Managing Chinese Threat

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Arihant
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Arihant »

Rising giant sparks growing pains

Hamish McDonald, Sydney Morning Herald, October 16th, 2010.
TWO outfits have stood up to the might of China in the past week. One was the Nobel Prize committee in Oslo. The other was the Woollahra Municipal Council in Sydney.

...
On Tuesday night Woollahra's councillors voted down an application by the reputed son of former Chinese vice-president Zeng Qinghong, a powerful Shanghai faction leader in the Chinese Communist Party, to knock down an old harbourside mansion, bought for $32 million, and replace it with a palatial modern one.

Futile gestures? Beijing may now have more face invested in keeping Liu locked up, and rejecting his reformist ideas as a ''Western'' imposition. Mr and Mrs Zeng of Point Piper will no doubt proceed to the Land and Environment Court, win their case, and land the council with a large legal bill.

....
The other is that his knowledge of China is not very deep. Last year's labour turmoil in its coastal factory belts showed, according to experts such as Ross Garnaut, that China has already reached a turning point away from the export model that has allowed it to amass huge foreign reserves. It is already hitting a demographic wall that may slow its growth rate sharply. Its defence technology is largely imported (from Russia) or at a very tentative stage of development.

India's growth rate is meanwhile ramping up close to China's, its population profile is much younger, and it has a more advanced navy and air force - though its economy is still only a quarter the size of China's.
.....
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by shiv »

ramana wrote:Nightwatch 15 Oct 2010

LINK

It's been a long time since I read so much bullshitting.

China "wants to be seen" as USA's equal. "Wants to be seen" is a far cry from getting there. Technologically, politcally and socially - China is nowhere near.

But the most laughable crap in the article is about China's "interest" in non proliferation and combating terrorism. I tell you these Chicoms show Pakiness to an amazing degree. I see China behaving towards the US exactly the way Pakistan behaves towards India. All we need to complete the circle is for India to behave that way towards China :roll:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 16, 2010
By Pranay Sharma
Eastward Ho!: Outlook India
So what kind of role is India likely to play? “India will do a soft balancing against China,” Michael Yehuda, author and professor emeritus of the London School of Economics, told Outlook. “India does not want China as its enemy but New Delhi also wants to deepen its relations with the East and Southeast Asian countries.” This requires tightrope walking—engaging other countries in the region, not wanting to isolate China, and yet ensuring the sea lanes don’t get roiled because of the choppy waters of international relations. India will have to attempt such calibrations, says Yehuda, because even as “it grows, its economic and military power is much less than that of China’s”. And, therefore, he predicts, India will eschew the option of sending its navy to join the fleet against China.

But if China continues to behave aggressively in East Asia in pursuit of its own parochial nationalist interests, says Yehuda, it will inevitably evoke a counter-reaction—and that’s when India will have to be careful. “India should not be drawn into an anti-China coalition. Rather, it should balance resistance to egregious Chinese moves with maintaining cooperative relations with Beijing in those sectors where interests overlap,” Yehuda said.
Another article espousing China's freedom to take down Asian countries one by one.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

If India is not to be drawn in an anti PRC coalition, then what is the price the PRC is prepared to pay India that it may stand aside and give the PRC space. As far as I can tell the PRC is not conceding an inch. In fact it is causing aggravation upon agravation on India. It will be extreamly unwise of India to ignore the actions of the PRC and give it space.

If the bullying behaviour of the PRC doesnot end or is not modified. Then India will be left with no choice but to forge a collective security arrangement when it comes to dealing with the PRC. If India does that then the responsibility will solely rest with PRC and its inability to seek an accomodation with India.

JMT.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 15, 2010
By Lucian Constantin
Chinese Hackers Stole Korean Defense Secrets: Softpedia
Korean officials claim that hackers from China stole classified documents from the country's defense and foreign affairs ministries earlier this year by infecting computers with malware.

AFP cites a National Intelligence Service (NIS) spokesperson, according to whom, attackers sent targeted emails in which they impersonated Korean diplomats, presidential counselors and other public figures.

The attached malware posed as official documents, for example, economic forecasts for North Korea.

The intelligence agency has since alerted all government offices about the threat and advised workers to carefully inspect emails before opening them.

According to Lee Jung-Hyun, a member of the South Korean Parliament for the Grand National Party, the security breach involved a considerable volume of classified documents.

Because files were also stolen from the foreign ministry, the country's diplomatic missions abroad were put on guard about the possibility of similar attacks.

Back in August, local papers reported that 1,715 files containing military secrets and older war plans against North Korea, were stolen from the computers of thirteen Army analysts.

There are a lot of similarities between the two incidents, but at this time it's unclear if the security breaches are related.

Back in 2008, the Korean National Security Research Institute announced that trojans discovered on the computer networks of two major military equipment contractors.

One of them produced various types of guided missiles, while the other was responsible with building the country's first ever AEGIS ships.

China and North Korea, especially the latter, are commonly blamed for cyber attacks against South Korean networks, but most of the time investigators can't say with certainty which of them is responsible.

Seoul officials are convinced that the North Korean army has a unit of hackers, who regularly mount attacks from servers in China.

On the other hand, security experts believe that the true origin of most attacks can't be pinpointed accurately, as hackers use compromised computers.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 13, 2010
By Rajeev Sharma
The Dragon has landed for the American Eagle: IDSA
The Chinese dragon has landed in the American shop. The American eagle is sputtering. Sino-US rivalry has been simmering for the past many years, as China has replaced Russia in the American scheme of things as its most potent adversary. China has begun to project itself as an equal of the United States. China’s public outburst against the recent (“destabilizing”) US-South Korea naval exercises and its officials’ on-record statement that China had as much reason to be upset about such activities in its backyard as the US was about Soviet manoeuvres during the Cuban Missile Crisis is a testimony to Beijing’s changed demeanour. The Chinese government’s mouthpiece People’s Daily wrote on July 29, 2010 that Beijing was willing to work with Washington if Americans were to accept China as the second world power and divide areas of domination.
It is interesting that Indians are using suggestion to drive America's attitude! More Indians need to write, when Americans have become brain-dead!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by svinayak »

RajeshA wrote: The Chinese government’s mouthpiece People’s Daily wrote on July 29, 2010 that Beijing was willing to work with Washington if Americans were to accept China as the second world power and divide areas of domination.

It is interesting that Indians are using suggestion to drive America's attitude! More Indians need to write, when Americans have become brain-dead!
Dont you think that PRC and US have gamed this up long ago and have a tacit understanding.
Two rivals with a trade of $500 B every year.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Acharya wrote: Dont you think that PRC and US have gamed this up long ago and have a tacit understanding.
Two rivals with a trade of $500 B every year.
I think the Americans gamed it, but the reality has gone awry!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Arihant »

RajeshA wrote:Published on Oct 16, 2010
By Pranay Sharma
Eastward Ho!: Outlook India
So what kind of role is India likely to play? “India will do a soft balancing against China,” Michael Yehuda, author and professor emeritus of the London School of Economics, told Outlook. “India does not want China as its enemy but New Delhi also wants to deepen its relations with the East and Southeast Asian countries.” This requires tightrope walking—engaging other countries in the region, not wanting to isolate China, and yet ensuring the sea lanes don’t get roiled because of the choppy waters of international relations. India will have to attempt such calibrations, says Yehuda, because even as “it grows, its economic and military power is much less than that of China’s”. And, therefore, he predicts, India will eschew the option of sending its navy to join the fleet against China.

But if China continues to behave aggressively in East Asia in pursuit of its own parochial nationalist interests, says Yehuda, it will inevitably evoke a counter-reaction—and that’s when India will have to be careful. “India should not be drawn into an anti-China coalition. Rather, it should balance resistance to egregious Chinese moves with maintaining cooperative relations with Beijing in those sectors where interests overlap,” Yehuda said.
Another article espousing China's freedom to take down Asian countries one by one.
We keep hearing these warnings about how India should not be conned into joining anti-China coalitions, but the logic escapes me. China continues to hit India hard, wherever it can. India needs to respond in kind. Current assymetry in capabilities might require that this response be achieved via a coalition. It's that simple...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Karna_A wrote:The more real possibility is TSP just gives up in next 2 decades and becomes an Indian protectorate, so thanks for supplying all the nooks and missiles to TSP.
Isn't it the biggest nightmare Karna, TSP grew six times in population in last sixty years from 3 crores to 18 crores. Imagine in next sixty years they are going to be 1 billion 80 million by that rate. :eek:

Imagine such a jihadi Katttar population part of India. :shock:
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 16, 2010
Japan nationalists protest China 'invasion': AFP
At the start of the rally, Asako Ogura, a lawyer who belongs to the conservative Sunrise Party, drew large cheers as she took up a microphone to claim China had been ungrateful to Japan.

"We Japanese have long extended official development assistance by using taxpayers' money, and the Chinese economy has grown to surpass the Japanese.

"But China used its economic power to build up its military and now demands we hand over Senkaku and Okinawa on the back of the military power," she said.

"Our fathers and mothers boldly fought Western powers 60 years ago. Now let's fight the Chinese communists and their puppet government led by the Democratic Party of Japan!"

Organisers estimated the crowd at more than 2,000 people, and said Internet broadcasts of the event drew 10,000 viewers.
A few more Senkaku incidents, and Japanese would look for their samurai swords in their attics.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Prem »

http://seekingalpha.com/article/230361- ... rency-wars

Princeton University professor Paul Krugman, says China is the “bad guy” in the currency war as it is behaving badly by having an artificially weak yuan even as it is tightening policy. He states his case to CNBC’s Chloe Cho

( Slowly,slowly, China replaces Russia as bad guy)
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by TonyMontana »

shiv wrote: All we need to complete the circle is for India to behave that way towards China :roll:
Right on!
Altair wrote: Show some brinkmanship and they might backdown.There is no smooth way to deal with this situation.
Such as?
RajeshA wrote: Exactly, the only thing stopping us is our psychology. We are our own worst enemies.
The million dollar question is how to change it.
Altair wrote: Once India does these things,rest of things will start falling in place. Respect is earned not "gifted".Something our politicians never understand.
Agreed.
Acharya wrote: Dont you think that PRC and US have gamed this up long ago and have a tacit understanding.
Two rivals with a trade of $500 B every year.
It does trend that way.
RajeshA wrote: I think the Americans gamed it, but the reality has gone awry!
I wonder if the CCP is lucky, or worse, smart?
RajeshA wrote:A few more Senkaku incidents, and Japanese would look for their samurai swords in their attics.
And the first thing thay have to do is get rid of the Americans. Not much of a samurai otherwise.
Prem wrote: ( Slowly,slowly, China replaces Russia as bad guy)
The New Evil Empire!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by ramana »

Book Review:

LINK
THE WALL STREET JOURNAL

OCTOBER 16, 2010
The Next Battleground
By GURCHARAN DAS

We have come to accept that the 500-year domination of Asia by the West is coming to an end and that the balance of power in the 21st century will rest on the fortunes of China, India and the United States. In "Monsoon," Robert D. Kaplan goes further, suggesting that it is in the Indian Ocean where history will be made and where the global struggle for democracy, energy, religion and security will be waged.

Mr. Kaplan, whose books include "Balkan Ghosts" and "Warrior Politics," has a gift for geopolitical imagination. Maps do matter, he feels, and the right map can stimulate thinking about the future of the world. To understand the 20th century, it was important to understand the map of Europe. When it comes to the 21st century, however, Americans are at a disadvantage because of an inherent bias in their mapping convention: Since the 16th century, when Flemish cartographer Gerardus Mercator developed a method of showing the globe as a flattened surface, Mercator projections have tended to place the Western Hemisphere in the middle of the map, splitting the Indian Ocean at its far edges. Yet the Indian Ocean encompasses a quarter of the world's surface and is home to half of the world's shipping-container traffic.

From the Horn of Africa, the Indian Ocean stretches past the tense arc of Islam—with its tinderboxes of Somalia, Yemen, Iran and Pakistan—past the Indian subcontinent all the way to the Indonesian archipelago. The Indian Ocean will be the vital geography, says Mr. Kaplan, where the rivalry between China and India will play out, and where America's future as a great power depends on its ability to command a place on this new center stage of history.

Hovering over the book is a familiar question: Will the 21st century be defined by wars of identity, in particular the clash of fundamentalist Islam with others, or will it be a story of a largely peaceful, economic rise of India, China and other nations in Asia and Africa? Mr. Kaplan believes in the more optimistic scenario. The message of "Monsoon" is that the economic impulse is likely to prevail and in the long run even the more extreme Islamic nations will turn middle class. Al-Jazeera, the Middle Eastern television network, is symbolic of this bourgeois Islam.

The best thing that the U.S. can do, Mr. Kaplan says, is to continue to protect the vital trade routes of the Indian Ocean for the benefit of all, in alliance with the navies of the new powers of the Indian Ocean world. But America will have to shift its obsession with al Qaeda in order to be perceived as "legitimate" by the new, insecure middle classes of Asia, and learn to project its soft power.

To this end, according to Mr. Kaplan, the U.S. can learn something from India, whose soft power is admired around the world. The country is perceived by many as a pluralistic, democratic, nonviolent land of the ideals of Buddha, Gandhi and Tagore, ruled by the righteous principles of dharma during the best periods of its history—of the emperor Akbar in the 16th century, for example, and Ashoka in the third century B.C. This perception may explain why India's rise does not stir uneasiness in the same way that China's does. America too is a land of ideals, of course, but the world tends to forget that and needs to be reminded.

"Monsoon" rests on the premise that the Indian Ocean is "more than just a geographic feature, it is also an idea." I am not persuaded. Just as I am not persuaded that Asia is an "idea" in the sense that the West is. I have trouble imagining what people mean when they say that the 21st century will be an era of Asian dominance. It makes sense to talk about the rise of India and China, but Asia is too diverse with too many cultures, nations and religions—and it is too disunited. Yes, there have been rich, historical connections between Asian countries based on trade, diplomacy and Buddhism, but that is insufficient to support Asia as an "idea." This is a landmass, after all, that stretches from the Near East to the Far, across seven time zones and half the world's latitudes.

For the 21st century to be a peaceful era, Mr. Kaplan suggests, China, India and America should look to history for inspiration. The Indian Ocean was a trading cosmopolis before the Portuguese arrived in the late 15th century, an oceangoing marketplace where Indian, Chinese, Arab and Persian traders were brought close by the monsoon winds to create a grand network of communal ties. Such comity will be hard to duplicate as India and China grow more powerful and their interest in dominating the Indian Ocean increases accordingly. It should be noted that the navies of China and India will soon rank second and third in the world, trailing only the U.S.

India fears encirclement by China, and India's other neighbors are increasingly uneasy about Beijing's swelling power and assertiveness. Amid these worries, many Asian countries still look to America as the only credible guarantor of security in the Indian Ocean.

Mr. Kaplan offers plenty of striking insights in "Monsoon," and his analysis generally makes sense—but I nonetheless have trouble believing that the future of the 21st century will hinge on naval power. Military ships these days seemed designed more for intimidation and transport than for all-out naval warfare—they're sitting ducks for sophisticated rocketry.

When it comes to the contest between India and China, I do not believe it will be decided either by arms or economic strength. Both countries will soon become prosperous and middle class. The race will be won by India if it fixes its governance before China fixes its politics; or by China if it finds a way to give its people liberty before India reforms its institutions of the state--bureaucracy, police, and judiciary.

—Mr. Das is the author of "The Difficulty of Being Good: On the Subtle Art of Dharma." (Oxford University Press.)
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by naren »

CT:

Wen's pro-democratic stance might be driven by underlying corporate interests. They are better protected under democracy. So I think, we have corporate interests one side supporting democracy and govt interests on the other side (ie) disgruntled elites who didnt get a fair share, drumming up Maoism as a cover to stick it to the capitalists.

Now whom to support ? Democracy will tone done its militarism => long term benefit. Maoism will cripple the economy, but more militaristic in medium-long term => short term benefit, medium to long term fallout for India. I'd choose capitalists - get them drunk more with the Indian market. Support the democracy movements. Once that is achieved, use economic interests as a card to achieve political/strategic objectives.

Aside, "Triad Election" (original title was "election 2") is a good HK movie. Gives a good insight into what happens when elites dont come to an agreement. Watch the fires burn across the river :lol:

Plot from Wiki:
Lok (Simon Yam) is now holding his position as triad chairman of the Wo Shing society unthreatened in Hong Kong. As his two-year term expires, a new chairman election nears, but Lok contemplates breaking tradition, attempting to seek re-election. At the same time, Jimmy (Louis Koo) is trying to escape Wo Shing by building a legitimate business empire in mainland China. When he is arrested in an illegal financial trade with a government official for the building of a new logisitics center and highway, the section chief of the National Security Bureau forbids him to re-enter the mainland to do business, unless he becomes Wo Shing's next chairman. Reluctant, but forced to accept the reality he can never truly exit the triads, Jimmy enters into the election nomination, with Jet (Nick Cheung) and Kun (Lam Ka-Tung) also seeking the chairman position.

Lok first negotiates with Kun, claiming Wo Shing's "Uncles" will have Kun's support for the election, so long as they ally with one another. Kun then kidnaps and places Jimmy's financial supporter Mr. Kwok in a coffin alive with Big Head, so as to eliminate the competition. Lok also asks Jet to asssassinate Jimmy, also claiming the "Uncles" will support Jet. Unfortunately, Jet does not complete the assassination, following Jimmy warning the youth Lok will most likely have him and Kun killed, once Jimmy is dead. Mr. So, having been similarly arrested in the mainland for an illegal gambling ring, allies with Jimmy to see to his election as chairman. Meanwhile, Lok hides the Dragon Head Baton, the symbol of Wo Shing's leadership, in mainland China, hoping to reassert his power, then outright kills "Uncle" Teng Wai (Wong Tin-Lam), after Teng blasts Lok for breaking Wo Shing tradition. Seeing the corruption and civil war escalating in the society, Jimmy kidnaps Lok's lieutenants and bribes them to work for him. After exposing Kun for kidnapping Mr. Kwok and Big Head, while ordering Lok's lieutenants to murder the chairman, Jimmy's nomination is successful, and he wins the election.

Back in mainland China, the section chief congratulates Jimmy for winning and hands the Dragon Head Baton Lok hid. However, the Security Bureau is tired of seeing the baton entering the mainland for years and having to re-deliver it back to Wo Shing. In the hopes this will not happen again, the section chief orders Jimmy to become Wo Shing's chairman permanently, establishing the society as a family enterprise. The furious Jimmy cannot believe these turn of events, hoping once his two-year term as chairman expires, he can finally go "clean". Upon visiting his wife, whom he sent into hiding during the election for her safety, she announces her pregnancy. Jimmy embraces her hiding both fear and horror at the prospect of his son being trapped in a life he wants no part of.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 18, 2010
By John Pomfret
Chinese firms bypass sanctions on Iran, U.S. says: Washington Post
The Obama administration has concluded that Chinese firms are helping Iran to improve its missile technology and develop nuclear weapons, and has asked China to stop such activity, a senior U.S. official said.

During a visit to Beijing last month, a delegation led by Robert J. Einhorn, the State Department's special adviser for nonproliferation and arms control, handed a "significant list" of companies and banks to their Chinese counterparts, according to the senior U.S. official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss a sensitive issue in U.S.-Chinese relations. The official said the Obama administration thinks that the companies are violating U.N. sanctions, but that China did not authorize their activities. {This is the biggest bunkum one can think of. Chinese state companies are involved in Iran but China did not authorize them}

The Obama administration faces a balancing act in pressing Beijing to stop the deals and limit Chinese investments in Iran's energy industry. U.S. officials say they need to preserve their ability to work with China on issues ranging from the value of its currency to the stability of North Korea. {There are many more issues on which US feels it needs to cooperate with China. China is working outside the international system because it is broken. USA may want to put powder on UN's face to hide the cracks, but major countries like China are not listening to US anymore} But the administration also wants to make progress in efforts to dissuade Iran from building a nuclear weapon and to convince other powerful states that China is not receiving lenient treatment because of its energy needs {Over the next months and years, everybody would know that US is impotent, that it can bully only its allies and weaker countries to follow suit, but not China}.

"My government will investigate the issues raised by the U.S. side," said Wang Baodong, a spokesman for the Chinese Embassy. {That is diplomatese for '**** off'}

Einhorn's trip is part of a worldwide effort by the Obama administration to persuade countries to push Iran to enter into negotiations over its nuclear program, which the Islamic Republic says is peaceful. The Obama administration has cobbled together a growing network of countries and companies that have announced measures to cut investments in Iran.

China's involvement in Iran's energy sector and the role that some of its companies are believed to be playing in Tehran's military modernization could disrupt U.S.-Chinese relations. In a recent meetings on Capitol Hill, China's outgoing deputy chief of mission, Xie Feng, was told that "if he ever wanted to see Congress united, Democrats and Republicans, it would be on the issue of China's interaction with Iran," one participant said, speaking on condition of anonymity to disclose a private discussion. {Nobody is trembling in Beijing}

After the U.N. Security Council authorized enhanced sanctions against Iran in June, the United States, the European Union, Japan, South Korea, Australia and Canada passed laws to further restrict investment in Iran's energy sector. The U.S. law authorized the president to sanction any company found to be selling gasoline to Iran or that had invested $20 million or more in Iran's energy sector. INPEX, the Japanese energy giant, announced last week that it was pulling out of Iran.

China thus becomes the last major economy with significant investments in Iran's energy industry.] Russia does not have major investments there and recently canceled the sale of an advanced antiaircraft missile to Iran, refunding the $900 million sticker price.

"China now is the only country with a major oil and gas industry that's prepared to deal with Iran," the U.S. official said. "Everyone else has pulled out. They stand alone." {The guy is saying this as if US has achieved something remarkable! Getting China and Russia to pull out of Iran was the only real test of US diplomacy and they have failed.}

Each nation, particularly permanent members of the Security Council such as China, is responsible for abiding by the U.N. sanctions.

If one country does not, others can point out those failures, which is what Einhorn did. Other nations can also ban their companies from doing business with the wayward firms. The U.S. government did that at least 62 times with Chinese companies during President George W. Bush's first term, generally regarding missile-technology deals with Iran.

The U.S. official speaking anonymously said U.S. intelligence thinks that Chinese companies and banks have been involved in providing restricted technology and materials to Iran's military programs. He said that these deals occurred both before and after the enhanced U.N. sanctions were approved in June.
The thing to carry from this for the Indians is that U.S. is becoming a paper tiger. It is pushing its own allies and friends from looking after their strategic interests and allowing China to take over lost strategic space. India has lost Myanmar to China, because of India's tendency to support Western causes, and now India has lost Iran also.

Hopefully this doesn't increase American dependence on Pakistan.

Originally posted by abhishek_sharma
Published on Oct 17, 2010
By Jayanth Jacob
Delhi wakes up to pipeline, Tehran cold: Hindustan Times
The dates for the meeting had been conveyed between May 24 and 29 for the meeting. But at the last moment, Iran insisted the meeting be held in Tehran as the last meeting of the group was in Delhi, government sources said.

India didn't cite any objections, and both sides then agreed to scout for a convenient date in September. "Since Tehran was hosting the meet, they were to inform us about the modalities. But there is no communication from them yet," said an official.
Central Asia is now closed to India.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by abhischekcc »

One thing that the article makes clear is the spinelessness of Indian political class to stand up for its rights.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

The central Asia when closed to India is of litle utility to any one else.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

The American View

Published on Oct 18th, 2010
By Matt Gurney
Red Might Rising: Front Page Mag
Even if the two powers were to become vaguely antagonistic, the return to a world divided between two opposing, but stable, forces might itself have served a good purpose by restoring balance to an unstable geopolitical environment. But there are serious questions as to whether or not China is interested in a friendly, or even cordial, relationship with the United States. There are plainly some who view America not as a potential ally or merely an economic competitor, but as an enemy, plain and simple.
The toughest talk emanating out of Beijing comes not from the ruling Party itself, but from the armed forces. A whole new generation of military officers have spent their entire careers being taught that the United States is the primary enemy, the most likely force China would face in a conventional war.
But the challenge China’s rising power and increasing belligerence pose for the United States is very real. America’s military faces at least a decade, probably more, of constrained budgets, but no real hope of vastly diminished responsibilities.
Gates is pushing for a swift return to direct military-to-military dialogue and exchanges between the two forces as well, to help build bridges and foster understanding. Such will likely pay dividends, but will serve more to avoid on-the-spot mistakes than to prevent competitive policies decided upon at the strategic level. No amount of mutual understanding amongst the officer corps can undo mistrust and ill will at the very top of the chain of command.

China’s rise to the heights of global power is all but certain. Despite its current economic and political challenges, it is also virtually guaranteed that China will have to share the pinnacle of military might. It must decide for itself whether it seeks a relationship built on cooperation or goodwill, or confrontation and mistrust. America must do its part, by continuing to reach out to Beijing as Secretary Gates is doing, and by maintaining its own strength at levels sufficient to impress upon China that America is a serious nation committed to the security of its allies. {If a superpower's ambitions are limited to only impressing on China of its strength and seriousness, then something is surely wrong with America} In order to do so, America must resist the temptation to gut its military on the mantle of social progress — a stern lesson for the current occupant of the White House.
There is a lot of appeasist and defeatist talk coming from America. America's allies should start playing hard ball with America as far as transfer of technology and investment is concerned, but should also look elsewhere for their security. Also no country should allow their strategic interests to be dictated by USA anymore e.g. India's relations with Iran.

America should be called by its correct name - The United-States for Sino Appeasement!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush wrote:The central Asia when closed to India is of litle utility to any one else.
China gets a monopoly on procurement of Oil & Gas and other minerals. India is locked out of this market!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

Rajesh,

How much of the above is a result of messaiahs influence. is is it likely to disapper when some one else is in power in the safed ghar.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

Rajesh,

I am not too convinced that the CARs today will play by that rule book far any length of time. ie they will try to diversify away from the PRC. Sucessful or not is a seperate matter.

Alternatively this brings me to what I have been suggesting recently. India has to start looking towards the changing of its borders. Unless and until it does that it will foreved remain boxed in the indian subcontinant.

In this respect, those who say that India needs to have a "Friendly" TSP on its west in order to get out of sub-continantal box are correct.

JMT
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush ji,

I don't think so. It is a bipartisan position. America has been defeated not by military means but through its biggest weakness - addiction to credit.

One needs a military skirmish to wake up America.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

What you are discribing reminds me of post depression UK in the 1930s. With people saying we will have peace in our time.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 18, 2010
By Christopher Drew
New Spy Game: Workers Sell Firms’ Secrets Abroad: New York Times
Now, Mr. Huang, who was born in China and is a legal United States resident, faces a rare criminal charge — that he engaged in economic espionage on China’s behalf.

Law enforcement officials say the kind of spying Mr. Huang is accused of represents a new front in the battle for a global economic edge. As China and other countries broaden their efforts to obtain Western technology, American industries beyond the traditional military and high-tech targets risk having valuable secrets exposed by their own employees, court records show.

Rather than relying on dead drops and secret directions from government handlers, the new trade in business secrets seems much more opportunistic, federal prosecutors say, and occurs in loose, underground markets throughout the world.

Prosecutors say it is difficult to prove links to a foreign government, but intelligence officials say China, Russia and Iran are among the countries pushing hardest to obtain the latest technologies.

“In the new global economy, our businesses are increasingly targets for theft,” said Lanny A. Breuer, the assistant attorney general in charge of the Justice Department’s criminal division. “In order to stay a leader in innovation, we’ve got to protect these trade secrets.”
China is attracting all sorts of manufacturing companies the world over to invest in China. Many of their production processes are taken over by Chinese who form a supplier network for these companies. Other than that joint ventures with Chinese companies become essential to enter the Chinese market and require a certain transfer of technology. The Chinese are also more than busy in reverse-engineering all sorts of technology from the West. Technology they cannot get thus is simply stolen through industrial espionage. Entertainment products (movies, etc.) and software are freely pirated in China.

And still the world wants to trade with China. It is as if the business lobbies of those who want to trade are much stronger in the West than any efforts at accountability.

India has to see. Either the West ensures a full boycott of China (almost impossible) or India starts adopting similar tactics.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Lalmohan »

it was ok for china to steal know-how as long as it was at the bottom of the food-chain. now that they are nibbling up the chain, the west is getting more concerned
intellectual property rights have long been a worry... no one has really paid too much attention, and i suspect that the chinese gov't has been deliberately opaque about it...
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

X-Posting from Vietnam - News & Discussion Thread

Published on Oct 18, 2010
The Greater East Asian Anti-Chinese Alliance: Strategy Page
Vietnam is acquiring an impressive list of nuclear armed allies. Russia is now a major supplier of weapons to Vietnam, and is discussing returning to Cam Rahn Bay. France has been approached to supply high tech equipment and training for Vietnamese ground forces.

China considers Vietnam part of southern China. But despite centuries of military efforts, the Chinese could never keep Vietnam under control. Now Russia, India and France are arming, training and otherwise helping this wayward part of the motherland. China has not made open claims on Vietnam for over a century, but the animosity, and memories, are still there. And China was not happy about these other nuclear powers stepping into this family feud. But the fact of the matter is that an anti-Chinese coalition is forming in the region.
Vietnam will form the Hub of the China Containment Coalition - of East Asian countries and South East Asian countries including India.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 18, 2010
By Alexa Olesen
China allows rowdy anti-Japanese protests: The Associated Press
Tolerated by Chinese authorities, the demonstrations began peacefully but appeared to spin out of control with some marchers carrying crude, racist banners and even demanding a Chinese woman strip in public because her dress resembled a kimono. Later, the government warned the public to obey the law when expressing their nationalist feelings.

Japanese retailers Ito-Yokado and Isetan said protesters in the southwestern city of Chengdu broke windows and showcases in their stores, Kyodo News agency reported.

The website of the anti-Japanese China Federation for Defending Diaoyutai posted a photo that showed protesters in Chengdu holding a red and yellow canvas banner that called for Japan to be "wiped off the face of the earth." Others used English and Chinese profanities and urged violence against Japanese.

"Take a Japanese wife, then string her up and beat her everyday," read a sign held up by a young man and pictured on Gouride.com, a Chinese language web forum dedicated to anti-Japanese discussions.
隔岸觀火 - Watch the fires burning across the river. :mrgreen:. More oil please!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

What is the bet that the protests are stoked by the CCP it self.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by RajeshA »

Pratyush wrote:What is the bet that the protests are stoked by the CCP it self.
It is the same in all ideological authoritarian societies: The less pious make way for the more pious.

It is probably the CPC chieftains in Chengdu and elsewhere to make themselves visible, and to get more attention by the powers that be, in exchange for pacification of the aroused patriotic people. Once it becomes the standard means for catching attention, then the fun starts - as the tigers that men ride come back to eat them.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 17, 2010
By Mark Dubowitz
Put China To A Choice: Tehran Or Texas: Forbes
Earlier this week China’s state-owned CNOOC signed a $2.16 billion agreement with Chesapeake Energy Corporation, an Oklahoma City-based oil and natural gas firm, to buy a 33 percent share in an oil and natural gas project in south Texas, and access to cutting-edge drilling technologies that can extract energy resources from shale rock formations.

According to a 2009 Congressional Research Service report on unconventional gas shales, directional drilling (sometimes referred to as horizontal drilling) allows for access beyond the area below the drill to both oil and gas reserves in locations inaccessible to conventional drilling, including to difficult to reach offshore reserves.

Thanks in part to these shale deposits, the U.S. natural gas industry is experiencing a boom, and foreign companies including CNOOC and India’s Reliance Industries are moving aggressively to capture a piece of the action. Reliance has also spent billions acquiring stakes in U.S. natural gas projects, though it reportedly lost the Chesapeake deal to CNOOC.
So Reliance stopped shipping of refined oil to Iran due to American pressure, but still lost out to CNOOC on the Chesapeake Energy Corp.

And this is the funny part: China is being lured out of Iran by using American Energy concerns carrots. If China had not been in Iran in the first place, would there have been any need for Americans to give carrots?

That's the lesson! India should increase its strategic cards.

Hopefully India has similar access to this directional drilling technology.

What India can do is then use the technology to drill in the South Pars Gas Fields from the Qatari side, and not to accrue any sanctions. Iran can be given their due share of profits.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Pratyush »

I dont know just how accurate it is but I keep on drawing parallels between the Nazi Germany of 1930s and the PRC of today. If It is accurate then not confronting the PRC right now will lead to an increase in risk apatite in the PRC. That will devour every one arround it in a short period of time.

If confronted, contained and pushed back the thugs of PRC will build grevience and claim that the world is preventing the rightful rise of PRC.

A catch 22 if ever there was one.

Which ever way you look at it we need to prepare for WW3.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Pratyush wrote:I dont know just how accurate it is but I keep on drawing parallels between the Nazi Germany of 1930s and the PRC of today. If It is accurate then not confronting the PRC right now will lead to an increase in risk apatite in the PRC. That will devour every one arround it in a short period of time.

If confronted, contained and pushed back the thugs of PRC will build grevience and claim that the world is preventing the rightful rise of PRC.

A catch 22 if ever there was one.

Which ever way you look at it we need to prepare for WW3.
First of all, we need to win back the land that rightfully belongs to us - PoK/CoK. Then we need to subdue our neighborhood to not pursue anti-Indian alliances. All these are not against PRC directly, so they would not be able to make that claim convincingly.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 16, 2010
By Sudha Ramachandran
Delhi sweats as China inches toward Nepal: Asia Times Online
China's construction of a rail link between Lhasa and Xigaze (Shigatse) in the Tibet Autonomous Region will bring its rail network closer to its Nepal border and to India. The rail link has potential to boost Sino-Nepal trade and tourism; it is also expected to enhance China's already substantial influence in Nepal and bring the Chinese rail system closer too to the contested Sino-Indian boundary. A worried India is looking on as the Chinese railway steams southwards.

Construction now underway of the US$1.9 billion, 253-kilometer rail line between Lhasa, Tibet's capital, and the region's second-largest city, Xigaze, will, according to the official Xinhua news agency, be completed in four years. It is an extension of a line between Golmud in Qinghai province and Lhasa, inaugurated in 2006.

Xigaze is the capital of prefecture of the same name, Tibet's largest prefecture and one that shares boundaries with India, Nepal and Bhutan. Xigaze city is also the home of the Panchen Lama, the second most important spiritual head of Tibetan Buddhism.
Can't India put up a an anti-Maoist force trained by India? Can't India break up the Maoists? Can't India accuse the Nepali Maoists of supporting Indian Maoists and citing an attack on India, attack Nepal, taking it over?

Why doesn't the Indian Government need to respond to the the national interests of India?

Nepal would be the best place to intercede for India, because that would give countries like Bangladesh and Sri Lanka pause, when they go and make arrangements with China. India needs to consolidate our neighborhood.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 19, 2010
By Saban Kardas
Turkey inches closer to China: Asia Times Online
Erdogan described the decision to use mutual currencies as a step to cement the strategic partnership between China, which is likely to dominate the world economy in the years to come, and Turkey, an emerging economy, which ranks 17th. China and Turkey have been recovering rapidly from the global financial crisis, which may precipitate greater coordination between both powers in the context of the Group of 20 and other international platforms.

However, there remains a major trade imbalance in China's favor, which Turkey must quickly address. While Turkey's imports from China were around US$12.7 billion in 2009, Turkey's exports amounted to only $1.6 billion. Ankara's strategy is to redress this imbalance through the promotion of Chinese investments in Turkey, {Why is it that all countries are looking for Chinese investments to balance off China's trade surplus? Why don't they insist on China buying a similar amount of finished products?} increasing tourism from China, and gaining greater exposure for Turkish products in China.
So let's see, the number of countries, China has gathered in its corner - Kazakhstan, Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan, Iran, Turkey, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Maldives, Nepal, Myanmar, North Korea! Yeah, that's quite a bit!

US is losing friends fast and quick and so is India losing loyal neighbors (Nepal, Bangladesh, Myanmar, Sri Lanka, Maldives) and allies (Iran).
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Lalmohan »

turkey might be playing hardball for an entry ticket to the EU - which is what it has always wanted
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published August, 2010
By Robert Kaplan
South Asia's Geography of Conflict: Center for A New American Security (pdf)
Summary: India will emerge as the key Eurasian pivot state because of its effect on relations between the United States and China. To effectively deal with India, American policymakers must understand Indian geography and geopolitics throughout its long history. In particular, Indian geography is the story of invasions from a northwesterly direction, and India’s strategic challenges still inhere in this fact. Afghanistan, in Indian eyes, is not part of Central Asia but part of the Indian subcontinent. Afghanistan is linked organically to India on account of the record of empires past. This organic connection to India is also true of Central Asia and Iran. As for Pakistan, it is seen by Indians as the modern-day residue of medieval Muslim domination over India. As the India-Pakistan dispute attests, nationalism is young and vibrant in the subcontinent, as it was in early modern Europe. The India-China rivalry, unlike the India-Pakistan one, is far less emotional because it is not borne of historical grievances. India is quietly testing the United States in Afghanistan, to see to what extent America will remain as a great power in Eurasia.

As the United States and China become great power rivals, the direction in which India tilts could determine the course of geopolitics in Eurasia in the 21st century. India, in other words, looms as the ultimate pivot state. But even as the Indian political class understands at a very intimate level America’s own historical and geographical situation, the American political class has no such understanding of India’s. Yet, if Americans do not come to grasp India’s age-old, highly unstable geopolitics, especially as it concerns Pakistan, Afghanistan and China, they will badly mishandle the relationship.

Indeed, America has come to grief in the past by not understanding local histories. India is much too important for us to commit a similar mistake. In fact, India and South Asia in general have a dangerously misunderstood geography. Understanding that geography delivers one to the core of South Asia’s political dilemma, which is about borders that can never be perfect or even acceptable to all sides, so that the map of South Asia resembles that of war-torn, early-modern Europe, made worse by nuclear weapons. Indian history and geography since early antiquity constitutes the genetic code for how the world looks from the vantage point of New Delhi.

The broad arc of territory from Afghanistan southeastward into northern India was for long periods under the embrace of a single polity, so that Afghanistan is linked organically to India, even as Afghanistan matters more crucially to Pakistan. Thus, giving up on Afghanistan would carry momentous geopolitical implications for the United States, as it would affect how elites in New Delhi and other Asian capitals henceforth perceive Washington. Afghanistan is a tipping point for the American projection of power in Eurasia. It will affect at a visceral level how not just Indian, but also Pakistani and Chinese elites, see the United States. And the direction that Afghanistan takes will affect how successful India is in overcoming the problems on its borders in order to emerge as a world-class power. To give readers a rich sense of this, I first delve into South Asian geography and history at some length.
Published on Oct 19, 2010
By Robert Kaplan
Monsoon: The Indian Ocean and the Future of American Power

If somebody reads the book, please share your thoughts!
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Lalmohan wrote:turkey might be playing hardball for an entry ticket to the EU - which is what it has always wanted
I think, we are all past that stage. When Turkey saw that Europe wasn't going to increase its membership any time soon, it started thinking of alternatives. Basically Turkey would only be foreclosing many new options it has. With AKP at the helm, Turkey feels comfortable flirting with other powers.
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

Post by Hari Seldon »

Lalmohan wrote:turkey might be playing hardball for an entry ticket to the EU - which is what it has always wanted
It is doubtful the EU experiment will survive another decade, IMHO. Time will tell, of course, but who would wanna get caught in a club that constrains your economic freedom of action as oppressively as the EU does? Ask Ireland, Greece, Spain and Portugal and see what their aam aadmi has to say.

While it is early days still, the possibility that the sun has indeed set on the western world is very real indeed. And the perception alone (mingled with a pinch of credibility) can do enormous damage to the bully-pulpiteering, institutional hijacks and soft-power of the west, IMHO.

I for one, do not mourn the passing of the west. Sure I have concerns about what will replace them. But they have had their day. Time to fade into the sunset, kicking and screaming or otherwise, I don't care....
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Re: Managing Chinese Threat

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Published on Oct 17, 2010
Indonesia keeps China resources M&A at arm's length: Reuters
But the likelihood of Chinese state-owned giants successfully mounting takeovers of major minerals and coal firms in Indonesia, the world's largest exporter of thermal coal and tin, is small.

Standing in China's way are many Indonesian companies which resist floating more than 20 percent of issued share capital, as they themselves eye growing regional demand and aim to retain control, in a country historically wary of Chinese influence.
It is a good thing that India still keeps majority share of companies in Indian hands, especially in strategic industries.
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