Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Sep 03, 2010

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Oct 2010 17:19

those karachi cops looks like goons in some movie...all choppers and hockey sticks....all it needs is for sunny deol sir or mithunda to emerge from the nearest shanty and stand stoically in their way....

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 19 Oct 2010 18:20

Singha wrote:those karachi cops looks like goons in some movie...all choppers and hockey sticks....all it needs is for sunny deol sir or mithunda to emerge from the nearest shanty and stand stoically in their way....

Yup, if this wasn't in the TSP thread, I'd have thought 'twas a scene out of 'blood diamond' or some such Sierra leonian/Liberian nightmare....

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 19 Oct 2010 18:50

http://afpak.foreignpolicy.com/posts/20 ... gone_wrong

In March 2010, heavy fighting broke out in the northern Baghlan province between Hezb-e Islami fighters and the Taliban. On Oct. 7, 2010, a German soldier was killed by a suicide bomber in the same area. The connection between both events is another example how the establishment of 'militias' (even though they are not called so) can go wrong.

When the Taliban vs. Hezb-e Islami clashes broke out in the north of Baghlan province on 7 March this year, the Afghanistan Analysts Network (AAN) was given three different explanations of why this happened. First of all, 'the conflict was said to have been caused by disputes between both groups over the taxation of farmers,' i.e. over access to resources. Additionally, the Hezb fighters, led by a commander Sher, were said to have been involved in some kidnapping cases which angered the local population who, as a result, became more inclined towards the Taliban. At this point, the Taliban in the area were still mainly local.

According to the second explanation the 'Taliban "Lumpenproletariat" fighters,' who had been 'hired by the government-connected Hezb-e Islami to carry out violence and destabilize the province when needed,' had decided to take over from ‘their former employers to achieve full control of the area'.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 19 Oct 2010 19:04

Violence claims 64 lives in Karachi

KARACHI: Violence in Karachi claimed another 17 lives on Tuesday, bringing to 64 the toll from a series of killings began ahead of a by-election in PS-94 (Orangi Town) on Saturday.

According to latest reports, unknown gunmen opened indiscriminate fire in Shershah Kabari Market, killing at least 10 people.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 19 Oct 2010 19:22

The toll should stop at 72 or continue to its multiples.....also this thread will reach its 72 soon....very auspicious timing...

James B · Post by **James B** » 19 Oct 2010 19:23

US must respect Pakistan’s so-virginity: FM Qureshi

“We are an ally, not a satellite,” Qureshi said Monday at Harvard University. “We have to protect our borders — you have to respect our sovereignty.”

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 19 Oct 2010 20:35

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... out--bi-03

The culling of sick animals by animals that are even more sick continues...11 and counting in a market shoot out.

Now that confirmation of Paki role in 26/11 is coming from UK, US and everywhere else, whatever little sympathy should evaporate...

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 19 Oct 2010 20:46

talking of sovirginity here is another...

In years to come, when we try to fully explain the depths of denial state institutions in this country are stuck in, this classic interaction of officialdom should be repeatedly used. For if the message isn't clear enough, here it is in bold: the running of Pakistan's cricket, and very possibly its future, is no longer entirely in the hands of Pakistan. The ICC will say it differently, talk of greater scrutiny and closer monitoring and last resorts, but diplomat-speak cannot hide it; the ICC's task force on Pakistan is now the reporting authority on Pakistan cricket, and suspension of membership is on the table.

The flippant might argue that as long as Ijaz Butt is in charge, control in someone else's hands is a good thing. But for a nation so hooked to displays of false, blustering pride, so consistently paranoid about its sovereignty, the reaction was strangely muted. Most TV channels echoed the celebratory feel of the president's declaration, running with the Oval ODI being cleared, an indication of just how readily media in this part of the world descends into jingoism. Introspection, in any case, is too long-winded and messy. Two leading English-language newspapers mentioned the ICC warning only in passing, apparently not understanding the full implications of the press release. Long-suffering and deprived fans understandably took to the domestic Twenty20 with beautiful, heartening gusto.

It took a typically blunt Imran Khan to cut to the chase: "The ICC move to warn us and put us on notice is a shameful day for every Pakistani. It is a shame for Pakistan cricket." The cackle of former cricketers and administrators, usually so deafening, has not been heard.

There hasn't been a stronger, more damning indictment of the way cricket is run in Pakistan since full membership was achieved in 1952. Most pointedly the message is aimed at this board, but really the ultimatum is the logical conclusion of the last four years in particular and probably applies retrospectively to all administrations since the first days of match-fixing, the mid-90s. It is actually an equal indictment of the ICC that it has taken it so long to recognise that Pakistan is the sick man of world cricket, a truth most Pakistanis and the world have known all along.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Oct 2010 00:41

Pak-sponsored terrorism as substantive as J&K issue: Raohttp://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/ ... ys-rao.htm

Outlining India's approach to ties with Pakistan, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao [ Images ] said advocacy of an incremental, graduated and forward-looking approach to address the trust deficit was by no means an attempt to avoid tackling the substantive differences that trouble the bilateral relations. "While there can be no guarantees for success, such an approach seeks to build first on what is achievable and simultaneously to also address the more intractable issues in a sustained manner," Rao said in her address at a symposium in New Delhi [ Images ] on 'The Future of India-Pakistan Relations'.
"The issue of terrorism arising out of the sub-conventional conflict directed by Pakistan against India for over two decades now, cannot be ignored either. It is as substantive an issue as the issue of Jammu and Kashmir, or the issue of Siachen glacier," she added.Noting that a host of issues continue to bedevil India-Pakistan relations and cast long shadows on bilateral ties, she advocated "imaginative and creative" approaches to tackle issues of security, confidence-building. In this context, she underlined the need for economic linkages and enhanced people-to-people contacts as they seek to pave the way for a serious and comprehensive dialogue and could build the sinews of a more "durable and lasting" peace, so that the dawn of a new era does not remain a chimera.
Rao asserted that it was incumbent on each and every one to persevere with patience and dedication so that future generations do not remain hostage to a poison-ridden legacy of political misunderstandings and geopolitical antagonisms.She also pointed out that India's efforts to bridge the trust deficit and pave the way for a serious and comprehensive dialogue were thwarted by a level of overreach by Pakistan that complicated the resumption of a sustained dialogue process. "However, we do not view this as a setback in our quest for peace as both sides appear to be committed to ensuring that the spirit of Thimphu is not lost. The foreign minister of Pakistan Shah Mehmood Qureshi has accepted our invitation to visit India, dates for which will be decided through diplomatic channels," Rao said. In the India-Pakistan discourse, we have literally eaten bitterness for the last 60 years and given the complexities of our ties, the task of improvement in ties is also Sisyphean," she added,
At the same time Rao wondered what explains the warm and spontaneous applause of thousands of spectators at the Jawaharlal Nehru [ Images ] Stadium on October 3 this year when the Pakistani contingent entered the stadium for the opening ceremony of the Commonwealth Games [ Images ] in New Delhi.
"On one hand there is the push of realism that compels us to see the relationship with Pakistan as hobbled by its many limitations. While on the other hand, there is the pull of emotion, of sentiment, of the muffled footsteps of shared history that beat in our blood, that generates a response that is giving and generous."
According to Rao, predicting the course of one of the most complex and unpredictable relationships in the modern era was a task that most intrepid astrologers would hesitate to undertake but asserted that the choices for the future are stark and real. "Either we learn to live together in peace and harmony or we risk imparting to future generations our differences and prejudices that will continue to divide us rather than unite us and indeed widen the gulf between us," she said.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Oct 2010 00:44

Pak Taliban gave Rs 19 lakh to Times Square bomber
http://news.rediff.com/interview/2010/o ... bomber.htm

Pakistan's banned Tehrik-e-Taliban militant outfit had provided $43,000 (about Rs 19 lakh) in financial support to Pakistani-American terrorist Faisal Shahzad for plotting the botched car bombing in New York's Times Square. This was mentioned in a report on the arrest of Shahzad's alleged associates that was submitted by police on Monday to a Rawalpindi-based anti-terrorism court. In the report on the arrest of Hunbal Akhtar, Mohammad Shoaib Mughal and Mohammad Shahid Hussain, the police said it had been established that the trio had links with Shahzad.
The investigators said the accused, who used to visit Pakistani Taliban [ Images ] chief Hakeemullah Mehsud, confessed in their statement made under Section 164 of the Criminal Procedure Code before a judicial magistrate that they provided $43,000 to Shahzad for the attacks.hahzad, son of a retired Pakistani air vice marshal, was sentenced to life in prison by a United States court last month. akistani police said they had obtained the data of conversations between the accused and Shahzad. The anti-terrorism court of Judge Malik Mohammad Akram Awan adjourned the case till October 26 after receiving the report.Investigators said in the report that Mughal allegedly allowed Shahzad and three other would-be suicide bombers to stay at his home for a week.

r_subramanian · Post by **r_subramanian** » 20 Oct 2010 00:45

shravan wrote:Violence claims 64 lives in Karachi

KARACHI: Violence in Karachi claimed another 17 lives on Tuesday, bringing to 64 the toll from a series of killings began ahead of a by-election in PS-94 (Orangi Town) on Saturday.

According to latest reports, unknown gunmen opened indiscriminate fire in Shershah Kabari Market, killing at least 10 people.

There is an ethnic angle to this. According to BBC online report on this,

... most shopkeepers in this part of the market belong to the Urdu-speaking community that traditionally supports the Muttahida Qaumi Movement (MQM), which is part of the governing coalition in Sindh province.

BBC_report

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 20 Oct 2010 00:53

Pratyush wrote:Just goes to show, regardless of the WKK in the media, the population of India has not forgotten or forgiven Mumbai.

It means nothing.
The opening ceremony had the crowd roaring in approval as they walked in. This is just excuses from that side.
Otherwise the Indian public at large is very forgiving and even more forgetting.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 20 Oct 2010 01:21

CRamS wrote: Can't MMS point out to his US interlocuters that Israel has nukes, US does not want Iran to have the same. Regional imbalance there, so whats wrong with regional imbalance in "South Asia". Why should there by any balance between between a terrorist,l nuke-peddling, Islamo fascists state with the world's largest democracy?

Eh? Why should MMS do any such thing? The PM has better things to do than respond to everything that the diplomat of a two-bit country says. There is such a thing as being too preoccupied with what pronouncements and announcements go on in the US. Who cares? Has the ground reality shifted? Is it about to shift because this man's pronouncements? Will we suddenly become Paki equals because the US SD sees it as so?

The US will pay the money because their supply lines go through Pakistan. Everything else is a side issue.

Sen_K · Post by **Sen_K** » 20 Oct 2010 01:42

US 'set to offer $2 billion aid package to Pakistan'

And an apt headline in TOI - Obama mission: Billions to Pakistan, billions from India

The Obama administration is lining up at least $ 2 billion in fresh, new military aid to Pakistan even as it is lobbying for billions of dollars in defense sales to India ahead of the US President's visit to the region early November.

It also comes amid stunning disclosures pointing to direct ISI (and therefore the Pakistani state's) involvement in the 26/11 terrorist attacks on Mumbai, which sites President Obama is expected to visit on November 6. Six Americans were among 172 people killed in the carnage.
On top of this, a top Nato official said this week that Osama bin Laden was living in "relative comfort" in Pakistan, protected by locals and some members of the country's intelligence agencies, following up similar charges earlier by secretary of state Hillary Clinton.

While India's will be paying hard cash for all these transactions, Pakistan, which was already broke before it was overrun by floods of biblical proportions and reduced to begging, will essentially be getting freebie military hardware from the US in the name of fighting terrorism.

The US aid comes despite criticism from Washington that Pakistan's wealthy, including its political leadership, is ducking from paying taxes, and US tax-payers are having to pick up the tab for Pakistan.

James B · Post by **James B** » 20 Oct 2010 02:06

Kiyanahi leaves for US to attend Pak-US Strategic Dialogue

Chief of Army Staff (COAS), General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani left on Tuesday morning for the United States of America on an official visit.

During the visit COAS will participate in Pakistan-US Strategic Dialogue. He is also scheduled to meet senior military and government officials of the U.S in Washington.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2010 02:13

Its a carrot and stick policy. Carrot for TSP and stick for India.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Oct 2010 03:02

The sustained armed aid to Pakistan while the Headley affair reveals direct Paki establishment links to 26-11, is too much morally and realistically for me to digest. The US may be making a really BIG mistake here. But i am beginning to see a fallacy more amongst us than any one else.

We don't really put our point forward. We have not done so on Kashmir. We don't need to talk to Govts, but we certainly can put out full page ads in NYT and other papers explaining the Indian position. It's almost we take for granted 'satyameva jayate'. Truth is also to be fought for ultimately. We are in a way to confident in an evil world about our largesse, our sense of gratitude. It does bring us some dividends, but it also in the present context portrays us as weak and ineffectual, hiding some truth that many assume is not in our favor.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Oct 2010 03:05

No point in wasting money over those who pretend to be deaf. Better spend it in India.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 20 Oct 2010 03:33

Ramanaji but we have conveyed nothing to the 'deaf'. It results in an entire generation of Westerners thinking Paki's as 2nd world realists but us as 3rd world bumblers. We have to convey our message. Everyone has to do so, so does this nation. It's a mistake to term people as deaf. Even deaf people know the truth.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 20 Oct 2010 03:55

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cwga ... 772926.cms

"It was a bit too much for the players the way the spectators kept away at us and reminding us we were Pakistanis," he said.

In most probability, all the unarmed women, children and men naturally stayed away from pakis, because there is always a lurking fear that pakis may exhibit their bravery. And who knows with all the sporting equipment like shooting paraphernalia in the hands of pakis, it is always advisable to stay as far as away in safe distance.

tejas · Post by **tejas** » 20 Oct 2010 05:10

From the Paqui Nostradamus :

The mass migration of millions of skilled Muslims has created a serious crisis of production and growth in industry and economy. Industrial produce have gone down 40%

Never knew cabbies had this much effect on Umrikhan economy.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 20 Oct 2010 05:35

RamaY wrote:
ramana wrote: In a true Islamic state the Parliament etc are kabuki theater for the law is Shariat and is already given. The Parliament only enacts laws that are outside the Shariat and therefore not legitimate.

Parliament etc are there for show to Wastern states that prop up the TSP to soothe their (Wastern) collective conscience.
A Paki-parliament (oxymorn by definition) also serves another purpose Ramanaji. It allows other "secular" world (mainly Indians. Nations like USA and PRC know what pakistan truly means) to think Pakis are similar to them.

Saudi Arabia like most of the Gulf countries have no parliament, but most of the Mediterranean Arab countries do. This is not for external consumption as internal legitimacy - after all their Arab nationalist ideology defines these countries as republics, not emirates, and the people as citizens, not subjects. Mediterranean monarchies like Jordan and Morocco had to allow parliaments to come in to being defuse public demands.

Pakistan is somewhat similar, but its political parties are more powerful than political parties anywhere in the Arab world. The biggest reason is the lessons the PA learned from the reign of Ayub Khan, their first military dictator. Ayub Khan abolished party politics, and the result was not at alll good for the PA - it led directly to the emergence of the PPP, the first and only national level party in Pakistan willing and able to challenge the military.

The more directly the PA rules Pakistan, the more responsibility it has to take for conditions, and the greater the damage to its popularity and legitimacy among the peoples of Pakistan. Politicians instead deflect the public blame from the army, while receiving the right to loot the treasury in exchange. Army corruption is a state secret that you reveal at risk to your own life, while the PA encourages open discussion of civil corruption to keep themselves looking clean in comparison. As a strategy, its worked for the PA even as it has failed Pakistan.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2010 05:37

ramana wrote:Its a carrot and stick policy. Carrot for TSP and stick for India.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 20 Oct 2010 05:42

Prem wrote:Pak-sponsored terrorism as substantive as J&K issue: Rao http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/oct/ ... ys-rao.htm

Why is GoI intent on scoring self goals? Why set an internal matter of India against Pakistan's international war crimes on India?

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 20 Oct 2010 05:43

shiv wrote:
ramana wrote:Its a carrot and stick policy. Carrot for TSP and stick for India.

one liners like these are gems....one should use these on placards and banners at wherever possible when Mr.Hussain is here.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 20 Oct 2010 06:58

So do some people wish the situation were reversed? That it was India surviving on handouts and having the predator as it's national bird?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Oct 2010 07:02

AdityaM wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Just goes to show, regardless of the WKK in the media, the population of India has not forgotten or forgiven Mumbai.
It means nothing.
The opening ceremony had the crowd roaring in approval as they walked in. This is just excuses from that side.
Otherwise the Indian public at large is very forgiving and even more forgetting.

The roar was for the drama within the paki contingent and to for the Pakis themselves.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 20 Oct 2010 07:05

Vivek_A wrote:So do some people wish the situation were reversed? That it was India surviving on handouts and having the predator as it's national bird?

You forgot the sarc tags or something? To make the above statement about BRFites on BRF in all seriousness is quite a stretch otherwise....

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2010 07:32

Vivek_A wrote:So do some people wish the situation were reversed? That it was India surviving on handouts and having the predator as it's national bird?

The way I see it is I don't know what this Predator and handout business means. That may be some internal Pakistani matter that does not concern me. What concerns me is 1.5 billion dollars a year of military aid, F-16s block 52, AMRAAMs, night fighting equipment, communication equipment, UAVs and money to buy AWACS - all of which can be used to kill Indians. It is India which is suffering. I think Pakistan is a happy and prosperous country. Do you see it any other way?

Ashoka · Post by **Ashoka** » 20 Oct 2010 07:42

Disgraceful & shameless article from Jug Suraiya.

Should India trade the Valley for a permanent UN Security Council seat

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ir-bargain

Hey Jug, what will you trade for a permanent citizenship of Pakistan?

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 20 Oct 2010 07:50

From above a good read at least IMVHO

http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatimes.co ... ir-bargain

Would you trade a concession on Kashmir for a permanent UN Security Council seat? Such a hypothetical trade-off might not be as far-fetched as it sounds. When US President Barack Obama comes to India later this year, one of the items on his agenda will be Kashmir. New Delhi's position continues to be that Kashmir is an integral part of India and that the K-word is out of bounds for any third party. However, whether New Delhi likes it or not, Kashmir has acquired international ramifications, being one of the components of Washington's so-called AfPak policy. Having announced a pullout date for Iraq, a White House increasingly embattled with a host of domestic social and economic problems would like to chalk out a withdrawal plan from Afghanistan as well. In order to do that, however, it has first to somehow induce Pakistan to be a more reliable accomplice in the US-led anti-terrorist operations. The huge sums of money doled out to Islamabad by Washington have reportedly largely been spent on a clandestine promotion of the terrorism Pakistan ostensibly has been enlisted by the US to combat.

As cash bribes haven't done the trick with Islamabad, Obama might have to try and pull another rabbit out of his hat to seduce Pakistan into cooperation. That rabbit could well be Kashmir, which Islamabad keeps underlining as its 'core issue' vis-a-vis India.

The five-month-long ongoing azadi agitation in Kashmir, which has claimed more than a hundred civilian lives, could be a cue for Obama to put the Valley on the table, much though this will cause New Delhi's hackles to rise. But perhaps South Block need not be so predictably prickly about the K-word. Perhaps, for once, the taboo word could be used as a bargaining chip to gain a larger objective: a permanent seat in the UN Security Council which historically turned down in deference to China.

Give away Kashmir? Not for all the world! And certainly not for some poxy Security Council seat which India is getting anyway from January 2011 for a two-year period. No Indian government could even think of giving away Kashmir without committing immediate political suicide, with no hope of reincarnation. But what about making some token concession on Kashmir: not azadi, not an India-Pakistan plebiscite, but a restoration of the autonomy that the state enjoyed till 1953, and which is within the framework of the Constitution?

Such a concession would not satisfy Pakistan. But it just might be enough to nudge Washington which is very keen on selling billions of dollars worth of arms to India to throw its weight behind New Delhi's ambition of securing a permanent and not just a two-year Security Council seat.

Of the 15-member Security Council, five are permanent members: the US, Britain, Russia, France and China. These are the big boys, the P-5, who sit at the high table. It's in New Delhi's larger interests to go all out to turn the P-5 into the P-6 by including itself in an elite group that shapes global policies. Indeed, India has been a beneficiary of the P-5's clout, with Russia formerly the USSR having consistently used its veto to keep Kashmir off the international agenda.

Making a concession on Kashmir the restoration of pre-1953 autonomy, say is not going to mollify Islamabad, which will remain hostile to India. But if New Delhi can become the 6 in P-6, it will have gained a measure of parity with China, the biggest kid on the Asian block. Pakistan will remain a painful thorn in India's heel, no matter what. But whom should India measure itself against: the virtually failed state of Pakistan, or the economic and military giant that is China?

If it were your choice to make, which would you choose?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Oct 2010 07:57

Johann wrote:Saudi Arabia like most of the Gulf countries have no parliament, but most of the Mediterranean Arab countries do. This is not for external consumption as internal legitimacy - after all their Arab nationalist ideology defines these countries as republics, not emirates, and the people as citizens, not subjects. Mediterranean monarchies like Jordan and Morocco had to allow parliaments to come in to being defuse public demands.

Pakistan is somewhat similar, but its political parties are more powerful than political parties anywhere in the Arab world. The biggest reason is the lessons the PA learned from the reign of Ayub Khan, their first military dictator. Ayub Khan abolished party politics, and the result was not at alll good for the PA - it led directly to the emergence of the PPP, the first and only national level party in Pakistan willing and able to challenge the military.

Johann, KSA does have a Shura council, though not an elected Parliament, as in Kuwait for example, which is all appointees of the King. This was one of the changes that happened after the Gulf War when there was political ferment in KSA which OBL tried to exploit. In order to quell this unrest, this Shura was announced. As you rightly said, it was purely for internal consumption.

Pakistan should not be compared with these West Asian countries. The Pakistanis had a taste of parliamentary democracy in the undivided British India. As they are so untired of saying, Mohammed Ali Jinnah, was the greatest Constitutionalist. A Constitution making body and a democratic setup was there right from the very beginning in Pakistan.

One has to look at why democracy flourished more in the then East Pakistan than in West Pakistan. It is an irony that while the feudal Zamindari system was abolished in East Pakistan as early as c. 1950, West Pakistan could not take similar measures. Because the massive feudal landlords of the Punjab and the Sind and the Khans of the NWFP did not allow dilution in their powers and all the powerful politicians like Daultana, Mamdot et al were some of the biggest landlords and on whom depended the rootless Jinnah and his band of mohajirs, this system was never reformed. Of course, the PA recognized that 'land was power', a British legacy, and played its part too. This is the single biggest impediment in establishing a more participative and egalitarian society in West Pakistan. Thus, the biradari clannish system determines the outcome of elections.

West Pakistanis and their leaders as a whole have depended on opportunism. The creation of Pakistan itself was an opportunistic exploitation by the Muslim League of British geostrategic thinking. Ever since that time, Pakistan wanted to merely use windows of opportunity rather than strive hard to succeed in nation building. Jinnah's opportunistic thinking on Junagarh, Hyderabad and Kashmir; Pakistan's opportunistic alliance with the West even at the cost of Islamic nations such as KSA & Egypt etc; its opportunistic support for Israel earlier on; the opportunistic welcome of 'military dictators' by the masses everytime a coup occurs; Pakistan's opportunistic alliance with China after the Indo-China war of 1962; its perception of a 'window of opportunity' in 1965 in launching a war with India; its opportunistic attempts to seize undemarcated areas that led to Siachen; its opportunistic alliance with USA & KSA in Afghanistan; its opportunistic Kargil war; its opportunistic exploitation of 9/11, 2005 Earthquake and the 2010 floods etc speak how little Pakistan has believed in strategic development and hard work at nation building.

While citizens of West Pakistan exhibited this characteristic, it is my impression that those of East Pakistan were more enlightened, strategic and much less tactical. This has shown in their political maturity (though there was a period of military rule). Pakistan has been trying ever so hard to subvert this political enlightenment of Bangladesh, but that is a different story though it shows its true nature.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 20 Oct 2010 08:12

S Sridhar,

Jinnah's and Liaqat Ali's death led directly to the fragmentation of Pakistan's civilian political class, and the PA was happy to step in to that power vacuum.

The interesting thing is that the PA abolished parliamentary democracy under Ayub Khan, and has periodically suspended it since.

Yet in every case the PA has backed its return. This is not because the PA *lacks* the power to rule directly, but because they recognise how much cheaper it is for them to rule from behind the green curtain of parliamentary democracy.

The PA can afford to have individual dictators like Ayub, Yahya, Zia or Musharraf hated. They can not afford to allow institutional hatred develop for the military, which is what took place in South America during direct military rule from the 1960s through 1980s. That is why Latin America's people were generally able to send the army back to the barracks in the 1980s and 1990s.

Husain Haqani has directly laid out this evolution in PA's political thinking in the 1960s in his book on Pakistan: Between Mosque and Military.

Ashoka · Post by **Ashoka** » 20 Oct 2010 08:12

The whole point he is making is that India should give in to the terrorist tactics of TSP & internationalize the Kashmir issue. Now why? What support TSP has received after Qureshi's tantrums in all the international fora? A pre-1953 autonomy will only be followed by demands of partial independence, then full independence then accession to TSP.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 20 Oct 2010 08:20

There is nothing wrong in the suggestion as I see it.Give some concessions, get a SC seat then reverse the concessions.Problem is with the Indian leadership, instead of doing such a thing they seem to be changing India by social engineering read demographic changes so all such things are suspicious and moot unless we have clarity from the leadership as to what they intend to do ultimately which IMHO is something not very pleasant or so it seems.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 20 Oct 2010 08:23

Manishw wrote:There is nothing wrong in the suggestion as I see it.Give some concessions, get a SC seat then reverse the concessions.

That "seat" is earned. It has been earned by everyone on there by their national power to start or end a world war. It is never been given to anyone by trading his own territory. A nation that thinks it gets "prestige" by sitting on a seat after trading it's territory is a nation that is deluding itself. There is only so much respect such a nation will get.

IB4TL

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 20 Oct 2010 08:25

^ Agree.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 20 Oct 2010 08:35

IB4TL AoA!!!

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 20 Oct 2010 08:39

^Complete reply posted in geopolitical thread and the earning bit can be discussed there.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 20 Oct 2010 08:43

Sad, indian journalism field if full of fuddus. Soon India will dwarf half of P5 and it will be rediculous situation for for UN to ignore largest portion of population on planet with third/secon largest economy and army. India will be able to blow the UN house with little puff then why such a beggar mentality among "pseudo Intellectuals". lacking in integrity and confidence they do float like straws in the little wind.