Indian Missiles and Munitions Discussion

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 23 Oct 2010 03:43

would you think Brahmos with its steep dive trajectory would fit the bill with bunker busting modifications?

Brahmos 2 would be reaching hypersonic speeds which is much closer to the terminal speeds of medium range ballistic missiles and it would retain its accuracy

so far the radar guided PAD is accurate, so the terminal guidance can be made to respond to a seeker to acheive better accuracy as will be done with Brahmos 2

Anti ship ballistic missiles are in the same development path

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2010 06:16

bramos, land attack varient could theoraticaly work with the anit ship warhead as it is a shaped charge. But the penetration charactics will not be the same as the MBDA one. Cause Bramos is a 500+ lbs warhead. But the MBDA is a 1000 LBS warhead.

The interesting weapon is SDB. Supposedly it at 250 Lbs weight can match the performance of a 2000 lbs bunker buster. If the warhead design could be implimented then the bramos becomes even more leathal then it already is.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 23 Oct 2010 08:03

The warhead alone is not doing the work here, its the tandem warhead with a shaped charge in the front, this blast unit one along with the kinetic energy of the missile airframe create great amount of stress on the earth penetration point that it behaves like a fluid for a brief second, the missile punches in where blast unit two goes off

weight distribution could be in the airframe since it has to survive the impact, the shaped charge is conventional and blast unit two can be a sub kT nuclear one;

that aside, I think in one of the recent interviews DRDO did mention that packing more TNT (explosive power wise) into smaller sized warheads is something they are working on perhaps in a different context

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 23 Oct 2010 19:46

Karan M wrote:
kanson wrote:Good. The tracks that was maintained by the BSR gets an update from BLR for the missing information like height when the target is within the range of BLR. The whole picture is maintained in the BCC. Which radar does what among the targets is decided at the BCC. As my knowledge goes it is 40+20. Target with utmost priority will be taken by BLR for engagement.
The last statement "as my knowledge goes" is to be corrected. It is not "40+20", it is 100 & 64 (that poster has a typo) & one does not necessarily have anything to do with the other. In other words, there could be 100 aircraft being tracked by the BSR which are not the 64 detected by the BLR. It is the job of the BCC to prioritize which of these targets gets engaged. This can be done automatically or by the operator choosing manually.

First, a word about the BSR. The BSR was a cheap(er) sensor chosen so that the Akash battery could operate autonomously. Being a phased array radar, the Rajendra can attack all 4 targets within its scan angle. But since Akash is command guided (cheap & effective against jamming), radar will be slewed in a particular direction. Whereas, BSR will continue to be operated over the other portions of space the Rajendra is now, not looking at, once it starts its engagement cycle. So its not necessary that the Rajendra necessarily provide the "missing information" like height, in all the cases. What the BSR is for, is Early Warning. Its an EW radar to give the Rajendra sufficient advance time to slew its radar to the highest threat zone and engage.

With a +/- 45 degree azimuth coverage and the ability to guide missiles to anywhere within that zone, that zone is quite large, and sufficient, but the BSR provides backup.

Now, the BSR is not likely to be acquired. The Indian Army has a new 3D CAR variant, with slightly reduced range over the IAF 3D CAR variant, but greater than the BSR. In contrast to the BSR, the 3D CAR is made in India, whereas BSR was a tracked 2D radar modified with Indian electronics, bought to support the Akash autonomous capability since original Rajendra did not slew over the full 360 degrees. Now the Rajendra can do this, and 3D CAR Army Variant is also available and has already been ordered. Most importantly, India has money to order full 3D radars and not just 2D sensors.

I'm aware of the Multi-Sensor data fusion and C4I functions in Akash system. One of the threat classification is by height. The targets that are maintained by BSR gets update from BLR whenever they are within its range and the Priority Q gets changed based upon the threat update from BLR. 4 targets will be shortlisted from this Q for immediate action. BSR is chosen as it is mountable on a tank chassis and it occupies only one vehicle per radar.

The info board that you find fault is in reference to BSR and all these discussions are on the capabilities of Autonomous mode.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 23 Oct 2010 20:32

Brahmos Missile Air Force Variant by 2012, Hypersonic Variant in 5 years: Dr. A.S. Pillai

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 23 Oct 2010 20:43

Vasu et al, usually HE to total weight is ~50% for blast effects. Penetrator types ~15%.

Brahmos Block II with its high accuracy is for control and command targets.

BB is an art form. Europe like shaped charge for their targets are a/c hangers and pens. C&C deeply buried structures need KE to go thru earth and concrete and maybe floors.

I am intrigued with DRDO naming convention. Naming the LGB Sudharshan after Krishan Bhagwan's spiked discus implies its for severing the heads ie the command and control targets and being locally made it should be available in good numbers. Also if you read the DRDO developed HSLD (High Speed Low Drag) bombs they are based on the British based similar ordnance and could have similar penetration characteristics.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 23 Oct 2010 21:00

SriSri wrote:Brahmos Missile Air Force Variant by 2012, Hypersonic Variant in 5 years: Dr. A.S. Pillai

I do not think Brahmos hypersonic missile should be labeled as upgrade , its a new missile with new capability ,new scramjet engine , lighter , smaller and faster.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 23 Oct 2010 21:15

@Austin, agreed.

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 24 Oct 2010 21:08

IAF could soon get supersonic BrahMos missile http://www.zeenews.com/news663416.html

Coimbatore: Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive and Managing Director, BrahMos Aerospace, has said that the development and induction of BrahMos, India's supersonic cruise missile for the Indian Air Force will be completed soon.

Talking to reporters here on Saturday, Pillai said: "Recently the missile was tested for ''steep dive attack'' capability, as demanded by the Army.

"The recent attempt was to see that it gives higher performance. On that ground we thought that we should prove the attack mode as well. That is how we did steep-dive mission, which also went very successfully. So we have got a missile, which is capable of multiple missions... form, multiple platform, with multiple types of trajectories. And which has become very universal, which nobody in the world has got today," he added.

The missile had already been inducted into the Indian Army and Navy. The missile had a speed of Mach 2.8.

"We are producing now for the navy, as well as for the army. Large numbers of ships in the Indian Navy will be having BrahMos missiles and also the army will be having at the land range," he said.

Pillai further said efforts were underway to increase the speed of the missile from Mach 2.8 to Mach 5 or Mach 7, taking it from the supersonic to hypersonic category.

India test-fired an advanced version of a supersonic cruise missile in September, as part of the country's drive to boost its defence system.

The missile can fly at 2.8 times the speed of sound, and can carry conventional warheads up to 300 kg for a range of 290 km.

India and Russia are jointly designing the BrahMos missile. It is a supersonic cruise missile capable of being launched from submarines, ships, aircraft and land-based Mobile Autonomous Launchers (MAL).

The BrahMos missile is a two-stage vehicle that has a solid propellant booster and a liquid propellant ram-jet system.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Oct 2010 09:12

Austin wrote:
SriSri wrote:Brahmos Missile Air Force Variant by 2012, Hypersonic Variant in 5 years: Dr. A.S. Pillai
I do not think Brahmos hypersonic missile should be labeled as upgrade , its a new missile with new capability ,new scramjet engine , lighter , smaller and faster.

Any quotes, links stating that Brahmos 2 will have a scramjet engine? There have been many reports/quotes that Brahmos 2 will be hypersonic but are they any explicitly stating that it will have a scramjet engine as opposed to an improved ramjet one?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 09:59

Yes there are many but technologically too an improved ramjet cant give you a speed of M 5 - 7

http://www.zeenews.com/news663313.html

This upgrade will take at least five years since it requires modification of scramjet engine, technology, reduction size and weight, Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of the Indo-Russian joint venture company said.

http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/Hindi/dpi/I ... 0709-2.pdf

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 25 Oct 2010 12:47

Austin wrote:Yes there are many but technologically too an improved ramjet cant give you a speed of M 5 - 7

http://www.zeenews.com/news663313.html

This upgrade will take at least five years since it requires modification of scramjet engine, technology, reduction size and weight, Dr A Sivathanu Pillai, Chief Executive Officer and Managing Director of the Indo-Russian joint venture company said.
http://www.drdo.gov.in/drdo/Hindi/dpi/I ... 0709-2.pdf

Thanks Austin. At AI-09 a person manning the Brahmos stall had said that it would be an improved ramjet and not a scramjet. Ramjets can go upto M5 (as per Wiki

) and that's the speed the person stated as the speed for Brahmos-2.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 14:15

^^^ Merlin the intended goal of Brahmos 2 is to have a missile which can do any thing between Mach 5 to Mach 7 , M 7 being its upper limit , According to a Russian missile designer who was interviewed mentioned that beyond Mach 7 there is formation of plasma which would make any RF seeker ineffective. Hence going beyond Mach 7 is another challenge that missile designers are working on.

Another notable thing I have come across is that hypersonic Brahmos will only be air capable , which would indicate a fighter will have to take it at high altitude and push it at supersonic speed via small booster so that scramjet takes over , thats how they make it lighter , smaller ,faster imho

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 25 Oct 2010 20:24

Austin, Thanks for the pdf. Will study and post my comments.
-
BTW, India is a leader in the scramjet business from late 90s.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 25 Oct 2010 21:21

ramana wrote:BTW, India is a leader in the scramjet business from late 90s.

Ramana why do you say we are leaders since late 90's , Do we have any test platform till date that operates using scramjet ?

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 27 Oct 2010 07:47

X-post

Northeast rebels ‘spy’ for China
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101027/j ... 105626.jsp

Beijing is using the Northeast militant groups to gain information about Indian Army deployment in Arunachal Pradesh, a National Investigation Agency probe has claimed.

Sources said National Socialist Council of Nagalim (Isak-Muivah) leader Anthony Shing, picked up from Nepal and arrested in Bihar earlier this month, had told investigators he had provided information to China on the deployment of the Agni missile in Arunachal.

The Agni-II long-range missile is said to have been deployed somewhere in the Northeast.
“Shing visited China six times in the past year,” an official said.
...

Confirmation of Agni-II deployment in NE

vic · Post by **vic** » 27 Oct 2010 12:06

Re kanson

Is the minimum height at which Akash can engage incoming target public info?

Sandeep_ghosh · Post by **Sandeep_ghosh** » 27 Oct 2010 12:27

what happened to novator K 500????????????

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 27 Oct 2010 18:33

vic wrote:Re kanson

Is the minimum height at which Akash can engage incoming target public info?

Yes, tree top height. That is low enough to engage targets that perform low-level intrusion for attack. For this Radar system has to be robust enough to work against the ground clutter. Becoz of this suddenly Akash system find itself more suitable for NE.

vic · Post by **vic** » 28 Oct 2010 00:41

So why was Akash never contemplated for navy service instead of/alongwith Shitl?

Also can it be used to defend naval bases/ports against sea skimming missiles? If yes, how come No order from IN?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 28 Oct 2010 09:29

When the Akash was progressing, IN moved from Shtil to Shtil-1 with the range ~ 50km and then to Barak-8/NG.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 31 Oct 2010 02:05

shifting the topic of SHM from the LCA thread,

The way the SHM works is it monitors the fatigue creep and other parameters in the dynamic flight condition allowing the maintenance crew to have a ready made report after landing

In that sense a missile experiences the dynamic flight only once so any health monitoring will have to be based on long duration test flights like for Agni series so that the algorithms can be fine tuned with data collected in flight similar to telemetry and extrapolate these so that one can measure the same while the missile is in storage which most likely is like predicting earthquakes, a science not well understood

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 31 Oct 2010 20:50

Here is a tidbit, possibly not known to many.

Universal, Pune developed the nitric acid pumps for Prithvi.It used to be an SSI once upon a time.

UNIVERSAL put in all its efforts to come up with a Nitric acid pump to be used in the country’s combat weapon - the Prithvi missile. The topping on the cake was when Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam - Ex President of India personally tested the pump at Hyderabad and approved of its use in missiles - as an import substitute.

From http://www.uceindia.com/Company.html

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 31 Oct 2010 20:59

Anybody know which are the desi and pardesi OEMs that meet the criteria for this deal - http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4689 ?

Thanks,

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 31 Oct 2010 22:40

^^^ Sounds like Smart Depth Charges

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 31 Oct 2010 22:43

@Austin Thanks.

/me Googles SDCs

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 02 Nov 2010 09:46

X-post

China’s Astrashastra
-By Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury
http://www.deccanchronicle.com/dc-comme ... hastra-640

“(S)ince no nation threatens China, one must wonder: Why this growing investment? Why these continuing large and expanding arms purchases? Why these continuing robust deployments?”
Donald H. Rumsfeld
Secretary of Defence, US
June 4, 2005

These and other questions posed by the “peaceful rise of China” reflect the insecurities in its neighbourhood as also its impact on the uneasy equilibrium of Sino-India relations, particularly in the context of China’s special relationship with Pakistan. Geography has been strategically adverse to India in this matrix, in which China’s core Han heartland is protected behind the strategic depth of outlying non-Han regions, whereas India’s own heartlands are well within strike ranges from both China as well as Pakistan. India has a declared no-first-use policy for its nuclear weapons, but it would be ostrich-like to dismiss the long-term perspectives of such doomsday contingencies, howsoever remote or unlikely at present.

The centrepiece of China’s military power is the formidable Second Artillery Corps, the land-based strategic missile force of the People’s Liberation Army (PLA), established in 1966. It functions directly under the Central Military Commission, China’s supreme military authority, and though it constitutes only four per cent of the PLA, is annually allotted 12-15 per cent of the national defence budget, and 20 per cent of the procurement budget. The formation is equipped with indigenous missiles of the DF (“Dong Feng” or East Wind) series, all of which are capable of carrying both nuclear and conventional warheads. Sometimes referred to as “the Divine Swords”, Dong Feng missiles range in size and performance from strategic intercontinental ballistic missiles (ICBM) like the DF-5, and DF-31 which can reach targets in Europe and North America, to theatre-level intermediate and medium-range ballistic missiles (MRBM) like the ubiquitous DF-4 and DF-21 which can cover targets in Asia and the Pacific region, besides short-range ballistic missiles (SRBM) like the DF-15.

The DF-21 MRBM has reportedly also been modified as an anti-ship “carrier buster” specifically designed to engage American carrier task forces in the western Pacific and East China seas, though there is some scepticism about these claims. In addition, the Chinese Navy has its own strategic assets in the form of a single nuclear submarine of the Xia class, carrying the Julang 1 (Giant Wave) submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM) with a range of 1,700 kilometres.

Second Artillery Corps is headquartered at Qinghe, and organised into six “bases” dispersed throughout the country, numbered from 51 to 56, each fielding two to 12 missile brigades, for an estimated total of 40 operational missile units. Needless to say all parts of India are covered by the reach of China’s Dong Feng missiles, and of special concern are No. 56 Missile Base of eight missile brigades located in Tibet and north-western China, and No. 53 Missile Base of four missile brigades in south-western China, whose units can engage all parts of India almost in situ, while China’s Xia can emerge from its lair in the new submarine base on Hainan Island and engage targets in India from within Chinese territorial waters.

China has a record of unabashed proliferation of both missile as well as nuclear weapon technologies, most notably to Pakistan, to whom large numbers of the intermediate-range ballistic missiles DF-15 in the M9 and M11 versions have been sold or otherwise provided at “friendship terms”. The potential threat from China’s strategic missile forces positioned to the north and east of India is supplemented by those of Pakistan which poses a similar threat to the country from the west.

Pakistan’s missile forces are all nuclear capable and totally India-oriented, equipped with M11 and M9 export versions of the basic Chinese DF-15 missile, redesignated in Pakistan as the Hatf and Shaheen series respectively. Pakistan’s strategic assets are grouped under the Strategic Forces Command (SFC) of the Pakistan Army, organised around three Strategic Missile Groups as a separate corps-level force headquartered at Rawalpindi. Their overall command and control rests with the country’s National Command Authority (NCA), the apex body controlling nuclear release with the Strategic Plans Division of the General Headquarters providing planning and staff support.

India’s plans for deterrence were initially hesitant due to political ambivalence based on moral philosophies, but subsequently, after several stumbles and false starts, the strategic weapons programme meaningfully commenced in 1983 with the Integrated Guided Missile Development Project comprising five missile programmes, including the (150/250 km) Prithvi SRBM series. Amongst these, the Prithvi programme subsequently expanded and developed along twin tracks, the shorter-range, Pakistan-specific Prithvi SRBM series and the longer-range Agni MRBM series oriented towards more distant objectives, the latest being the Agni III, with a 3,500 km range, but still inadequate for comprehensive deterrence against China.

Indian strategic weapons are held by their respective services, organised into missile groups with operational control resting with the tri-services SFC under the Chiefs of Staff Committee and the ultimate level of decision making by the NCA under the chairmanship of the Prime Minster. It must be emphasised here that India’s strategic forces can achieve true credibility only if they are completely based on ICBM and MRBM. The SRBM, like the Prithvi, have to be allotted a conventional battlefield missile role and possibly handed down to artillery divisions for support of tactical operations. Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has just commenced its own strategic programme with the launch of the nuclear powered submarine Arihant to be complemented sometime in the future with the short-range (reportedly 700 km) submarine-launched missile Sagarika (K-15), appropriate enough for a technology demonstrator, but of far too limited and uncertain a reach to be a credible submarine-launched deterrent.

In their present stage, India’s strategic missile forces can be dispassionately assessed as technologically adequate but numerically deficient for the multiple potential threats the country faces. Also, the critically vital necessity of a defensive shield of anti-ballistic missiles is completely lacking at present, but reported to be under development. It has to be expedited on priority, as a matter of national survival. Strategic missile forces are the hardcore of deterrence as well as coercion, and India’s strategic forces have to match and, where possible, dominate those of its potential adversaries. The Brahmastra is necessary to counter the Divine Swords.
- Gen. Shankar Roychowdhury is a former Chief of Army Staff and a former Member of Parliament

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 02 Nov 2010 21:05

So is the defensive shield the Brahmastra? Good to see that KSunderji's realist school thoughts are still alive.

Hope he writes more.

JVKrishnan · Post by **JVKrishnan** » 03 Nov 2010 17:16

SriSri wrote:Anybody know which are the desi and pardesi OEMs that meet the criteria for this deal - http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4689 ?

Thanks,

try,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_46_torpedo
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_50_torpedo
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ship/weaps/mk-50.htm

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 10 Nov 2010 09:25

Going great guns
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Going-gre ... 23683.aspx

..
If the DRDO has set its sights on perfecting seeker technology for its missiles, ISRO is gunning for high-end microprocessors for use in the supercomputers onboard satellites as well as cutting-edge microwave technology for satellites and rockets. Seekers help missiles pick and destroy targets.

A DRDO source said, “Seeker and sensor technologies have not been our forte. The lifting of restrictions comes as a booster shot for the defence sector.”

An ISRO official said, “Now we are buying technologies from Europe…But the US offers better technologies at competitive prices.” ISRO will consider importing testing technology for satellites, which will allow scientists to test whether satellites can “withstand rigors of space”.

A DRDO source said, “So far we were collaborating with the US only in areas such as life sciences, agriculture and medicine…Now we can look forward to the flow of well-guarded technologies in areas such as missile development, aerospace, nuclear, biological and chemical warfare and nanotechnology for military applications.”

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Nov 2010 09:08

Popular Mechanics, Dec 2010 print edition has story on China's War plans. It has a graphic of a missile that starts out ballistic and then after going over the top it dips into a flat trajectory an then dives to its target.
The blurb says the flat trajectory allows a radar seeker to seek out its target and once near it uses it IR seeker to home in. Looks like a very sensor rich vehicle! must be suign all those nvidia graphics chips.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Nov 2010 18:20

Great Video of Shaurya Launch ( via livefist) , the speed is quite amazing , probably hypersonic from the word go

Bihanga · Post by **Bihanga** » 13 Nov 2010 18:37

I don't know, but why does I feel, this Shourya Missile looks more like a long range Cruise Missile rather then a Ballastic Missile?, since it flight trajectory simply hinting at a cruise missile standards.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 13 Nov 2010 18:46

^^
That is because Shaurya is a Hybrid Missile.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 Nov 2010 18:50

I think it has been repeated many times at BRF that Shaurya is a Hypersonic Boost Glide Vehical ( BGRV )

chiru · Post by **chiru** » 13 Nov 2010 20:47

^^ GUYS i have a pooch in the above video at 1:05 mins a bang is heard, is it the shourya going SUPERSONIC ????

Vril · Post by **Vril** » 21 Nov 2010 00:13

cross posting from ATV thread

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 11#p981811

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 21 Nov 2010 02:06

edited.....................already posted

Narad · Post by **Narad** » 21 Nov 2010 15:30

THE BIG STORY: INDIA TESTED TOP SECRET 3500 KM SLBM THE K4[/color]
[/size]

In a dramatic breakthrough in its nuclear offensive capability, India has successfully tested a submarine-launched ballistic missile(SLBM) with an eventual range of 3,500 km. Tested secretly off Visakhapatnam in January this year, the 10-m long and 1.3 m wide missile emerged from a pontoon submerged 50 m underwater and breached the surface.Painted black and white so that i can be distinguished in water, it has passed a critical parameter......

In the works is an as yet unnamed longer-legged variant of the k-4 with a 5,000-km range. The 12 m long missile is meant to arm future nuclear submarines.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/4039/20462914.jpg
http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/1839/66602302.jpg
http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/939/94214502.jpg

Source : India Today Latest Nov 2010 edition released today. Snapshots attached

~~ANd "K" Stands for KALAM.~~[/size]

Aditya G · Post by **Aditya G** » 21 Nov 2010 16:50

Hmmm there is the new missile Air Launched Article or K-ALA-M.

Not sure is linking missiles to individuals is the best practice.