Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 03, 2010

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 11 Oct 2010 04:56

VinodTK wrote:Bugti puts Rs 1bn on Pervez head

Islamabad, Oct. 10: The son of Baloch nationalist leader Nawab Akbar Bugti, who was killed during Mr Pervez Musharraf’s regime, has offered a bounty of Rs 1 billion and 1,000 acres of land to any person who beheads the former military ruler.

Mr Talal Bugti, president of the Jamhoori Watan party, whose father Nawaz Akbar Bugti was killed on the orders of Mr Musharraf in an operation, said the former military ruler deserves to be beheaded.

“I give the status of wajib-ul-qatl (fit to be killed) to Musharraf. He ended a democratic government elected with a large mandate in 1999 and he deserves the death sentence according to Article 6 (of the Constitution which relates to high treason). Therefore, he is wajib-ul-qatl,” said Bugti.
From Time Of India: Bugti's son offers Rs 1 billion bounty for Mushrraf's head

With that kind of award on his head chances of Mush returing to Pak-e-watan is pretty slim as there would be 180 million people going after his head!

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 11 Oct 2010 05:51

sunnyP wrote:
Altair wrote:Questions
When Mush-a-rogue said LeT are freedom fighters and have bollywood following in Pak.Is he not hinting at another attack on India while simultaneously justifying mumbai massacre? Are we nuts not to arrest this piece of dung? Why is that women smirking when he is justifying murder
Disgusting isn't it.

Maroof Raza on Times Now also interviewed Musharraf........his body language and tone were more hostile as Raza pinned him down on the Baloch resistance, the business ventures of the PA, etc. The lifelong liar kept insisting that the Indian Army was focused on Pakistan but Maroof Raza refused to yield, flatly saying that the posture was more like 60:40 on the western and eastern borders.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 11 Oct 2010 08:10

could the mushrador be america's next choice as the president of the pakistan? why is the media interviewing him suddenly? his life was fairly low key in london so far?

is this the next spin of the revolving chairs?

jash_p · Post by **jash_p** » 11 Oct 2010 08:17

Quake hits Northern Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: A moderate 5.1-magnitude earthquake shook northwest Pakistan on Monday, US geologists said, but there were no immediate reports of serious damage or deaths.

The quake struck at 2:44 am (2144 on Sunday GMT), 40 kilometres (25 miles) northwest of the capital Islamabad, at a depth of ... View Details

Pakis got another opportunity to Milk billions. Just show few huts and tin roof collapse, and few actors to lie down in front of camera with make up injury shot and presto ask for Billions.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 11 Oct 2010 08:21

Musharraf has long hinted a return. His real advantage is that he is one of the few people who has friends both in America and in the PA.

His problem is that there are a lot Pakistanis outside the PA who utterly hate him - the Deobandi jihadis and the Baluchis in particular for the number of their people he's killed. The Ziaists/Islamic nationalists cant stand him either, seeing him as a sellout to the Americans.

He also made a lot of enemies in Pakjab over time, but he could win back a lot of that support with the right alliances. His chances will get much better if something were to happen to Nawaz Sharif.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 11 Oct 2010 08:27

Singha wrote:could the mushrador be america's next choice as the president of the pakistan? why is the media interviewing him suddenly? his life was fairly low key in london so far?

is this the next spin of the revolving chairs?

Mushrador was America's doggie in the aftermath of 9/11, and subsequently during two wars. America would ONLY go for Mush if they are serious about Iran. "War time allies" if i may say.
JMT

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2010 08:30

Nandu wrote:New Yorker review of Woodward's book.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/comment/2 ... _talk_coll

As said on this forum. This is a good book, but has little direct info about India and is rarely mentioned; however, some interesting tid-bits as I'm reading through it about US Af-Pak policy. Everyone in unkil's power structure knows full well the problem is TSP or more specifically the TSPA. No one is willing to address this directly, not Patraeus or Ombaba. The one thing that is mentioned is that after 9/11, unkil setup contingency plans that should something like that happen again and it originates from TSP, then US military will strike 150 high value terrorist targets within TSP and keep an eye on TSP nook nanga movement. The problem is that unkil's $50 billion/year intel agencies are clueless and Patraeus in late 2008/2009 setup a parallel CENTCOM intel agency outside of existing ones within the military. Its amazing there are 10 separate agencies of unkil that are fighting their own version of the war. These geniuses would be better to spend some time reading this thread, BENIS and BRF in general to get a better idea.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 11 Oct 2010 08:32

jash_p wrote:
Quake hits Northern Pakistan
ISLAMABAD: A moderate 5.1-magnitude earthquake shook northwest Pakistan on Monday, US geologists said, but there were no immediate reports of serious damage or deaths.

The quake struck at 2:44 am (2144 on Sunday GMT), 40 kilometres (25 miles) northwest of the capital Islamabad, at a depth of ... View Details
Pakis got another opportunity to Milk billions. Just show few huts and tin roof collapse, and few actors to lie down in front of camera with make up injury shot and presto ask for Billions.

Why actors? Just shoot up some Shias in PoK and problem solved.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 11 Oct 2010 08:40

Why shoot? Line them up and throw boulders on them. Will be more realistic.

amit · Post by **amit** » 11 Oct 2010 10:23

Jammu & Kashmir's future with India: Deoband

Perhaps the above is more appropriate for the J&K thread and it would be interesting note how the "Rats in a Hurry" react to JuD's statement.

However, the reason I'm posting this here is because this caught my eye:

Asked about the prospect of resolution of the Kashmir issue, he said, "The country is in a reconciliatory mood, be it on J&K or Ayodhya. So, reconciliation within the Indian Constitution is the way out. An overwhelming section of Kashmiris want it, too. Which stupid person would want to go with Pakistan?"

I'm not too sure but this is perhaps the first time that a body like JuD (as opposed to the usual liberals) said something like this?

Should cause major takleef?

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 11 Oct 2010 10:25

Which stupid person would want to go with Pakistan?

Which may be a reason to hold a referendum now.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 11 Oct 2010 10:41

Singha wrote:could the mushrador be america's next choice as the president of the pakistan? why is the media interviewing him suddenly? his life was fairly low key in london so far?

is this the next spin of the revolving chairs?

Sure looks like something nasty is cooking. The DDM has been mobilised in advance. omar abdullah's statement is not as innocent or ham handed as it seems.

Things may become clearer after obama's visit.

vic · Post by **vic** » 11 Oct 2010 11:23

I think that US is trying to put pressure on India through tainted English Media. The problem (for him) is that readership of local language newspaper is 10 times the English dailies/media. Any changes in J&K will have to go through constitutional changes in Parliament and then get approval by majority of states followed by challenges in SC. I dont see it happening without kangress losing elections thoroughly. Hence, there will be massive song and dance till dec and then everybody will forget about it except at BRF where everything will be analysed till death and MMS will be declared traiter. We are not China YET, so we need to roll with blows. 10-14% annual growth till 2020 and then we will get ready for talks.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Oct 2010 13:04

Chopping up India into small little pieces is the wet-dream of the West,that is the rogue elements within western establishments,those who want to "contain" India,etc.,etc.Right from Independence,the idea was that India would have Hyderabad,Travancore and J&K as independent entities within the new Indian union,entities which with western infleunce would be enough to "contain" India on three sides of the compass,with the Portugese in Goa being the fourth.We well know of the insidious attempts to bring about this scenario whcih was foiled in the main by Patel and Nehru.Having two halves of Pak also hemming in India both on the east and west,with little Ceylon amenable-or so they thought,remaining a WOG bastion,India would be encircled with states friendly to the west in the post WW2 scenario.We now know from released western documents that the Soviet threat was a gigantic fraud,Stalin had no idea at all of "conquering" Europe,which enabled the US to begin the Cold War,a means of "containing" Russia and its republics in the SU.

However,using Pak as a "chisel",the attempt to prise away J&K by fomenting internal insurgency has been a plot with two godfathers,the Paki establishment,still burning with a desire to extract revenge for '71 and Bangaldesh-this was amply revealed in the interviews with Mush-a-rat and the attempts of the west who have long been advocating that the GOI succumb to the Hurriyat's wishes.The "bad cop" is Pak ,which uses the gun and the "good cop" is the west-US mainly,which wants the "soft option" of the Hurriyat to do their needful later on when we succumb to pressure from all sides.It is on record that the US wanted an independent J&K as a base,so that they could launch their ops into China and the Islamic republics of the SU.

Now the interesting fact to emerge from Gen.Bandicoot's interviews is the so-called failed "deal" that he and ABV almost achieved.Some time ago,I met a prominent Paki man in the know,who told me that the verminous mastermind of Kargil had almost achieved his goal at Agra.The "commando" revealed as much in the interview,that he wanted "an open border",making the LOC "nonexistant" between POK and IHK (Indian Held Kashmir as the pakis/army call it),where Pak would have a say in the governing of the Valley! he said that india was finding it difficult to "make adjustments" also on the border.Thus the verminous scoundrel wanted to achieve across the table-with western pressure upon India,what Pak has always failed to achieve on the battlefield.This was one of his main aims when he launched Kargil,to get the west to sit on India's head and compromise on Kashmir.

Now if the LOC was made "open",allowing the Kashmiris to move across it unhindered,it stands to reason that both India and Pak would or could be equal trustees of whatever parts they held (POK and J&K),each looking after security of their two parts as they have done so for decades.But what Mush-a-rat wanted was for India to give up its right to govern the valley exclusively,something that no Indian leader can ever accept as it would be treason of the highest order.In rality,once the Pakis got their nose,sorry...their foot, into the Valley,it would only be a matter of time before the Valley slipped into Paki pockets!

We now have thanks to Mush-a-rat,conclusive evdience if that was ever needed,that to the Paki military,they will never stop trying to prise away J&K from India using any means,especially terror which they say is a legitimate tool to use.In such a situation,it is now incumbent upon the GOI/MEA to lobby foreign govts. to stop all arms sales to Pak which only uses these arms to wage war against India,overtly and covertly.The US especially MUST be told that their foreign policy in the region is immoral,immature and irresponsible,arming Pak to the teeth and expecting them to "play peace" with India! They hope to achieve this with India's weakest ever PM at the helm of India's fioriegn policy,the man who apologetically brought in Baluchistan into the "equation",as if there had to be a trade-off between Indian and Paki terrorism! This expose of the Paki army's everlasting intent,should be a wake-up call for the defence establishment and the PMO which should abandon all "talk of talks" and treat pak as it dseserves as a rogue state that should be "quarantined" diplomatically and militarily.Any country that acts otherwise with Pak,will be trated by India as my enemy's friend and thus by default, our enemy.

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 11 Oct 2010 13:33

Philip wrote: We now have thanks to Mush-a-rat,conclusive vdience if that was ever needed,that to the Paki military,they will never stop trying to prise away J&K from India using any means,even terron which they say is a legitimate tool to use.In such a situation,it is now incumbent upon the GOI/MEA to lobby foreign govts. to stop alla rms sales to Pak whcih only uses these arms to age war against India,overtly and covertly.The US especially MUST be told that their foreign policy in the region is immoral,immature and irresponsible,arming Pak to the teeth and expecting them to "play peace" with India! This expose of the Paki army's everlasting intent,should be a wake-up call for the defence establishment and the PMO which should abandon all "talk of talks" and treat pak as it dseserves as a rogue state that should be "quarantined" diplomatically and militarily.Any country that acts otherwise with Pak,will be trated by India as my enemy's friend and thus by default, our enemy.

This can be achieved by doing quiet a few things:
1. The biggest problem for India is it does not have proper leverage wrt Pakistan.
Expand explosively in Asia & Asia pacific region,become a "strategic threat" to US, China.
Shred the soft power attitude and deploy covert forces inside Northern Areas: Gilgit Baltistan
India must have the economic muscle to arm twist countries like Nepal,Bangladesh,Sri lanka and demonstrate it couple of times.
Deploy military bases in these nations. If US has to "get things done" in these countries it must depend on India rather than China.
Once we reach a bargaining position for US goals in the region ,Pakistan will be dropped like a hot potato.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 11 Oct 2010 19:32

Which stupid person would want to go with Pakistan?

Which may be a reason to hold a referendum now.

Beauty of referendum is one can contest the result if it does not fits to one's requirements. That what Baki's are going to do. You want to do referendum then you have to remove all non kashmiri bakistani from POK and bring back all pundits back to velly...............any taker........not many.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Oct 2010 20:13

Please post in Af-pak thread only. No need to post everywhere. Will reply there.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Oct 2010 21:08

To get a rather quick glimpse into the colonial arrogance of US in demanding that India compromise its interests, so American interests in AfPak can be secured, read this which has quotes from Christine Fair.

Talking about why the Haqqani network must be defeated and US distate for seeing them in power in Afganisthan

In short, the Haqqani network has a lot of American blood on its hands.

So far so good (never minds that Haqqani network also has Indian blood on his hands). But now, refering to TSP support for these murderous terrorists, what is US position including that of Christine Fair?

So given all this, the logical thing to do might be to focus on the Pakistan-India problem. After all, if you remove Pakistan’s fears of India as a threat, maybe the Pakistanis will stop working against American interests in Afghanistan?

Professor Fair argues that because India is on the ascent, and will be even stronger militarily and economically in 10 years than it is now, the Indian government has no reason to negotiate seriously with Pakistan over the host of issues that bedevil the two adversaries now, when it can throw its weight around much easier later.

So how convenient. It is not required to confront TSP to stop supporting the evil that was the very rationale of waging war in AfPak. Rather, since Amercian interests are so supreme, India must give in to the very same evil that US will will not. "Fix" TSP's problems with India. "Focus" on the "threat" India poses to TSP. The condescension is breathtaking and risible were it not so tragic given the damage such a worldview does to India.

This is where I wonder whose side is MMS on? Since he has such a huge fan following in the west, can he not get their ear and explain to the big white boys responsible for AfPak, that the evil US faces, and the evil India has been confronted with past 60+ years is the same. One cannot "fix" the evil, one cannot "focus" on TSP's paranois visa vi India. The evil must be eliminated, lock, stock, and barrel.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 11 Oct 2010 21:18

do you not think that the west already understands the evil of paquistan?
either we fix this thing on our own or we dont
and why do we always expect others to fix our problems for us?

svenkat · Post by **svenkat** » 11 Oct 2010 21:27

CRS,
What makes you think that goras will fall over their feet to obey the wishes of MMS? Why is MMS the fall guy for weaknesses in Indian polity?
In certain Indian homes,elders remain silent on fractious issues.Think of MMS as a nice person and economist who has been catapulted into the present position.He is not a real leader.He is holding fort,fixing problems with the likes of Pranabda.What stops the main opposition party from leading India to glory.

A paradigm shift has to take place for India to say Fcvk off to its tormenters.Maybe MMS can pull it off by some superhuman will or may be it is beyond him.Others study India as well and their view is cold,clinical and calculating without any of the emotional frills or tear jerks that cloud our vision.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2010 21:37

India has no Pakistan Policy other than take hit, whine, straighten up, not talk, talk, get hit, whine......

Does one really expect anybody else in the world to follow our lead?

As somebody said, the Pakis are the only game in town and until India offers the West something better, nothing's gonna change!

It is upto us to change the playfield and build options and influence other's options!

There is no use blaming the world when we only play saint and mute spectator!

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 11 Oct 2010 22:11

RajeshA wrote: As somebody said, the Pakis are the only game in town and until India offers the West something better, nothing's gonna change!

It is upto us to change the playfield and build options and influence other's options!

We can change the play field if we have guts for another Operation Meghdoot only 100 times bigger. We need to liberate PoK if we have to let our children live in a free and safe India. Either bend over like Pakistan or be a bad boy like Russians in Georgia. Its that simple.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 11 Oct 2010 22:14

RajeshA wrote:India has no Pakistan Policy other than take hit, whine, straighten up, not talk, talk, get hit, whine......
...

RajeshA garu,

India does have a Pakistan Policy. It is to undermine the idea of religious Pakistan, unwind the concept of Pakistan, and undo the reality of Pakistan

Indian actions are to be seen in this angle. GOI behaves as if Pakistan doesn't exist. All terror strikes, whines etc from Paki soil are seen as disgruntled extended-Indian actions

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 11 Oct 2010 22:45

CRamS wrote: So given all this, the logical thing to do might be to focus on the Pakistan-India problem. After all, if you remove Pakistan’s fears of India as a threat, maybe the Pakistanis will stop working against American interests in Afghanistan?

Professor Fair argues that because India is on the ascent, and will be even stronger militarily and economically in 10 years than it is now, the Indian government has no reason to negotiate seriously with Pakistan over the host of issues that bedevil the two adversaries now, when it can throw its weight around much easier later.

After reading Fair's comments (all of them together), I don't see any suggestion that India is being pressured to foot the bill for US stupidity or interests:

1. "So given all this, the logical thing to do might be to focus on the Pakistan-India problem. After all, if you remove Pakistan’s fears of India as a threat, maybe the Pakistanis will stop working against American interests in Afghanistan? . This is the writer's rhetorical question and Helene Cooper answers herself: " Not so fast"

2. Then Fair is quoted: "“It’s unfixable,” said C. Christine Fair, assistant professor at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. “That’s why we’ll be working on this for the next 50 years.” IOW, she's not advocating India be pressured. In fact, in other writings she has (and I will try to find the links) openly stated that LeT/ISI have a broader agenda than Kashmir which is merely a cover for a South Asian Islamic state.

3. "Professor Fair argues that because India is on the ascent, and will be even stronger militarily and economically in 10 years than it is now, the Indian government has no reason to negotiate seriously with Pakistan over the host of issues that bedevil the two adversaries now, when it can throw its weight around much easier later.

“If there was an easy way out of this, someone would have figured it out,” Professor Fair said. “But I don’t think it’s possible to untie this Gordian knot.”

In short, she is saying India will not compromise its interests and there is no point trying to pressure India to do so.

I do believe that Obama and co. have reluctantly come to the conclusion that the central issue is now securing Paki nukes and that working outwards from there to 'stabilize' Pakistan may be the only option left. In fact, Obama is quoted by Woodward as telling Zardari that the US will not arm Pakistan against India. Yes I know that they got a whole lot of harpoons and AIM-9s and so forth but I think that was under the Bush administration and Gates was too quick to approve the wish list.

Anyway, we can argue about that till the end of days. I personally am waiting to see the endgame which is being signaled by increasing drone strikes and the helicopter raid across the border. As crunchtime comes, Obama will lash out against Pakistan and take the war into Waziristan.

BTW, I do recommend everyone read Woodward's book. It is very illuminating indeed. Scary in that it's all about bureaucrats fighting it out with PowerPoint slides. In one presentation, Petraeus has 1000 slide session prepared

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Oct 2010 23:11

Cosmo_R wrote: BTW, I do recommend everyone read Woodward's book. It is very illuminating indeed. Scary in that it's all about bureaucrats fighting it out with PowerPoint slides. In one presentation, Petraeus has 1000 slide session prepared

I urge others not to waste money reading a quintessential Washington insider's BS that was fed to him by his Pentagon/CIA handlers. Give me a break. Read expert comments on BR instead and you will learn more. Woodward has nothing from India's POV; its all US interests. As R-man pointed out, he swallowed the rouge elements did Mumbai sophistry that the CIA slime balls fed him. So much for his illumination.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not India is pressures as you say (in fact it has been, but thats a different matter), but the currency that TSP faces a "threat" from India, India is cause of TSP's recalitracnce has gained firm ground. Furthermore, that TSP has to rely on LET to counter India is also given legitimacy. How much more damage do you want done? With all the arms in TSP's kitty, who do you think will bear the brunt of TSP's machinations after US tucks its tail between its legs and runs away from AfPak? I mean shifting the evil away from TSP and somehow casting India as part of USA's travails in AfPak has not been countered by MMS & his coterie. Its as if they are either willing collaboraters with US in this game, or spineless mute spectators.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 11 Oct 2010 23:35

CRamS wrote:With all the arms in TSP's kitty, who do you think will bear the brunt of TSP's machinations after US tucks its tail between its legs and runs away from AfPak?

It may not be much consolation, but the US can not leave Af-Pak. Not while the global jihad is headquartered there, and it will remain there as long as the PA relies on Pan-Islamic jihad to give "strategic depth" in Afghanistan and a tool against India.

It is possible that as in Iraq the number of US troops in the Pashto-speaking provinces will reduce after the surge, but they cant afford to give up a foothold in Afghanistan (even if the foothold shifts to the north and centre) as long as the bombers, hijackers and shooters are still heading to New York and D.C. from the region.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 11 Oct 2010 23:38

Johann wrote:
It is possible that like Iraq, the number of troops in the Pashto-speaking provinces will reduce after the surge, but they cant afford to give up a foothold in Afghanistan (even if the foothold shifts to the north and centre) as long as the human bombs are still heading to New York and D.C. from the region.

And you think TSP won't prevent that from happening as long as LET is outside the ambit of "global Jihad"?

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 11 Oct 2010 23:47

RamaY wrote:
RajeshA wrote:India has no Pakistan Policy other than take hit, whine, straighten up, not talk, talk, get hit, whine.........
India does have a Pakistan Policy. It is to undermine the idea of religious Pakistan, unwind the concept of Pakistan, and undo the reality of Pakistan

So Pakistan is a psionic entity to be fought at an astral plane using the power of meditation!

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 11 Oct 2010 23:51

CRamS wrote:
Johann wrote:
It is possible that like Iraq, the number of troops in the Pashto-speaking provinces will reduce after the surge, but they cant afford to give up a foothold in Afghanistan (even if the foothold shifts to the north and centre) as long as the human bombs are still heading to New York and D.C. from the region.
And you think TSP won't prevent that from happening as long as LET is outside the ambit of "global Jihad"?

The LeT is part of the global jihad whether or not Pakistan denies it, or some Americans waffle about it. Headley, Brigitte, etc were killers despatched from Lahore.

Today the USG is targeting the Haqqani network not only despite the fact that they are PA clients, but *because* they are its clients.

The LeT is listed as a terrorist organisation in most countries, including the US. The only reason it wasn't put on the UN list along with its chief officers after Mumbai was that the Pakistanis got the Chinese to threaten a veto.

However much professional Paki-soothers may want problems like the LeT to go away they will remain because of Pakistan's reliance on the ideology of the global jihad to mobilise resources and men for its regional ambitions. The LeT is going to bring about the Haqqani/Pakiban/Al Qaeda treatment on itself as well no matter how much the Pakistanis whinge about it.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 12 Oct 2010 00:09

Johann wrote: However much professional Paki-soothers may want problems like the LeT to go away they will remain because of Pakistan's reliance on the ideology of the global jihad to mobilise resources and men for its regional ambitions. The LeT is going to bring about the Haqqani/Pakiban/Al Qaeda treatment on itself as well no matter how much the Pakistanis whinge about it.

If that indeed is on the cards, it would really bring about victory in AfPak. But I am not so optimistic simply because TSP will be left without any teeth, and how will US deal with an India that can stand up to TSP post AfPak? USA wants a balance of power between TSP & India, and without LET to pin India down in a war of attrition, India, as the status quo power, with a friendly Afganisthan, can simply ignore TSP as it stews in its own juice (let alone standing up to TSP). After all India wins by just being India, the status quo power. But does that suit TSP, and by extension US?

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 12 Oct 2010 00:22

I agree with CRamS that western powers and netas have bought into the idea that Mohatarma Fair and TSPA are trying to sell them that Pakis need these tanzeems to get back to the India and so all greviences needs to be addressed aka Kashmir.

But you need to realize that India is a democracy so arm twisting MMS or Kangress will not get you the cake. It need way too much of psy ops to prepare the mangoes to forefit something and not feel they have been at losing end. As some one said needs to pass with 2/3rd majority in parliament (both houses) then the vidhan sabha's etc. If Ayodhya took 50 years after so much proactivity (Kashi & Mathura are not even on radar) imagine how much it would take to convince mangoes to foresake "The heaven on Earth".

Here is one ray of light I see. Pentegon is one arm of unkil that has no India sympathisers and the reason is we do not buy anything from MI Complex that runs the show the C 130 or MRCA then you have a voice / lobby that will go all way to protect its interests. Finally baap bada na bhaiya sabse bada rupaiyya and we are not begging them we are buying them that too after a proper procurement and RFP process.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 12 Oct 2010 00:23

CRS,

I am not optimistic either.

The USG has gone after Al Qaeda since 1998. They've kept it off balance, but the threat remains. The same goes for the Pakiban and the Taliban. I don't think the LeT will be any different. I think we can agree that is because the US will not go after the PA itself. As for why the US is reluctant to openly confront the Pakistani military, I know we will disagree.

In any case we should not fixate on the LeT and its SIMIan friends as Pakistan's only subversive tool against India. What is going on in the Vale of Kashmir is a good example of why bombs are not the only problem.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 12 Oct 2010 00:40

Lahore Police is better than Scotland Yard. Look at their track record in just 9 months (approx 270 days)
574 gangs smashed in 9 months

By Our Correspondent - LAHORE
LAHORE police claimed to have smashed no less than 574 criminals’ gangs{they busted more than 2 gangs per day} and arrested their 1,867 members and seized loot worth Rs 216 million during the nine months of the current year.
As many as 30,000 court absconders and proclaimed offenders were also nabbed{i.e. apprehended more than 100 persons per day.} during the nine months, it was claimed in a handout issued on Sunday. The handout reads: it was disclosed in a special meeting of senior police officers held under the chairmanship of Capital City Police Officer (CCPO) Muhammad Aslam Tareen on Sunday. The meeting was informed that no less than 3,928 cases had been traced against the 1,867 accused, including 12 cases of murders, 16 cases of dacoity-cum-murder, 78 of dacoity, 1366 of robbery and 1,721 of burglary. Likewise, during the year 2010, Lahore police claimed to have seized booty over worth Rs 216 million, including Rs 18 million in cash, 9 kg and 38 tolas gold ornaments, 98 cars, 548 motorcycles, 1,823 cell phones, 20 pickup and rickshaws, two tractors, three trucks, six vans, bicycles, laptops, watches and foreign currency notes.
In a vigorous campaign against outlaws, the Lahore police have also arrested 18,839 proclaimed offenders out of which 779 were involved in murder cases, 622 in attempted murder, 499 in dacoity, 1,678 in robbery, 2,145 in burglary and 13,116 in other miscellaneous cases.
During the drive against illegal weapons, 4,229 cases were registered and 4,272 accused were arrested, following recovery of 33 Kalashnikovs, 167 rifles, 313 guns, 3,669 pistols and revolvers, 50 carbines, 23 mousers, one bomb, four jackets, 45 daggers, 22 kg ammunition and more than 21,000 bullets {Even with 10 to 1 kill ratio that is 2100 TSPian lives saved. } from their possession.

Why do I suspect that they have a huge crack in the back wall of the lock up cell. Looks like folks come in to spend the night in a nice warm cell and return to their TSPian way of life in the morning. Look at how Lahore police conducts its invetigation in a quick yet meticulous fashion in the next link.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 12 Oct 2010 00:41

A tale of police apathy

By Salman Aslam - LAHORE
THE “plain and simple” police raiding teams were ‘tricked’ into humiliating, beating and arresting three members of a family by a house servant who had wrongfully implicated them to settle a score.
Treating the accused as convicts, the police raided their house by making a forced entry, degrading women, beating the suspect and his two brothers and dragged them to the police station after the servant of a victim a victim of robbery stated that he had recognized the voice of one of the masked dacoits.
In the wee hours of October 8, three masked dacoits broke into the house of Manzoor, a scrap dealer and resident of Sootar Mill, and held him and his wife hostage at gunpoint. The dacoits also tied up his employee with ropes who was asleep in the warehouse in the same building. Manzoor claimed that the dacoits had taken away about Rs 2.7 million from his place.
At around 2am, Manzoor made a phone call to 15 and informed the police that around three dacoits had decamped with Rs 2.7 million from his house. Police team, including SP CRO Sajjad Munj, rushed to the scene and started a probe into the case.
Meanwhile, Manzoor’s employee suspected that a local, named Khalid, was involved in the dacoity while the same suspect had beaten him up over the issue of eve-teasing about four months back. He said he recognized Khalid through his voice.
Ironically, the “wise” officers bought the employee’s version and rushed to the place of Khalid who was living in front of Manzoor’ house. All the members of Khalid’s family were asleep when the policemen knocked at the door. As one of the family members responded, dozens of policemen forced their entry into the house and started beating up the women when they raised an alarm over the abrupt action. The police highhandedness, especially with the women, struck terror in the heart of their children who were clinging to the legs of their mothers.
The policemen staged a traditional show in the house of Khalid as they slapped the women, abused them and dragged them before they picked him and the suspect’s two brothers up from the house.
In the morning, the locals reached Manawan Police Station and pleaded the suspect’s innocence, as a result the police released Khalid’s brothers. Locals were of the view that the Manzoor’s employee had just settled the score with the family whose members had given him a good thrashing. Manzoor’s son Kashif had teased the daughter of Khalid’s elder brother Tahir almost four months back and passed a letter to her. The girl complained to her parents about Kashif’s act, upon which they admonished Manzoor and beat one of his employees when he offered resistance on behalf of his employer. “Whether or not a dacoity has been committed at the place of Manzoor, the family implicated by his servant can never do it,” the locals asserted.
A senior police officer, requesting anonymity, said, “It’s certainly a dilemma that people against whom FIRs are registered are treated as real culprits. They have to undergo severe physical torture and humiliation. And if they are found innocent, the officers feel no guilt over the brutal treatment the suspects met during interrogation.”
“The officers’ pressure force the investigating officers to expedite the pace of investigation and recovery, so the use of brutal torture to extract confessions is a routine in Punjab Police,” he said while laughing.
When contacted, SP CRO Sajjad Munj said Manzoor had told him that he woke up and discovered three dacoits carrying guns in his house. When the SP asked as to why he kept huge cash at his place, Manzoor said he was an illiterate man and had no bank account so he kept money at home.
The SP said that when Manzoor’s employee implicated Khalid in the incident, the complainant Manzoor said that his employee was not in his senses and police should not have believed what he was saying. Manzoor’s wife also requested the police to not to pick up Khalid on a mere suspicion of their employee. The SP said that things were not clear so they picked up Khalid as well as the employee of Manzoor for questioning. “We are checking the data of both the detainees and will soon resolve the mystery,” he added.
Meanwhile, the complainant and the accused party reconciled with each other the same night as the complainant Manzoor had reached Manawan Police Station for the release of Khalid. He asked the police to free Khalid as his employee had wrongfully named him. However, the Manawan Investigation incharge postponed the settlement for the next day.
On Saturday, the investigating officer informed that he would present Khalid before the court on Monday where Manzoor could record his statement and clarify the misunderstanding which had led to a severe humiliation and torture to the family at the hands of raiding police teams.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 12 Oct 2010 00:45

CRamS wrote:
Cosmo_R wrote: BTW, I do recommend everyone read Woodward's book. It is very illuminating indeed. Scary in that it's all about bureaucrats fighting it out with PowerPoint slides. In one presentation, Petraeus has 1000 slide session prepared
I urge others not to waste money reading a quintessential Washington insider's BS that was fed to him by his Pentagon/CIA handlers. Give me a break. Read expert comments on BR instead and you will learn more. Woodward has nothing from India's POV; its all US interests. As R-man pointed out, he swallowed the rouge elements did Mumbai sophistry that the CIA slime balls fed him. So much for his illumination.

The fact of the matter is that whether or not India is pressures as you say (in fact it has been, but thats a different matter), but the currency that TSP faces a "threat" from India, India is cause of TSP's recalitracnce has gained firm ground. Furthermore, that TSP has to rely on LET to counter India is also given legitimacy. How much more damage do you want done? With all the arms in TSP's kitty, who do you think will bear the brunt of TSP's machinations after US tucks its tail between its legs and runs away from AfPak? I mean shifting the evil away from TSP and somehow casting India as part of USA's travails in AfPak has not been countered by MMS & his coterie. Its as if they are either willing collaboraters with US in this game, or spineless mute spectators.

I hope you are not saying India is being led by traitors and US moles who have seized the highest positions in the land. If that scenario is true then I think we'd better just give up. It's pointless.

I have drawn different conclusions and am not so defeatist or willing to believe that LeT has been given any legitimacy particularly since they are a designated terrorist organization. If you can point to something specific I'll gladly peruse it.

I will learn from people on BR along with information from other sources. In both cases, facts matter not opinions. The better posts provide open source links and some commentary identified as views/insights. Readers make up their own minds.

Finally, I think calling Woodward a CIA stooge without any proof is not educative. If you do have some factual basis for tat I'm all ears. His book is particularly interesting in that it reveals how decisions are being made and what the next actions are likely to be. This is not history but history in the making. Those who feel it is somehow a proscribed text need not read it.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 12 Oct 2010 00:46

What a scientific way of investigation?

Our crime correspondent - Rawalpindi
What a ‘scientific way of investigation’? investigation? the Punjab police never know. They still follow the law of jungle and have capability to ‘impose any crime’ on anyone they want to. This is a hard fact that they do not trace criminals but create criminals.
A boy was arrested by R.A. Bazaar Rawalpindi Police from Kamalabad area for interrogation in a murder case was abruptly found in police custody after he remained missing for more than two weeks when the case was pursued by ‘The News’. The boy was allegedly kept in illegal detention for over 16 days and tortured inhumanly till he confessed his crime, which he never committed. The police would properly arrest him on Monday in murder charges and produce him before the court of law requesting for his physical remand for further torture and investigation.
When the case was brought into the notice of City Police Officer Fakhar Sultan on Friday afternoon, he tasked DSP (Cantonment) Taimoor Khan to initiate an inquiry and locate Shahzad Sharif who went missing from the police custody and present a report to him within two days.
In the latest development, Taimoor has called the family to his office and confessed that the boy was in their custody but he was involved in a case of murder and kidnapping for ransom.
“He told us that they had picked up some 23 accused from different areas of the city for interrogation regarding murder case of Afaq Qureshi. Now they have finalised investigations and found five of them involved in kidnapping for ransom and murder including Sharif,” Tahira, sister of the boy, said.
She mentioned that Taimoor had informed them that police would register a case of murder and kidnapping for ransom against him Saturday and then the family could also see him. Sharif, aged 25, was first arrested by the Race Course Police on July 22 in connection with a murder case of a student Afaq Qureshi, who was kidnapped for ransom on June 17 from Tench Bhata and was later killed. Sharif was first interrogated by the police for six days and released as innocent, she added.
Tahira while talking to ‘The News’ said police personnel raided their house on September 20 midnight to arrest her brother but the family was in Wah Cantt visiting relatives. Police arrested his brother Bilal instead and later asked the family to present Sharif to police as he was required by them for fresh interrogation in the murder case.
The family presented Sharif to police after getting assurances from them that he would be released within two to three days. The family was informed that as Sub-Inspector Malik Munir was appointed as new in-charge of the police post, therefore, they needed to look into the matter afresh to ascertain facts.
Tahira said they approached Munir after two days but he sought three more days and informed the family that Sharif might had been remotely connected with the murder.
She said that her brother was neither presented before any court during his arrest nor the family was allowed to see him during this period.
She said even after the lapse of two weeks, the family was unaware of his whereabouts because police were not allowing the family to see him. She said she has finally filed a habeas corpus petition in the District Court.
However, when SI Munir and SHO R.A. Bazaar Chaudhry Ilyas were summoned by the court on October 5, they flatly denied having the custody of Sharif, she alleged.
“But now we are pleased to hear about our brother and want his early release from the police station as he is innocent. If the police consider him guilty, then they must present him before the court of law to ascertain whether or not he is involved in the murder case,” Tahira added.

BijuShet · Post by **BijuShet** » 12 Oct 2010 01:03

Islamabad Police is not that far behind. Look at their stats for the past 9 months
Islamabad police arrested 120 terrorists

Our crime correspondent - Islamabad: Remaining steadfast against the menace of terrorism, Islamabad Police also emerged successful during the ongoing year in countering criminal elements, the murderers, car-lifter gangs and robbers, the police spokesman said.
The commitment and devotion by the police officers and jawans made them successful against the criminal elements this year as they remained very much effective in curbing the crime and taking prompt action against the criminals.
The success story of the Islamabad operational police, responsible for preventing crime, reveals that it arrested 120 terrorists and also recovered one suicide jacket and 969 kilogram explosive material.{ that is a lot of explosive material}
Combating crime of the nature, it challaned 54 murder cases and arrested 137 accused for their alleged involved in assassination cases. Over 68 stolen vehicles and 13 motorcycles worth millions of rupees were also recovered by the police only in this year while 120 car thieves were also arrested.
A total of 247 persons were arrested for their alleged involvement in attempt to murder cases and 67 cases were challaned. Similarly, 639 persons were arrested in hurt cases and 205 cases were challaned.
The police also remained very much successful in busting various gangs of kidnappers and recovered several abdcutees from them. In all, 377 persons were arrested for involvement in Zina/Kidnapping cases.
Police also made significant recoveries in dacoities, theft and burglary cases and arrested a total of 501 criminals for their involvement in these cases. Valuables worth millions of rupees were recovered from these nabbed persons.
Patrolling teams of Islamabad Police deputed at various pickets also contributed significantly to make this city `more peaceful and ensured protection to the lives and property of the citizens. Huge cache of arms including 89 rifles, 36 guns, 471 pistols and 13125 rounds were recovered from 587 nabbed persons.
Similarly, Islamabad Police, particularly its patrolling teams, arrested 661 persons and recovered 425 kilogram hashish, 14.636 kilogram opium, 33 kilogram heroin from them.
Following the directions of police high ups, efforts were being made to arrest the proclaimed offenders, court absconders and 131 proclaimed offenders, 250 court absconders were arrested during the current year.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 12 Oct 2010 01:06

Cosmo_R wrote: I hope you are not saying India is being led by traitors and US moles who have seized the highest positions in the land. If that scenario is true then I think we'd better just give up. It's pointless.

Not exactly proof, but here are some musings coming from Daniel Patrick Moinayahn, supposedly an "Indo-Phile". Just look at his condescension, using phrases like "Indian regime" to refer to a democracy, "Brahmin thinking" etc etc.

I have drawn different conclusions and am not so defeatist or willing to believe that LeT has been given any legitimacy particularly since they are a designated terrorist organization. If you can point to something specific I'll gladly peruse it.

Excerpts from your own Woodward's book were posted here where one Pentagon or someother bloke in Obama's inner circle endorsed LET as necessary for TSP. Just the fact that LET has not risen on the evil bar of US radar like Al Queda or Taliban or Hamas or Hezbollah should tell you something.

Finally, I think calling Woodward a CIA stooge without any proof is not educative. If you do have some factual basis for tat I'm all ears.

He is supposed to be an investigative icon. Show me one article by him or any US mainstream journalist writing about the diabolical games CIA plays, particularly in India. They are nationalistic, full of themselves s@it heads.

His book is particularly interesting in that it reveals how decisions are being made and what the next actions are likely to be. This is not history but history in the making.

This mush I agree. I always tell fresh-off-the boat Indians who get more animated about US politics: dems Vs reps theater than Americans themselves that all this theater is a war of attrition between inside the belt-way elites jockeying for power. Give or take a few cents, the differences between them are not as huge as they seem. Thus, if you are interested in DC insider issues, like I said before, whose back who scratched, and whose balls who pinched, I am sure Woodward provides juicy tit-bits. As a well-paid DC insider with years & years in the beltway, he knows whom to call and gets some dog bones thrown at him which is then hyped up in the media as some great investigative BS. From a strategic POV, much less the games played against India, there is hardly anything there, except the usual cover up of TSP crimes against India. We on BR can tell you more than Woodward or anyother DC insider ever can and will.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 12 Oct 2010 01:13

^^

generalization algorithm 101

So the arrested >100 pakis (all pakis are terrorists)?

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 12 Oct 2010 01:29

CRamS wrote:I always tell fresh-off-the boat Indians who get more animated about US politics: dems Vs reps theater than Americans themselves that all this theater is a war of attrition between inside the belt-way elites jockeying for power. Give or take a few cents, the differences between them are not as huge as they seem. Thus, if you are interested in DC insider issues, like I said before, whose back who scratched, and whose balls who pinched, I am sure Woodward provides juicy tit-bits. As a well-paid DC insider with years & years in the beltway, he knows whom to call and gets some dog bones thrown at him which is then hyped up in the media as some great investigative BS. From a strategic POV, much less the games played against India, there is hardly anything there, except the usual cover up of TSP crimes against India. We on BR can tell you more than Woodward or anyother DC insider ever can and will.

Was it BRF consensus that the Obama administration was deeply divided on Af-Pak policy?
Could BRF collectively name who took which particular position on different position points?
Did BRF collectively conclude that the Obama administration was conducting paramilitary operations inside Pakistan against Pakistani clients and allies such as the Quetta Shura and the Haqqani Network?

One doesn't have to *like* the point of view of Woodward or Coll, or any other American journalist to recognise that they have unique access to the dynamics of the increasingly violent US-Pakistani relationship, and to US policy on Afghanistan.

Like it or not BRF does depend on a range of reporting, including DC-based reporting to come to its opinions. The trick is not to rely entirely on any one source, but rather to integrate them in to a bigger picture of the region that doesn't censor or whitewash Pakistan's behaviour. That is where BRF adds value.

In any case it is the New Yorker's Seymour Hersh and the L.A. Time's William Arkin, not Woodward who are the great boat-rockers, the true investigative journalists of American national-security. It takes real guts to blow something like Abu Ghraib open.