India-US Strategic News and Discussion

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Johann
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Johann »

Mort Walker wrote:
Johann wrote: Obama has picked a loyal committee man who wont rock the boat but who can call a meeting to order and take notes. No diplomatic experience, no military experience, no intelligence experience, no law-enforcement experience. Does this mean Obama wants to take the national security strategy decisions himself, or is it that he simply doesn't want anyone to take any decisions? We shall have to see. Perhaps he feels that his appointment of Leon Panetta as Director of Central Intelligence, a man similarly lacking in relevant qualifications has been a success that ought to be imitated.
Donilon has served for several years in the State Department under the Clinton Administration. He does have government experience.
Oh yes, he has a reasonable amount of government experience, but of what kind?

Yes, he was Chief of Staff for Sec State Warren Christopher. This was not a role where he actually had to deal with the meat of policy decisions or the actual conduct of international relationships.

He is an organisation man whose field of expertise is not foreign policy, defence policy, strategy, intelligence etc. It is simply in keeping the internal machinery of government moving.

He will keep the multi-limbed beast that is US National Security talking to itself, but will he be able to lead, to synthesise and/or refine the big map of threats and opportunities and advise Obama on how best to navigate it? I have real doubts. The man is a more of a personal assistant who makes sure your meetings run on time and that every one shows up and is seated correctly. Important work, but really, shouldn't the post be something more? Why is Obama doing this? I hope its because he wants to exert more personal control, and not because he wants to diffuse responsibility.
svinayak
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Amber G. wrote:
US South asia policy and area studies does talk about promoting such distinction. It is not my words or opinion here. It is in the policy papers from the 1970
Link? Just curious what kind of authority these 'policy papers' from 1970 (once you provide a link) will have?
(And also notice that you did not EVEN qualified your sentence with 'according to policy papers of 1970'.. people have right to their opinions but not their facts)

I will give link more later. This paper should give some details about what is happening to 'Area Studies' in US academics

http://www.informaworld.com/smpp/sectio ... =713240928
Scholarship on Asia, which may have seemed irrelevant to foreign policy at one time, is essential to correcting the shallow, archaic, and unreliable information that the intelligence community relies upon. Intelligence services have depicted Islam as monolithic and antimodern, when in fact South Asian scholars have shown that it includes many modern, liberal, and progressive currents. U.S. funds support anti-Muslim and anti-Pakistani groups that undermine peace. More research is required to generate more and better knowledge to inform U.S. policy.

Fourth, scholarship on Asia is sensitive to the arbitrary, malleable, politically determined nature of borders and boundaries within South Asia. Like the Kashmir border, the entire length of the Pakistan-Afghanistan border is porous. Regions on the borderland are substantially outside central governments' control. These regions harbor conflicts that should be treated as local, not necessarily as part of the larger conflict in Afghanistan. The Taliban includes a range of groups on both sides of the border, each with its own social composition and agenda. Federally Administered Tribal Areas (FATA) and Baluchistan regions in Pakistan need effective political recognition and representation in government that will allow civilian institutions to operate more effectively.

If some years back, U.S. academia was questioning area studies, its intellectual and political value should now be clear. U.S. foreign policy toward South Asia is most likely to be successful if it is historically grounded and holistic. If artificial borders have enabled the spread of conflict, shared histories, cultures, and languages across borders provide the foundations for lasting peace.
Johann
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Johann »

Acharya wrote:
Johann wrote:
It is the idea that the Pakistani Army is a vital source of manpower to fight forces that destabilise the region and threaten America's energy interests
What about Paki Jihad between 1985 - 2001 which killed many Indians. Who is going to account for this?
Indians cannot ignore this.
Of course Indians can not and should not ignore it. However Pakistan's wars with India (with the notable exception of 1971) have been regarded by Americans as distractions from their core purpose for the PA, which is to deal with global threats to America, and regional threats to its ME energy security. India has never threatened either of those things.

Pakistan however has never been fully cooperative because beyond a certain point its interests diverge from that of the US. Pakistan wants to be the dominant regional power, and wants America to pay for it. America is only willing to pay for a security force that meets its own far less ambitious goals of blunting whatever disruptive or radical force is heading for the Gulf. So the pattern is usually that US cuts aid (after many warnings), Pakistan sulks off for a few years, and then some new threat appears and the whole thing starts again.

This is why the PRC's relationship with Pakistan (and its aid flows) are so much more stable and so much warmer than the US-Pakistani one; they can both agree that India is a common threat, and therefore Pakistan's regional ambitions are a source of co-operation rather than friction.

Pakistan was not the fount of Revolutionary Marxism, or Militant Arab Nationalism, or piracy, but this time it is different. Pakistan is the epicenter of the Global Jihad, and the epicenter of proliferation concerns, and so for the first time America must confront the reality that their provider of regional security is also their provider of global and regional insecurity. Its a difficult adjustment, but it will be digested because Global Jihad is going to be hanging around Af-Pak for the medium term.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

^^^Acharyaji - Will wait for the link.
Meanwhile thanks for piece, I am sure it is interesting, but I hope you agree that:
1. That (specially the line you underlined) is author's viewpoint /recommendation .. (Nothing more)
2. It has NOTHING to support (at least directly) the part you claimed (and which I quoted) in my message.

Correct?
(Will wait for further link)
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

Johann,

That was my point to the original news story about Donilon being promoted to NSA. Donilon is Biden's and Rahm's man, although Rahm is busy securing Chicago for Obama come 2012, so Biden will have influence on policy not only to AfPak, but to India-US relations as well. We know that Biden's view of Indians is that of those running the local Dunkin' Donuts in Dover, Delaware.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

munna wrote:
Amber G. wrote:No truth in that, Western media (or even eastern media), of course, use these terms all the time. As to the opinion that it is 'promoted by US' etc.. my opinion is that such opinion is propagated by narrow minded insecure people. (Of course, no personal disrespect intended).
Well this can be replied by an ad hominem attack suffixed by a "no personal disrespect intended". But let us move beyond discussing "mentalities" broad or narrow!
You know what Mr Amber? If people feel insecure then they have a right to do so. We have seen our friends, acquaintances and relatives coming to harm or dying at the altar of foreign sponsored/stoked sub-nationalism. Or do you suggest that nothing ever happened? Reminds me of a recent verdict by Allahabad HC! Pahh
You have right to your opinions, but:
1. There is No 'ad hominem attack'. Sorry if you are offended. (But really let Acharyaji speak for himself)

2. What 'foreign sponsored sub-nationalism you are talking about - I am particularly interested in which IS related to discussion at hand... How would you relate ... say - I identify myself as, say 'Jain American' .. and media reports it as such.. do you really think that Indian people are so powerless or clueless that it will play outsiders game? (Let us discuss Allahbad HC, or other un-related topics, in appropriate thread(s)

Anyway .. people are free to believe and do what they wish. My (hopefully) last thought on the subject, unless someone again brings it up. :)
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ShivaS »

One does not have to search for proof, just read news papers or read histroy.
US in Indian Sub continent has been more problem than Pakistan or PRC itself.
It promoted PRC TSP nexus to avenge Vietnam defeat. Then Blinked at PRC and TSP combine to develop Nukes and missiles proliferation. Yes Indians were dispensable and collateral damage to its goal. Yes one can also say no Harm was meant to India, But harm is felt wheter intenteded or not.

To feign any ignorance of US and UK directly hurting Indian citizens is being out right dishonest and decietful. Well UK and US are now seeing the blow back, what goes round comes back. If Johann wants to continue his top spinners even after so many years in BRF is nothing but proof that he is bad History student, so are others who are moving circles for proof. Watch My Name is Earl reruns to understand bad karma :rotfl:
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Amber G. wrote:
RajeshA wrote:Indian is good, Indian-American is good, Sikh is good, Gujarati is good, but not Sikh-American, or Gujarati-American.
Why?
Because the sub-nationalism you speak of, e.g. Punjabi, Gujarati, is something that exists in the wider context of your Indianness, and not your Americanness. You are trying to make a bridge between an Indian sub-nationalism, say Punjabi, and American Nationalism, by jumping over the Indian context in which it exists. That is an undermining of your Indian identity.

In the context of India, you may be a Punjabi. In the context of America you are an Indian immigrant, hence an Indian-American.
Amber G. wrote:(Also, Sikhism is a religion and not a person from a state )
When one speaks of religions, why doesn't one hear Catholic-Americans or Protestant-Americans. One hears only Catholics in America, or Protestants in America, or American Catholics or American Protestants and that too when something is being expressed for an audience outside the country. In USA itself, one only uses Catholics or Protestants. So why use Hindu-American or Sikh-Americans? Why not say American Sikhs or American Hindus?

When you use Sikh-American, you are concatenating a religious persuasion with a national identity to form a singular composite identity. The last term however tells whether the composite term is going to be a faith affiliation or a national identity. In the case of Sikh-American you are creating a subnationalist identity, which collides with the other sub-nationalist identity of Indian-American. In the case of American Sikhs, one is talking about Americans who have the religious persuasion of Sikhism. This would be used only in a context which relates to faith and not to your subnationalism.

Hope it helps!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Johann »

ShivaS wrote:It promoted PRC TSP nexus to avenge Vietnam defeat. ... If Johann wants to continue his top spinners even after so many years in BRF is nothing but proof that he is bad History student, so are others who are moving circles for proof.
Shiva S, perhaps it is you has failed to pay attention to history after many years on BRF

China and Pakistan's tie up happened in 1963, the immediate aftermath of the Sino-Indian war of 1962. This was at a time when the US and UK were airlifting weapons to India and training ITBF and SSB to resist Chinese incursions. It was also a time when the PRC and the US were bitter enemies, with the Chinese routinely trying to shoot down American spy-planes, and the US contemplating a pre-emptive strike against the PRC's nuclear facilities.

US direct involvement Vietnam began in 1964 (under Johnson), and ended in 1973. Mao's decision to court the U.S. (under Nixon) began in 1969 after the Sino-Soviet conflict escalated, and culminated in Nixon's visit in 1972. The fall of South Vietnam took place in 1975.

Its such a pity that real history is so complicated, and fails to wrap itself in to neat little packages that match our contemporary problems, isn't it?
Well UK and US are now seeing the blow back, what goes round comes back...Watch My Name is Earl reruns to understand bad karma :rotfl:
If 3,000 casualties on 9/11 and 56 casualties on 7/7 are the result of Anglo-American evil, what evil must India have committed to receive all of the thousands of casualties it has endured from Pakistan's proxy warfare? That's a thoroughly offensive thought isn't it? Perhaps we should be more careful about invoking weighty concepts like karma and trying to tie it to nation-states?
Last edited by Johann on 13 Oct 2010 00:39, edited 1 time in total.
hnair
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

"Indian-American who follows Sikhism" cannot be shortened to 'Sikh-American", if one follows America's mainstream naming styles of a group of people attached to "American". For example, I am yet to hear of a Vodoo-American or Presbyterian-American. So obviously their naming convention is based on nationality of origin not religious affiliations.

Some Sikh brothers of Indian origin got swayed by the claptrap from Pakis and their state supporters in North America, in the past. That did not pan out, thanks to efforts of successive Indian govts. It is from these sources that one hears a push for a national identity based on religion for "Indian-Americans who follows Sikhism". And these sources would not exist even for a day without state support and protection.

This article might be harmless and one off. That does not mean the threat of American media lemmings following a politically correct sounding term is not there. If it catches on and we have to raise protest later on, it will be painful to all Indians. So this has to be keenly watched.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

If it catches on and we have to raise protest later on, it will be painful to all Indians. So this has to be keenly watched.
Why wait? Costs will be less when issues are nipped in the bud. If we allow it to blossom, then solutions will become expensive.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by hnair »

SwamyG wrote:
If it catches on and we have to raise protest later on, it will be painful to all Indians. So this has to be keenly watched.
Why wait? Costs will be less when issues are nipped in the bud. If we allow it to blossom, then solutions will become expensive.
Absolutely. I think that is why others including me has posted on this.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

RajeshA:
When one speaks of religions, why doesn't one hear Catholic-Americans or Protestant-Americans. One hears only Catholics in America, or Protestants in America, or American Catholics or American Protestants and that too when something is being expressed for an audience outside the country. In USA itself, one only uses Catholics or Protestants. So why use Hindu-American or Sikh-Americans? Why not say American Sikhs or American Hindus?
But ..One does hear 'Catholic-Americans' or 'Jewish Americans' etc...(even when audience is American)
Perhaps American Catholics or American Jain may be more popular/apt (one is more likely to call oneself an American Physicist rather than the other way around - though there is a magazine called 'Scientific American :) ).. but "Catholic American" or "Jewish American" are not that uncommon terms in use. (Simple Google search will get many hits like :http://www.pbs.org/jewishamericans/.. I have heard the debate before too (more in connection of word order in 'Indian Muslims"..but IMO, it is all in the eye of the beholder, and I do think people make much more out of it, then it deserves. ..

We are all getting in a twist, because WH celebrated Guru Nanak Jayanti, .....Some wanted to invite some one to Golden temple etc ..Honestly I am really surprised by all this discussion. I think we are seeing enemy where it is not... I certainly use Hindu-American (or American Hindu) when it is proper to use the term and certainly it does not mean any evil design on my part.

Hope this helps.

One important point, wrt to this, to put in perspective, in past decades, US Census did not have 'Indian American' category. 2010 census did. In past this created some rather bad results and inconsistencies. (In category of race, , many wrote 'other' or 'Hindu race', (even sunni, shia race! ) .. and many who were originated from India were not counted as such... (No it wasn't a CT, it was just a case of bad use of classification :) )

For me, trying to use 'xyz American' to deny being called an 'Indian American' will be wrong but informal use of 'xyz American' in itself will not bother me.
P.S. Hnair:
I am yet to hear of a .... Presbyterian-American
Check out: Presbyterian American Church .. or just google 'Jewish American'...:)
Last edited by Amber G. on 13 Oct 2010 02:14, edited 1 time in total.
svinayak
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by svinayak »

Amber G. wrote:^^^Acharyaji - Will wait for the link.
Meanwhile thanks for piece, I am sure it is interesting, but I hope you agree that:
1. That (specially the line you underlined) is author's viewpoint /recommendation .. (Nothing more)
2. It has NOTHING to support (at least directly) the part you claimed (and which I quoted) in my message.

Correct?
(Will wait for further link)
It is not correct. She is confirming that the area studies is a policy of the various dept and it has a problem


http://www.rediff.com/news/2003/dec/08rajiv.htm
Does South Asian Studies Undermine India?
Role of US Universities in India's Brand Positioning

Universities have a high leverage in influencing American foreign policy and domestic attitudes towards minority cultures, for the following reasons:

1. Media: Universities influence the media by educating the next generation of journalists, and professors are often quoted and interviewed as 'experts.'

2. Government: The government is influenced because i. think tanks are usually linked to universities, ii. government staff is trained in universities' International Studies departments, iii. the US Commission on International Religious Freedom uses professors to help determine which countries must be red-flagged for sanctions for violating religious freedom, and iv. the US Congress has hearings on human rights. Furthermore, Amnesty, Human Rights Watch, the International Court, institutions of the European Union and United Nations, and other transnational groups call upon academic scholars to testify and help formulate policy.

3. Business: Business schools' degree programs and executive seminars inform corporate strategies on international activities, and professors influence globalization and investment directions.

4. Education: Colleges train schoolteachers. Many textbooks and reference works are written by professors.

5. Indian-American identities: Indian students' identities are shaped in their formative years in colleges, because this is when they first leave home. Young Indian intellectuals often follow the footsteps of Western scholars.

To illustrate this, consider a major issue today where academic scholars could be helping India. This is the outsourcing controversy in the USA -- as to whether it is good or bad for the US. The deafening silence of most scholars of South Asian Studies is noteworthy. Yet, the very same scholars have lobbied against India's human rights record at various public and policymaking forums and in campus seminars. This is to be contrasted with the pro-Pakistan appearances on US television and in media interviews by a predictable set of scholars, both Pakistanis and their Indian colleagues. (Note that the business schools have supported India's case for outsourcing, but not the South Asian Studies departments.)

The study of India is spread across several disciplines. Each discipline has its own standard filters, often built on postcolonial Marxism, which determine the scholars selected, what topics and methods they use, and the meta-narratives they apply. The disciplines in which India Studies are found are:

1. Anthropology that uses the lens of caste, cows and curry exotica, often based on unscientific dogmas about class conflicts.

2. History that continues to be based on recycling colonial and/or Marxist frameworks in many cases.

3. South Asian Studies (often an umbrella for all disciplines to be brought together) which is shaped by US foreign policy and focuses on nukes, Kashmir, terrorism, internal conflicts and divide-and-rule ideas.

4. Religious Studies which is based on the use of mainly non-Indian categories. This discipline is witnessing a recent trend to interpret Indian culture using Freudian theories to eroticize, denigrate and trivialize Indian spirituality. For a recent major flare-up concerning the academic denigration of Ganesha, and the Diaspora response to it, see: http://www.sulekha.com/expressions/colu ... cid=305890

5. Media and Journalism perpetuates many stereotypes created by the other disciplines.

6. Literature and English project the narratives of English language authors from India, whose often self-alienated identities are hardly positive or genuine representations of Indian culture. Unfortunately, many intellectuals in Indian are emulating these standards.

Each discipline has its own conferences, journals, chairs, 'insiders' and 'gatekeepers,' and established funding sources. India Studies is largely funded and controlled by the following institutions: 1. Western (mainly US) universities, 2. US foundations (both religious and secular), 3. various Western academic associations for the humanities, 4. US State Department and National Endowment for Humanities, 5. Christian seminaries, 6. Democratic and Republican think tanks, and 7. Western human rights institutions.

South Asian Studies

The activities of scholars in each relevant discipline need to be studied. For example, there are over 500 scholars formally associated with South Asian Studies in American universities, and over half of them are of Indian origin, having been carefully groomed to fit the intellectual mold.

Yet, no Indian institution has systematically tracked the topics that the South Asian Studies scholars select and why, who funds this work, and the trends that underlie the theses of the past 25 years. Professional managers in corporate America would never justify investment in a field without first having answered such basic questions. They would be alert and suspicious to the keen interest shown in them by other players in the industry. Indian-American donors need to be more vigilant.

India, like China, deserves to be studied in its own right. It is one of the five or so great civilizations of humankind and world centers of the future. 'South Asian' studies often limit India by bracketing it with 'Pakistan' -- as mirror-images and/or as opposites -- and naturally gravitate to conflict rather than studying India in its own right. (Pakistan also deserves to be given a chance to develop a stand-alone identity that is not dependent upon India, positively or negatively.)

The very grouping known as 'South Asia' is a US State Department construction under a foreign policy initiative known as 'area studies' started during the Cold War. However, Indians may prefer to identify with Southeast Asia rather than South Asia. Shouldn't Indians make this critical choice of classification and framework rather than being dictated to by foreign think tanks and academics? In this regard, China controls its brand management, while India is simply being led
.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ Thanks for taking time to post the article.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

hnair wrote: Absolutely. I think that is why others including me has posted on this.
Yet at the same time, we cannot make noise at the drop of a hat. Or is that how the World works? On second thoughts and thinking about this further, I think your approach is better to wait and monitor, after all context matters too. The term was used with reference to a visit to Amritsar and Golden Temple - a religious place for Sikhs. So the author is probably connecting vote banks politics of America. But for us Indians, such terms obviously take us to the Khalistan movement times. Is the terms American Sikhs better, probably yes. Better to turn on the radar.
Last edited by SwamyG on 13 Oct 2010 20:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by amdavadi »

we will see lot of changes in masaland in next 5-10 years.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Pranav »

Neshant wrote:If Ron Paul is not in the running for the 2012 presidency, I'm not voting either D/R.

The surest way to not affect change is to keep voting the same D/R combo back into power. In the end both are controlled by the same crooks from the banking areana.
Ron Paul is another Pied Piper ... he is connected with the von Mises Institute, which is a tool of the usual suspects. When you own the gold mines, having currency based on gold is a great idea.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Amber G. wrote:But ..One does hear 'Catholic-Americans' or 'Jewish Americans' etc...(even when audience is American)
Jewish people consider themselves not just a faith but also an ethnic group. So them calling themselves Jewish-Americans is not that surprising.
Amber G. wrote:We are all getting in a twist, because WH celebrated Guru Nanak Jayanti, .....Some wanted to invite some one to Golden temple etc ..
Did you know Friedrich II introduced potatoes to Germany in the 1750s?!
Amber G. wrote:Honestly I am really surprised by all this discussion. I think we are seeing enemy where it is not...
All theej nero-minded peepel!
Amber G. wrote:I certainly use Hindu-American (or American Hindu) when it is proper to use the term and certainly it does not mean any evil design on my part.
I call cats dogs and dogs cats all the time, and I too certainly have no evil designs!
Amber G. wrote:For me, trying to use 'xyz American' to deny being called an 'Indian American' will be wrong but informal use of 'xyz American' in itself will not bother me.
Informal use of certain terms establishes itself and becomes formal and accepted giving rise to a new mentality and outlook.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

"South Asia" is a nomenclature used to undermine India's supreme position in any valuation in the IOR region.Instead of using the terminology "South Asia",I always advocate the use of the "Indian Sub-Continent" instead.If one remembers right,this was the way in which our region used to be described in centuries before,especially by archaeologists,historians,etc.Mrs.Gandhi also hated the phrase "Third World",saying that there were no "third class" countries,only "rich and poor","developed" or "developing".Perhaps some of the poorest could even be termed as "underdeveloped".I was asked just a day ago by some N.Am. friends as to how the states of India came about.I asked them to go back to studying ancient Indian history with the Indo-Gangetic civilisation,the myth of an Aryan "invasion",as if all India's ancient civilisation and knowledge had a "foreign",read European origin!
If you read the book "Black Athena",by the celebrated Palestinian author and historian Edward Said,shows how so-called Greek culture and scientific knoowledge was actually more Middle-East and Asian in origin!

Here is a snippet about his most famous book,"Orientalism" from Wik.
Orientalism is the 1978 book by Edward Said that has been highly influential in postcolonial studies. In the book, Said writes that "Orientalism" is a constellation of false assumptions underlying Western attitudes toward the Middle East. This body of scholarship is marked by a "subtle and persistent Eurocentric prejudice against Arabo-Islamic peoples and their culture."[1] He argued that a long tradition of romanticized images of Asia and the Middle East in Western culture had served as an implicit justification for European and the American colonial and imperial ambitions. Just as fiercely, he denounced the practice of Arab elites who internalized the US and British orientalists' ideas of Arabic culture.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ramana »

Philip, Agree with the gist of your post but Black Athena was written by Martin Bernal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Athena

BTW, Kaushal has yahoo discussion group going on on "Greek intellectualism".

And more BTW, my son was reading a quote from Edward Said's "Orientalism" last night and commented how Said is obsessed by the Anglo-French West suppressing Islamic Middle East. He is least bothered by Dutch supressing the Indonesians, the British in India or the conglomerate in China. His point is those were decadent societes ripe for plunder and its aceptable what happened.

Said's insight is that A-F West went after Islamic ME for Islam is a heresy and could eventually overwhelm them unless rolled back and divided. The nation states of ME are a way to divide the ummah!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Pulikeshi »

Philip wrote:"South Asia" is a nomenclature used to undermine India's supreme position in any valuation in the IOR region.Instead of using the terminology "South Asia",I always advocate the use of the "Indian Sub-Continent" instead.If one remembers right,this was the way in which our region used to be described in centuries before,especially by archaeologists,historians,etc.
Irrespective of what the nomenclature was or is, one thing that India has not done is
to define how it sees the world or the world's largest continent 'Asia'.

My humble suggestion is to use Indian terms even as English is the language.
Consider 'Asia' if you stare at the map long enough, one sees it accounts for Europe to
Far East with everything in between. Here, India could see a Western Brihat-Asia (Europe),
Near-West Brihat-Asia (Middle East), Central Brihat-Asia (Indian Subcontinent),
Eastern Brihat-Asia (China and South East Asia).

Another example is the Indian Ocean Region. Could this be Indian Sanskriti Region?
Perhaps, Indian Samudra Region?

Now, one need not be married to how this looks above, but my point is the largest
continent on Earth, ought to be looked at from an Indian perspective.
Even if some of these terms appear jarring at first...
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

RajeshA - This may become OT ( May be further discussion in Nukkad?) but let me briefly respond to your points (particularly which are relevant in present context) and clarify/reiterate my points:

1. You, said, for the context, let me quote you:
..why doesn't one hear Catholic-Americans or Protestant-Americans. One hears only Catholics in America, or Protestants in America, or American Catholics or American Protestants and that too when something is being expressed for an audience outside the country. In USA itself, one only uses Catholics or Protestants. So why use Hindu-American or Sikh-Americans? Why not say American Sikhs or American Hindus?
..


What I said, (If you really read what I said) was, that terms which you implied 'one doesn't hear are actually not that uncommon. The "Presbyterian-American" (implying that it is never used) was actually mentioned by Hnair..and that's why I gave a link. Did you even try to google or verify by other means if what I was saying is true or not, before nitpicking about an example I gave. In any case, your diatribe about "Jewish people consider themselves not just a faith but also an ethnic group." is not only missing the point but is demonstrably false. There are US citizens, who are (call themselves as) 'Indian Jews', 'Russian Jews', 'African Jews' and so on..American Jews (or Jewish American) term is fairly common to describe them too.
In any case, the point was 'Sikh Americans' or 'American Sikhs' are terms which, whether one approves it or not, are in common use.

2. Wrt to your "1750s Potatoes", I do not get your point, but the story which started all this was about POTUS visiting Amritsar.

3. Particular in the context of the story where the term was used: As to your appeal that
All people of Indian descent in USA should categorically reject any other means of denoting them ...
As an Indian descent in USA, I simply reject it (your appeal). You (and others) are, of course, free to make such appeal, as I am free to opine that it ( such appeal) is silly. This, BTW, is no means to say, one should always or often use that term (instead of 'Indian American') or the use (when other term is proper) is more desirable... it is just that I do not see nefarious design, just because, some one used it.

Hope that helps.
Last edited by Amber G. on 13 Oct 2010 21:05, edited 1 time in total.
SwamyG
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

RajeshA wrote:All people of Indian descent in USA should categorically reject any other means of denoting them other than as Indian Americans. Any sub-categorization should be without the American suffix at the end.
Not all share that view point. Even the "Hindu Americans". http://www.hafsite.org/about/who_we_are
The Hindu American Foundation is not affiliated with any religious or political organizations or entities. HAF seeks to serve Hindu Americans across all sampradayas (Hindu religious traditions) regardless of race, color, national origin, citizenship, caste, gender, sexual orientation, age and/or disability.
It primarily consists of Indian origin people.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

^^^ Yes, and BTW they were also maligned by so called 'experts' and ' Secular Indian patriots ( I mean 'South-Asian-Progressives').. (who also made much ado about what prefix should be used) as 'Hindutva extremist' .. all this very well documented in California Text book case of IDRF saga.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by SwamyG »

Amber G: Yup, I was following the California Text book case for a little while. Witzel & Farmer are some of the best comedians we have in the West. While people can call whatever they like , it has be acknowledged that powers could use labels for their own machinations. And India has to be wary and not be caught off-guard. I think that is the message from BRFites.

Let us not cry "tiger" when we see any stripes; and let us not ignore all stripes as Zebras. I think it has been a good discussion :-)
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Amber G. wrote:RajeshA - This may become OT ( May be further discussion in Nukkad?) but let me briefly respond to your points (particularly which are relevant in present context) and clarify/reiterate my points:

1. You, said, for the context, let me quote you:
..why doesn't one hear Catholic-Americans or Protestant-Americans. One hears only Catholics in America, or Protestants in America, or American Catholics or American Protestants and that too when something is being expressed for an audience outside the country. In USA itself, one only uses Catholics or Protestants. So why use Hindu-American or Sikh-Americans? Why not say American Sikhs or American Hindus?
..


What I said, (If you really read what I said) was, that terms which you implied 'one doesn't hear are actually not that uncommon. The "Presbyterian-American" (implying that it is never used) was actually mentioned by Hnair.
Here is a Listings Link for the link you offered: Presbyterian Church!

There is a Presbyterian American Church and an American Presbyterian Church listed. The latter is the Church in America. There is of course also the Presbyterian Church in America. So both the churches comply with the naming rules I mentioned.

The Presbyterian American Church is in Montreal and Paris as was found by Google - both French speaking places where the adjectives have a different order.
Amber G. wrote:Your diatribe about "Jewish people consider themselves not just a faith but also an ethnic group." is not only missing the point but is demonstrably false. There are US citizens, who are (call themselves as) 'Indian Jews', 'Russian Jews', 'African Jews' and so on..American Jews (or Jewish American) term is fairly common to describe them too.
In any case, the point was 'Sikh Americans' or 'American Sikhs' are terms which, whether one approves it or not, are in common use.
When one speaks of Jews, the identity can be interchangeably used as either referring to their faith or their ethnicity. So it doesn't matter how they use it - as a prefix or as a suffix. When they say X-Jew (Indian Jew, Russian Jew, etc) they are highlighting their faith, when they use Jewish-American, they are highlighting their sub-ethnicity - Jewish, besides their nationality as American. Both ways are permissible for Jews in America.

So what is "not only missing the point but is demonstrably false."
Amber G. wrote:2. Wrt to your "1750s Potatoes", I do not get your point, but the story which started all this was about POTUS visiting Amritsar.
I also do not get the point, where you interjected in our discussion on the semantics of naming sub-ethnicities a matter that is immaterial to it.
Amber G. wrote:3. Particular in the context of the story where the term was used: As to your appeal that
All people of Indian descent in USA should categorically reject any other means of denoting them ...
As an Indian descent in USA, I simply reject it. You (and others) are, of course, free to make such appeal, as I am free to opine that it ( such appeal) is silly.

Hope that helps.
[/quote]

Sure you are free to call all cats dogs! You're a free man and free to descend as much as you want in USA (Just a joke, couldn't help the pun)! 'Semantic Rules of Naming Sub-Nationalities and Usage of Qualifiers for Faiths and Sects' have however been explained. :mrgreen:

Hope that helps.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

SwamyG wrote:
RajeshA wrote:All people of Indian descent in USA should categorically reject any other means of denoting them other than as Indian Americans. Any sub-categorization should be without the American suffix at the end.
Not all share that view point. Even the "Hindu Americans". http://www.hafsite.org/about/who_we_are
The Hindu American Foundation is not affiliated with any religious or political organizations or entities. HAF seeks to serve Hindu Americans across all sampradayas (Hindu religious traditions) regardless of race, color, national origin, citizenship, caste, gender, sexual orientation, age and/or disability.
It primarily consists of Indian origin people.
Well we SDREs cannot speak that good English anyway, so ....

But I do understand the need to hang out the primary message in the beginning - 'Hindu', and the second message - 'Well we are catering to those in America', at the end. It is for the sake of visibility also. But in that case I would suggest - Hindus in America Foundation but there is loss of adjectivity, and if one says American Hindus Foundation, then there is a loss of the primary message, and if one says Foundation for American Hindus, then it becomes too boring! Bwaat to dooo!

I am out of this discussion!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

RajeshA - Just the last time.. pointing out the obvious..

1. The point WAS that the term which you said 'ONE NEVER SEES' is not that uncommon.
I see, that you have not even acknowledged that point. The link I gave, just an example, and you are going through all the silly details (where and what that particular link takes you too etc..) Don't get restricted by just the link I gave, or mock me, just try your own research.. point is do you still standby the statement 'One never sees...' statement. yes or no?

2. What is demonstrably false in your long explanation of 'Jewish is ethnicity' is not borne out by standard definition and use of the term. Again., just an example to help you: (Check out the US census forms - or Dictionary definition of 'ethnicity' - A Jewish faith person migrated from India's ethnicity is Indian, not Jewish).

3. In any way, aim of this discussion, at least from my side, is not to mock you. It is just that the particular appeal which you made is, just being rejected by me. Sorry if it bothers you. Pity that all you get from this discussion is, to "Sure you are free to call all cats dogs!" type puns.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Cosmo_R »

I have to agree with AmberG.'s take on this. It is not sub-nationalism if you define yourself as a Sikh-American (unless of course you one of the Khalistanis) because you can also simultaneously define yourself as an Indo-American. The first relates to religion and the second to geographic origin.

The Hindu American Foundation's primary mission is to serve as an umbrella group for Hindu interests in America. For example, one of their recent initiatives was to raise awareness of Hindus being denied aid after the floods in Pakistan. Rather difficult to do within USINPAC.

Just googling tells you that Americans define themselves in many ways including Jewish Americans, Catholic Americans, Muslim Americans etc.

Why the fuss every time time the word 'Hindu' comes up?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

AmberG ji,

I apologize to you for the puns.

My message was simple: Break up of Indian ethnic people in America into Sikh-Americans, Gujarati-Americans, Punjabi-Americans, etc reflects on the Sikhs, Gujaratis, Punjabis in India, that Indian people identify themselves much more strongly with their faith and sub-nationality and not with their nationality - Indian, and as such do not use the term Indian-American.

Do the Chinese people ever use Cantonese-American, Manchu-American, etc. No they don't. They only use Chinese American, because they identify themselves with the nation of China.

As far as Sikh-American and Hindu-American terminology is concerned, all I am saying is that, semantically speaking it denotes a sub-nationality within America, and not a faith group in America. For it to denote Sikhs living in America, one would have to use American Sikhs or American Hindus. In India we use Indian Muslims and not Muslim Indians.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by ShyamSP »

RajeshA wrote:AmberG ji,

I apologize to you for the puns.

My message was simple: Break up of Indian ethnic people in America into Sikh-Americans, Gujarati-Americans, Punjabi-Americans, etc reflects on the Sikhs, Gujaratis, Punjabis in India, that Indian people identify themselves much more strongly with their faith and sub-nationality and not with their nationality - Indian, and as such do not use the term Indian-American.

Do the Chinese people ever use Cantonese-American, Manchu-American, etc. No they don't. They only use Chinese American, because they identify themselves with the nation of China.

As far as Sikh-American and Hindu-American terminology is concerned, all I am saying is that, semantically speaking it denotes a sub-nationality within America, and not a faith group in America. For it to denote Sikhs living in America, one would have to use American Sikhs or American Hindus. In India we use Indian Muslims and not Muslim Indians.
Chinese also distinguish themselves by subgroups but looking from outside from our angle they are Chinese Americans. Same way any outsider categorizes Indian Americans as Indians/Indian Americans/Asian Indians.

Looking at day-to-day culture, Indians describe themselves as belonging to various subgroups. For my own cultural part, most of the time I'm Hindu or Telugu than Indian. This identity order becomes clearer from the reflection of own kids and how they associate culturally.

==
Hindu American gives better identity so some junk groups of psecs and Pakis can be avoided. All sort of junk also falls under Indian/Desi/South Asian identity. I avoid the South Asian tag, in writing strike it out and write as Indian and correct others that I'm not South Asian when addressed.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

GeorgeTown's Howard B. Schaffer's (veteran (Ret). Foreign Service officer/diplomat etc) interview in Rediff:

May be interesting to some:
'America's options are very limited' (Obama will not mention Kashmir)
One excerpt (see link for more):
I guess especially with President Obama's visit to India in a few weeks, the Pakistanis would see the utility in redoubling their efforts to play up the Kashmir situation and try to make the argument that this should be on the agenda, etc?

Absolutely, and I've heard it said -- the fact that Obama's visit to India incentivises those who want to see action on Kashmir.

Do you think that Obama during his visit will bring up the situation in Kashmir or do you believe he will scrupulously eschew any mention on Kashmir?

I don't believe he will bring it up in any serious way, and certainly not in public. He is likely in his discussions with the Indian leadership to take very much the same position that Bill Burns took recently. There may be an expression of sympathy and that we hope that you will be able to deal with this and that we hope that you will be able to re-enter your dialogue with the Pakistanis, covering all matters including Kashmir. But, basically, Obama will stick to the line that this is an internal Indian matter
<snip>
The Time magazine interview {Presidential campaign where importance of India resolving the Kashmir, was uttered} happened very early on and we can certainly trace it as far back as our decision not to press the issue of (Richard) Holbrooke becoming involved in India-Pakistan affairs -- that his mandate would be confined to Afghanistan and Pakistan and would have nothing to do with India, hence would have nothing to do with Kashmir. And, the administration has stuck to that. As a result, what Obama said to Joe Klein in that famous interview -- that position has been abandoned..

......
He {NSA SS Menon who rubbished the linkage between solving Kashmir situation will solve Jihadi's network problem too} was absolutely right. That contention of a linkage is difficult to maintain.
<snip>
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Mort Walker »

^^^Read Woodward's recent book. Holbrooke's credibility is little within the administration and he'll soon be going out.

Apparently in private Holbrooke asked BO to address him as 'Richard' since his wife doesn't like the name 'Dick' and Obama thought it was odd and mentioned it to his inner political circle (Axlerod & Rahm) who made it a joke around the White House and it got back to Holbrooke who was upset about it.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by abhishek_sharma »

Obama warns of 'education arms race' with China, India

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/worl ... 745594.cms
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Amber G. »

^^(A slightly strange heading by TOI - reference to China/India was just incidental - referring to the world in general - The quotes are:
[quote]There's an educational arms race taking place around the world right now -- from China to Germany, to India to South Korea. Cutting back on education would amount to unilateral disarmament. We can't afford to do that ....
[/quote
(Bet.. ready to see Pak edits blaming US for discrimination .. as its name was not mention with India.. :D
Last edited by Amber G. on 14 Oct 2010 10:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by RajeshA »

Unilateral Disarmament! :lol:

That sounds like as if Obama is saying all the countries in the world should become illiterate and stupid and not just America alone!
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

"Education arms race"? What form of substance abuse is the Messiah on? I am apalled at his microscopic intellect,when he views "education" as a weapon,that too a "war" with India,China,etc! He conveniently forgets the massive number of current and former Indian/Asian students in the US,who have made huge contributions to the US's scientific global leadership and continue to do so.The "brain drain" from India and elsewhere is what has kept the US supreme as a scientific and technological superpower for decades.The stats about the number of Ph.Ds awarded to Indians/Asians vs US students in the past should've enlightened the Messiah ,who seems to be viewing all nations who are doing well economically and progressing well as potential "enemies" of the US!

Education is for all mankind and knowledge is to be universal."Educating" the illiterate,as many are trying to do in India,is a fundamental responsibility for the govt. and the people.I am exceptionally happy to see a new trend in India ,where a few enlightened foundations,soem with international connections, are trying to setup/have set up,independent educational institutions which will have a high standard,aiming to offer the best facilities for the poorest of the poor and underpriviliged and not for the rich.These foundations are self-financing and will not tax the govt. for funding for the children/students studying in their insitutions.
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"It promoted PRC TSP nexus to avenge Vietnam defeat."

But that is opportunism and perversity to the nth degree, because wasn't it Red China that was supporting the Vietnamese communists?
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Re: India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Post by Varoon Shekhar »

"This is why the PRC's relationship with Pakistan (and its aid flows) are so much more stable and so much warmer than the US-Pakistani one; they can both agree that India is a common threat,..."

What exactly is the 'threat' from India to these two countries? One can discount economic threat, since there isn't much trade and investment between India and Pakistan, and forget about an economic threat to China from India. You can forget about a military take-over by India of either of these countries, or of significant sections of their territory. If one were to articulate to an international audience about a real threat from India, what would one say, that would make that audience think, "Okay, these guys don't have the greatest regimes, but they do have some genuine heartfelt concerns about a threat". Sponsorship of terrorism by India in China is a non-starter; in Pakistan, hardly anyone in the world really believes there is any serious Indian involvement in terrorism in Pakistan, not even in Baluchistan. So really, the threat is ideological and philosophical- neither Pakistan nor China want democracy, freedom, pluralism, openness, tolerance, self-questioning and self-criticism, and a reduction of the role of the military in their respective countries.

Because when you turn the question around, India is very credible in speaking of threats from China and Pakistan, economic, military and terroristic.
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