Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 13 Oct 2010 08:07

PHOTO : Recent pic of Agni-II MRBM heading for op deployment on Twitpic
Posted on September 2, 2010
by livefist

well i got it from shiva's blog \ twitter

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 13 Oct 2010 08:11

TFTA Missiles Failing almost right, left & centre.

Raytheon SM-2 Standard anti-air missiles
Boeing Harpoon anti-ship missiles
MBDA Sea Skua lightweight anti-ship missiles

S. Korea Investigates Malfunctioning Missiles
Defense News

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Oct 2010 08:25

In any case that flatbed trailer road conversion is hardly suitable for deployment even though the military camo is noted. It looks more like a testbed that is wheeled out for launch and used in R-Day parades.
Its better to test a potentially road mobile missile from one of these than from a launch gantry.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 09:11

srai wrote:
Juggi G wrote:Akash Missile Users Give Feedback To DRDO
Aviation Week
...
The air force already has placed orders for two squadrons of these systems, and six more are in the final stages. The army also has placed orders for two regiments.

The missile system and radars are worth Rs 23,000 core ($4-5 billion) — the biggest orders in recent times for a DRDO product. “It is the first time a home-grown tactical missile system is being ordered in large numbers by Indian users,” the official says.
IAF - 8 squadrons (16 batteries) - 1,000 total missiles [125 missiles per squadron (~62 missiles per battery)]
IA - 2 regiments (2 groups - 8 batteries) - 500 total missiles
----------------------------------------------
24 batteries @ $5 billion = ~$200 million per battery

Each IA regiment consists of 6 or 8 batteries? It is 6, i think.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 09:38

rkhanna wrote:
Since there are 4 launchers with 3 missiles each, 12 missiles overall, thats equal to six targets @ 2 Missiles each, before the Akash battery needs to reload. Missile would be fired automatically once the enemy aircraft is decided as a threat and keeping into account its velocity and when it would be within Akash envelope.

Food for thought at the 2 missiles per target comment : (Cross posting from WAFF)

http://www.1tv.ru/news/other/160922
In exercises a single battery instantaneously engaged 5 targets with 5 missiles achieving a 100% kill rate. No more need to waste 2 missiles per target. The system is a huge improvement over the older Buk-M1 system. The M1 could only track 6 targets at one time, the new system can track 32 targets instantaneously. Range has been increased from 35 to 45km's.

Correct expression is here:

Dr. Prahlada wrote:What is the kill probability?

On a single launch it is 88 per cent. Assured 88 per cent. So when the target enters the optimum kill zone, the commander gets a beep. Unless he has any other information, he will clear the launch. Then the missile is checked automatically, and it fires. When the missile flies, the radar tracks it. If the first missile does not take off due to any mistake, automatically a second missile gets launched.

Suppose the target is high priority, the commander would take no chances. He can then launch two missiles at the same target. One will go, and after 5 seconds the other will go. Then the kill probability is 99 per cent.

And it is most reliable. We were telling the Air Force that even if four out of five launches [done last month] succeed, you should take it. Some quality control problem, some loose wires, something not put correctly, can cause a problem in one or two. Even in imported, mature systems, produced in hundreds, a few could fail. But five out of five succeeded. Not even a single one misbehaved.

It is not 2 missile per target as such. In extreme situation, if the commander decided not to take chances only then he sets two missiles per target otherwise it is one missile per target. And this is very much the norm in other tactical Air Defense systems.

Pk is determined by 1. Energy of the missile at the end game 2. Manoeuverability of the missile 3. Anti-jamming features(ECCM) 4. Warhead lethality, in the order mentioned. If you are interested, i like you to ponder on these to arrive at your own conclusion in comparison of different missile systems. I may also ask you to ponder on this fact, if the total flight time of Akash is ~ 45 secs, by lauching another missile after 5 secs, in which possible scenarios, the commander might fire a second missile and how this translates to the strength of the individual missile as capable or comparable to the system which employs only single missile per target.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 09:54

The missile system and radars are worth Rs 23,000 core ($4-5 billion) — the biggest orders in recent times for a DRDO product.

Is this correct?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 10:46

D Roy wrote:In any case that flatbed trailer road conversion is hardly suitable for deployment even though the military camo is noted. It looks more like a testbed that is wheeled out for launch and used in R-Day parades.
Its better to test a potentially road mobile missile from one of these than from a launch gantry.

Build some thing like the MAZ launnchers of used by the Ruskies. It is a nice off road platform with self contained navigation systems.

Or the tatra 8X8 could be streached into a 6 or more axel chasis and then used as a road mobile launcher.

JMT

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2010 11:04

since we are talking of few 100 vehicles at most, perhaps importing the 14 wheel topol-M TEL truck is best option. but we badly need our missile itself to be containerized for protection and reliability.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 11:10

Hey, what happned to ur can do spirit

. A 5 axel tatra was designed and build for Smerch. What prevents the platform to sreached again? Or even design a new plat form from scratch using existing resources available at home with BEML, Tata, AL ityadi.

+ 1 to the second part of your post.

Make it at home. That ought to be the moto.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Oct 2010 12:21

funny as this sounds but building an excellent TEL/Hard mobile launcher is just as bit complex as a good missile itself.

Many of the Chicom TELs need prepared launch sites. So many Chicom launchers are good for parades but have limited mobility.

The wet dream would be to build the awesome hard mobile launchers ( one was a wheeled system the other tracked) developed by Khan in the eighties for the SICBM i.e Midgetman program.

Singha,

let's see if the Agni II plus turns out to be a wooden round.

In fact like Scalpel and MX we should make our rail mobile missiles canisterised as well.

Right now the Shourya and potentially the Agni V seem to be the two land based canisterised strike systems we are looking at. Along with Brahmos of course.

Another could be a strike derivative of the AAD.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Oct 2010 12:49

Kanson wrote:
It is not 2 missile per target as such. In extreme situation, if the commander decided not to take chances only then he sets two missiles per target otherwise it is one missile per target. And this is very much the norm in other tactical Air Defense systems. <SNIP>

Kanson - the two missile per target is more or less a SOP.

Look at it this ways - the range of the missile is 30kms. Even if fired at extreme range (benefit of target moving towards the runway/airbase/intended target) - the expected time for hitting the target is 20-25seconds. If the first missile misses for what ever reason, the reaction time for launching the second missile is very less. I don't think anyone will take such a chance. And 24 ready to fire missiles is a pretty big number.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 13:21

Rohit / Kanson,

How many target illuminators does the Akash battry has.

Or does the Rajendra doubles as a target illumminator. If Rajendra is the target illuminator then how many targets it can engage simultaneously. Cause IIRC it can track 64 simultaneously, but am not clear how many it can engage simultaneously.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 15:30

rohitvats wrote:
Kanson wrote:
It is not 2 missile per target as such. In extreme situation, if the commander decided not to take chances only then he sets two missiles per target otherwise it is one missile per target. And this is very much the norm in other tactical Air Defense systems. <SNIP>
Kanson - the two missile per target is more or less a SOP.

Look at it this ways - the range of the missile is 30kms. Even if fired at extreme range (benefit of target moving towards the runway/airbase/intended target) - the expected time for hitting the target is 20-25seconds. If the first missile misses for what ever reason, the reaction time for launching the second missile is very less. I don't think anyone will take such a chance. And 24 ready to fire missiles is a pretty big number.

I never said anywhere, the second Akash missile will be launched only after the failure of the first missile in destroying the target.

The 24 missiles you mention is to cover large Area depending upon the deployment scenario.

SOP ? who says so ?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 15:49

Pratyush wrote:Rohit / Kanson,

How many target illuminators does the Akash battry has.

Or does the Rajendra doubles as a target illumminator. If Rajendra is the target illuminator then how many targets it can engage simultaneously. Cause IIRC it can track 64 simultaneously, but am not clear how many it can engage simultaneously.

I dont know from where this 64 figure came. Let me ask this, if the WLR which is a derivative of Rajendra can only track 7 targets simultaneously as published by BEL, how come Rajendra can track 64 targets ? Such an abnormality?

I guess they are confusing this with backend data processing capability of Rajendra with Rajendra radar.

In a battery level/Autonomous mode, both BSR (Battery Survelliance Radar) and Rajendra Radar provide track information to the backend data processing unit. But the fire control & verification jobs are provided by Rajendra *Radar*. As per AkashSAM site, 40 simultaneous tracks from BSR and 20 tracks from Rajendra. So combine together Rajendra *System* can track 60 or so target tracks at Battery level.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 Oct 2010 16:02

the ground clearance of the midgetman HML looks quite poor
http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/usa/icbm/hml_03.jpg

doesnt look designed for extended patrols or sorties off the road network - which is ok because usa has lots of good roads.

the MAZ beast for topol-M is more all terrain.
http://en.valka.cz/files/raketa_balisti ... -m_129.jpg

the specs of the midgetman are superb though ... just 14t, 1.7m dia, 14m long and 11,000km range with a 500kt warhead...just the kind of thing we need for road/rail work.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 16:37

Kanson wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Rohit / Kanson,

How many target illuminators does the Akash battry has.

Or does the Rajendra doubles as a target illumminator. If Rajendra is the target illuminator then how many targets it can engage simultaneously. Cause IIRC it can track 64 simultaneously, but am not clear how many it can engage simultaneously.
I dont know from where this 64 figure came. Let me ask this, if the WLR which is a derivative of Rajendra can only track 7 targets simultaneously as published by BEL, how come Rajendra can track 64 targets ? Such an abnormality?

I guess they are confusing this with backend data processing capability of Rajendra with Rajendra radar.

In a battery level/Autonomous mode, both BSR (Battery Survelliance Radar) and Rajendra Radar provide track information to the backend data processing unit. But the fire control & verification jobs are provided by Rajendra *Radar*. As per AkashSAM site, 40 simultaneous tracks from BSR and 20 tracks from Rajendra. So combine together Rajendra *System* can track 60 or so target tracks at Battery level.

Kanson,

The 20 of Rajendra seem to be a subset of the 40 from of BSR and not an addition of the 40 of BSR, in that case can the system actally engage 20 targets at the same time. If not, then, what is the actual number of targets that can be engaged by Akash battery.

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 13 Oct 2010 16:43

Don't rush to any conclusions yet.

The pic you have put up doesn't give quite give the right idea of the scale and shows the trailer in a depressed position. And even from that picture you can see where the HML was being tested ( terrain wise) and what it could do.

This will give a better picture of size and clearance ( next to a monster truck)

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... 9287;image and this

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... 4624;image

Of course not to take anything away from the Russki beast. I am a fan. And for the like-minded here's a nice compilation

http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/03 ... riers.html
http://www.darkroastedblend.com/2007/05 ... icles.html

On the Midgetman itself,

Totally concur
That range with a sub 2.0 solid motor casing and decent payload. Awesome.

even a midgetman lite would do.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Oct 2010 19:22

Pratyush wrote:
Kanson wrote: I dont know from where this 64 figure came. Let me ask this, if the WLR which is a derivative of Rajendra can only track 7 targets simultaneously as published by BEL, how come Rajendra can track 64 targets ? Such an abnormality?

I guess they are confusing this with backend data processing capability of Rajendra with Rajendra radar.

In a battery level/Autonomous mode, both BSR (Battery Survelliance Radar) and Rajendra Radar provide track information to the backend data processing unit. But the fire control & verification jobs are provided by Rajendra *Radar*. As per AkashSAM site, 40 simultaneous tracks from BSR and 20 tracks from Rajendra. So combine together Rajendra *System* can track 60 or so target tracks at Battery level.
Kanson,

The 20 of Rajendra seem to be a subset of the 40 from of BSR and not an addition of the 40 of BSR, in that case can the system actally engage 20 targets at the same time. If not, then, what is the actual number of targets that can be engaged by Akash battery.

See, Rajendra can autonomously function as search/track/guidance radar. In stricter sense, it doesnt need BSR to handover targets for tracking. Akash system supports data fusion from various sensors. These are done in BCC/GCC and the system can maintain individual tracks from BSR as well as Rajendra. As i see it, it is not a subset as you put it.

No. of targets acquired by Rajendra for engagement is 4.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 13 Oct 2010 19:46

Kanson,

Thanks

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 13 Oct 2010 20:06

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... 9287;image and this

http://www.secretprojects.co.uk/forum/i ... 4624;image

Requires login..

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Oct 2010 20:33

Kanson wrote:
I never said anywhere, the second Akash missile will be launched only after the failure of the first missile in destroying the target.

The 24 missiles you mention is to cover large Area depending upon the deployment scenario.

SOP ? who says so ?

The post was in context of the kill probability per missile. Even if the missile has very high kill probability - the fire unit will fire two missiles. For the reason I mentioned above - the reaction time for 2nd fire is very low.

Each IAF base (most actually) have one Squadron of Pechora Missiles - IIRC, with three flights per Squadron. So, from IAF's perspective - the defended area is the base.

As for SOP - from the horse's mouth, literally.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Oct 2010 20:43

Gentlemen,

Can someone please explain the whole sequence of Surveillance, tracking and guidance? And who does what between the GCC and BCC and the role of various radars? The whole kill sequence?

Thanx.

Misraji · Post by **Misraji** » 13 Oct 2010 21:01

^^^

Akash has an advanced automated functioning capability. The 3D CAR automatically starts tracking targets at a distance of around 150 km providing early warning to the system and operators. The target track information is transferred to GCC. GCC automatically classifies the target. BSR starts tracking targets around a range of 100km. This data is transferred to GCC. The GCC performs multi-radar tracking and carries out track correlation and data fusion. Target position information is sent to the BLR which uses this information to acquire the targets.

The BCC which can engage a target(s) from the selected list at the earliest point of time is assigned the target in real time by the GCC. The availability of missiles and the health of the missiles are also taken into consideration during this process. Fresh targets are assigned as and when intercepts with assigned targets are completed. A single shot kill probability of 88% has been achieved by the system taking into consideration various parameters of the sensors, guidance command, missile capabilities and kill zone computations.

akashsam.com

Is this what you were looking for?

~Ashish

koti · Post by **koti** » 13 Oct 2010 22:23

Juggi G wrote:DRDO Research Center A Key Missile Player
Aviation Week

DRDO Research Center A Key Missile Player
Oct 12, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
HYDERABAD, India

I have done my final year project there some time back.
It truly was a remarkable place with few of the greatest minds in current day India.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2010 22:41

Kanson wrote:I dont know from where this 64 figure came. Let me ask this, if the WLR which is a derivative of Rajendra can only track 7 targets simultaneously as published by BEL, how come Rajendra can track 64 targets ? Such an abnormality?

I guess they are confusing this with backend data processing capability of Rajendra with Rajendra radar.

In a battery level/Autonomous mode, both BSR (Battery Survelliance Radar) and Rajendra Radar provide track information to the backend data processing unit. But the fire control & verification jobs are provided by Rajendra *Radar*. As per AkashSAM site, 40 simultaneous tracks from BSR and 20 tracks from Rajendra. So combine together Rajendra *System* can track 60 or so target tracks at Battery level.

The Rajendra itself can track upto 64 targets. Of these 64, it displays 20 for the operator. It would pick 20 either, auto or with manual intervention. Of these 20, the Rajendra will track 4 on high priority and with maximum accuracy, so as to guide 2 missiles at each target.

The BSR is an entirely separate radar, used as an early warning sensor for Rajendra. It allows the battery to keep searching for additional threats, 360 degree even while the Rajendra is slewed to a certain direction and is engaging targets. But it is a 2D radar. It wont give height. Now, with available funds, the Army may acquire a 3D CAR or another variant instead of this 2D radar. The BSR can track 100 targets.

Both the BSR and Rajendra tracks can be seen in the BCC and then the GCC. These tracks are examined, matched and combined to ensure no repetitions and same targets are not repeated, so there is no confusion. If there is no GCC, BCC (Battery Control Center) does the same job, including everything from acquisition of target, to engagement. So there is redundancy.

WLR comparison is not germane. It has a different role, and reason its track numbers are low are because it deals with very very small radar cross section targets (0.01 and 0.001 sq meter) and has to get the data out as fast as possible for counter battery response. WLR tracking & measurement also involves significantly more processing. The radar calculates a profile to show from where these shells were launched, correlating that with a GIS database/map to give accurate coordinates, before the shell lands. So the Rajendra Track numbers and WLR numbers cannot be compared.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 13 Oct 2010 22:48

Pratyush wrote:Kanson,

The 20 of Rajendra seem to be a subset of the 40 from of BSR and not an addition of the 40 of BSR, in that case can the system actally engage 20 targets at the same time. If not, then, what is the actual number of targets that can be engaged by Akash battery.

BSR and Rajendra are separate radars with separate processing. BSR can track 100 targets. Rajendra, 64. These can be separate targets. (Half of PAF attacking one base)

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 14 Oct 2010 06:05

RCI Nav Systems Now On Multiple Platforms
Aviation Week

RCI Nav Systems Now On Multiple Platforms
Oct 13, 2010
By Anantha Krishnan M.
Hyderabad, India

Indian armed forces and industry are seizing on an opportunity to equip various Indian platforms with homegrown advanced systems, like navigation systems.

The development is a Twist of Fate as India Tries to Overcome Obstacles once laid down by the West’s Missile Technology Control Regime (MTCR).

Satheesh Reddy, director of navigation systems at the Research Center Imarat (RCI), claims that India can now rub shoulders with the best in the business of making missiles.

The denial of technology stemming from MTCR also forced the lab to find indigenous ways to develop systems in the areas of fiber optic gyroscopes (control grade and inertial grade) for missile, tanks and aircraft, ring laser gyroscopes for long-range and long-endurance missiles and flight vehicles. The lab also produces high-accuracy accelerometers to meet the accuracy requirements of long-range missiles.

“We learned huge lessons when various critical technologies were denied to us,” Reddy tells AVIATION WEEK. “It did put the brakes on our march forward. We went through the grind, faced flak from all corners, but then we never took our eyes off the target. Today our navigation systems are getting onboard not only on missiles, but aircraft, ships and submarines,” he explains.

With a major thrust by India’s Defense Minister A.K. Antony for indigenous products, RCI has become the Indian Defense Research and Development Organization’s flag-bearer in state-of-the-art systems and subsystems for missile programs.

The primary focus of the lab was to support various missions by providing systems like inertial navigation systems (INS), Global Positioning Systems (GPS) and Global Navigation Satellite System (Glonass) receivers. Today, the technology know-how has given confidence to RCI to support different missions with varied requirements of DRDO and users. Having mastered the art of precision hits – the sole objective of any missile program – RCI has graduated to providing navigational support to Tejas, Su-30MKI and Jaguar. The lab is also supporting the Indian Navy for other so-called smart upgrades.

RCI’s Navigation System unit is focussing on the development of built-in redundant systems with highly-accurate sensors and single-chip navigation solutions. “The lab has been playing a silent role in contributing to DRDO’s sensitive programs, which at this point we wouldn’t want to talk about,” says one lab official.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 14 Oct 2010 08:46

All this lifting curtain on RCI could be a precursor to the Obama visit and technology denial sanctions. The case could be made if India already has this stuff no point in not selling and missing the market space.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 14 Oct 2010 23:30

rohitvats wrote:
Each IAF base (most actually) have one Squadron of Pechora Missiles - IIRC, with three flights per Squadron.

Most bases on western and northern borders have 2 Pechora missile sites with 3 launchers each. Some bases also have an empty site where a squadron can be easily based.

There are also a few stand-alone Pechora sites, i.e. not at any air base.

Kersi

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Oct 2010 00:06

Kersi D wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Each IAF base (most actually) have one Squadron of Pechora Missiles - IIRC, with three flights per Squadron.
Most bases on western and northern borders have 2 Pechora missile sites with 3 launchers each. Some bases also have an empty site where a squadron can be easily based.

There are also a few stand-alone Pechora sites, i.e. not at any air base.

Kersi

Kersi D, you've just answered the question about number of fligts per SAM Squadron and launchers per Flight....

The stand alone Pechora sites could be sited to cover the ingress route towards a Vital Target in the hinter land....

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2010 02:20

The empty sites are probably because the IAF is focusing its SAMs on protecting vital areas and bases now.

According to reports, India had a total of 60 firing units, that is 30 squadron of Pechoras but is now down to 24, that is 12 squadrons.

Akash and Spyder together add upto 17 squadrons (8+9) but SpyDer is shorter ranged than the Pechora even though it is far more modern and effective.

SpyDer Marketing video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdJm-thKvGI

But even taking the SpyDer "temporarily" as a replacement for the Pechora and SRSAM as replacement for OSA-AK (SA-8 Gecko), we have at least 13 squadrons "missing" (30 Pechora - 17 ordered) and IAF intends to have 9 Squadrons of MRSAM (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 199201.cms) so that is 4 squadrons left.

I think these may mean more orders for either Akash MK2 or advanced MRSAM. 4 - 13 more, in fact. Also, I do think IAF acquire more Medium SAM squadrons (as SpyDer is not really a MRSAM)..

The ABM program will call for more raisings. Per public reports by DRDO (a "few batteries" are enough for each city/vital area), but these will probably be handled separately and not be part of the official 30 squadron SAM limit of the IAF.

Thoughts..?

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Oct 2010 03:58

Karan M wrote:...

According to reports, India had a total of 60 firing units, that is 30 squadron of Pechoras but is now down to 24, that is 12 squadrons.

Akash and Spyder together add upto 17 squadrons (8+9) but SpyDer is shorter ranged than the Pechora even though it is far more modern and effective.

...

But even taking the SpyDer "temporarily" as a replacement for the Pechora and SRSAM as replacement for OSA-AK (SA-8 Gecko), we have at least 13 squadrons "missing" (30 Pechora - 17 ordered) and IAF intends to have 9 Squadrons of MRSAM (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 199201.cms) so that is 4 squadrons left.

I think these may mean more orders for either Akash MK2 or advanced MRSAM. 4 - 13 more, in fact. Also, I do think IAF acquire more Medium SAM squadrons (as SpyDer is not really a MRSAM)..

The ABM program will call for more raisings. Per public reports by DRDO (a "few batteries" are enough for each city/vital area), but these will probably be handled separately and not be part of the official 30 squadron SAM limit of the IAF.

Thoughts..?

IAF will be inducting 9 squadrons (18 batteries) of the Barak-8 JV LR-SAM from 2013 onwards. Initial Mk.1 version will have 70km range with subsequent versions' range increased to 100+km. So each squadron has the capability to cover around 150-200+km. These will primarily be used as part of the Air Defense Ground Environment System (ADGES) and less as a Base Air Defense Zone (BADZ). IMO, additional 18-27 squadrons would be needed to provide a dense ADGES coverage in the Western, South-Western, Central and North-East sectors.

It would seem that Spyder LLQRM (with a range of 15km) and Akash MR-SAM (with a range of 30km) are interchangeable for BADZ "outer-ring" SAM coverage. You would not need both ... only one type would be sufficient. Actual coverage would be 30km-60km based on how the squadron's two SAM Combat Flights are deployed. BADZ "inner-ring" (500m-5km) would be best covered by MANPADs and AD guns.

Since the Barak-8 would take care of ADGES, LLQRM and MR-SAM would be deployed only for BADZ. IAF has 60+ airbases in its 5 commands (16 WAC, 15 EAC, 7 CAC, 12 SWAC and 11 SAC). Let's say WAC, SWAC, EAC, CAC, and 2 airbases in SAC's A&N islands are given higher priority. That would mean at least 52 [16 + 15 + 12 + 7 + 2] LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons would be required (if deployed as full-strength). Current order covers 17 [9+8] squadrons. So, 35 [52-17] more LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons are needed.

If ordered in a symmetrical fashion, we could see the breakup of the LLQRM/MR-SAM orders as follows:
36 LLQRM [9 Spyder Mk.1 + 9 Spyder Mk.2 + 9 Maitri Mk.1 + 9 Maitri Mk.2]
16 MR-SAM [8 Akash Mk.1 + 8 Akash Mk.2]
--------------------------------------------------
52 LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons for BADZ (if only covering major IAF bases)

27 LR-SAM squadrons [9 Barak-8 Mk.1 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.2 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.3] for ADGES

Plus, at least 6 new ABM squadrons (if one per city) will be needed to cover Mumbai, Delhi, Kolkata, Hyderabad, Bangalore and Chennai.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 15 Oct 2010 04:13

Nice post but 79 SAM squadrons?

But I doubt if the IAF will get Govt permission to raise the number of SAM squadrons beyond the (pre) existing 30, to such high levels.

We won't get more SpyDers is my guess, but directly jump to SRSAM. And I think the BARAK MRSAMs will be used both for the BADZ/ADGES role where possible (depending on nodes). Basically, I think we'll have 30 squadrons split between Akash/MRSAM variant and also another bunch of squadrons for ABM role, and few more SpyDer and SRSAM squadrons for OSA-AK and Strela replacements.

John · Post by **John** » 15 Oct 2010 04:53

Pratyush wrote:Rohit / Kanson,

How many target illuminators does the Akash battry has.

Or does the Rajendra doubles as a target illumminator. If Rajendra is the target illuminator then how many targets it can engage simultaneously. Cause IIRC it can track 64 simultaneously, but am not clear how many it can engage simultaneously.

Akash is a command guided missile it is not semi active radar guided.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Oct 2010 04:56

Karan M wrote:Nice post but 79 SAM squadrons?

But I doubt if the IAF will get Govt permission to raise the number of SAM squadrons beyond the (pre) existing 30, to such high levels.

...

My projections are for the next 30 years buildup/upgrade of ground-based air defenses.

Current strength, as noted by ACM, is grossly inadequate and underfunded. I believe the 30 Pechora squadrons are/have-been primarily set up in the Western/South-Western Command as a Pakistan-centric ground air-defense. This means that a lot of IAF's other bases had inadequate SAM protection.

However, future strategy calls for modernization of all its airbases, which includes a SAM coverage. Also, IAF is no longer Pakistan-centric. It has plans for opening/activating new airfields all across the country and is re-distributing resources in the North-East and the Southern command (including A&N Islands).

Although, if IAF only uses 1 SAM battery per air base, then we can see half the numbers of squadrons required. But it is likely based on threat perceptions and strategic value, some airbases will have a full SAM squadron with two combat flights (2 batteries) while others will have just one SAM battery. With 52 LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons, it will cover around 100 airbases or other high-value targets.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 15 Oct 2010 09:56

srai wrote:
IAF will be inducting 9 squadrons (18 batteries) of the Barak-8 JV LR-SAM from 2013 onwards. Initial Mk.1 version will have 70km range with subsequent versions' range increased to 100+km. So each squadron has the capability to cover around 150-200+km. These will primarily be used as part of the Air Defense Ground Environment System (ADGES) and less as a Base Air Defense Zone (BADZ). IMO, additional 18-27 squadrons would be needed to provide a dense ADGES coverage in the Western, South-Western, Central and North-East sectors.

Prior to planned induction of LR-SAM, IAF did not have missile in this category. So, anything hostile beyond 40kms was the repsonsibility of Fighters. Now with coming of LR-SAM, this will change to some extent.

As for BADZ - the responsibility was with Pechora/SA-8/MANPADS+L-70 - in that order - with SA-8 not available on 1-1 basis for Pechora SAM. Replace Pechora with Akash and SA-8 with Spyder and you get the BADZ SAM picture (for some airbases). They form the outer and inner ring of BADZ. What is interesting to note is the minimum engagement distance of Akash SAM will over lap with Spyder SAM. Given the present force level, the replacement will not be on one-on-one basis - I expect some of the Squadrons of Pechoras and SA-8 to be beefed up as more LR-SAM and Spyder arrive.

It would seem that Spyder LLQRM (with a range of 15km) and Akash MR-SAM (with a range of 30km) are interchangeable for BADZ "outer-ring" SAM coverage. You would not need both ... only one type would be sufficient. Actual coverage would be 30km-60km based on how the squadron's two SAM Combat Flights are deployed. BADZ "inner-ring" (500m-5km) would be best covered by MANPADs and AD guns

.

Please see the comment above - IMO, each major IAF base will have one Squadron each of Akash and Sypder. I don't think one can wait for target to come so close (Spyder range) and then take corrective action by deploying only Spyder units.

And please don't forget that Akash will be required for AD of economically and politically important assets and other vital targets like bridges and dams etc.

Since the Barak-8 would take care of ADGES, LLQRM and MR-SAM would be deployed only for BADZ. IAF has 60+ airbases in its 5 commands (16 WAC, 15 EAC, 7 CAC, 12 SWAC and 11 SAC). Let's say WAC, SWAC, EAC, CAC, and 2 airbases in SAC's A&N islands are given higher priority. That would mean at least 52 [16 + 15 + 12 + 7 + 2] LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons would be required (if deployed as full-strength). Current order covers 17 [9+8] squadrons. So, 35 [52-17] more LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons are needed.

The order of priority will be Western and Eastern Commands - along with J&K. And A&N Command.

If ordered in a symmetrical fashion, we could see the breakup of the LLQRM/MR-SAM orders as follows:
36 LLQRM [9 Spyder Mk.1 + 9 Spyder Mk.2 + 9 Maitri Mk.1 + 9 Maitri Mk.2]
16 MR-SAM [8 Akash Mk.1 + 8 Akash Mk.2]
--------------------------------------------------
52 LLQRM/MR-SAM squadrons for BADZ (if only covering major IAF bases)

27 LR-SAM squadrons [9 Barak-8 Mk.1 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.2 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.3] for ADGES

The Pechora Squadron strength was 31 Squadrons (source:BR IAF Section) and IIRC, the number is down to 24/25. So, of the projected number of 52 Squadrons - ~30 will be Akash SAM (various versions/avatars). Add to it the LLQRM - which will replace SA-8 in existing Squadrons in IAF.

So, we have authorized strength of ~40 SAM squadrons....newer ones will have to be raised as SAM network becomes more dense at BADZ and ADGES level.

BTW, how did you arrive at 27 LR-SAM Squadron number? thanx.

srai · Post by **srai** » 15 Oct 2010 10:51

rohitvats wrote: ...

Prior to planned induction of LR-SAM, IAF did not have missile in this category. So, anything hostile beyond 40kms was the repsonsibility of Fighters. Now with coming of LR-SAM, this will change to some extent.
...
srai wrote:...

27 LR-SAM squadrons [9 Barak-8 Mk.1 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.2 + 9 Barak-8 Mk.3] for ADGES
...

BTW, how did you arrive at 27 LR-SAM Squadron number? thanx.

As you have pointed out, IAF has not had LR-SAM previously. So this made it difficult to gauge how IAF would actually deploy (in what quantities) these LR-SAM squadrons as part of ADGES.

I just did a rough estimate and took 13 THD-1955 radar facilities as mentioned by IMINT & Analysis - The Indian SAM Network and multiplied it by 2 LR-SAM squadrons for each coverage area. If you look at the THD-1955 radar facilities as shown in the image below, they cover all the border areas stretching from the Arabian Sea to the Bay of Bengal.

Each Barak-8 LR-SAM squadron (range of 70km+) with two Combat Flights (2 batteries equivalent) would be able to cover 150km radius (if spaced between at max range). This would mean two LR-SAM squadrons would cover roughly 300km radius between them, which is roughly the THD-1955 operating range of 400km.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 15 Oct 2010 10:57

Pratyush wrote:Rohit / Kanson,

How many target illuminators does the Akash battry has.

Or does the Rajendra doubles as a target illumminator. If Rajendra is the target illuminator then how many targets it can engage simultaneously. Cause IIRC it can track 64 simultaneously, but am not clear how many it can engage simultaneously.

Kanson wrote:In a battery level/Autonomous mode, both BSR (Battery Survelliance Radar) and Rajendra Radar provide track information to the backend data processing unit. But the fire control & verification jobs are provided by Rajendra *Radar*. As per AkashSAM site, 40 simultaneous tracks from BSR and 20 tracks from Rajendra. So combine together Rajendra *System* can track 60 or so target tracks at Battery level.

It can track 60 targets but can engage 4 of them with 12 missiles.

During Multisensor Tracking a 2-D battery surveillance radar (BSR) with 360 degree coverage and a larger detection range provides track data to the multifunction, slewable, 3-D phased array radar. This is useful when a single battery of the Rajendra is detached from the group to fight alone, and early warning from the 3-D CAR is not available.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajendra_Radar

Full scan will be faster as well using BSR otherwise Rajendra can do the same job.

Pratyush wrote:The 20 of Rajendra seem to be a subset of the 40 from of BSR and not an addition of the 40 of BSR, in that case can the system actally engage 20 targets at the same time. If not, then, what is the actual number of targets that can be engaged by Akash battery.

Remember Akash is a command guidance system, So irrespective of number of targets tracked you need to upload the guidance information to the missile. Now the number of missiles that can be simultaneously guided depends upon the number of available channels which in this case are 12 per Rajendra and hence 12 missiles.

Cheers....

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Oct 2010 13:42

Remember Akash is a command guidance system, So irrespective of number of targets tracked you need to upload the guidance information to the missile. Now the number of missiles that can be simultaneously guided depends upon the number of available channels which in this case are 12 per Rajendra and hence 12 missiles.

Does it mean 12 operators?
I've seen a SA-3 being guided by a missile operator using some track balls. Is it the same or the command center can handle the automated lock on the target(Which I believe is the case)??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 15 Oct 2010 13:54

It means 12 Channels , so you can fire and guide 12 missile at 12 targets or for high probability of kill can engage 4 targets with 12 missile ( 3 per target )

Akash can operate in fully automatic or semi-auto mode so it can have operator intervention if required or just run the system in highly automated mode no operator needed.