 is a bad deal because it is more expensive than the alternative. The F-414 is a bad deal because it is less expensive than the alternative.

Shiv you need to keep a little more faith in America

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Oct 2010 10:23

Well this news is good imho. And it will get better if a non US entity is chosen for the MRCA - that would be diversification. Anyway for now it is good because:

1) The decision has been made (at last) and the LCA development can move on. Thank God.
2) The GE-F414 (even the base version) provides some extra power, always useful imho.

Should allow for greater payload, and use of AESA radar. Also, it means that with comparable fuel/payloads, the Tejas in terms of sheer power, will exceed every single engined fighter in the market and match some of the high power twin engined birds out there (Rafale/MiG-35 for example). @ 6500kg empty and 10 ton thrust, the bird will surely show some zip. Sustained performance with its tiny wingloading should be excellent. Very like the M2k, but without its inherent drawback - poor power/sfc. It also means that a tested navalized engine is quickly available for the IN Tejas.

All in all, plenty of good news in this event, although there are always certain misgivings.

CM.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 01 Oct 2010 10:25

indranilroy wrote:Really, I am aching to see a glimpse of the Tejas Mark II.

But Singhaji wasn't it supposed to have an indigenous AESA radar, work on which had already commenced etc. etc.?

EL/M-2052 ... where did this news come from?

Recall some DDM articles mentioned that the Elta-2052 will be mounted on the Tejas in the interim till our indigenous MMR spawned. It was ofcourse Elta-2032.

I also recall EADS pandering the GOI to let it co-develop the MMR. Here's the link. Really don't know if the 2052 claims hold any substance. Only Shiv Aroor once mentioned something about it on his blog once.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 10:29

>> indigenous AESA radar

*cough cough* we are more likely to see a indigenous aesa in AEW and WLR application before the more challenging fighter aesa because of compactness,
power, need to guide missiles etc reqs are tight/more in fighters.

Israel should be ok with some indic parts in EL2052-I (for a price) and whatever gee-whiz modes and tricks we ask for.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 01 Oct 2010 10:32

Let's not jump the gun. This deal isn't final as yet. GE Aviation itself refused to comment on the deal right now and termed the situation "premature":

GE Aviation refused to comment on the deal itself and termed the situation "premature" as the specifics of this deal are still to be worked out. "GE Aviation is very hopeful that the decision will be to power the HAL Tejas with the F414." GE Aviation told India Defence (india-defence.com).

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4583

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Oct 2010 10:41

LCA airframe might have to be optimized a bit more I feel. Even the F404 is no slouch. The thrust to weight of Tejas is better than Gripen, but still seems to suffer from lack of good thrust in some flight regimes.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 01 Oct 2010 10:43

SriSri wrote:Let's not jump the gun. This deal isn't final as yet. GE Aviation itself refused to comment on the deal right now and termed the situation "premature":

GE Aviation refused to comment on the deal itself and termed the situation "premature" as the specifics of this deal are still to be worked out. "GE Aviation is very hopeful that the decision will be to power the HAL Tejas with the F414." GE Aviation told India Defence (india-defence.com).
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4583

MoD has given a press release, so it is as official as it can get. However, depending on how the ToT talks go with MoD and what GE agrees to should be signed off by the US DoS too. GE might be bit hesitant because of the next series of discussions that need to take place.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 01 Oct 2010 10:47

AFAIK there was a press statement issued by DRDO and comment by Dr. Prahlada. There hasn't been an MoD press release (correct me if I am wrong!).

You are correct about the next round of talks between the gobarmints of Amerikah and our babu log.

Let's look at DRDO's statement itself:

The Price Negotiating Committee for the Alternate Engine for LCA Mk-2 has finalized the Comparative Statement of Tenders. The committee had its representations from Ministry of Defence, Defence Finance, ADA, DRDO, HAL, Indian Air Force, and Indian Navy. After evaluation and acceptance of the Technical offer provided by both Eurojet and GE Aviation, the commercial quotes were compared in detail and GE Aviation was declared as the lowest bidder. Further price negotiations and contract finalization will follow.

GE Aviation's stance is correct. The deal is NOT finalized, as yet.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 01 Oct 2010 10:56

Spectacular self goal by DRDO/MoD

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Oct 2010 10:59

flight test update happened

LCA-Tejas has completed 1449 Test Flights successfully. (24-Sep-10).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-173, PV3-234,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-11)
LCA-Tejas has completed 1445 Test Flights successfully. (23-Sep-10).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-172, PV3-233,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-9)
LCA-Tejas has completed 1442 Test Flights successfully. (21-Sep-10).
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-242,PV2-172, PV3-233,LSP1-60,LSP2-159,PV5-17, LSP3-15,LSP4-6

1442 was the last update. so lsp4 is undergoing testing

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 01 Oct 2010 11:59

All in all a better,timely decision! the 414 already provides desired thrust levels, has navalized versions, scope for development and a better supply chain.

indranilroy wrote:If I am to read between the lines DRDO hints at even if the LCA Mark II order goes to 200 (I have a strong feeling that it will), then we would get the GE414s for them as well. What is the chance the HAL will get export orders with Kaveri when IAF is not fielding it itself. All export orders most probably will be with the GE engines.

I have one more question (had it for a while). What happens when we re engine the Mark IIs. I can see an upgrade of 414 going in again. How will Kaveri be fitted into operational airframes?

Indranil, if you remember right, one of the reasons the GE consultancy for the Tejas program did not go thru because they were putting down export restrictions on the engines developed with their help. So GE/Unkill will not let the LCA Mk-2 be exported with F414s. Would not be surprised if DRDO/GTRE counted on this fact with hopes on getting the Kaveri on export versions.

IMO, DRDO will possibly test the perfected Kaveri version by mating it with a Mk2 airframe sometime in future. Just like the Chinese operating few Jf-17s , IAF can buy a token batch powered by Kaveri, thus clearing the board for exports.

LCA exports (and weapons export in general) are necessary for India's strategic control of nations currently importing Chinese arms

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 12:02

does navalized engine mean some addl anti-rust coatings and ability to shrug off salty sea spray? in that sense 414 is already highly proven onboard f18e/f.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 14:22

isn't F414 are larger than F404

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 14:31

yes. and heavier.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 14:53

GE Beats Eurojet To Power Indian LCA
Aviation Week

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 14:55

Next-Gen ‘Indigenous’ LCA Fighters to be Powered by American Engines
The Indian Express

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 01 Oct 2010 14:56

American engine to power LCA

Company and DRDO sources say the additional expenses added on to the Eurojet bid included the cost of extra transfer of technology that the company had offered and the price of tooling to build the engine in India.

Although narrowly pipped at the post, Eurojet has not given up hope. Said Eurojet Business Development Executive Paul Herrmann: “We remain optimistic about this tender. Over the next year, I believe the Indian defence ministry will encounter problems in obtaining US sanctions for transfer of technology relating to the GE engine. And, if GE fails to meet these Indian requirements, the contract will come to us.”

In a statement, the company said: "We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection."

Defence ministry indicate that negotiations with GE will continue at least until mid-2011. Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 14:58

Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine
Livefist

[[email protected] IST]

The GE F414 turbofan is understood to have been found more price competitive when several other costs were Added to the fixed commercial proposals put forward by GE and Eurojet.

The other costs included custom modification of the engine, ground and flight-testing and certification of the modified engine and, crucially, technology transfer elements such as jigs, assemblies etc.

The deal, worth approximately $800-million, is for 99 engines, with options for 100 more.

GE hasn't reacted to the news just yet, but are likely to make a statement shortly. No official word from Boeing or Gripen, though folks at the Indian offices of both firms are appropriately delighted.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 14:58

Singha wrote:yes. and heavier.

The Tejas Mk.II s configuration will be change from LCA to MCA

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Oct 2010 14:59

GE wont loose this nice deal and what ever TOT required ( essentially Lic Production in India ) will be given by US , this is a strategic deal for US and would put it in a nice position viz a viz Tejas.

For EADS its hope against hope.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 15:06

JTull wrote:erican engine to power LCA

Company and DRDO sources say the additional expenses added on to the Eurojet bid included the cost of extra transfer of technology that the company had offered and the price of tooling to build the engine in India.

Although narrowly pipped at the post, Eurojet has not given up hope. Said Eurojet Business Development Executive Paul Herrmann: “We remain optimistic about this tender. Over the next year, I believe the Indian defence ministry will encounter problems in obtaining US sanctions for transfer of technology relating to the GE engine. And, if GE fails to meet these Indian requirements, the contract will come to us.”

In a statement, the company said: "We expect further details from Indian authorities and more information about the process leading to the announced selection."

Defence ministry indicate that negotiations with GE will continue at least until mid-2011. Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India.

Great.

It is now left of GE to either get permission from US Govt for full ToT otherwise withdraw from the competition. If GE withdraws that means end of F-18, F-16 & Gripen from MRCA Competition. That will make way clear for EF.

US would not want to happen this because India has a big market for their products, in other words US needs India than India need US for revival of their economy so best technology will be in our hands, just like Israels have.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 15:06

GE 414 to power HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft
..:: India Strategic ::..

In a Recent Interview, IAF’s Chief of Staff Air Chief Marshal P V Naik told India Strategic that The LCA could be Categorized as a Mig 21++, saying that its role be crucial in addition to the SU 30 MKIs and the MMRCA’s that the IAF is set to acquire.

Indications are that HAL would Manufacture More Than 200 LCAs for the Indian Air Force and Indian Navy,
and Some of These Would also be Used for Training Rookie Pilots in Future Towards Flying Advaced Combat Jets.

According to the official announcement, the Government would finalize the contract with GE after “further price negotiations.”

Notably, GE has offered to upgrade the engine in future with newer innovations for better thrust and optimum fuel utilization.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 15:15

But my question is if Tejas Mk II get heavier engine then it will have to be re-modified to incorporate such changes. This will virtually put LCA in to MCA category or lesser than that i.e., from present 6 ton to 8-12 ton category isn't it . Then proportionately its designs will have to be changed, it will further add to its weight.

So does India needs two fighter projects i.e., LCA & MCA ? when we are also going for T-50/PAKFA & FGFA

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Oct 2010 15:32

Boeing has always said that the US will meet the RFP requirements of ToT for the MRCA. The GE engines for the MRCA would have fallen into this same category.

Having said that there seem to be three sub-categories components for ToT can fall into. No ToT of any sort (US AESA techs?), complete ToT and we can give you ToT provided you are ready to absorb the technology.

The first are clear, it is the third that is damning.

Age old story, repeating itself again in 2010.

_______________________________

On the selection of the GE product, I suspect the timing is not missed - with Anthony in DC, to talk about those signatures that the US wants on those agreements. Seems to me that it is a clear signal that the ball in the court of the supplier.

I expect a very positive Anthony trip.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 01 Oct 2010 15:37

GE Aviation Reaffirms Commitment to F414 Engines; Rejects Eurojet Claims as Pointless

2010-09-30 Yesterday, DRDO announced that the Price Negotiating Committee had chosen GE Aviation's F414 engines to power the HAL Tejas Mark II fighters. Based on DRDO's statements to the press, one could infer that GE Aviation would deliver 20 engines starting in 2014 and would partner with Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) to produce more engines.

This announcement came as a surprise to many as the Eurojet EJ-200 was the favorite for this deal.

Shortly after the DRDO announcement, Eurojet made this comment:
WE RESPECT THE DECISION TAKEN BY THE PRICE NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE. HOWEVER, WE REGRET THAT THE COMMITTEE HAS DECIDED AGAINST THE MOST CAPABLE & LATEST GENERATION ENGINE ON OFFER FOR THE LCA-TEJAS. TOGETHER WITH OUR CONSORTIUM PARTNER COMPANIES AND THEIR RESPECTIVE GOVERNMENTS WE WILL CAREFULLY STUDY THE DECISION AND ITS IMPLICATIONS. WE EXPECT FURTHER DETAILS FROM INDIAN AUTHORITIES AND MORE INFORMATION ABOUT THE PROCESS LEADING TO THE ANNOUNCED SELECTION.

The underlined portion of this statement directly implied that the EJ-200 engines were superior to the GE F414s.

GE Aviation's response to these unusually strong statements by their European competitors:
...AS FOR THE EUROJET CLAIM OF HAVING A BETTER ENGINE, IT IS A POINTLESS ARGUMENT OF WORDS. THE F414 IS VERY SUCCESSFULLY POWERING THE F/A-18 SUPER HORNETS AND LIKE ITS PREDECESSOR, THE F404 ENGINE, THE F414 WILL BE A PROMINENT FIGHTER JET ENGINE IN ITS THRUST CLASS FOR MANY DECADES TO COME. IN ADDITION, THE F414 WILL CONTINUE TO RECEIVE THE LATEST TECHNOLOGY INFUSIONS DEVELOPED BY GE AVIATION, WHICH SPENDS $1 BILLION (U.S.) IN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT EACH YEAR...

GE Aviation refused to comment on the deal itself and termed the situation "premature" as the specifics of this deal are still to be worked out. "GE Aviation is very hopeful that the decision will be to power the HAL Tejas with the F414." GE Aviation told India Defence (india-defence.com).

The choice of engines to power the HAL Tejas is likely to have a bearing on the USD $10 billion Indian Air Force Multi-role Combat Aircraft (MRCA) deal. GE F414's for the HAL Tejas will greatly boost the chances of the fighter jets already powered by GE F414 i.e. Boeing F/A-18 and SAAB Gripen being picked for the Air Force MRCA deal.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4583

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 01 Oct 2010 17:54

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/10/lc ... orary.html

LCA Far Ahead Of JF-17 In Contemporary Technology": IAF Western Commander

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Oct 2010 19:19

GE official press release...
GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program

India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has selected 99 F414 GE fighter jet engines to power the Mk II version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force. John Flannery, President & CEO, GE India said, "The LCA selection is a big step forward for GE and demonstrates our strong commitment to India. GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of F414-GE-INS6 engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology arrangement."

The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest-thrust F414 model and includes state-of-the-art technology to meet India's demanding Air Force and Naval requirements. Technical advances include a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC) and added single-engine safety features. "We are extremely pleased with the ADA's decision and are confident India's technical expertise will help enhance the F414-powered LCA's mission superiority well into the 21st century," said Tony Mathis, general manager of Lynn Military Systems programs at GE Aviation.

This selection follows earlier orders of 24 F404 GE engines in 2007, plus an initial 2004 purchase of 17 F404 engines to power a limited series of operational production aircraft and naval prototypes. With more than one million flight hours, the F414 engine continues to exceed United States Navy goals for reliability and time on wing. To date, more than 1,000 F414 engines have been delivered, supporting more than 415 aircraft in the fleet.

saurav.jha · Post by **saurav.jha** » 01 Oct 2010 20:15

Which model is this F414-GE-INS6..? Is it 414-400..?Or, a new variant being made just for us (which i doubt )..?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 01 Oct 2010 20:30

Juggi G wrote:Eurojet Reacts To Defeat, Says Decision Means Tejas Won't Get Best Engine
Livefist
[[email protected] IST]

The GE F414 turbofan is understood to have been found more price competitive when several other costs were Added to the fixed commercial proposals put forward by GE and Eurojet.

The other costs included custom modification of the engine, ground and flight-testing and certification of the modified engine and, crucially, technology transfer elements such as jigs, assemblies etc.

The deal, worth approximately $800-million, is for 99 engines, with options for 100 more.

GE hasn't reacted to the news just yet, but are likely to make a statement shortly. No official word from Boeing or Gripen, though folks at the Indian offices of both firms are appropriately delighted.

Interesting little aside:

"The European Aeronautic Defense and Space Company (EADS) has signed an exclusive teaming agreement with GE for the Definition Phase of its Mako family of advanced trainer and light combat aircraft.

EADS selected a derivative of GE's F414-GE-400 fighter engine, which powers the U.S. Navy's F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, for the Definition Phase of the Mako single-engine aircraft family. EADS envisions the Mako family encompassing an advanced trainer, lead-in fighter trainer, and light combat aircraft, all targeted for international sales. "

http://www.geae.com/engines/military/f4 ... ining.html

I guess the Mako didn't get the best engine then either

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 01 Oct 2010 20:46

DRDO Chooses GE Engines for Tejas
LiveMint

The price negotiation committee is chaired by Prahlada, chief controller of DRDO, and includes officials from the defence ministry, the air force and the navy. Prahlada goes by one name.

“Although GE Aviation is the lowest bidder, price negotiations are still not complete, so it would not be possible to comment on the bid amount at this stage,” DRDO spokesperson Ravi Gupta said.

Analysts said DRDO would ask GE Aviation to Lower its Price.

“If the Reported Price of $666 million as quoted by Eurojet is Correct, the Government will Push GE Aviation to bring the Price Down to that Level,” a defence analyst said on condition of anonymity.

The Business Standard earlier in September said Eurojet was the lower bidder at $666 million for 99 engines, against GE Aviation’s bid of $822 million.
DRDO officials declined to comment on the issue or disclose GE’s bid amount.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Oct 2010 20:54

INS6 could be a modified G model which powers the gripen-NG with suitable small changes to suit our need. for instance thrust could be improved as there is 5 yr gap between GripenNG and Tejasmk2.

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Oct 2010 21:04

F414-GE-INS6 which model is this ..? and also they were saying it have highest thrust , so how much thrust we can expect..... 100-105-110 .....

nash · Post by **nash** » 01 Oct 2010 21:11

Singha wrote:INS6 could be a modified G model which powers the gripen-NG with suitable small changes to suit our need. for instance thrust could be improved as there is 5 yr gap between GripenNG and Tejasmk2.

If it is a modified G model then probably it mada our tejas to supecruise in A2A becoz according to wiki :

The engine will produce 20% more thrust at 98 kN (22,000 lbf), enabling a supercruise speed of Mach 1.1 with air-to-air missiles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JAS_39_Gri ... velopments

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 01 Oct 2010 21:16

Why every one is determine to make this whole engine deal for Tejas MK-2 a Alloo chat , each website is throwing in their own massala , morning no deal yet for Ge ,by evening deal is a done deal , it seems every one just wants to sensationalize the issue and get some hits to their sites ,when every one knew if not Ej it will be Ge , only two were running in the race .

I hope MMRCA winner results are not like this

XY Site : IT F-18 in morning

YY Site : IAF OBJECTS IN AFTERNOON

YX Site : NO ITS EF IN EVENING

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 01 Oct 2010 21:55

Dmurphy wrote:
indranilroy wrote: But Singhaji wasn't it supposed to have an indigenous AESA radar, work on which had already commenced etc. etc.?
Recall some DDM articles mentioned that the Elta-2052 will be mounted on the Tejas in the interim till our indigenous MMR spawned. It was ofcourse Elta-2032.

I also recall EADS pandering the GOI to let it co-develop the MMR. Here's the link. Really don't know if the 2052 claims hold any substance. Only Shiv Aroor once mentioned something about it on his blog once.

I remember reading Mr Varadarajan's statement saying that LRDE was working on a AESA for Tejas MKII which would be ready by 2012 -2013.
From LCA-TEJAS.org

Varadarajan, (Director - LRDE) has said that LRDE has initiated development of active electronically scanning array radar for airborne applications. And that these radars will be integrated with Tejas light combat aircraft-Mark II by 2012-13.

Also here in Focus DRDO.

According to B.V. Ramesh, project director of LRDE's LSTAR programme, an LRDE-developed X-band AESA radar could be fitted on the Tejas by 2014. Two modules of the AESA radar have alreqady been launched.

I read few more reports which were copy paste or sometimes rearrangement of the Focus DRDO article.

sarkar · Post by **sarkar** » 02 Oct 2010 01:32

kmc_chacko wrote: It is now left of GE to either get permission from US Govt for full ToT otherwise withdraw from the competition. If GE withdraws that means end of F-18, F-16 & Gripen from MRCA Competition. That will make way clear for EF.

US would not want to happen this because India has a big market for their products, in other words US needs India than India need US for revival of their economy so best technology will be in our hands, just like Israels have.

Yeah, i believe this is a good move to test Amrika. Now to save their future defence deals with IN, they have to give permission for complete ToT.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 02 Oct 2010 04:09

I would keep my eyes on those three agreements between the Us and India. They will have a lot more impact on what happens than these "deals". Last I heard they have become multidimensional.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Oct 2010 08:28

while a thrust of 24,000lb (10% over gripenNG) would sound sexy, there are many other things like fuel consumption, durability, how fast and safely it can throttle up and down from those peak levels and the acceleration of the airframe itself. while its claimed that Mach1.8 is enough, how fast one can reach from 800kmph to mach1.6 helps in A2A - the F18 is said to accelerately slowly vs F16/F15....

vic · Post by **vic** » 02 Oct 2010 09:14

I think that this GE engine may be in 105kn category

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 03 Oct 2010 13:02

Just a thought and no basis for it. Could it be that F-414 is again a intermediate engine for Tejas Mark-2 just like 404 was. If MRCA goes to France then we get a Kavery Hybrid with France help up and running which can be used on MRCA and also on Tejas Mark-2 as and when new engines are required after the first 99 in this deal.