Managing Chinese Threat

[Pulikeshi]

Is India strong enough to do what you say? etc.

DavidD,

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” – Mahatma Gandhi

Very different tone than “power flows from the barrel of a gun”
but nevertheless seems like its between the laugh and fight phase.
Of course the key question for anyone considering the growth of India and China
in Asia is what sort of Asia is in the interest of these countries even if it takes 50 years
to get there and one or other combatants come to that end goal kicking and screaming.

Is India strong enough? - Not sure, but if it is not, it has many friends.
The Chinese do not think India has good cards – well that they do at their own risk.
India is not a power that is bent on revenge or necessarily activist in its environment.
However, each and every action of China is waking up the ‘Kumbhakaran’.
Whether it be 62, passing nukes to Pakistan, etc.

Why is China is doing these things? China is a maximal land state and has
rarely been able to retain such a greater control over its boundaries historically.
Ironically, China is not also a power that understands the economics of holding such a large
land base. There may be cheaper alternatives, but are unpalatable politically. Given this,
there is inherent fear – of her citizens, of going the way of the USSR, of the West crippling
her economically, of neighbors usurping her exalted status in Asia, etc.
Fear provides purpose and pragmatism and perhaps this suits the Chinese temperament.

India on the other hand seems like a power without a purpose. This means more sleeping!
Much like Kumbhakarna, there is much sleeping, but once in every 6 months there is great
devouring and replenishment. India needs friends like China if only for the simple fact -
it allows a mirror to be held to India's face every time it wakes up!
India ought to thank China for doing it a favor.

[brihaspati]

How low can you sink to call your own people, country, nation a "dog" - comparable to dogs that are trained to hunt "pigs" and not even the friendly companions we mostly know them to be? It is insulting the people by comparing them with trained animal predators of pigs and it is insulting to the dog by comparing it to the Communist party of China or the PLA!

Get a hold! I have grown up with dogs, among other animals and hunted with them - sometimes in packs as large as 16 to 20. Dogs are managed by both love and intelligence. They have quite a few empathic connections with humans as confirmed by latest studies. Otherwise that dog you "own" who sits quietly on the porch would one day tear your throat apart too - and quite a few throat ripping of owners themselves have happened - especially those that trained them to rip others' throats.

There is a fundamental aspect to understand. There are some of us who clearly distinguish between people and those who happen to be their leaders. Some of us distinguish between the CPC+PLA and the common Chinese. We have different treatment in mind for these two separate groups. CPC+PLA is not just a threat to India but also a threat to its own people and the world at large. If leadership and people are not separated for analysis, we do end up with the result that all Americans are replicas of Kissinger, all British are copies of Churchill, and all Russians are mirror images of Stalin.

Comparing Mao or other leadership of China, or the current natural resource looting regional party satraps - be they from the shanghai clique or otherwise, with "dogs" who hunt "pigs" is actually insulting to the dogs - who show much greater empathy with humanity in general. Comparing billions of ordinary peasant or working Chinese with dogs does not show respect to your ancestors.

We will manage the CPC+PLA threat. How or in what way is a matter of actual future implementation. The best any CPC-loyal Chinese may get here is some psy-ops without any inkling of what really is planned or likely to be undertaken. It may well be so that the CPC-PLA leadership will be forced to fear every shadow - even of their own. That is the game.

[TonyMontana]

How low can you sink to call your own people, country, nation a "dog" - comparable to dogs that are trained to hunt "pigs" and not even the friendly companions we mostly know them to be? It is insulting the people by comparing them with trained animal predators of pigs and it is insulting to the dog by comparing it to the Communist party of China or the PLA!

Missing the point huh?

Get a hold! I have grown up with dogs, among other animals and hunted with them - sometimes in packs as large as 16 to 20. Dogs are managed by both love and intelligence. They have quite a few empathic connections with humans as confirmed by latest studies. Otherwise that dog you "own" who sits quietly on the porch would one day tear your throat apart too - and quite a few throat ripping of owners themselves have happened - especially those that trained them to rip others' throats.

Don't worry about me and pack. We're good.

There is a fundamental aspect to understand. There are some of us who clearly distinguish between people and those who happen to be their leaders. Some of us distinguish between the CPC+PLA and the common Chinese. We have different treatment in mind for these two separate groups. CPC+PLA is not just a threat to India but also a threat to its own people and the world at large. If leadership and people are not separated for analysis, we do end up with the result that all Americans are replicas of Kissinger, all British are copies of Churchill, and all Russians are mirror images of Stalin.

The "Chinese people" you refer to couldn't care less about India. Since we're on BRF I would assumed that you get that the "Dog" I was refering to as the CCP. "Our B@astards" as I put it.

Comparing Mao or other leadership of China, or the current natural resource looting regional party satraps - be they from the shanghai clique or otherwise, with "dogs" who hunt "pigs" is actually insulting to the dogs - who show much greater empathy with humanity in general. Comparing billions of ordinary peasant or working Chinese with dogs does not show respect to your ancestors.

Strawman. Not what I meant. Next.

We will manage the CPC+PLA threat. How or in what way is a matter of actual future implementation. The best any CPC-loyal Chinese may get here is some psy-ops without any inkling of what really is planned or likely to be undertaken. It may well be so that the CPC-PLA leadership will be forced to fear every shadow - even of their own. That is the game.

Best of luck. I hope that's the case for India. Sure, that's how you feel hanging out on BRF. But lets just hope Joe India feels the same. Do you see it trending that way?

[sanjaykumar]

Odd that China does not care about India-so is it Maoism that compels them to arm (with third world junk) a rabid Pakistan? Or were the atomic technologies proferred an insignificant Pakistan because China finds India as insignificant.


This is drone-central come in TM, they are getting wise to us, please talk some sense. Try internally consistent propaganda.We cannot see our faces clearly. repeat. regroup...

[brihaspati]

Thanks for wishing luck. Let us say "Amen/Ameen" to your hope too. Human existences are not compartmentalized you know - I could be hanging out at other places too than only BRF! Again, who is "Joe India"?!! That term is used in the Anglo-Saxon-Anglosphere and historically slightly denigratory, and we don't use such terms for our countrymen. At most, the term in north is "aam aadmi" which linguistically is simply "the masses/non-aristocrats".

Yes I do see it trending that way.

[TonyMontana]

Odd that China does not care about India-so is it Maoism that compels them to arm (with third world junk) a rabid Pakistan? Or were the atomic technologies proferred an insignificant Pakistan because China finds India as insignificant.

[facepalm.jpeg]

Your average Chinese don't care about India. The PLA is making noises because they are insecure. The business interests are the 6 foot high fence. Please understand what I'm saying before replying.

This is drone-central come in TM, they are getting wise to us, please talk some sense. Try internally consistent propaganda.We cannot see our faces clearly. repeat. regroup...

So this is me pre-empting the drone attack comments. It make you "uncool" if someone already pre-empted your zingers. So hopfully it wouldn't get derailed too much.

Zinger burger? You want fries with that??

[Varoon Shekhar]

Just the other day, Montana admitted that China was indeed competing with India, in IT, BPO, animation, English, IIT's, statistics, alternative energy, automotive industry, moon mission, Antarctica exploration, diamond polishing and granite et al. In all these activities, it was India that prompted China to enter, not the big boys US, Japan, Russia and Germany. Pipsqueak, insignificant, we-could-not-care-less-about-it India.

[brihaspati]

Odd that China does not care about India-so is it Maoism that compels them to arm (with third world junk) a rabid Pakistan? Or were the atomic technologies proferred an insignificant Pakistan because China finds India as insignificant.


This is drone-central come in TM, they are getting wise to us, please talk some sense. Try internally consistent propaganda.We cannot see our faces clearly. repeat. regroup...

No it is just probing! but probing is risky - there is possibility of reverse infection! "Maoism" was defined by Mao himself as "Sinification of Marxism" ("Marxism with Chinese characteristics") - which in itself shows where the confusion itself started. It was mobilizing and utilizing popular discontent in a political vacuum towards gaining personal power. The same motivation runs even now - it is not ideology. Ideology is just the tool for continuity and hoodwinking.

It is good that they have hooked up with the Islamists in Paki occupied western India. That one is going to cost them dearly. It is also good the more they invest in infrastructure there or in Tibet. Those in occupied Paki lands will come in handy for us in the future - at least those that survive Himalayan seismicity.

[Varoon Shekhar]

"The PLA is making noises because they are insecure. "

That's an insecure, immature, unworthy neighbour to have, that has an insecure military that says and does something other than the people or government. Can you imagine an Indian saying, "The Indian military feels insecure, so it may stage a coup, or conduct operations without giving a whit about what anyone says. It's totally a law unto itself". The great thing about the Indian military is that it *doesn't want* to be a law or interest unto itself.

[brihaspati]

There is little or no separation between the Party and the Army. Officially they have different Control commissions but actually populated by the same people. Without direct representation, there does not have to be any accountability or bowing down to popular pressure. People go on with their lives - and that is cited by some as blind devotion for the "heavenly mandate". Revolutions are not initiated by so-called romantic mass-movements but by determined minorities - typically disgruntled members of the elite or its associated class. This is also why revolutions mostly take place when the country is on an upward prosperity arc - as there is more room for dissatisfaction among the elite for power. [In contrast "reactions" take place when on the downward arc]

So since we already have had the oracle saying that the country is now on the upward swing of prosperity - it should be ripe for a change!

[TonyMontana]

Just the other day, Montana admitted that China was indeed competing with India, in IT, BPO, animation, English, IIT's, statistics, alternative energy, automotive industry, moon mission, Antarctica exploration, diamond polishing and granite et al. In all these activities, it was India that prompted China to enter, not the big boys US, Japan, Russia and Germany. Pipsqueak, insignificant, we-could-not-care-less-about-it India.

Do you take pride in the fact that Chinese copy off Indian? What's the point of a first-mover-advantage if you don't utilise it? When we Chinese see a good idea, we'll take it.
The only thing that matters is who is doing it better. It don't mean jack if the Indian kid started engineering a year early, if the Chinese kid are beating him in the exams.

[TonyMontana]

So since we already have had the oracle saying that the country is now on the upward swing of prosperity - it should be ripe for a change!

Or, instead of killing the gold laying goose, the different faction will fight to get a bigger part of the pot. On a downward swing, that's when people start thinking about cooking the goose, since it's not laying any gold.

The Oracle Speakth.

[shiv]

4) A new Dynasty. Things get settled. How things work are finally sorted. A period of Unity has dawn. This unity is enforced without reservations. Treason is punishable by death. Securing of borders and domination of the "barbarians" begins.


We are now in 4. If you read the historical record of Koreans and Japanese from periods where China is in phase 4, you will see many similarities. Arrogant, pushy, Bullying. Then fast forward to Phase 5, what did they write about? A nation of ritual, of courtesy, of art.

Going back to "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms". Strategist Zhu has to be asked three times to work for one of the Kingdoms because he realised that at that time, China is in phase 1. He understands that the natual forces are pushing China into disunity and smart as he is, he can't fight these natural forces. And he was prove right in the end.

So where did that leave us? In my opinion, China is now in Phase 4. The natural forces pushing for a unified China is strongest in a hundred years. Yes there are problems, but these are problems that Historical China has managed many many times before.

I'm hoping for phase 5 to roll around. Where China will be "cool" again. You do realise that we were the "cool kids" for quite a few times in East Asia right?

Thoughts?

These are fine and philosophical thoughts for a Chinese to have. But if you look at it from a slightly different angle I could paint you as being a CPC robot automaton with a handler in the manner that you have jokingly referred to yourself.

If you go back to Indian history - you have had kings and nobles who have been wealthy and powerful beyond measure, but the vast mass were not that way. So what did the vast mass get? They got philosophy. Philosophy comes in various guises and promises a better future, or makes some promises and assertions that help one cope with a lousy today. When the "Joe Indian" found that he did not have the wealth and power of his leader, he was "handled and indoctrinated" to be satisfied with his lot because that would lead to a better tomorrow. And what better way of "proving" that tomorrow will come than saying "See - the same thing happened yesterday. yesterday thse people suffered as you are doing now. But see them today? They are winners"

In Pakistan and in Islamic societies, exactly the same thing happens. You have a wealthy elite oligarchy and a mass of "Joe Abduls" And when Joe Abdul is unhappy he is reassured that Allah has all sorts of goodies in store for him in future provided he puts up with rubbish today. And guess what? It has all happened before. It happened at the time of the Prophet when everyone was happy.

Look at North Korea. North Korea is to China what vanilla essence is to vanilla ice cream. That small elite of small men in NoKo have their people in a vise like grip - being fed the same fairy tale you have posted above.

The point I am trying to make is that a whole lot of human beings can be deluded and brainwashed to think that their chaos and suffering today are necessary steps for a golden future. This is actually a fine way for a wealthy and powerful elite who control power and resources to exploit people. Control of information, power and wealth in the hands of a small elite are common occurrences all over the world, and those elites typically tell the same tall stories to their people as you are telling us on here and those people are asked to look forward to a golden future as you have done on here. You come across as a largely rational person. You know damn well that you cannot predict the future with accuracy. But yet, you have "faith" that the fairy tale you have posted will come to pass because that is what you have been taught to believe in. Are you or are you not now an autonomous robot whose handler successfully finished with you long ago?

The biggest difference between the India of the Sultans and Rajas and India today are that people are no longer required to believe such fairy tales. Communism started the same way. Communism started with the premise that it is not necessary to have a wealthy eilte and a poor proletariat. But in Korea only the elite live well. The people are living a fairy tale. China did much better, but money is like water - you cannot guarantee that it will flow and spread equally over a large area. You get areas of excess and areas of deficiency. How leaders manage that excess and deficiency is crucial. The North Koreans pretend that all is well. Indians on the other hand trumpet and highlight the inequalities, maldistribution and filth. China falls in between. The Chinese elite are putting up a pretence that all is well everywhere. They do no allow enough information to flow within China itself, leave alone to the outside as to who is doing what, who is happy, who is unhappy, who is corrupt, who is getting kicked for being honest.

For those of us outside China - we know that this is a problem. We know that any bit of information that comes from China could be the truth or a bluff. This ambiguity may be useful for Chinese leaders to play geopolitical games, but it will lead to conflict in due course. Of course China has built up huge numbers of nuclear weapons and delivery systems to scare the crap out of potential adversaries. But sooner or later someone will get desperate enough to start using nukes on China. For example the CPC can probe and test India on the premise of weakness. It can happen once, twice, thrice. but beyond that they are pushing their luck.

You say the CPC know what they are doing. I am less sure about that. They have internal battles that are being fought that are nor apparent to outsiders like democratic politics. Outsiders think about these variables. The Chinese people have been indoctrinated not to think or talk about all that. Politics outside of the party is not encouraged. That is how we get mixed signals of internal dynamics in China after an incident like the ercent China-Japan spat.

[TonyMontana]

These are fine and philosophical thoughts for a Chinese to have. But if you look at it from a slightly different angle I could paint you as being a CPC robot automaton with a handler in the manner that you have jokingly referred to yourself.

I'm not a CPC anything. I'm just looking out for me and mine.

The point I am trying to make is that a whole lot of human beings can be deluded and brainwashed to think that their chaos and suffering today are necessary steps for a golden future. This is actually a fine way for a wealthy and powerful elite who control power and resources to exploit people. Control of information, power and wealth in the hands of a small elite are common occurrences all over the world, and those elites typically tell the same tall stories to their people as you are telling us on here and those people are asked to look forward to a golden future as you have done on here. You come across as a largely rational person. You know damn well that you cannot predict the future with accuracy. But yet, you have "faith" that the fairy tale you have posted will come to pass because that is what you have been taught to believe in. Are you or are you not now an autonomous robot whose handler successfully finished with you long ago?

Read the bold part again. From my side of the mountain it looks like you're a describing India. We are chaotic onlee, but we are free. So we might be behind China now but we will surely catch up in a few year because we have a good foundation. The riots and protests are "pressure relieving", good for India. Makes us more stable in the long run onlee.

Not one can predict the future. That is true. Believe it or not my day job involves a lot of data analysis. Predicting future behaviour with past behaviour. Trending. I have seen China behave this way in many incarnations through out history. So unless I'm proven wrong, I have no reason to doubt the trend. Then again. "Live in Hope. Die in dispair" is kinda what humans do.

The biggest difference between the India of the Sultans and Rajas and India today are that people are no longer required to believe such fairy tales. Communism started the same way. Communism started with the premise that it is not necessary to have a wealthy eilte and a poor proletariat. But in Korea only the elite live well. The people are living a fairy tale. China did much better, but money is like water - you cannot guarantee that it will flow and spread equally over a large area. You get areas of excess and areas of deficiency. How leaders manage that excess and deficiency is crucial. The North Koreans pretend that all is well. Indians on the other hand trumpet and highlight the inequalities, maldistribution and filth. China falls in between. The Chinese elite are putting up a pretence that all is well everywhere. They do no allow enough information to flow within China itself, leave alone to the outside as to who is doing what, who is happy, who is unhappy, who is corrupt, who is getting kicked for being honest.

For those of us outside China - we know that this is a problem. We know that any bit of information that comes from China could be the truth or a bluff. This ambiguity may be useful for Chinese leaders to play geopolitical games, but it will lead to conflict in due course. Of course China has built up huge numbers of nuclear weapons and delivery systems to scare the crap out of potential adversaries. But sooner or later someone will get desperate enough to start using nukes on China. For example the CPC can probe and test India on the premise of weakness. It can happen once, twice, thrice. but beyond that they are pushing their luck.

You say the CPC know what they are doing. I am less sure about that. They have internal battles that are being fought that are nor apparent to outsiders like democratic politics. Outsiders think about these variables. The Chinese people have been indoctrinated not to think or talk about all that. Politics outside of the party is not encouraged. That is how we get mixed signals of internal dynamics in China after an incident like the ercent China-Japan spat.

You have to understand it's not just the CCP that want China to be ahead. The Chinese people want China to be ahead. Tony Robins once said, (hahahaha I know I know), if you think it it's a dream, if you plan it and do it, it's real.

China are now planning and doing. Will she achieve her goals? No one can say for sure. But 1.4 billion Chinese are trying pretty hard.

[shiv]

The point I am trying to make is that a whole lot of human beings can be deluded and brainwashed to think that their chaos and suffering today are necessary steps for a golden future.

Read the bold part again. From my side of the mountain it looks like you're a describing India. We are chaotic onlee, but we are free. So we might be behind China now but we will surely catch up in a few year because we have a good foundation. The riots and protests are "pressure relieving", good for India. Makes us more stable in the long run onlee. .

Good one.

But let me ask you. How do you know there is poverty, filth and misery in India? You know because it is out in the open. In the media.

How do you know that all 1.4 billion Chinese are working very hard to make a better China and that there is virtually no poverty, filth or misery in China? You got it. Its there in the media, the media show no poverty, filth or misery in China so it does not exist.

If you say India is filthy and poor I must accept it and think about what Indians can do to make that better.

if I say that China has misery or poverty - you can say 'Where?" And then you can say "OK I am such a reasonable person. I accept that China has some misery. Not much. We, all 1.4 billion of us are working to change everything"

If a government can hide information from outsiders and its own people then it is certainly easier to make the people think that all is well. If Indians had a magical system that hid India's filth and Indian cities introduced a system of stopping migration of undesirable people India could probably do a much better image job. But we are talking China, not India. The image is useful for the government as well.

Giving the impression of unity of purpose and uniform happiness creates a mass of ostensibly happy people. Pakistan was that way for many decades. It is much worse to be honest and show up all your filth. I did not say the following words and I presume you must have surmised them from what you have read elsewhere

So we might be behind China now but we will surely catch up in a few year because we have a good foundation. The riots and protests are "pressure relieving", good for India. Makes us more stable in the long run onlee.

None of this needs to be true. The only "truth" is that nobody in India is deluded about who is happy and who is unhappy. Nobody in India is claiming that all 1.1 billion Indians are all working towards exactly the same goal. 1.1 billion Indians are each individually working towards goals that they feel will make things better for them. This is what democracy means. In the long term democracy can also mean military weakness if the majority of 1.1 billion people feel that spending on the military is a waste. If the majority of 1.1 billion people feel that forcing people to change from a tribal lifestyle to an urban slum is bad, those things will not change. Not soon anyway. No Indian oligarchy can force thoughts and choices on Indians.

Perhaps the CPC see this as a weakness. You certainly seem to think that some "unifying goal" should be created for India. Maybe that suits the Chinese psyche but the only unifying goal for Indians is to let them live as they please, to make their choices. This goal contravenes the generally recognised requirements for a powerful nation-state. And that is why India gives the impression of being weak and always ready to split.

The only way India can be a united and powerful nation state is to follow the twin paths of
1) Allowing Indians to choose as they please
2) Using freedom of information to inform Indians that certain actions (lack of education, development, low military expenditure, communal strife, social inequity) can lead to erosion of goal no 1 above.

From that Indians have to choose to be a powerful nation state. If you look at some Indian intellectuals (especially those who are cursed on BRF) - they are those who demand that India should put certain anti-nationalistic rights above the demand to be a strong nation state.

I think what a lot of non Indians fail to see about India is that by and large changes of kings and kingdoms and government through history had little effect on the drudgery and misery of the people. The greed and wars of the kings and sultans ensured that India missed the industrial revolution and Indians continued to live under newer and newer kings and governments as the world around them moved on. The only thing independence did was to give Indians the ability to choose how they want to live. If some Indians want a powerful military they have to fight for that by convincing others in India as to why that military requires to be powerful. If Indians want to have more and more and more children, all that India allows is appeals and incentives to have fewer children. No coercion. It was "freedom" that India won. That freedom is valued. Threats to that freedom are taken seriously.

And that is why, despite appearing like a weak state, there is fear in India of loss of freedom and of control of India by foreigners. India will do what it takes to ensure that those foreigners do not get back in easily and if they do they will have to be driven out. But Indians will do it their way.

You have to understand it's not just the CCP that want China to be ahead. The Chinese people want China to be ahead. Tony Robins once said, (hahahaha I know I know), if you think it it's a dream, if you plan it and do it, it's real.

China are now planning and doing. Will she achieve her goals? No one can say for sure. But 1.4 billion Chinese are trying pretty hard.

You are asking me to understand what you believe in your mind. If my mind worked like yours I would be you - or perhaps a fellow Chinese who has been indoctrinated to think the way you do. I am allowed to think different thoughts and I have the freedom to choose whether I want to believe your "Uniformity of 1.4 billion people" fairy tale or not. I am unable to think the way you think. I do not believe for one minute that 1.4 billion people can have the same uniform goal. Heck if you give 100 people choices - even those 100 would disagree. Forget 1.4 billion.

You too have freedom like I do. On here at least. You have the freedom to believe the lie that you are telling me. I have the freedom to disagree.

[A_Gupta]

Who is China's Pankaj Mishra?

[A_Gupta]

Hu Yaobang
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 56,00.html

Fareed Zakaria interviewed Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. Mention of Hu Yaobang had vanished from the Chinese media until he was "rehabilitated" by the Premier.

[Arjun]

Tony, your earlier argument was that your oh-so Buddhist sensibilities were offended when India retaliated against China's instigation of rivalries against India...Can we get back on topic and can you summarise again for my benefit why as a committed Buddhist you have an interest in appearing repeatedly on BRF to advise India against retaliating, but apparently never had the guts to raise your voice inside China to reach the CPC that what they have done to initiate rivalry against India is wrong?

[TonyMontana]

...

Shiv, it's always a pleasure to debate with you. Very informative.

I think there is still a little disconnect between our thoughts. Let's bridge that.

I never said that I don't see povery or misery in China. I do. And Chinese does as well. There's plenty of charities that do well in China supporting the poor and down trodden. So Chinese are not as blind or heartless as some like to believe.

You misunderstand my statement that 1.4 billion thinks alike and are all working together. I did not express that very well. My fault. What I like to say is that there is a tendency in East asia for "unity". Look at us east asians. We're not the fastest, strongest, smartest or the most creative. What we get, we got from hard work. There is this general feeling of unity in China right now. We have an identity. We have a goal.

I believe the greatest human rights abuse is economic deprivation.

I don't have to look further then India to see that vote-bank democracy are not the same as Denmark or New Zealand.

What I am is a realist. We can debate the right and wrong of collectivelism and individualism all day. It doesn't make the day to day life better for anyone.

What I'm trumpting is not the CCP model. I'm all for the Historical Chinese Model, where the CCP just happen to adopt. A strong central governing system that prevents instability and want to do well for its people. Like it or not we Chinese are stuck with the CCP. If there is one thing we Chinese do well, is that we endures. We "eat bitterness". If freedom is the price to pay for our childern to grow up without war and has a good future. It's the price that the Chinese is willing to pay, and has been paying since the first dynasty.

[TonyMontana]

Tony, your earlier argument was that your oh-so Buddhist sensibilities were offended when India retaliated against China's instigation of rivalries against India...Can we get back on topic and can you summarise again for my benefit why as a committed Buddhist you have an interest in appearing repeatedly on BRF to advise India against retaliating, but apparently never had the guts to raise your voice inside China to reach the CPC that what they have done to initiate rivalry against India is wrong?

I hunt animals for their meat and skin. I don't make a very good Buddhist. I was thinking from your point of view, and points out that your actions might be "wrong" according to your own believes, which you hold dear. I was corrected later by other posters that, in fact, I was wrong in my judgement on what you believed. I no longer hold that opinion. India can be a hegemony all you want. If it makes you happy.

[naren]

The Empire Strikes Back

"Can you imagine China without an Emperor?" A Japanese friend of mine once said this to me.

China is an Empire. Has been, still is, and there's no trend to change it.

I hope I don't sound arrogant. This is just a cold hard analysis on my part. "China" as a entity has remain unchanged for a long long time. Same system, same bushsh!t, same virtues. To think that China has changed recently into what you see today is naive.

I would invite you to read the first line from "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms". It explains the how China works to a T.

China works in cycles:
1) Chaos. A time of disunity. A period of brutality and blood letting that puts the Japanese to shame. Factional fighting all claiming true mandate of heaven and right to rule the Middle Kingdom. All under heaven. China WAS the world for a long time for East Asians.
2) A New Emperor is crowned. Someone wins. Chances are he's a right B@stard, for he is the one brutal enough to conqour all.
3) Cleaning house. Old scores are settled. Internal purges removes any possible treat to his power.
4) A new Dynasty. Things get settled. How things work are finally sorted. A period of Unity has dawn. This unity is enforced without reservations. Treason is punishable by death. Securing of borders and domination of the "barbarians" begins.
5) Golden age. A cultural golden age follows, where excess from society allows creativity to flourish.
6) Decline. Though various reasons, the Dynasty become corrupt or overtly oppressive, and we start all over again.

We are now in 4. If you read the historical record of Koreans and Japanese from periods where China is in phase 4, you will see many similarities. Arrogant, pushy, Bullying. Then fast forward to Phase 5, what did they write about? A nation of ritual, of courtesy, of art.

Going back to "The Romance of the Three Kingdoms". Strategist Zhu has to be asked three times to work for one of the Kingdoms because he realised that at that time, China is in phase 1. He understands that the natual forces are pushing China into disunity and smart as he is, he can't fight these natural forces. And he was prove right in the end.

So where did that leave us? In my opinion, China is now in Phase 4. The natural forces pushing for a unified China is strongest in a hundred years. Yes there are problems, but these are problems that Historical China has managed many many times before.

I'm hoping for phase 5 to roll around. Where China will be "cool" again. You do realise that we were the "cool kids" for quite a few times in East Asia right?

Thoughts?

I see that China is in phase #6 now.

1. Chaos. Rise of PLA
2. A New Emperor is crowned. Mao
3. Cleaning house. "liberal bourgeois" cleansed, GLF, GPCR
4. A new Dynasty. Deng takeover, opening up of economy
5. Golden age. Rapid economic development - this was infact considered "cool" by many.
6. Decline. "Though various reasons, the Dynasty become corrupt or overtly oppressive": Now. Huge income inequality, huge dollar investments, one child policy - ticking time bomb, huge gender gap, pollution, rapidly aging population,.... not to mention "your b@stards" being corrupt and overtly oppresive

[Arjun]

Tony, your earlier argument was that your oh-so Buddhist sensibilities were offended when India retaliated against China's instigation of rivalries against India...Can we get back on topic and can you summarise again for my benefit why as a committed Buddhist you have an interest in appearing repeatedly on BRF to advise India against retaliating, but apparently never had the guts to raise your voice inside China to reach the CPC that what they have done to initiate rivalry against India is wrong?

I hunt animals for their meat and skin. I don't make a very good Buddhist. I was thinking from your point of view, and points out that your actions might be "wrong" according to your own believes, which you hold dear. I was corrected later by other posters that, in fact, I was wrong in my judgement on what you believed. I no longer hold that opinion. India can be a hegemony all you want. If it makes you happy.

Tony, I am afraid you have zero knowledge about Hinduism if you think it is a pacifist religion...It is pacifist to the extent that it does not want to be the initiator of provocation. The central point of India's key epic, the Mahabharata, is the concept of a 'just war' where it becomes the duty of those who uphold dharma, or Indian values, to take up arms and vanquish the enemy who does not uphold these values, and fight the latter to their death.

Further, your logical standards are obviously not on par with those your compatriots are known for.....you still are unable to grasp the difference between hegemony / being a bully and reacting to one, after how many posts where we have gone through this?

Ok, now that that matter is hopefully settled, lets move to the other point that you still have not answered. Unless I am mistaken you still are against India retaliating against China's support for Pakistan and nuclear proliferation to Pakistan? Are you for friendship between India or China, or are you not? If you are, why are you asking the aggrived party not to retaliate, while not raising your voice inside your own country to try and reach the CPC that they should not provoke India?

[sanjaykumar]

Mention of Hu Yaobang had vanished from the Chinese media until he was "rehabilitated" by the Premier.



In China, the past is unpredictable.

Sorry to reiterate-It circumscribes Chinese puffery economically.

[svinayak]

Why do we feed the troll

[Arjun]

why do we allow the troll?

[rgsrini]

Do you take pride in the fact that Chinese copy off Indian? What's the point of a first-mover-advantage if you don't utilise it? When we Chinese see a good idea, we'll take it.
The only thing that matters is who is doing it better. It don't mean jack if the Indian kid started engineering a year early, if the Chinese kid are beating him in the exams.

Tony,
You don't come across as average Chinese. You are way more smarter than the average chinese. Am I right? Good for you!

You are absolutely right about the statements I have quoted above. The only thing that matters is who is doing it better? I have seen Chinese coming up with copies of Bajaj Pulsar (Is it Gulsar), Chinese scooty, Chinese Cisco routers/switches, Chinese Ipod and now believe it or not chinese Iphones. I have heard that a significant portion of "inspired" medicines sold in the world come from China, including some with "Made in India" labels. I have to admire your ability to "take the idea" from others and negate the "first mover advantage" to the inventors. No one can beat you guys in this really!!!

Have you seen a chinese Ipod? It absolutely looks amazing from a distance! A friend of mine recently visited china and got one for less than $40. He couldn't believe his luck. It would have cost him $500 in USA. The only minor issue is that it doesn't have GPS, doesn't support wifi, the touch screen doesn't work always. But who cares after the money has changed hands right? I agree.

Regarding the "inspired" V.iagra, I heard that most of it is inert pill with no API in it. More than 20% of the users will see an improvement due to "Placebo effect" anyway and they will be repeat customers. The remaining 80% will also buy again. They will probably go for the costlier "maximum strength" this time.

You are absolutely right. The only thing that matters is who is doing it better?

[sanjaykumar]

I believe the greatest human rights abuse is economic deprivation.

And I naively thought it was being forced to read the little red book when you were barely literate to read your name, killing millions so the Great Leader could continue his unwashed fornications for the Revolution, emptying the universities so the farms would be fertilized with class enemies' blood (literally), forcing women from 2000 km away to 'marry' soldiers in occupied Uigherstan, keeping peasants from cities so that they may benefit from the pastoral paradise that is rural China, sending country yokels to Korea to thoughtfully act as bayonet dummies for Americans, harvest organs from counter-revolutionaries (how convenient). China is a 20th century cesspool ready for extermination in the 21st.

And least of all....not having a choice in opinion. Likely explained by the fact that Chinese minds are great so they all think alike.

[svinayak]

Frankfurter Rundschau, Germany
China Shouldn't Demand 'Face' it Denies to Others

The Beijing government distinguishes itself on the international arena with its gruff manner. It has a demonstrably tough attitude. In this way, it has achieved the opposite of what it desires most: recognition.

EDITORIAL

Translated By Stephanie Martin

October 1, 2010

Germany - Frankfurter Rundschau - Original Article (German)
Chinese, it is said, must never allow themselves to lose face. But how should they handle the “face” of others? On the political front, China’s government is increasingly leaving the impression that it is acting particularly un-Chinese. Beijing's diplomats are increasingly attracting attention because of their unnecessary gruffness. This was most recently seen in its attitude toward Japan; and before that, toward neighboring countries in the South China Sea; and for years in its monetary conflict against the entire world. Is this the face of the new superpower?

Beijing's politicians reiterate at every opportunity that China doesn't want to be a threat to other countries. They say they are merely pursuing a policy of “peaceful development,” and point to the fact that the entire global economy and thousands of foreign companies are reaping the benefits of the economic boom in the People’s Republic.



That’s true! But how can the neighbors not get affright, when Beijing turns a political trifle into a confrontation with Japan? The arrest of a captain whose fishing boat rammed two Japanese coast guard vessels in disputed waters resulted in the cancelation of all high-level political meetings; has inflamed anti-Japanese sentiment; and vital raw materials shipments have been blocked. [Chiefly, rare earth minerals for electronics].

How can China’s South Asian neighbors - Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei, and the Philippines - not be concerned, when the People’s Republic equips its navy for operations on the open sea and plants flags at the bottom of the South China Sea to assert claims to territories that, based on applicable United Nations conventions, belong to its South Asian neighbors? (By the way, China arrests dozens of Vietnamese fishermen every year in disputed ocean territories and often only lets them go months later in exchange for ransom). And how is it possible for other nations not to object when China uses its artificially cheap currency to devour its global competitors - a policy that above all imposes suffering on other developing and emerging nations, whose competitiveness is undermined by the People’s Republic?

The question is not whether the Chinese have the right to fight for their interests on the international stage - of course they do, and neither are they required more than other nations to wear kid gloves. The question is whether China's current strategy takes the country where it wants to go: to greater prosperity, greater influence and greater international acceptance.

Why can’t China adopt softer tone toward Japan, calmly seek compromise with its neighbors bordering the South China Sea and make some concessions toward the world on the currency dispute? In Beijing, there is an assumption that China must consistently demonstrate toughness, or otherwise it won't be taken seriously. At the same time, it is a growing source of national pride for Chinese to stand up to the rest of the world.
Posted by WORLDMEETS.US



China no longer wants to put up with the arrogance of the West, particularly of the U.S. - not noticing that it has long since copied it. In this way, the People’s Republic loses ground on its claim to become a better world power - a credible leading nation for mankind’s impoverished majority. China could also be setting in motion a dangerous self-fulfilling prophecy: the more emphatically Beijing accuses other nations of trying to contain it, the more likely that the world will be compelled to actually do so.

Tokyo, which was recently seeking greater independence from big brother Washington, is suddenly showing a renewed interest in closer ties. Vietnam as well, feels itself forced to enter into a military alliance with its former enemy. And even though America’s claim to global leadership is meeting resistance in a growing number of countries, the world is nonetheless watching with suspenseful admiration to see whether the government in Washington will really dare to attempt a showdown on the yuan issue, which Congress is trying to usher in with its latest decision on retaliatory tariffs, an action that other nation is prepared to attempt.

There can no longer be any doubt that China is a strong global power. But strength isn't only about proving one’s toughness. China would be well advised to allow other countries to preserve what they demand for themselves: face.


Read more: http://worldmeets.us/ http://worldmeets.us/frankfurterrundsch ... z11MUzU69D

[shiv]

I believe the greatest human rights abuse is economic deprivation.

I don't have to look further then India to see that vote-bank democracy are not the same as Denmark or New Zealand.

What I am is a realist. We can debate the right and wrong of collectivelism and individualism all day. It doesn't make the day to day life better for anyone.

One of the things I used to say when I was much younger is that while money does not bring happiness, at least you are spared one source of anxiety if you have money. At least poverty is one thing you will never have to face. This is in fact the basis for the next "step up" from this conclusion i.e. "Economic deprivation is the greatest human rights abuse"

It is difficult to argue against this statement and in fact any argument is likely to be mere semantics.

But economic deprivation is always patchy. More in some areas and among some people an less among others. Those variations in India are visible to everyone and open for all to see which enables everyone to reach judgement on what India and Indians should be doing.

In perfect consonance with that the only things that Indians want to do is change the status of those who are economically backward without necessarily wasting effort on needless conflict. However only a naive country imagines that other will not impose conflict. China is seen as a nation bent on imposing conflict on India. And while many Indian would like to single mindedly follow the route of economic development without conflict - China is part of India's problem. Not because it is growing, but because it seeks to impose conflict.

Lectures about what India should do are a dime a dozen. If you have a society that shits out in the open, you will have plenty of people talking about the best place for Indians to crap.

Indians do not think that China needs to impose conflict on India because Indians have by and large been happy to see see the rise of China - genuinely believing that the world order can change only if most of the people in the world can have their lives changed. This is why Chinese aggression is viewed with hurt and alarm. There is an uncouth and uncivlized side of China that has never been seen in India before. To an extent - it almost seems as though Indians do not want to believe that China can be doing this to India. India is not seen by Indians as a nation that has historically wronged China. There is actually hurt and disbelief in India while Indians decide what to do. China is not see as a wealthy nation like the US (or Denmark) Chinese peasants are viewed as simple people like Indian peasants. There is an element of karma at work here. If China makes some aggressive moves while the hurt and disbelief lasts in India - there may be some gains for China. But over time India wiil delay human development and removal of poverty to make the military stronger. China did that in the 1950s and 60s. Pakistan is still doing that . India can do it too. Indians after all are accustomed to poverty and 10 million Indian deaths is not much by Indian standards.

A militarily strong India that opposes China will eventually end up being a problem for China. If you look at the countries that consume the maximum resources in the world today, neither India or china are at the top of the list yet. But those at the top are the very countries that gain from a needless India China rivalry. And I am pinning the blame for needless India China rivalry squarely on China and the Chinese Communist Party.

The space India gives to China is not weakenss but hope that the CPC will see sense. The CPC it appears is unable to think straight and so India will have to prepare for confrontation and make it costly for China.

[Dhiman]

I believe the greatest human rights abuse is economic deprivation.

LOL, drone alert going off again.

What I'm trumpting is not the CCP model.

You might as well trumpet the CCP model, because the philosophy that you have been espousing here directly goes into supporting a mindset that accepts and validates CCP's authoritarianism.

Your statement all nations are a form of coercion directly legitimizes CCP's authoritarian regime since coercion is what CCP basically is. Your statement that society is all about behavior modification directly legitimizes controversial CCP's actions such as "one child policy". Finally when you say that the greatest human rights abuse is economic deprivation, you justify CCPs actions which have forced the people to give up their individual and collective freedom without recognizing the fact China's growth today is primarily because of economic freedom but not because of CCP's authoritarian rule. The best thing is that these are not your own original statements as many other Chinese repeat the same statements verbatim in an effort to either make mental peace with and/or legitimize the control that CCP has over their lives.

I'm all for the Historical Chinese Model, where the CCP just happen to adopt. A strong central governing system that prevents instability and want to do well for its people.

But it really doesn't matter whether you are a drone or a loyal card-carrying member. What matters is that the governing model that you advocate above is still the very opposite of the model that Indians are generally comfortable with. In any case, we are not concerned about your domestic affairs, what we are concerned about is the posture that China adopts towards India and whether that leads to peace or conflict. Clearly right now, China is choosing a path of conflict.

Like it or not we Chinese are stuck with the CCP. If there is one thing we Chinese do well, is that we endures. We "eat bitterness". If freedom is the price to pay for our childern to grow up without war and has a good future. It's the price that the Chinese is willing to pay, and has been paying since the first dynasty.

CCP has done a good job of convincing common Chinese that the price of economic growth and stability is freedom. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The bottom line, that Chinese such as yourself don't seem to recognize, is that China's growth is primarily because of devolution of economic power and more economic freedom rather than authoritarianism. As far as peace goes that remains to be seen, becuase CCP is certainly doing a bad job of maintaining peace with India.

[sanjaykumar]

What I'm trumpting is not the CCP model.

You drone on but you just don't get it do you?

This is not about the CCP, it is about the fundamental flaw in the Chinese character. It is about a lack of basic values of civilisation in the Chinese people. The CCP has never been held to account, on the contrary the Chinese people are happy with it doing their thinking for them.

[Pulikeshi]

If either side were to be believed - the other is soon going to implode and go up in flames.
Reality is most likely stranger, both countries are going to be around for a while in Asia.
What is less certain are the boundaries and nature of the polity running the show.

Ironically, it would seem most of arguments are being made by people who have never
set foot in each others land, smelled the local air and made direct assessments.
I am happy to be corrected, but trolls or not the interesting thing for BRF
is the switch from talking about Pakistan elusively and moving to China.
If the 'trolls' achieve as many threads on China as there are on Pakistan, then there is a
chance that some progress will be made in understanding China and the nature of the threat.

Right now, as ambiguous as the title of this thread - not sure who is threatening whom!

[rohitvats]

I personally think that the two gents (now, this is an assumpiton) are doing really fine job here. If one ever wanted to get a peek into the mind of people from the middle kingdom - this is the best opportunity. No amount of literature reading on Chinese can match the insight offered by posts of these two gents.

Let them continue and we'll learn more.

As for Chinese policies in the region - well, IMO, they've shot themselves in the feet. By virtue of their overt aggressive behaviour, they managed to push the babus and Indian politicians to the wall - now, we all know that until the threat is existential in nature, nothing can move these people.

Consider what Chinese have pushed Indians to do -

(a) The GOI actually sent a written directive to the Service Chiefs to prepare for a two front war. While the Services have always gamed such a scenario, this written directive was unprecendented. What it basically means is that GOI as a body is cognizant of the threat posed by China militarily and has moved to address the situation

(b) GOI has sanctioned increasing the strength of Indian Arrmy.

(c) IA has put forth proposal for 10-11 Divisions - 4 (6?) + 2 (I) Infantry Brigades have been approved and balance are expected.

(d) A new Strike Corps authorized for Mountain Warfare. One more expected.

So, what has Chinese policies achieved vis-a-vis India?

[sanjaykumar]

I am happy to be corrected, but trolls or not the interesting thing for BRF
is the switch from talking about Pakistan elusively and moving to China.


Thank you for noticing this-I lost interest on Pakistan over 5 yrs ago-there are only so many ways of calling them losers. They have been morally vanquished, their ideology as bankrupt as their economy. I do not consider them worthy to be India's rival in any way.

Some may recall that I once posted a comment-India is seeing off one peer-competitor, the other looks easier.

[RajeshA]

I am happy to be corrected, but trolls or not the interesting thing for BRF
is the switch from talking about Pakistan exclusively and moving to China.

On 29th August I wrote something similar in US and PRC relationship & India Thread.

Beijing gets de facto control over Gilgit

This should become the singular focus of India. Let's forget the pit-o-shit in Pakistan. That is only for entertainment. This is serious.

I too thought it was the high time that we bell the cat, so that it loses its stealth. And so this thread.

Pakistan still remains a threat, but Indian obsession with so-to-speak 'putting our house (the Indian Subcontinent) in order before we venture out' was being used by China, IMO, to move its pieces into their positions, before India even starts responding. Pakistan IMHO has acted as very effective horse-blinders on India, making us concentrate only on the moves of the Pakistanis and forget what the Chinese were up to.

We on BRF should get to know our PRC, CPC, PLA just as well as we know our TSP, RAPEs, MLs, PPPs, JIs, LeTs, etc.

I think neither East Asians (Japanese, Koreans, Vietnamese), nor Westerners (Americans, British) can take apart the Chinese psyche and behavior in the unique way Indians would once we get to know them better.

I see shiv saar already sharpening his knife for some psychological surgery on this new animal on the block.

The day we on BRF have a vibrant BENIS Dhaaga dedicated to PRC, that would be the day, we would truly have conquered the Himalayas, and have become an Asian country.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 04, 2010
By Subhash Kapila
China Throws Strategic Challenge At US In South China Sea: South Asia Analysis Group

Defining the South China Sea as a "core national interest" by China in 2010 is a game-changer in the East Asia strategic geometry. In one swift stroke, China has changed the overall dimension of the South China Sea disputes from one of islands disputes with East Asia and South East Asian countries to one of a global power play between the United States and China.

In a certain way, this can also be construed as the first shot fired by China towards the inevitability, which one has maintained, of an ultimate conflict between China and the United States for strategic predominance in East Asia.

[Karan Dixit]

Your average Chinese don't care about India.

But the problem is not even the Chinese government gives a hoot about what average Chinese think. As long China is in occupation of Indian territory and Tibet, China will remain an enemy. It does not matter whether Chinese think we are important or not. We will continue to build our military with the aim of taking back our land and liberating Tibet. It does not matter how important China is.

[Lalmohan]

why just tibet?
uiguristhan, mongolia and manchuria are chafing beneath the yoke of imperial servitude

[Karan Dixit]

TonyMontana,

Get it through your head. It is irrelevant what Chinese people care about. What is relevant is you are in illegal occupation of Indian territories. Why is it so difficult for a smart guy like you to understand? That is why we are building the stockpile of nukes and weapons. It is not because we want to be important like China. Think before you post.

[svinayak]

It is irrelevant what Chinese people care about.

We are only concerned about what the CPC and PLA cares about. We are not worried about the chinese people.