PAK-FA and FGFA Thread

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Oct 2010 06:51

The India defence link points to $6B, and ToI is toying with $25B. BTW, why all these projections so early!!. The caution is more important here since PAKFA has 100% chance to be with pilaf perhaps with soy sauce.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 05 Oct 2010 07:22

will FGFA totally different from PAKFA ?

Sumeet · Post by **Sumeet** » 05 Oct 2010 07:45

6 billion is R&D cost representing India's share. Another 6 billion will come from Russia.

250 X 100 million (per FGFA) = 25 billion procurement cost for 250 PAK-FA/FGFA.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 05 Oct 2010 07:58

SaiK wrote:The India defence link points to $6B, and ToI is toying with $25B. BTW, why all these projections so early!!. The caution is more important here since PAKFA has 100% chance to be with pilaf perhaps with soy sauce.

$6B is Indian portion of R&D cost and $20B-$25B is the additional production cost for 200-250 FGFA.
PAK-FA will also have some R&D inputs from India also so it may go Brahmos way as far as export policy may concern..

It looks like a subtle message to Russian that $40-50B order has already/will go with them and hence should not expect much for the MRCA deal.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 05 Oct 2010 18:33

It's what I've been advocating all along,that we give the highest priority and funding to the 5th-gen fighter,which will be the mainstay of the IAF for the next two decades.It's what we also need,qualitative supremacy over the Sino-Pak warbirds which are appearing with increasing levels of tech that have breached 4+ gen.std.The LCA and MMRCA are required to make up the numbers and replace older aircraft being upgraded.Until the 5th-gen fighter appears the air dominance role will be performed by our large fleet of Flankers.300+ Flankers,200-250 5th-gen fighters.150+ MMRCAs,120+ LCAs,and a motley mix of upgraded MIG-29s ,Mirages,Jags,-M-27s et al,to be replaced by the MCA and UCAVs (?) should serve us well.

JVKrishnan · Post by **JVKrishnan** » 05 Oct 2010 19:34

dinesha wrote:
SaiK wrote:The India defence link points to $6B, and ToI is toying with $25B. BTW, why all these projections so early!!. The caution is more important here since PAKFA has 100% chance to be with pilaf perhaps with soy sauce.
$6B is Indian portion of R&D cost and $20B-$25B is the additional production cost for 200-250 FGFA.
PAK-FA will also have some R&D inputs from India also so it may go Brahmos way as far as export policy may concern..

It looks like a subtle message to Russian that $40-50B order has already/will go with them and hence should not expect much for the MRCA deal.

$40-50 B?? don't you think it's too much?

I see a reason why we are desgning & manufacturing 2 seat (fgfa) and they are doing the 1 seat (pak fa)! In other words, we can see each side controlling what they want to build for their domestic needs/capability.

India ----> 200+ fgfa + 50 pakfa

Russia ----> 50 fgfa + 200+ pakfa

I do believe Migs & teens are out of mrca and it is going to be EF Typhoon or Rafale now! Now India gets to arm twist France

. A decision will be made only after GE signs the actual commercial contract(mid 2011)for LCA engine.

venkat_r · Post by **venkat_r** » 05 Oct 2010 21:11

At this point it is very tough to see who else can win it other than the Euro. Raphale has only an outside chance. It is for the typhoon's to lose, unless they quoted an arm and a leg and are not willing to come down on the price.

vic · Post by **vic** » 05 Oct 2010 21:26

Chief talks about only 100 AMCA, Wonder why? AMCA already going the LCA way??

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 06 Oct 2010 01:05

kmc_chacko wrote:will FGFA totally different from PAKFA ?

No not totally different. However, it will be a twin seater (unlike the single seater PAKFA), and it will have more composites, different avionics and different EW suites.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Oct 2010 14:14

If this is a halal admins can remove it but some info on FGFA from HAL Clairman Interview to Force

What is meant by FGFA’s preliminary design contract being under government approval? Hasn’t the design been frozen by the Russians?

The Russians have already completed 20 flights of their version of FGFA. By government approval we mean the approval to commence the project and the first step would be to sign the Preliminary Design Contract. The exact definition of the scope of activities in the programme and crystallisation of costs and time schedules are expected to take place during the Preliminary Design Phase which is planned to be completed in 18 months. At present, the aircraft has not been frozen into its final configuration.

The Indian Air Force will have certain requirements of its own which will be put across to the Russians and they in turn will share all the design parameters with us that have been done so far. Once the IAF-specific requirements have been spelt out, they will be considered and dovetailed into the preliminary design; it would then be frozen and feasibility studies would be done and the final configuration of FGFA will be established through development flights.

Let me emphasise at this point, the understanding is that all aspects of the FGFA design will be shared by the Russians. I would like to point out that we have never done a programme of this magnitude before. The Russians hope to develop their aircraft by 2015 and after that our (IAF) special requirements will be met for the Indian FGFA which is planned for induction from 2018.

What will be the high-point of FGFA?

The ultimate attribute of FGFA would be its stealth capability. In addition, it will feature supersonic cruise, ultra-manoeuvrability, highly integrated avionics suite, internal carriage of weapons, network centric warfare capabilities etc.

Considering that Su-30MKI is being talked off as fourth generation plus aircraft, how different will FGFA be from this?

FGFA will be a much superior aircraft when compared to the Su-30 MKI. Su-30 aircraft does not have stealth feature and the other fifth generation capabilities as mentioned earlier. FGFA will be able to fire the latest Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missiles. I must point out that we will have a significant contribution to make in the FGFA programme. For example, there are six indigenous avionics systems in Su-30MKI which incidentally have also been accepted by the Algerian Air Force on their Su-30 aircraft. These systems will also be there in the FGFA. We are hopeful to contribute in the area of composites as well.

How sure are we that the Russians indeed have the capability of producing the FGFA, after all, this will be the second FGFA in the world after the US’ Raptor programme?

The Raptor of the US is a reality while the Russian FGFA is still in the preliminary stages. The other FGFA which is under development by the US and eight participating countries is the Joint Strike Fighter (F-35). We have to understand two aspects about the Indo-Russian FGFA programme. First, its development cost will be much lower than the Raptor and second, US is unlikely to share its fifth generation aircraft technology with other countries. In this scenario, the joint Indo-Russia FGFA is the best option available to us.

When do you expect the FGFA preliminary design contract to be signed and who will be the parties involved?

The FGFA preliminary design contract should be signed by the end of this year. From their side, the signatories will be Rosoboronexport and Sukhoi Design Bureau and from our side it will be HAL.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 06 Oct 2010 17:00

I am concerned at the billions here when many of the Russian scientists are actually inventing graphene out in Manchester and moving towards western countries.

Why can't we get them over here for a few millions?, and perhaps reduce the billions we may have to.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 06 Oct 2010 18:05

SaiK wrote:I am concerned at the billions here when many of the Russian scientists are actually inventing graphene out in Manchester and moving towards western countries.

Why can't we get them over here for a few millions?, and perhaps reduce the billions we may have to.

You must be kidding. There would be a revolt in the IITs, DRDO. Equal pay strikes and dharnas galore.

Indian universities and research establishments are not exactly 'open' to big money for firangs.

kmc_chacko · Post by **kmc_chacko** » 06 Oct 2010 19:47

Asit P wrote:
kmc_chacko wrote:will FGFA totally different from PAKFA ?
No not totally different. However, it will be a twin seater (unlike the single seater PAKFA), and it will have more composites, different avionics and different EW suites.

Actually I thought we will buy appox 50+ single seater & 200+ twin seater PAKFA and FGFA was refereed to MCA

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 07 Oct 2010 13:14

India to buy 250-300 fighter jets from Russia: Antony
AFP, Oct 7, 2010, 12.51pm IST
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 705406.cms

NEW DELHI: India has agreed to buy 250 to 300 advanced stealth fighter jets from Russia, Defence minister AK Antony said Thursday, announcing a deal that could be worth up to 30 billion dollars.

Antony told a press conference with his counterpart Anatoly Serdyukov that the countries had agreed that Russia would supply the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) as well as 45 transport planes.

"India will receive 250-300 most advanced FGFAs," Antony said. "These are the two major projects for the next ten years which will be a shining example of Indian-Russian cooperation."

Experts say each FGFA is worth up to 100 million dollars.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 07 Oct 2010 13:21

LIVEFIST: "All Roadblocks Removed, 5th Gen Fighter Agreement Soon": Defence Minister

P Chitkara · Post by **P Chitkara** » 07 Oct 2010 15:00

So, as per the latest reports the figure has increased to 250-300 from earlier 200-250. Sounds interesting.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 07 Oct 2010 15:50

Indian universities and research establishments are not exactly 'open' to big money for firangs.

They'll come in as consultants and hence not be bound by govt payscales for civil servants. IMHO, there's tremendous merit in the argument that spending millions on phoren human capital is better ROI than spending billions on phoren hardware and tech.

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 07 Oct 2010 15:54

vic wrote:Chief talks about only 100 AMCA, Wonder why? AMCA already going the LCA way??

Lack of confidence in indeginous capabilites me thinks.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 07 Oct 2010 16:02

Antony says russia will supply 25-300 FGFA , but wasnt we supposed to co-develope it?

Willy · Post by **Willy** » 07 Oct 2010 16:04

krishnan wrote:Antony says russia will supply 25-300 FGFA , but wasnt we supposed to co-develope it?

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 07 Oct 2010 16:12

Shiv Aroor reports
All Roadblocks Removed, 5th Gen Fighter Agreement Soon: Defence Minister

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Oct 2010 19:19

Some new pictures of old flights released by KNAAPO:
PAK-FA on reheat
Movable LERX down
T-50 side close up
The pictures (especially the second one) are pretty unique among PAK-FA pics.
Also, what is the unpainted fish gill like thing in the third pic? Air intakes to cool systems?

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 07 Oct 2010 19:37

Gaur, I hope you are not referring to the gun? (there is one in a similar location on MKI).

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 07 Oct 2010 19:37

shukla wrote:Shiv Aroor reports..

Err.. its a Ministry of Defence press release..

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=66241

India, Russia Inch Closer to Seal Fighter, Transport Aircraft Deal
Deals to be a Shining Example of Defence Cooperation, says Antony
18:2 IST
The Tenth Meeting of the India-Russia Inter-Governmental Commission on Military Technical Cooperation (IRIGC-MTC) was held here today. The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony and the Russian Defence Minister Mr. AE Serdyukov headed the respective delegations. The Indian delegation included Defence Secretary Shri Pradeep Kumar, Secretary (Defence Production) Shri RK Singh, Shri VK Saraswat, Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister and other senior officials of the Ministry of Defence and the Armed Forces. The Russian delegation included representatives from the Russian Ministry of Defence and the Russian Defence Industry.

In his opening remarks at the IRIGC-MTC meeting, Shri Antony said that India values the strong and multifaceted friendship with Russia and noted that the defence relationship between both countries is based on convergent and complementary interests and has been mutually beneficial. He also observed that the bilateral defence cooperation with Russia is a comprehensive partnership, in which both countries have moved beyond the buyer-seller relationship and are collaborating in joint R&D and production of defence equipments and systems.

The Commission took note of the progress on several major projects since its last meeting, which was held in Moscow in October 2009. Both sides expressed satisfaction at the conclusion of the Shareholders Agreement for formation of a Joint Venture Company for the development and production of the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA). Further, both sides agreed to expedite modalities for the proposed project for the joint design, development and production of the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA).

“India hopes to get 45 MTA and also finalize the FGFA, … all the issues we have discussed and solved between our two countries… now it is in the final stages of the Indian government, some technical formalities between the governments is needed and I am sure we will be able to complete very soon…within a few months,” Shri Antony later told a joint press conference. “As per this agreement India will receive approximately between 250-300 most modern FGFA. These two projects are the major achievements of this year and for the next ten years these two projects, MTA and FGFA, will be a shining example of India and Russian defence cooperation,” he added.

“We have very good big plans and we have very serious projects and work before us. And this, as I said, will be a big challenge and we will try to do our best in order to prove that our bilateral cooperation can give us very good practical results,” said Mr. Serdyukov.

The Joint Commission also reviewed the status of several other ongoing and proposed projects, including the licenced production of T-90 Tanks and the establishment of the repair and overhaul facilities for various Russian origin defence equipment in India.

The IRIGC-MTC was established in 2000, with a view to further bilateral defence cooperation between India and Russia. Russia is the only country with which India has such an institutionalized mechanism at the level of the Defence Ministers of both sides, which highlights the strength and importance of the bilateral defence relationship. The Commission is supported by two Working groups – on Military Technical Cooperation and Shipbuilding, Aviation and Land Systems respectively and seven sub-groups.

The scope for military technical cooperation between both countries is defined through an umbrella inter-Governmental agreement; and Agreement on a long term programme for military and technical cooperation for the period 2011-2020 was signed during the visit of the Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh to Russia in December last year.

Prior to the IRIGC meeting today, both Defence Ministers also held separate discussions on various issues of regional and global security. Both Ministers agreed on the need to enhance interactions between the Armed Forces of both countries. Noting that a joint exercise between the Armies of both sides is due to be held in India this month, both Ministers also decided that a joint exercise between the Armed Forces would be held in Russia in 2011. The Russian Defence Minister also stated that the Chief of Defence Forces of Russia would visit India in November this year and that the Russian Navy Chief would visit in January 2011.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 07 Oct 2010 19:47

prahaar wrote:Gaur, I hope you are not referring to the gun? (there is one in a similar location on MKI).

Yes, thats it.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 08 Oct 2010 07:29

I notice one thing with all the new pictures of the PAK-FA ... When the front view is presented, the intakes are covered.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2010 07:52

Chinese have recently passed legislation for tech companies to develop advanced engineering products homegrown by 2050. Mainly making sure by 2050 all copyrights are copied (may be investments for copying industries will double up), by 2050 deadline for it become the sole super power.

These words may not be exact, but true. I was just hearing the public radio. We can have copyright laws, but there is no law for thieves. PAKFA (along with Raptor and JSF

) will be copied by china.

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 08 Oct 2010 11:00

India set to buy around 300 5th generation fighters from Russia
India is planning to buy up to 300 co-produced fifth-generation fighters and 45 utility transports from Russia, the Indian defense minister said on Thursday.
"Over the next decade, Russian-Indian military cooperation will focus on two projects: a utility transport and a fifth-generation fighter," said Russian Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov, who is on a two-day visit to India.
The jointly-produced fifth generation fighter will not be a copy of the existing Sukhoi T-50 prototype ordered for the Russian Air Force, but will be a separate creation, a high-profile source in the Russian delegation in New Delhi said.
The countries are planning to unveil a one-seater and a two-seater version of the fighter by 2015-2016.
The costs are planned to be shared by the two states fifty-fifty.
The Times of India earlier said India may invest over $25 billion on buying fifth-generation fighters for its Air Force.

NEW DELHI, October 7 (RIA Novosti)

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 08 Oct 2010 12:16

I typed in what I know and speculate.

Indo-Russian FGFA programme : Current status and speculations

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Oct 2010 12:46

It appears that we might actually operate both single and two-seat versions of the PAK-FA,asit woud be sensible to fly the single-seater,already flying in prototype form,which will come out a couple of years before the two-seat version for the IAF.This could assist in formulating the parameters for the two-seater with service experience of the former.

This is a huge deal,as big and even more important than even the SU-30MKI deal,as the technology that will be used in this programme appears to overlap the AMCA and perhaps even the later LCA Mk-2 versions.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Oct 2010 16:01

No body talks about stealth and RCS anymore which are still questions marks for pakfa. And people are ready to jump to compare raptor, let alone electronics and advanced multi-role capable lpi-aesa system.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 08 Oct 2010 17:00

SaiK wrote:No body talks about stealth and RCS anymore which are still questions marks for pakfa. And people are ready to jump to compare raptor, let alone electronics and advanced multi-role capable lpi-aesa system.

What do you want to talk about stealth of T-50? How is it full of question marks? Let me guess. Is it the same old thing about how it "doesn't look stealthy" to some people? Or is it about engine fans being visible through inlets(which could very well be radar blockers which were experimented with using Su-27 to great success)? Or is it the circular nozzles of an "intermediate" engine? All this and much more has been discussed in much detail on BR and elsewhere.
People fail to realize that the a/c is still in development and not a finished product. Not to mention that much is not known about it (as with other 5th gen a/cs).
But what little "is" known is very promising to say the least.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 08 Oct 2010 18:58

SaiK wrote:No body talks about stealth and RCS anymore which are still questions marks for pakfa. And people are ready to jump to compare raptor, let alone electronics and advanced multi-role capable lpi-aesa system.

ya, the same as no one talks of real RCS figures of raptor, its avionics are not shared nor are details of it LPI AESA system...
Except some 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000 figures often quoted by hard core fans in F16.net...

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Oct 2010 06:14

Russia Submits Draft Of FGFA Contract To India
Aviation Week

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Oct 2010 06:21

Decks Cleared for Top Indo-Russia Deal
Daily News & Analysis

Former Air Chief FH Major told DNA, “By the time these aircraft start coming in, older ones would be ready for a phase-out, so the strength will remain the same.”

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Oct 2010 06:24

India to Buy 250-300 Fighter Jets From Russia
Defense News

Indian Defence Production Secretary R.K. Singh said the costing would be worked out in stages.

"At present a 300-million dollar preliminary design contract for the FGFA program is currently under the (Indian) government's consideration," Singh told AFP.

The draft agreement is likely to be signed during a trip to India by President Dmitry Medvedev in December.

vic · Post by **vic** » 09 Oct 2010 12:31

FGFA 300 plane deal is not very extraordinary and is comparable to Su-30MKI deal. We are looking at around 10+40+140+40+42+(strategic 40?) = 312 Su-30MKI already. I think that we should create infrastructure and manufacturing base for around 500 PAKFA, as otherwise we will keep on doing piece meal imports without building full scale horizontal & vertical sustainble manufacturing base which may have benefit for other programmes also. I hope we will have very high indigenous content and no strings unlike MKI programme. The average indigenous content across 312 MKI will not be even 20% of components and I hope we do way better with PAKFA. I hope PAKFA is not another "take India to cleaners deal" like T-90, scorps, Gorky or fake indigenization like ARV or Scorps

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Oct 2010 15:52

vic,
Yes, the FGFA deal seems to be comparable to MKI deal in numbers. But IMO, the MKI deal itself is extraordinary. I never expected IAF to field so many heavy twin engine a/cs in such numbers. Maintaining such a/cs is a big issue. Add to that the fact that stealth itself comes with its own share of enormous maintenance issues, IMO 300 seems to be an excellent no for FGFA. Note that the high end heavy fighters form the peak of the pyramid. It is the low end fighters (read tejas) which are supposed to make up the numbers. Also, the 250-300 seems to be the initial projections. It is not written in stone and the number may change depending upon threat perception and the need of IAF (just like MKI).

As for your concern regarding Indian participation. According to Ajai Shukla and other media reports, the Indian share is supposed to be 25%. This includes design changes in FGFA, composites, mission computer, navigation system and other avionics. There were some more things but I do not remember at present.

I know. Not nearly enough to make FGFA a no strings attached program. But it is the only program where we can obtain a top of the line 5th gen a/c (with strings or not). Also, lets face it, no one can really expect that India will be able to develop the equivalents of AL-41, NIIP AESA or OLS-50.

This is why I think we need to start development of MCA at the earliest. MCA will hopefully fill the mid range (both cost and capability) gap for IAF in the future.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 09 Oct 2010 18:10

Russia Submits Draft Of FGFA Contract To India

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Oct 2010 22:26

India chooses Russian prototype for its fifth generation aircraft