MRCA News and Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Carl_T
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2533
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 02:37
Location: anandasya sagare

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Carl_T » 02 Oct 2010 03:07

Why does the LCA engine affect the MRCA? The MRCA is a big order in itself, so I think we would feel the effects of economies of scale even if we selected different engines right?

Igorr
BRFite
Posts: 598
Joined: 01 Feb 2005 18:13
Contact:

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Igorr » 02 Oct 2010 03:13

Shankar wrote:with ge engines for LCA all the more chance MRCA not going US way that would be putting too many new eggs on an unreliable sanction prone basket- Gripen /mig 35 with Rafale as dark horse ?
Hope they will refuse ToT and another engine will be chosen at the end instead of falling second time to the same trap.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4907
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 02 Oct 2010 04:15

Lalmohan wrote:assuming that that the 404 and 414 are built around the same core, the dimensions should be similar...
undoubtedly the flight tests would have to be repeated, as they would for the EJ... so what's that about?!


They are not built around the same core. Even the F-414 EPE is not built around the same core as the F-414..

Singha
BRF Oldie
Posts: 66601
Joined: 13 Aug 2004 19:42
Location: the grasshopper lies heavy

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 02 Oct 2010 08:13

as per geae website the dimensions are noted same though weight is more. neither would EJ200 create any issue since its allegedly slimmer and longer. some form of CG rebalancing would be needed for both I think.

geeth
BRFite
Posts: 1195
Joined: 22 Aug 1999 11:31
Location: India

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby geeth » 02 Oct 2010 09:17

>>>Everyone here has forgotten that LCA is currently flying with GE engines (granted with lower thrust). So where is the problem if MK2 also uses GE engines?

There is no problem as long as everything is done according to our requirements. Further, idea of getting new engine is not exactly as that of the current set og GE engines. They were bought outright. Do you want India to continue this trend and buy the engines outright.

What could happen is, If India's choice is GE, they will negotiate for a couple of year, nothing will come out of it and finally scrap the negotiations. Then go to EADS - obviously, the price would have shot up 2-3 times by then, and they won't agree to transfer the necessary tech. It is like falling between two stools.

There is no escape..we are like that onlee. I wish and hope things turn out to be different this time at least.

Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2197
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 02 Oct 2010 10:14

geeth wrote:What could happen is, If India's choice is GE, they will negotiate for a couple of year, nothing will come out of it and finally scrap the negotiations. Then go to EADS - obviously, the price would have shot up 2-3 times by then, and they won't agree to transfer the necessary tech. It is like falling between two stools.

Geeth - the SCB tech is not available. What other tech do we need? Will EADS give us SCB tech? No. SCB will have to be an Indian effort - develop or .....

Buy the engines. Engage the US.

trushant
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 29
Joined: 06 Jan 2009 18:02

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby trushant » 02 Oct 2010 11:03

[quote="Kartik]
conspiracy theories aside, this means that whoever meets the IAF's requirements and is L1 has the brightest chances of winning. Politics will play a bigger role in that deal than in the engine selection deal, but the winner has to be L1. Typhoons chances are fading fast now with absolutely no chance of it being L1. Gripen NG, F-16 IN, Super Hornet and MiG-35 are the strongest contenders it would appear unless there is a downselect by the MoD.

Its interesting to see BRF becoming a conspiracy theory ridden forum, quite like the Deaf and Dumb forum from across the border.[/quote]

from whatever little knowledge i have about procurement..the buyer, more often than not, has a preferred supplier ... preference is either due to -
1. Suppliers A and B both meet the specs but A has overall better product to offer
2. Past experience of working with A hence comfort and understanding of each other's needs
3. Pure personal equation of the buyer with A ..whatver you may call it
4. Lastly ..if the buyer sees supplier A as the strategic partner for future endeavors ..not just one night stand!

So except in cases where its an online reverse auction (where the final L1 is decided purely by market forces), the buyer would collect the commercial offers from all technically qualified suppliers, negotiate with all or few of them, see whos L1 and accordingly give a target price (which is lower than what the L1 has quoted) to his preferred supplier... make him match it and close the deal

If Ajai Shukla's report of 20th Sep is to be believed... EJ200 was the original L1 (cool 20% difference going by the figures)...so now the preferred supplier knows the target price...comes in with a counter offer ...becomes L1 and Shazam!! GE414 for Mk2. Whatever were the reasons for GE becoming the preferred supplier out of those mentioned above is anybody's guess...but i definitely see something fishy in the way the exact bid values were leaked before the decision

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 02 Oct 2010 12:50

but do u really believe Typhoon cheaper than Mig 35 -

Shankar
BRFite
Posts: 1905
Joined: 28 Aug 2002 11:31
Location: wai -maharastra

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Shankar » 02 Oct 2010 12:55

F/A-18 'Super Hornet' and F-16 'Falcon', Gripen, Rafale, MiG-35 and Eurofighter Typhoon are in the race for the contract.

Asked if merit alone would count in selection of aircraft or geo-strategic interests would also be factored in, the IAF Chief said: "As far as I am concerned, my decision will be on technical evaluation".

He also said India would soon order another 42 Sukhois.
http://www.zeenews.com/news641444.html

WELL WELL another 42 sukhois is it a new order or the one decided some time back -looks like before any MRCA is inducted IAF may become a all sukhoi fleet

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 02 Oct 2010 13:23


vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vic » 02 Oct 2010 18:16

It seems that there are almost One additional year of "comples" negotiations ahead, followed by time to be given to GE to obtain US Govt approval. So we will know the final result only at the end of 2011. This also shows that LCA Mark-2 is heavily delayed and may fly only in 2015-16

Pratik_S
BRFite
Posts: 325
Joined: 11 Feb 2010 21:19
Location: In the Lion's Den
Contact:

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 02 Oct 2010 19:05

@vic
din't GE already acquire approval from US govt ? American companies don't participate in tenders if they don't get approval, right ?

Suresh S
BRFite
Posts: 730
Joined: 25 Dec 2008 22:19

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Suresh S » 02 Oct 2010 19:07

trushant wrote:. Suppliers A and B both meet the specs but A has overall better product to offer
2. Past experience of working with A hence comfort and understanding of each other's needs
3. Pure personal equation of the buyer with A ..whatver you may call it
4. Lastly ..if the buyer sees supplier A as the strategic partner for future endeavors ..not just one night stand!


I like your points. Now GE has a long standing relationship with India and it is a wonderful company no question about that. My only problem is that it resides in uncle sam,s country.and our experience with their govt in the last 50 yrs has not been a good one.

That is not to say that we should live in the past but one should not forget history lest you are forced to repeat it.
My personal bias is i am a russkie lover. I have worked with these people and there is lot of love for india and indians among the common people and remember the leaders after all come from among these common people and are affected by their attitudes. something to think about

SGupta
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 38
Joined: 26 Feb 2007 16:46

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SGupta » 02 Oct 2010 20:04

Looks like the win is posted on the Wall Street Journal

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/ge-win ... 2010-10-01 - Based the business-standard.com report

Its a special derivative of the 414 thats being proposed for India.

F414-GE-INS6
India’s Aeronautical Development Agency selected the F414-GE-INS6 engine to power the Mk II version of the HAL Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) for the Indian Air Force. The F414-GE-INS6 is the highest thrust F414 variant, and it includes a Full Authority Digital Electronic Control (FADEC). - From Wikipedia

Interesting, one can only speculate whats going to happen.

Willy
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 18 Jan 2005 01:58

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Oct 2010 22:52


I like your points. Now GE has a long standing relationship with India and it is a wonderful company no question about that. My only problem is that it resides in uncle sam,s country.and our experience with their govt in the last 50 yrs has not been a good one.

That is not to say that we should live in the past but one should not forget history lest you are forced to repeat it.
My personal bias is i am a russkie lover. I have worked with these people and there is lot of love for india and indians among the common people and remember the leaders after all come from among these common people and are affected by their attitudes. something to think about



Remember how the engines for the Shivalik class were delayed??????????????????

SaiK
BRF Oldie
Posts: 36402
Joined: 29 Oct 2003 12:31
Location: NowHere

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Oct 2010 23:36

If the GE order for F414 has meaning to MRCA then it has to be other technologies that may be transferred especially AESA, common weapons integrations platform and store management, along with many aspects where DRDO is strong considering LCA's advancement areas.

Engine is sure one, but not alone. Hence if GE has been chosen then care must be given to heavy change in attitude towards India by Unkill. May be the CIA chief has already given the nod to our counter-part that they are willing to share the bug with few bugs, that is mutually acceptable for use.

This will forces us join as America's allies and perhaps join NATO forces in operations under American command. Our forces will be forced to cooperate in Afpak areas and other areas of operation, and the super bug can be extremely effective from India based operations.

They might even quote lesser than anyone can think off .. just think about the cost of Afpak operations alone. They can even give the SH free, with only ToT costs and manufacturing cost alone being $10b. It still saves for the khans.

They have already in a pysched state of losing world power.. and it is important for them to get India on their side. The americans will give away the tech secrets to Indians is a guarantee now.

OMG.. pakees must run now for cover.. the IAF marked super bugs are coming!

Willy
BRFite
Posts: 283
Joined: 18 Jan 2005 01:58

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Willy » 02 Oct 2010 23:55

SaiK wrote:If the GE order for F414 has meaning to MRCA then it has to be other technologies that may be transferred especially AESA, common weapons integrations platform and store management, along with many aspects where DRDO is strong considering LCA's advancement areas.

Engine is sure one, but not alone. Hence if GE has been chosen then care must be given to heavy change in attitude towards India by Unkill. May be the CIA chief has already given the nod to our counter-part that they are willing to share the bug with few bugs, that is mutually acceptable for use.

This will forces us join as America's allies and perhaps join NATO forces in operations under American command. Our forces will be forced to cooperate in Afpak areas and other areas of operation, and the super bug can be extremely effective from India based operations.

They might even quote lesser than anyone can think off .. just think about the cost of Afpak operations alone. They can even give the SH free, with only ToT costs and manufacturing cost alone being $10b. It still saves for the khans.

They have already in a pysched state of losing world power.. and it is important for them to get India on their side. The americans will give away the tech secrets to Indians is a guarantee now.

OMG.. pakees must run now for cover.. the IAF marked super bugs are coming!


Uptill now I was pretty sure that the Bug would be the winner of the MMRCA(not that I wanted to) due to Unkil's muscle. But now with all these developments and deals going to unkil left right and centre my gut feeling says that things have changed and that the F18 is not going to win. All the deals happening are just to placate unkil. Most probs the MMRCA will go to the Rafale. Anyone wants to start a poll on that?

kmc_chacko
BRFite
Posts: 326
Joined: 07 Feb 2007 10:10
Location: Shivamogga, Karnataka

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmc_chacko » 03 Oct 2010 00:59

It is my assumption that

Since
1. Russia got Viramaditya, PAKFA, MTA, Akula & upgradation of Mig-29s, An-32s, Kilos, Su-30 Mki and additional 42 Su-30 Mki, 59 Mi-17 Helicopters and T-90S Tanks

2. USA got P-8I, C-17 Globemaster , C-130J, GE-414 engines for Tejas,

3. France got Scorpions’ and possibility of swapping of Mirages for Rafael (possibility which I will not reject since UAE has withdrawn and no other export option is left out with France) i.e., purchasing back 50+ and negotiate for 100 Rafael’s.

Sarkozy eyes defence deals in Dec India visit
http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/curren ... 87533.html


The above purchasing patterns are showing a small chance of GOI may opting for buying EF through MRCA programme. It is also mentioned that MRCA will be a political & a strategical decision

India, Germany to speed up efforts for UNSC membership
http://sify.com/news/india-germany-to-s ... gahjd.html

Because all the above deals are valued more than $10 billons, though USA may be unsatisfied but still other purchases like option of going for F-35s, additional P-8Is, C-130J, Phalcon Radar from Israel, David's Sling, Iron Dome and negotiations are going for Attack Helicopters, other modern equipments may make up the shortfall

krish
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 05:59

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krish » 03 Oct 2010 06:48



Or lets say it is to test how committed US is in doing business with india and having india as their strategic partner.............. since F414 needs a lot of tech transfer which should be permitted by the senate it will certainly test their commitment and.......... there is a clause in the order giving them 2-3month time for GE to get the US governments permission if they do so it is good for them else they will loose both engine and MMRCA

krish
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 18 Aug 2008 05:59

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krish » 03 Oct 2010 06:51

smpratik wrote:@vic
din't GE already acquire approval from US govt ? American companies don't participate in tenders if they don't get approval, right ?



Its not approved by the senate / congress only after their approval it is going to be a done deal

shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shukla » 03 Oct 2010 07:54

krish wrote:Or lets say it is to test how committed US is in doing business with india and having india as their strategic partner.............. since F414 needs a lot of tech transfer which should be permitted by the senate it will certainly test their commitment and.......... there is a clause in the order giving them 2-3month time for GE to get the US governments permission if they do so it is good for them else they will loose both engine and MMRCA


FYI there, in fact, is such a clause..

Defence ministry indicate that negotiations with GE will continue at least until mid-2011. Thereafter, the US company would be given 121 days (plus an allowable extension of two months) to obtain permission from the US government to transfer technology to build the engine in India.


http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ca/409820/

Muppalla
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7084
Joined: 12 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Muppalla » 03 Oct 2010 08:07

Another 100 page thread with no real decision.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests