Managing Chinese Threat

[RajeshA]

TonyMontana ji,

You do often say, that Chinese people don't really care about Indians. To tell you the truth, that is not much different than the situation in India. Nobody in India know or care what the Chinese think or what they do.

I personally think that that should change.

Let's just say, not caring about some other people, doesn't make somebody cool, or the other people not worthy of interest.

[TonyMontana]

I see that China is in phase #6 now.

Sure. That is your opinion. Let's come back to this in 20 years.

Tony, I am afraid you have zero knowledge about Hinduism if you think it is a pacifist religion...

I didn't know anything. My knowledge of Hinduism comes from my knowledge of Buddhism. Thus the confusion. I stand corrected. All part of my BRF experience.

Further, your logical standards are obviously not on par with those your compatriots are known for.....you still are unable to grasp the difference between hegemony / being a bully and reacting to one, after how many posts where we have gone through this?

Nuclear proliferation(to vietnam, tawiwan) , sponsoring of terrorism (Eastern Turkistan), threats of terrirtorial expansion(Tibet as a part of Indian Union)? It sounds like some posters want India to be a hegemony and is just too polite to say it. That's what it looks like from my side of the river.

Ok, now that that matter is hopefully settled, lets move to the other point that you still have not answered. Unless I am mistaken you still are against India retaliating against China's support for Pakistan and nuclear proliferation to Pakistan? Are you for friendship between India or China, or are you not? If you are, why are you asking the aggrived party not to retaliate, while not raising your voice inside your own country to try and reach the CPC that they should not provoke India?

Do I want my homeland to be attacked? No. Do I want friendship with India? Yes. Is it up to me at all? No. Is it up to you at all? Not much.

You are absolutely right. The only thing that matters is who is doing it better?

I know. India is exceding China in every field right? Hey. The Chinese are trying okay? Give us a break. What do you want us to do? Overtime?

And I naively thought it was being forced to read the little red book when you were barely literate to read your name, killing millions so the Great Leader could continue his unwashed fornications for the Revolution, emptying the universities so the farms would be fertilized with class enemies' blood (literally), forcing women from 2000 km away to 'marry' soldiers in occupied Uigherstan, keeping peasants from cities so that they may benefit from the pastoral paradise that is rural China, sending country yokels to Korea to thoughtfully act as bayonet dummies for Americans, harvest organs from counter-revolutionaries (how convenient). China is a 20th century cesspool ready for extermination in the 21st.

Wow. Don't know what to say to that one. But to answer your question. There's no excuse for what Mao did. But they happened. And they ended. It's 50 years ago. Economic deprivation lasts generations.

....

I'll answer you in a seperate post.

But it really doesn't matter whether you are a drone or a loyal card-carrying member. What matters is that the governing model that you advocate above is still the very opposite of the model that Indians are generally comfortable with.

CCP has done a good job of convincing common Chinese that the price of economic growth and stability is freedom.

For someone trumpeting strength in diversity, freedom of thought, you seem dead set against east asians liking to be united. Or do your acceptence of difference in opinion only runs as deep as what Indians are comfortable with?

Why does a group of people that value unity, historically, presently, and likely in the future too, makes you uncomfortable?

This is not about the CCP, it is about the fundamental flaw in the Chinese character. It is about a lack of basic values of civilisation in the Chinese people. The CCP has never been held to account, on the contrary the Chinese people are happy with it doing their thinking for them.

Again. Wow. I think you might be embarrassing other Indian posters on BRF. Maybe you'll like to re-educate us, maybe in some sort of camps.

If either side were to be believed - the other is soon going to implode and go up in flames.
Reality is most likely stranger, both countries are going to be around for a while in Asia.
What is less certain are the boundaries and nature of the polity running the show.

A voice of sanity. I whole heartly agrees.

Ironically, it would seem most of arguments are being made by people who have never
set foot in each others land, smelled the local air and made direct assessments.

The closest I got to India was a month trip to Sri Lanka for a friend's wedding. The more you know...

What is relevant is you are in illegal occupation of Indian territories.

Alright, you got me there. But that's your problem to solve. Good luck with it.

You do often say, that Chinese people don't really care about Indians. To tell you the truth, that is not much different than the situation in India. Nobody in India know or care what the Chinese think or what they do.

I personally think that that should change.

Let's just say, not caring about some other people, doesn't make somebody cool, or the other people not worthy of interest.

You misunderstood me. I'm well aware that most people don't care, they got better things to do, then shoot the sh!t on an internet forum when work is slow. I didn't mean to gloat when I posted that. If you go back to read the thread, it came up organically as a part of the conversation.

[RajeshA]

Further, your logical standards are obviously not on par with those your compatriots are known for.....you still are unable to grasp the difference between hegemony / being a bully and reacting to one, after how many posts where we have gone through this?

Nuclear proliferation(to vietnam, tawiwan) , sponsoring of terrorism (Eastern Turkistan), threats of terrirtorial expansion(Tibet as a part of Indian Union)? It sounds like some posters want India to be a hegemony and is just too polite to say it. That's what it looks like from my side of the river.

Who did what first is the issue?
a) Nuclear Proliferation: China to Pakistan in 1980. India should RESPOND to that with Nuclear Proliferation to Vietnam, Taiwan after 2010. Till now India has not done this.

b) Sponsoring of Terrorism: China supporting ULFA in Assam (North-East India), Maoists in Central India, Shielding Pakistani Terrorist Organizations in UN. Should India start supporting East Turkestani separatists after such Chinese behavior, it would be simply retaliation. Till now India has not done such a thing.

c) Threats of Territorial Expansion: China has been making claims on Indian Land in North India and in Arunachal Pradesh and dragging its feet on boundary settlement. Should India indulge in a similar policy, it would only to push back Chinese aggressive designs in India.

I hope you have the IQ to understand CAUSE & EFFECT. China provides the CAUSE, India provides the EFFECT. CAUSE makes China into a bully, a hegemon, a villain. EFFECT makes India the good-looking dashing hero.

[rgsrini]

rgsrini wrote:
You are absolutely right. The only thing that matters is who is doing it better?

I know. India is exceding China in every field right? Hey. The Chinese are trying okay? Give us a break. What do you want us to do? Overtime?

Sir,
I thought we are aligned on this. But I do understand how difficult it can be to answer everyone's post in one go. Just to jog your memory, it was you who quoted "The only thing that matters is who is doing it better". I was just agreeng with you and even went out of the way to provide some good examples of successful adaptation "borrowed ideas" by Chinese. I don't understand why you are "hurt" now. I only wish the Chinese well and want them to do exactly the same thing they are doing now.

I also think you have overlooked my other question. You seem to be very knowledgeable about both China and India and that is the reason for me to ask that question. I pharaphrase it here to save some time for you. "Aren't you a little smarter than the average chinese?"

[TonyMontana]

One of the things I used to say when I was much younger is that while money does not bring happiness, at least you are spared one source of anxiety if you have money. At least poverty is one thing you will never have to face. This is in fact the basis for the next "step up" from this conclusion i.e. "Economic deprivation is the greatest human rights abuse"

It is difficult to argue against this statement and in fact any argument is likely to be mere semantics.

But economic deprivation is always patchy. More in some areas and among some people an less among others. Those variations in India are visible to everyone and open for all to see which enables everyone to reach judgement on what India and Indians should be doing.

In perfect consonance with that the only things that Indians want to do is change the status of those who are economically backward without necessarily wasting effort on needless conflict. However only a naive country imagines that other will not impose conflict. China is seen as a nation bent on imposing conflict on India. And while many Indian would like to single mindedly follow the route of economic development without conflict - China is part of India's problem. Not because it is growing, but because it seeks to impose conflict.

My money is still down on that there will not be conflict. Is seen and Is are different things. Maybe there is a method to their madness. I don't know. But actual conflict? Not over India. And not anytime soon.

Lectures about what India should do are a dime a dozen. If you have a society that shits out in the open, you will have plenty of people talking about the best place for Indians to crap.

Indians do not think that China needs to impose conflict on India because Indians have by and large been happy to see see the rise of China - genuinely believing that the world order can change only if most of the people in the world can have their lives changed. This is why Chinese aggression is viewed with hurt and alarm. There is an uncouth and uncivlized side of China that has never been seen in India before. To an extent - it almost seems as though Indians do not want to believe that China can be doing this to India. India is not seen by Indians as a nation that has historically wronged China. There is actually hurt and disbelief in India while Indians decide what to do. China is not see as a wealthy nation like the US (or Denmark) Chinese peasants are viewed as simple people like Indian peasants. There is an element of karma at work here. If China makes some aggressive moves while the hurt and disbelief lasts in India - there may be some gains for China. But over time India wiil delay human development and removal of poverty to make the military stronger. China did that in the 1950s and 60s. Pakistan is still doing that . India can do it too. Indians after all are accustomed to poverty and 10 million Indian deaths is not much by Indian standards.

The feeling is mutual for the first bolded part. Now as I mentioned, I was in Sri Lanka. Not quite India, but pretty close right? And I agree. I felt that I went back to my childhood. Because I remember a China like that when I was young. I was prefectly comfortable unlike some of the whiteys. The most humble and good hearted people I've met in China and in Sri Lanka are poor. It shames me to see poor people giving money to beggers while others in my group waves them off.

As for the second part. I'm afraid that is the true plan for China to contain India. Turn India into Pakistan where you're obsessed with China and neglect your own internal human development. That is scarier then "probing" on the border. And if some posters on BRF gets their way, China will be laughing all the way to the bank.

A militarily strong India that opposes China will eventually end up being a problem for China. If you look at the countries that consume the maximum resources in the world today, neither India or china are at the top of the list yet. But those at the top are the very countries that gain from a needless India China rivalry. And I am pinning the blame for needless India China rivalry squarely on China and the Chinese Communist Party.

The space India gives to China is not weakenss but hope that the CPC will see sense. The CPC it appears is unable to think straight and so India will have to prepare for confrontation and make it costly for China.

Why is it a problem for China? Is India going to attack China? Liberate Tibet? No? Then why would it be a problem for China? China is making you spend money to get back what is yours in the first place. What happens after that? Even if you get back what China occupies now. What did China lose? But if that sets Indian development back by just 5 years. It's a win, in the race between the rabbit and the turtle.

My hope too is, as the middle class in China continue to grow, and as China mature as a new dynasty, our old ways of ritual, courtesy and law will become resurgent. A chinese renaissance in a way. But democracy? Not the Chinese way. We want our Emperor. Long live the Emperor!

[TonyMontana]

I also think you have overlooked my other question. You seem to be very knowledgeable about both China and India and that is the reason for me to ask that question. I pharaphrase it here to save some time for you. "Aren't you a little smarter than the average chinese?"

I wasn't hurt. I was trying to be funny. And failing by the look of it.

No. I'm not smarter then the average Chinese. You'll be surprise at how well read some of the new graduates coming out of China is. Their understanding of tradtional Chinese thoughts puts me to shame. I might know more in different areas. But not smarter.

[TonyMontana]

I hope you have the IQ to understand CAUSE & EFFECT. China provides the CAUSE, India provides the EFFECT. CAUSE makes China into a bully, a hegemon, a villain. EFFECT makes India the good-looking dashing hero.

If someone rapes your daughter, is the right thing to rape theirs? By doing what China did. It makes you a hegemony. By definition.

[RajeshA]

I hope you have the IQ to understand CAUSE & EFFECT. China provides the CAUSE, India provides the EFFECT. CAUSE makes China into a bully, a hegemon, a villain. EFFECT makes India the good-looking dashing hero.

If someone rapes your daughter, is the right thing to rape theirs? By doing what China did. It makes you a hegemony. By definition.

If someone rapes your daughter. The right thing is to put the raper away for good somewhere where they belong - in prison. India cannot afford to let the raper China go scot free. Punishment is a must. We have to see, what is the proper punishment. Can you propose any?

[sanjaykumar]

My personal great character flaw is that I do not suffer fools. So long Tony.

[Pulikeshi]

This is short intentionally ( ), as there is much ADHD on this thread.
Will formulate something more detailed later in an article that is cooking:

India is unique geographically; it is stuck to Asia in a very strategic location.
It forms a bridge between the West and the East both on land as well as on water.
Not only that, it forms a pivot for freedom and democracy across Brihat- (greater as in including Europe) Asia.

To the East, India is surrounded by partly free and not free states.
To the North, India is surrounded by partly free and not free states.
To the West, India is surrounded by partly free and not free states.

China, symptomatic of its ‘little emperors’ due to a failing one child policy, does not want or have a vision for the future of Brihat-Asia. All that is possible to decipher from Chinese actions are poor social and cooperation skills characteristic of problems exhibited by one child policy children. In dealing with the rest of Brihat-Asia, China wants, but rarely gives. This means, the impetus is on the other nations to enable and engage China in a way that allows for conflict free resolution of problems in a democratic and rule based way.

India, for its part is too focused internally and has until very recently paid scant attention to its environment. While it is good that India has started to engage economically its immediate neighbors, it is not clear what goals India seeks in Brihat-Asia. Especially, with a petulant China there is a tendency in India to be the introverted child that does not want to play with a rude kid. However, unlike children in a school yard, India the country cannot choose its neighbors or move its geography. Indian needs to become more extroverted.

One set of options for India is to encourage and engage NGOs that are working on spreading democratic values in Brihat-Asia, with an initial focus on East Asia. An exploding increasingly educated population means, setting up an Indian version of a Peace Corp for Brihat-Asia. This corp can spread the seeds of cooperation, tolerance, democracy and engage in building Brihat-Asia in the image of India.

Second, an alliance with like minded countries that includes China and US to work beyond the economic issues that arise in Brihat-Asia. It is unclear if ASEAN, SCO, SAARC or some such local organization can morph into such an entity or if a new form of organization is required. However, engaging a key set of countries to start this process is a good first step to answer such questions. Setting up organizations that span a large continent such as Brihat-Asia that contains the majority of the worlds population will also in the long run provide hedging against antiquated institutions such as the UN and the UNSC.

Third, is to form local alliances Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam and Australia among others. India will have to punch above her weight, but if the destabilizing force of China, to paraphrase Mearsheimer, is to be countered, it will start by offering the avenue to resolve conflicts peacefully. Such an alliance could enforce modes of behavior that is acceptable in seeing a peaceful rise of the Indian sub-continent and East Asia.

Finally, the US at this juncture seems to be interested in boxing China into East Asia and boxing India into South Asia. Historically, India has influenced Brihat Asia as a cultural giant. Rarely but in a few instances as a nation-state, but it would be incorrect to view the modern Indian dispensation with derision due to the structure of the past powers emanating from the Indian sub-continent. This version carries in it not only the genetics of the Maurya, but also that of the Mughal and British India. Thus, India will have to describe to the US the opportunity cost of not siding with it as it seeks to become a beacon of stability, freedom and democracy in the largest continent in the world – Brihat-Asia. In the short term, India has an opportunity to work with the US in North and West Asia, to hedge between Chinese and Russian influences in that region. Therefore, providing for itself the ability to arbitrate the power structure of Brihat-Asia.

Just my two paisas on managing the Chinese threat

[VinodTK]

A Beijing Backlash

Another survey, by the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a Washington think tank, found that most elites in Asia said the U.S. would be the greatest source of peace in the region 10 years from now, while China would be the biggest threat. For that reason, Southeast Asian nations have recently welcomed a greater American defense presence. Vietnam, which theoretically enjoys a close relationship with China as a fellow communist state, has launched a strategic dialogue with its old enemy the U.S. and may embark upon a nuclear deal in which Washington provides Hanoi with enrichment technology that China had once hoped to provide. Within 10 years, Vietnam could be America’s de facto closest ally in Southeast Asia, other than Singapore. Indonesia, also courted intensely by China, this year embarked upon a new “comprehensive partnership” with the U.S. that includes new military links; at the U.S.-ASEAN summit in New York, Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalegawa publicly rejected China’s demand that Southeast Asian nations keep America out of the South China Sea dispute. Even Cambodia, a country heavily dependent on Chinese aid, has opened new defense ties with the Pentagon; the Cambodian and American militaries conducted joint military exercises, nicknamed Angkor Sentinel, earlier this year.

[rgsrini]

No. I'm not smarter then the average Chinese. You'll be surprise at how well read some of the new graduates coming out of China is. Their understanding of tradtional Chinese thoughts puts me to shame. I might know more in different areas. But not smarter.

Thanks for confirming Tony. I do concur that the average chinese is smarter. Precisely, why there is hope for China.

[naren]

As for the second part. I'm afraid that is the true plan for China to contain India. Turn India into Pakistan where you're obsessed with China and neglect your own internal human development. That is scarier then "probing" on the border. And if some posters on BRF gets their way, China will be laughing all the way to the bank.

Funny. China can engage in militarism (pearls/propping up TSP/grabbing GB/claiming Ar.P), but will not have any impact in its econ. If India does the same -I mean no direct conflict, but an equal-equal response-, then suddenly India will be "left behind" in the race and China will be laughing all the way to the bank ? Beneath, the "well intentioned advise" (a la the cat Swamiji of Mahabalipuram ), I see insecurity. So, +1 to BRFites - we're in the right direction.

China is making you spend money to get back what is yours in the first place. What happens after that? Even if you get back what China occupies now. What did China lose? But if that sets Indian development back by just 5 years. It's a win, in the race between the rabbit and the turtle.

Thats a good point. So India should not try to win back the occupied territories. The apt response would be to make Taiwan "unattainable" to China. So when PRC laughs at us saying "we own your territory, you cant have it", we can shoot back "our captured territories are not useful to us anyway. But we made sure that you cant have the much more valuable part of your 'motherland' either"

Thanks for contributing to the thread - we just need more "friendlies" like you to evolve a solid strategy.

[shiv]

A militarily strong India that opposes China will eventually end up being a problem for China.

Why is it a problem for China? Is India going to attack China? Liberate Tibet?

You answered your own question before asking it

I'm afraid that is the true plan for China to contain India. Turn India into Pakistan where you're obsessed with China and neglect your own internal human development. That is scarier then "probing" on the border.

China in fact is not needed at all for India to turn into Pakistan. India can do that on her own. But if India becomes Pakistan, I can guarantee that China will be affected simply because India will break up into several states - some of whom will be like European powerhouses and others like your tarrel and deepel friend Pakistan. These states will ally with different foreign nations (maybe even Tibet or China) for control of trade routes and resources. Some of these states will have nuclear arms and a space capability. And China will have to use her rockets to ship oil from the gulf. And if China allies with the usual Paki type allies in India - Indians who are already sulking and angry with China are likely to make nuclear war come once again. It was Mao after all who said it was OK for 300 million Chinese to die.

Anyhow - this is idle speculation. Despite appearances Indians have no near term ambition to allow this to happen. China wil be made to fail in this "containment policy". The carcass of China's first failure is now being dangled in front of the Chicoms - Pakistan.

[brihaspati]

I think we need to spare Tony Montana ji. Even though I mentioned a while ago, he does not seem to understand the Indian thought process. He tries to model India by his Chinese model of Emperors and their devoted subjects. Because he does not see that, and there are lots of noises about "development only", he thinks India is going to suffer by racing China militarily.

Actually once the Indian mind is made up, Indian philosophy makes it clear that the "objective" will be steadfastly held on to, and "action" is undertaken without expectation of rewards. So if we make up our mind to finish off the communist party of China and the communist army, we will do it - for it is also intimately connected to our development. Finishing off CPC+PLA is as important as erasing POWI - for together they are costing us simply by existing - resources that would have been better put towards "internal development". This is something that the Chinese apologists would not like us to see.

Development is intimately connected with the erasure of these two entities. And nothing that "friends" try to convince us otherwise will suffice. As for the common Chinese suffering from Indian "hegemony" - a theme that is being repeatedly harped on - because the Chinese elite mindset has now become tuned to a Marxian dichotomy - either you impose "hegemony" on others or others impose their "hegemony" on you. There is no other thought or possibility left in their statesmanship. If in spite of all care, the Chinese do have to suffer Indian hegemony in parts which they had previously conquered by force [or sneaked in using the generosity of bigger sharks] and exploited, then it will be for the reason that they have tolerated the CPC and PLA - thats all.

[Karan Dixit]

Montana,

Another thing you have not gotten through your head is no body asked you to solve the problem. So, what is the point in wishing me luck with my problem.

Since you are smarter than average Chinese, you should know that 'whitey' is a racist slur and you should not use it. The correct term is Caucasian or White.

---

On a separate note, if China is interested in solving the problem here is what China can do:

- Return illegally occupied territory of India (including COK)
- Leave Tibet

If China can do all the above, I see no reason why there cannot be peace between India and China. However, if China is not prepared to do that then there is no way there can be peace.

[shiv]

I have heard some interestingly dogmatic opinions in this thread and I have a few thoughts

Quoting from memory

• All government is coercion
• Chinese are one people
• Economic deprivation is the worst form of human rights abuse
• Chinese worship their ancestors

If you take all these statements together, it is possible to conclude that Tibetans are not Chinese.

Tibetans are Buddhists and they do not worship their ancestors. If anything they worship their mentor, or teacher. Renunciation of all worldly goods is the ultimate path that is sought in Tibetan Buddhism and this is a religious sanction of deliberate and voluntary economic deprivation.

Applying coercive pressure on people to accept "economic improvement" against a religious tenet that demands renunciation is a form of human rights abuse. The Tibetans do not worship their ancestors, and they are certainly not "one with the Chinese people". So there is a little lie that is being passed as a truism. But Tibetans are only 2.6 million. So might is right.

But if might is right why the excuses? Why not openly say "Screw the bloody Tibetans. We keep Tibet". That would be honesty no? Is it necessary to save face by describing the occupation of a country as "reunification", by calling rape as "marriage".

China in Tibet is foreign occupation and colonization. The very evil that the Chicoms used to whine about - imperial expansionism is now their pride and joy.

[Sidhant]

Nuclear proliferation(to vietnam, tawiwan) , sponsoring of terrorism (Eastern Turkistan), threats of terrirtorial expansion(Tibet as a part of Indian Union)? It sounds like some posters want India to be a hegemony and is just too polite to say it. That's what it looks like from my side of the river.

If Indians even think about it they make India hegemony , but China even after doing all this is a benevolent peaceful powel whose wishes and fancies should be entertained. Whats wrong with your side of river dude .

[Karan Dixit]

My personal great character flaw is that I do not suffer fools. So long Tony.

I doubt he is fool. He is just acting like one.

[Sidhant]

Why is it a problem for China? Is India going to attack China? Liberate Tibet? No? Then why would it be a problem for China? China is making you spend money to get back what is yours in the first place. What happens after that? Even if you get back what China occupies now. What did China lose? But if that sets Indian development back by just 5 years. It's a win, in the race between the rabbit and the turtle.

Are you serious brother? If India even manages to even wrest back the territory which is rightfully hers, then China has nothing to loose . I was wondering what will happen to pretty Chinese faces of PLA, PLAAF and PLAN and above all the heaven mandated CPC. How will the bigshots of China will handle such loss of face, I am sure even the gazillion dollar Chinese economy will not be able to buy any makeup to cover up that loss of face of the super power in making. Even this small blow will turn ur dreams of challenging US or having an Asian hegemony into wet dreams.

[sanjaykumar]

I doubt he is fool. He is just acting like one.

Well he sure gets vowed easily- he is either a six year old or retarded, or perhaps just inspired by his culture of robotism/mindlessness.

[Karan Dixit]

^

The sad part is no one cares what Chinese people think not even their government. The view of a Chinese means absolutely nothing unless he/she is a senior government persona.

As a mango Indian, I can proudly say my view matters at least to my government and to my people. If GOI pisses me off, I can take following actions:

a) Do not vote for the current administration in next election
b) Start a blog
c) Protest
d) Start a signature campaign.
e) Write big check for the opposition party
f) ... etc.

The list is long. At least my countrymen and my government cannot afford to not listen to me, in a limited sense of course.

My suggestion to Chinese posters is think before you post. The least you can offer is honesty as pointed out by someone, be a man and accept that you have robbed Tibetans at a gun point.

[SriSri]

Cross posting:

Exercise Habu Nag - India, United States to Conclude Naval Exercise in East China Sea

[svinayak]

I think we need to spare Tony Montana ji. Even though I mentioned a while ago, he does not seem to understand the Indian thought process. He tries to model India by his Chinese model of Emperors and their devoted subjects. Because he does not see that, and there are lots of noises about "development only", he thinks India is going to suffer by racing China militarily.

They dont understand democracy adn the spirit of the people whose tradition go for 5000 years.
With modern weapons and nukes there is no need to match PRC in military. It is strategic war and denial which is the modern war. They are used to war of attrition.

Actually once the Indian mind is made up, Indian philosophy makes it clear that the "objective" will be steadfastly held on to, and "action" is undertaken without expectation of rewards. So if we make up our mind to finish off the communist party of China and the communist army, we will do it - for it is also intimately connected to our development. Finishing off CPC+PLA is as important as erasing POWI - for together they are costing us simply by existing - resources that would have been better put towards "internal development". This is something that the Chinese apologists would not like us to see.

Their perception of India is based on western resources and British inputs.

Development is intimately connected with the erasure of these two entities. And nothing that "friends" try to convince us otherwise will suffice. As for the common Chinese suffering from Indian "hegemony" - a theme that is being repeatedly harped on - because the Chinese elite mindset has now become tuned to a Marxian dichotomy - either you impose "hegemony" on others or others impose their "hegemony" on you. There is no other thought or possibility left in their statesmanship.

[Dhiman]

For someone trumpeting strength in diversity, freedom of thought, you seem dead set against east asians liking to be united.

Tony ji,

I have no idea who you are confusing me with. Let's just say I give you benefit of doubt on that "freedom of thought" thing, but when have I taken any stance regarding "strength in diversity" or "East Asian Unity" in this discussion? What I said was: Indians are generally not comfortable with an autocratic forms of government. Is there still any doubt in your mind regarding that?

Or do your acceptence of difference in opinion only runs as deep as what Indians are comfortable with?

Hasn't this already been made clear to you (by multiple posters) and I quote one particular instance by shiv ji: You too have freedom like I do. On here at least. You have the freedom to believe the lie that you are telling me. I have the freedom to disagree.

Why does a group of people that value unity, historically, presently, and likely in the future too, makes you uncomfortable?

Again, not sure what you are talking about there, but to get back on track my main point was the following and I repeat: CCP has done a good job of convincing common Chinese that the price of economic growth and stability is freedom. However, nothing could be further from the truth. The bottom line, that Chinese such as yourself don't seem to recognize, is that China's growth is primarily because of devolution of economic power and more economic freedom rather than authoritarianism

Do you agree with this assessment?

[TonyMontana]

Can you propose any?

If it were up to me, I think a $50 fine would cover it. I kid, I kid.

My personal great character flaw is that I do not suffer fools. So long Tony.

Best of luck with your future endeavours.

Thanks for confirming Tony. I do concur that the average chinese is smarter. Precisely, why there is hope for China.

3/10

Next time try to be more spontaneous. It just seemed too forced. I knew you were setting me up for a zinger. When the punch line finally came it lost all of it's impact.

he is either a six year old or retarded, or perhaps just inspired by his culture of robotism/mindlessness.

Personal attacks now? Isn't that against forum rules?

Now the zingers are out of the way. I'll respond to the serious discussion when I have more time.

[svinayak]

Finally, the US at this juncture seems to be interested in boxing China into East Asia and boxing India into South Asia. Historically, India has influenced Brihat Asia as a cultural giant. Rarely but in a few instances as a nation-state, but it would be incorrect to view the modern Indian dispensation with derision due to the structure of the past powers emanating from the Indian sub-continent. This version carries in it not only the genetics of the Maurya, but also that of the Mughal and British India.

India has influenced economically - silk route and also militarily across much of the influence region of Asia. The culture and legal culture of most of the asian nation including Indonasia is from India.

[shiv]

For someone trumpeting strength in diversity, freedom of thought, you seem dead set against east asians liking to be united.

Tony ji,

I have no idea who you are confusing me with. Let's just say I give you benefit of doubt on that "freedom of thought" thing, but when have I taken any stance regarding "strength in diversity" or "East Asian Unity" in this discussion?

I believe Tony has a tendency to post a "general, average impression" of what many different people seem to have opined. That "general, average impression" is sometimes wrong, and sometimes mischievous when it serves as a means of passing off a little concoction as reality. The sentence you have quoted has both these elements - i.e of "general, average impression" and "little fib"

Many on this forum can be characterized as trumpeters of strength in diversity and freedom of thought - which forms the "general, average impression"

The "little fib" lies in the innocuous looking lament/grievance:

dead set against east asians liking to be united

Who are east Asians?
How many want unity with the Han Chinese and their beloved CPC?
Who is dead set against this mythical and deadly combination of east Asian desperately trying to unite?

This forum is dead set against my unification with Angelina Jolie. The accusation is a "you farted" type accusation to put all you ugly jealous bozos on the defensive.

[Pratyush]

It doesnot matter what the US wants from India or PRC. Ultimately it is the mutual relationship of Idnia and PRC that will decide the trajectory of the relationship. The relationship to me increasingly seems to be of "co-opition"(I Spelled it diliberately).

There will be no military conflict, only a race for influence, a race India seems to be laging behind. Once we make up our minds that we are in a race there is no why we can't catch up and roll back the PRC influnce from the Indian near abraod. All the major comments from the PM and the senior members of the GOI suggest that they have realised the situation the nation finds it self in.

Only the responce remains.

JMT

[Pulikeshi]

1. Ironically assuming there will be no military conflict is what caused 62!

2. US is an Asian power, so it will matter. Does not mean it will always get its way.

3. What is the relationship between India and PRC? What is it now and what do each
want it to be in the future?

[Hari Seldon]

Ah, op dhaga lowjack has suckseeded beyond its original madrake mandate, looks like. And to think I predicted this outcome a month+ ago. Aah, but count on me not to go all "Ah told ya sooo...". LOL. Jai hu and all that.

[RajeshA]

If someone rapes your daughter, is the right thing to rape theirs? By doing what China did. It makes you a hegemony. By definition.

If someone rapes your daughter. The right thing is to put the rapist away for good somewhere where they belong - in prison. India cannot afford to let the rapist China go scot free. Punishment is a must. We have to see, what is the proper punishment. Can you propose any?

If it were up to me, I think a $50 fine would cover it. I kid, I kid.

So if it were up to you, you would have fined Japan $10 for the Rape of Nanjing and then let 'em go at that!

[Arjun]

Ok, now that that matter is hopefully settled, lets move to the other point that you still have not answered. Unless I am mistaken you still are against India retaliating against China's support for Pakistan and nuclear proliferation to Pakistan? Are you for friendship between India or China, or are you not? If you are, why are you asking the aggrived party not to retaliate, while not raising your voice inside your own country to try and reach the CPC that they should not provoke India?

Do I want my homeland to be attacked? No. Do I want friendship with India? Yes. Is it up to me at all? No. Is it up to you at all? Not much.

Do I want my homeland to be attacked? No. But my homeland has been attacked by China and by proxies and countries actively supported and armed by China. Do I want friendship with China? Yes, but only on reciprocal terms. Is it up to me at all? To a certain degree, since we are a democracy. Is it upto you at all? Like you agree, No - since you guys are content to live like zombies with no voice of your own in your country.

To clarify once again to you why, at least in my mind, all the plans we are talking about out here are different from being hegemonistic. Because, if China stops its provocations, then the provocations from India would stop. I think your presence here is welcome, if you at least put in some effort to go beyond your CPC-given life as an automaton in China and try and communicate to your comrades that India has 'core concerns' every bit as important as those of China.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 05, 2010
By Lalit K Jha
Indo-US joint amphibious training exercise in East China Sea: PTI

Washington, Oct 5 (PTI) Indian and the US navy are conducting their annual amphibious training exercise Habu Nag -- in the East China Sea, which is designed to enhance their bilateral interoperability, including humanitarian assistance and disaster response.

Forward-deployed amphibious assault ship USS Essex (LHD 2) is participating in this exercise, while several officers of the Indian Armed Forces embarked on t to observe Navy and Marine amphibious training and to participate in a tabletop exercise.

The exercise that started on September 29 is scheduled to conclude today.

"A key aspect is that the US has Marines embedded with Navy staff, doing jobs for the Navy that are Marine Corps oriented and vice versa," said Lt Col Evan Holt, a Marine liaison officer assigned to Commander, Task Force 76, who is working with the Indian officers.

"We want to demonstrate how two different services with two different goals mesh their operations and personnel to complete those goals," Holt said.

Cmdr Gagan Kaushal, of the Indian navy said the exercise gives them the chance to get a ground view of how everything is executed.

"It also gives us the chance to get a ground view of how everything is executed," he said.

Noting that it has been a wonderful experience being on a US ship, Col Manoj Tiwari, of the Indian army said: "We have learned a lot about the US Marine Corps and how they function and work with the naval element.

We have the experience on land; what we hope to learn is how the Marines perform landings and facilitate more fluid interaction between our own naval and amphibious elements."

Published on Oct 05, 2010 (from Google Cache)
By Cpl. Michael A. Bianco , 31st MEU, aboard USS Essex
Indian military officers train with 31st MEU

EAST CHINA SEA (Sept. 30, 2010)-Members of the Indian armed forces tour the bridge of the amphibious assault ship USS Essex (LHD2) and interact with Marines and Sailors of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit Sep. 30. The Indian officers joined the Essex Amphibious Ready Group and the 31st MEU in order to observe Navy and Marine Corps operational planning and teamwork.

Fourteen service members from the Indian Army, Air Force and Navy boarded the ships of the Essex Amphibious Ready Group, Sept. 28, to work alongside Marines of the 31st Marine Expeditionary Unit and Sailors with Amphibious Squadron 11 during exercise Habu Nag 2010.

Indian officers came to observe Navy and Marine Corps amphibious training off the coast of Okinawa and participate in a tabletop planning exercise.

“India and the United States share seafaring traditions,” said Col. Andrew MacMannis, commanding officer, 31st MEU. “We consider them partners and friends, and we strengthen the bonds between our militaries with this training.”

Habu Nag ’10 is the 5th annual, bilateral amphibious training exercise between India and the United States, designed to increase interoperability during amphibious operations, including mock humanitarian assistance/disaster relief operations and mechanized raids.

“We specialize in amphibious operations and work with the U.S. Navy several times a year, but this time we are getting so much more information because of the opportunity to see how the Marines train,” said Col. Manoj Tiwari, amphibious operations coordinator with the Indian Army. “Interoperability developed by exercises such as these enable our forces to better work together in real-world efforts.”

Although Habu Nag is an annual exercise, this is the first time the Indian military had the chance to work alongside Marines in this situation.

[Pratyush]

1. Ironically assuming there will be no military conflict is what caused 62!

2. US is an Asian power, so it will matter. Does not mean it will always get its way.

3. What is the relationship between India and PRC? What is it now and what do each
want it to be in the future?

I assume that the post is addressed to me.

1.If the Indian military posture is robust then the PRC will think twice about trying to attack India as it will cause a massive loss of face it the Military objectives set by PRC are not met. India needs to defend it self well in order to win. A draw is good enough for it. That is the reason why I feel that there will not be a military conflict.
2. Complete agreement, Thats why I mentioned it dose not matter what the US wants from India and the PRC.
3.The relationship is of neighbors who have a dispute but are also doing brisk trade(Skewed towards PRC). They realize that they are in competition in Asia (at least from the CPCs POV). India is not too keen on this competition, which is the reason why it has not actively courted the nations in the PRC near abroad as a counter to PRC. Its actions are fairly limited in that regard. How long it will remain so is entirely dependent up on the PRC and the direction it will take. If it seeks to accommodate India then I believe that it will have secured its entire western flank. But if not then it leaves it self open to the challenge from India that may not be controlled by PRC alone.

In the light of the third point that I have made. In the past I have called the actions of CPC and PRC foolish. I would like to re-iterate my position again. That by accommodating the aspirations and needs of India the PRC can make its own life tremendously easy. But it is not doing so. For reasons best known to it. That IMO will be its undoing, as it will not be strong enough to control all the nations on its periphery. It needs to improve its relationship with India, Japan, Vietnam etc.

JMT

[naren]

1.If the Indian military posture is robust then the PRC will think twice about trying to attack India as it will cause a massive loss of face it the Military objectives set by PRC are not met.

No worries for CCP. They will follow in the footsteps of the great Chairman and self-flagellate with another Cultural Revolution to cover up for incompetence. Good news for Mother Earth. Less pollution - atmosphere and... finished goods wise

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 05, 2010
By Guy Faulconbridge
Russian navy boss warns of China's race for Arctic: Reuters Africa

MOSCOW, Oct 10 (Reuters) - Russia will increase naval patrols in the Arctic Ocean to defend its interests against nations such as China seeking a share of the area's mineral wealth, the navy commander was quoted as saying on Monday.

Arctic nations such as Canada, Russia, Norway, the United States and Denmark are trying to file territorial claims over the oil, gas and precious metal reserves under the Arctic sea bed that may become accessible as the ice cap shrinks.

But in a rare public warning about China from Russia's top military brass, Admiral Vladimir Vysotsky warned that China had already joined the scramble for a piece of "the Arctic pie".

"We are observing the penetration of a host of states which... are advancing their interests very intensively, in every possible way, in particular China," Vysotsky was quoted as saying by Russian news agencies.

Russia would "not give up a single inch" in the Arctic.

The Stockholm International Peace Research Institute said in a research note in March that China was positioning itself to gain from the prospect of new Arctic shipping routes and the region's untapped resources as the ice cap melts.

Russia believes its entire Arctic territory holds twice as much oil and gas reserves as Saudi Arabia, the world's second biggest oil producer after Russia.

Published on Oct 04, 2010
By Natalia Makarova
China seeks piece of Arctic pie: RT

In an interview with Itar-Tass, the military chief pointed out that from the economic point of view “many wish to get into Arctic as well as the Antarctic regions.”

“We are already witnessing a number of states penetrating [the Arctic region]. Even though they are not members of the Arctic Council, they are actively and in various ways positioning their interests,” Vysotsky said. For instance, he went on, China “has already signed agreements with Norway on the development of the Arctic zone.”

“We understand the economy and infrastructure existing in China. It is becoming a serious companion both from the positive and problematic points of view,” Vysotsky noted.

Currently, Admiral Vysotsky said, there are no established relations in the Arctic region. There are no obvious opponents or allies either.

“But I believe that the most problematic relations may occur with the non-member states of the Arctic Council,” the navy commander added.

According to the navy chief, Russia should build up its position reasonably and not give up an inch on its interests.

Back in August this year, Norwegian Foreign Minister Jonas Gahr Støre praised China’s cooperation in the Arctic and said it should go further in the future. Speaking at the China Institute of International Studies Forum in Beijing, he said that Oslo had observed “China's technological interest and capability in the Arctic.”

“We would like to see how Norwegian and Chinese research groups on the environment come together in highly complementary areas of interest and go deeper, in areas ranging from natural science to geopolitics,” he said, cited Beijing Review. “It is important for Norway to engage with China in dialogue about all issues relevant in the region,” Støre added.

The Asian country has been actively cooperating with its Norwegian partners in the academic research area. It opened its first Arctic research station in 2004, which made China the eighth state to have its own station on Norway's Spitsbergen. The Chinese Zuelong icebreaker is currently on the longest ever expedition the country has ever had in the region.

Welcoming Beijing’s cooperation, Støre earlier suggested that China should be granted Observer’s status at the Arctic Council.

Meanwhile, Beijing is also actively strengthening ties with another player in the region – Iceland. The area of particular interest for China is new sea routes which are opening due to ice melting. Citing Icelandic President Ólafur Ragnar Grímsson interview with Norwegian broadcaster NRK, Barents Observer wrote that over the past two years relations between Iceland and China have picked up pace.

Following the 2008 financial crisis, when the banks collapsed in Iceland, “we faced a situation, where there was no positive helping hand coming either from Europe or the United States, and I and the government decided to approach the government of China […] to see if China could show some friendship in these times of difficulties,” Grimsson said. He added that the bilateral talks between the leaderships of the two countries indicated that China is keen “to cooperate with Iceland and the other countries in the Arctic region on what is happening in the Arctic and the northern regions and also of what are the implications of the northern sea routes opening up over the next few decades,” the president is quoted as telling NRK.

So China is trying for a shipping route through the Barent Sea all the way to Iceland and on to Europe, bypassing Malacca Straits completely. China already has Iceland in its pocket.

That is how far China is thinking now.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 05 2010
by Guy Rundle
China’s foot in the EU door makes everyone nervous: crikey

The government of Greece is in talks with the Chinese government, in the hope that the latter will buy up a large amount of Greece’s debt, thus staving off the possibility of default. The announcement has come at the end of a three-day visit to Greece by Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao. Jiabao also announced China would not “abandon Europe” and would retain its holdings of eurobonds.

But he also pushed for the EU to recognise China as a free-market economy, a move that would release restrictions on exports of high-tech to China, and also give the EU less scope for protectionist measures against Chinese imports.

The Chinese offer is not exactly a freebie — one thing the Chinese are very interested in is the Greek government’s assets sell-off. Since the sell-off has to be done as a condition of the earlier EU bailout, prices are at rock bottom and include a significant number of harbour facilities.

The EU will put a brave face on this — Jiabao is also visiting Brussels to speak to the Union as a whole — but the sudden expansion of China in a volatile corner of the Mediterranean will make everyone nervous. The move points to a contradiction at the heart of the “uncompleted” European Union — that it is still a collection of sovereign states that can make deals with anyone it likes.

So China is buying much of the debt of heavily indebted economies in Europe, and through them gaining a beachhead in the strategic and economic spheres of EU decision-making.

Watch out for these countries to support China in any EU and international forum, where China's national interests are at stake.

China is slowly but steadily undermining the strategic autonomy of various powers.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 05, 2010
By Brahma Chellaney
Why China isn't fit to lead Asia: Globe & Mail (Canada)

Against that background, China’s increasingly assertive territorial and maritime claims threaten Asian peace and stability. In fact, the largest piece of real estate China covets is not in the South or East China Seas but in India: Arunachal Pradesh is almost three times larger than Taiwan.

Respect for boundaries is a prerequisite to peace and stability on any continent. Europe has built its peace on that principle, with a number of European states learning to live with borders they don’t like. But the Chinese Communist Party still harps on old grievances to reinforce its claim to legitimacy and monopolize power – that only it can fully restore China’s “dignity” after a century of humiliation at the hands of foreign powers.

And through its refusal to accept the territorial status quo, Beijing highlights the futility of political negotiations. Whether it’s Arunachal Pradesh or Taiwan or the Senkaku Islands or even the Spratlys, China is dangling the threat of force to assert its claims. In doing so, it’s helping to reinforce the spectre of a threatening China. By picking territorial fights with its neighbours, Beijing is also threatening Asia’s economic renaissance. More important, China is showing that it isn’t a credible candidate to lead Asia.

It’s important for other Asian states and the U.S. – a “resident power” in Asia, in the words of Defence Secretary Robert Gates – to convey a clear message to Beijing: After six long decades, China’s redrawing of frontiers must end.

The comments on the article are all pro-Chinese.

[RajeshA]

Published on Oct 04, 2010
By Jayanth Jacob
Destination Africa for India, Japan: Hindustan Times

The first meeting of the India-Japan dialogue on Africa to be held in Tokyo on Tuesday and Wednesday will kick off the countries’ effort to synchronise strategies in that continent. While China has a lead in Africa, both Tokyo and New Delhi have been devising ways to leverage their presence there.

The Indian team going to the meet will be headed by joint secretary in-charge of Africa in the Ministry of External Affairs Gurjit Singh. The idea was first discussed when Japanese foreign Minister Katsuya Okada visited India in August this year.

But India and Japan have reservations over China’s mission Africa. India and Japan import almost most of their crude requirement from the Middle East while China imports 32 per cent of its oil from Africa, and more than 60 per cent of Chinese direct investment in the continent goes to oil-producing nations such as Angola and Nigeria.

Apart from the huge investments in oil sectors and mines, China has invested $10b in concessional loans over the next three years along with other measures aimed at strengthening African-Chinese ties.

India has pledged $5.4 billion in the next five years, and will provide preferential market access for exports from all 50 least developed countries, including 34 from Africa.

Japan had said it would double its aid to Africa by 2012, including $4 billion in soft, flexible loans for infrastructure projects. It will also give $2.5 billion fund to boost private investment through the Japan Bank for International Cooperation.

It seems Indo-Japanese relations are about to enter a period of active synergy. There is no arguing that the loss of status as Asia's biggest economy and recent harassment of Japan on the release of the trawler captain, is helping Japan see the world in new light, and a need to look for credible allies in Asia.