MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

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Philip
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Philip »

I don't know if this has been posted earlier,but it does contain some key factors that should be critical when deciding whether the MMRCA should be twin or single-engined.Austrian and Romanian offers/analysis shows intersting comparisons with ourrequirement.I would think that the IAF would preferably go in for a twin-engined fighter,but in the short list might keep the Gripen in as a bargaining chip.Perhaps the short list might be thus:Typhoon,F-18,MIG-35 and Gripen.I think that the Rafale will be dropped from the list (evaluation of the Typhoon and Rafale thus far might show the former to be marginally superior-both being the most expensive) unless Sarko on his visit makes an "offer that we can't refuse",that being immediate delivery of a couple of squadrons of French Rafales,until new-build Rafales are available-the same manner in which we acquired SU-30s,along with a heavy discount on M-2000 upgrades.The current strikes in France might put pressure upon the French to try and win this at any cost.

http://www.stratpost.com/how-many-engines-for-the-mmrca

Xcpts:
How do you compare the cost and reliability of a single-engine aircraft with a twin-engine aircraft? It seems obvious that single-engine aircraft would be much cheaper to buy and maintain, especially in terms of life-cycle cost, and that the reliability of twin-engine aircraft would exceed those of single-engine aircraft.

And if the IAF gives no extra points for performance exceeding the ASQR parameters laid down, then a decision on selection could rest solely with the MoD judging the commercial bids, where single-engine fighters would have an edge in terms of pricing.

Or would they?

The Austrian decision on the purchase of fighter aircraft is an interesting study of how a unified measure of the cost of the two types of aircraft with respect to their performance can be quantified.

The Austrian Court of Auditors examined the award of a contract for the supply of 24 Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft to the Österreichische Luftstreitkräfte (Austrian Air Force) in 2004, which had been competing with the Swedish Gripen for the order. The court looked at the process their Austrian Ministry of Defense used to arrive at a cost and utility analysis of the two aircraft on the basis of a mathematical model.

The court scanned the process their MoD used for gauging the operational capabilities of the two aircraft — what the report refers to as ‘the military benefits of an aircraft’ or what it means in a fight. Weightage was given to different criteria of performance (range, payload etc), which were tabulated and summed up out of a maximum cumulative weightage of 1000 points. The Eurofighter Typhoon scored a little higher in terms of the weightage given by the Austrian Air Force for performance with respect to their requirements.

The report says the auditors, evaluating the result of the Austrian Air Force and the MoD, found that weightage given to 35 performance criteria required adjustment, which resulted in a further shift of the cumulative weightage in favor of the Eurofighter Typhoon.

The relationship between the respective costs and the military benefits or operational performance of the two aircraft produced the cost benefit/utility analysis, which was a quantification of military benefits and what they cost. The cost benefit/utility analysis reflects the quantification of benefits with respect to their costs. The Austrian Air Force was looking for the maximum capability at the best price, or the ‘best bidder’.

In case of payment on delivery or in ten equal half-yearly annual installments Gripen offered the better deal. In case payment were made in 18 equal half-yearly installments, the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was better.

But the unit price for the Eurofighter Typhoon wasn’t necessarily lower than that of the Gripen. What the court validated was the judgment of the MoD that the offer for the Eurofighter Typhoon was more attractive, considering the payment model being offered for the performance criteria matched by the aircraft. While the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was higher than that of Gripen if payment were made on delivery or over ten half-yearly installments, the cost and utility analysis of the Eurofighter Typhoon offer was a little less than Gripen’s quote, if payments were made in 18 half-yearly installments.

What’s also interesting is that the offer made by the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium for 24 aircraft by payment on delivery wasn’t all that much higher than the offer made by Gripen (the order was later reduced to 18, and then, 15 aircraft). This, in spite of the fact that the engine in a fighter is often considered to make up around one-third of the value of the aircraft.

But at the same time Jane’s has reported a different scenario in the ongoing Romanian process for acquisition of 24 fighter aircraft, with Saab ready to offer 24 new Gripen aircraft at a cost of EUR 1 billion, against 24 second-hand Eurofighter Typhoon aircraft (and also, 24 second-hand F-16 aircraft) being offered at the same price.

It must be noted the costs considered by the Austrian Air Force and Ministry of Defense were not life-cycle costs, as India is going to adjudge. The costs are the offers made for the aircraft, in addition to weapons systems and other support systems. Nor does the report mention the performance criteria which were weighed in tabulating the cumulative military benefits of both aircraft. Each performance criteria may also be weighed differently and indeed, Indian requirements may well be very different.

But at the stage of consideration of the commercial bids, will the ministry also look at issues such as the opportunity cost in the event of a crash of one of these aircraft? “If a single-engine aircraft loses an engine, say in the event of a bird hit, the IAF loses the aircraft and possibly also the pilot. If a twin-engine aircraft loses an engine, the IAF loses an engine, which can be replaced,” says the representative of another vendor in the contest. But single-engine fighter aircraft vendors claim that engines in current twin-engine aircraft have very few failure modes that allow an engine to run in case the other fails and that they are so closely fitted that an engine down due to bird hit or weapon strike would probably result in an explosion, causing the other to malfunction.

Most aircraft in the MMRCA competition are fairly recent developments and do not have an operational history lengthy enough to get an idea of their reliability in terms of the number of their engines.

The United States Air Force (USAF) figures tabulating engine-related Class A mishaps for single-engine and twin-engine aircraft tell an interesting story. Class A mishaps are those where the total cost of damage is $1 million or more, and/or involves destroyed aircraft, and/or fatal injury, and/or permanent total disability. The USAF Air Safety Center has tabulated charts up to March 31, 2010 and, in general, the rate of engine-related Class A mishaps is higher in single-engine combat aircraft than in twin-engine aircraft.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Nihat »

phiip, can you please divide longer posts into paragraphs to make them easier to read.

Also, the price of either rafale or EF is no indicator of thier performance, because by this logic mig - 35 would be utter trash
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by iparvas »

GRIPEN NG really looks good performace and price .... only problem is the American companies trying to pressure SAAB out of the competition.

Rafale is a good fighter ... also it has no foreign sales till date which makes it attractive because besides the French on one else truly knows its technical capabilities during combat .... since most of the fighters like the F 18, F 16 , Typhoon have been bought by Gulf countries where some Pakistani origin pilots fly them ... no pakistani pilot has yet flown a Rafale ... so this makes this plane special so India should utilize this advantage ...
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Singha »

the UAE eval revealed some gaps in rafale and the french asked UAE around $2b to develop and improve technology to plug these gaps. UAE is seriously considering F-18 now (per media report) because the radar and ECM is upto their expectation as-is.

also there is no word on M88 growth version (neither of the EJ-210), while GE does have 414 improved version in testing for 3-4 yrs and is supplying them both to gripenNG and TejasMk2.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

nrshah wrote:No F-35 for India

That brings end to all the discussion about cancelling MMRCA and go for F 35...
The discussion was hypothetical really. The MMRCA was never going to be cancelled for the F-35. That was an opinion put forward in a personal capacity by Col. Ajai Shukla and he never claimed such a plan would actually materialize. The MoD policy (contrary to public opinion) is not influenced by journos (on Russian, American or Swedish payrolls), except in matters of corruption.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Cain Marko »

Singha wrote:the UAE eval revealed some gaps in rafale and the french asked UAE around $2b to develop and improve technology to plug these gaps. UAE is seriously considering F-18 now (per media report) because the radar and ECM is upto their expectation as-is.

also there is no word on M88 growth version (neither of the EJ-210), while GE does have 414 improved version in testing for 3-4 yrs and is supplying them both to gripenNG and TejasMk2.
Strangely enough, the RMAF prefered the Su-30MKM over the Apg 79 equipped Shornet after evaluating both (makes you wonder about the true capabilities of the Bars). The Rafale with the RBE 2 AESA seems to have everything and more vis a vis the Shornet (except of course the wide variety of munitions available to the Shornet).

Sheikdom purchases are not the greatest reflection of a/c capabilities imho. Rafale is expensive but seems like the real independent choice in the race. Also seems to have incorporated advanced/diverse technologies the most.

CM.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SaiK »

AdityaM wrote:India expels Eurojet arms dealer
A well-known German arms dealer has been expelled from India after he audaciously attempted to manipulate a mega defence contract.
mmm.. could be a post here as well. 1 Mach typhoon advances, 2 machs it retards!
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Danell »

Singha wrote:the UAE eval revealed some gaps in rafale and the french asked UAE around $2b to develop and improve technology to plug these gaps. UAE is seriously considering F-18 now (per media report) because the radar and ECM is upto their expectation as-is.

also there is no word on M88 growth version (neither of the EJ-210), while GE does have 414 improved version in testing for 3-4 yrs and is supplying them both to gripenNG and TejasMk2.
Not at all ;)
Now we know what was behind the breakdown of talks between France and UAE in august:
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6904SF20101001
But the negotiations are still ongoing with intensity , according to the French M.O.D.'s spokesman:
http://currents.westlawbusiness.com/Art ... =&src=&sp=

Btw, rich UAE are doing with the Rafale what they did with with all their combat aircrafts (F16, Mirage 2000) and are asking for a special UAE version which in fact corresponds roughly to a F4 Rafale. But, according to General Silvy, there is still a possibility they finally choose a Rafale close to the current F3 to facilitate joint maintenance and training with the French Rafale (from 2011, there will be a squadron of French Rafale permanently based in the UAE)

About the M88 roadmap :
The upgraded M88-4E will be delivered in 2011
http://www.defencetalk.com/rafale-fight ... ine-26198/
The M88-9, based on the ECO demonstrator (2009) , should be available in 2014 (source Air&Cosmos, july 23)
Image


At last, people should remember some countries have already compared the Rafale with the Superhornet, like the Netherland for example:
Image
I hope we'll have soon official documents coming from the brazilian competition too.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Karan M »

^^

Danell, is that the Gripen NG in the above chart? Seems to have done rather badly
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Danell »

not at that time , it was probably the Gripen C/D i think
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SaiK »

The recent saudi deal:-
The new deal includes 84 new F-15 fighter planes, and nearly 200 Apache, Black Hawk and Little Bird helicopters, as well as upgrades for 70 other fighter planes.
quite formidable indeed. I hope pakis don't get to beg, steal or borrow these by any means. It is important to know about our surroundings now.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by negi »

Future is made in India (Gripen IN-PDF)
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by NRao »

At last, people should remember some countries have already compared the Rafale with the Superhornet, like the Netherland for example
I am not sure what other nation's comparisons have to do with Indian M/MRCA. We should expect Indian/Israeli/French components in any plane that is selected by India. Recall that there were even reports of Israelis suggesting that India get the F-16 and use Israeli avionics, etc - as in the Soufa.

Brazilian experience cannot impact Indian selection.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Singha »

I dont know anything about aesa but have read here that antenna diameter determines the maximum range. in that sense how does Rbe2 compare to apg79? the rafale nose looks more elegant yet smaller to me in photos vs sh/ef.
since india is a long way from being able to provide pervasive awacs support in a wide-front war, fighter units have to fend for themselves many a time and longer range radar the better for tracking.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Danell »

NRao wrote:
At last, people should remember some countries have already compared the Rafale with the Superhornet, like the Netherland for example
I am not sure what other nation's comparisons have to do with Indian M/MRCA. We should expect Indian/Israeli/French components in any plane that is selected by India. Recall that there were even reports of Israelis suggesting that India get the F-16 and use Israeli avionics, etc - as in the Soufa.

Brazilian experience cannot impact Indian selection.
Me neither, i am not sure, because we don't know precisely the specifications and the technical criterias of all these evaluations ; but from my point of view, these are interesting infos ...more serious than any evaluations made in forums ;)
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

Singha wrote:I dont know anything about aesa but have read here that antenna diameter determines the maximum range. in that sense how does Rbe2 compare to apg79? the rafale nose looks more elegant yet smaller to me in photos vs sh/ef.
since india is a long way from being able to provide pervasive awacs support in a wide-front war, fighter units have to fend for themselves many a time and longer range radar the better for tracking.
AFAIK they both have about the same number of T/R modules at 1000+(Rafale) and 1100(SH). Well below the Captor-E's 1425 on the Eurofighter. Only the F-22 and PAK-FA (and maybe an upgraded Su-30/35) will feature larger AESAs.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Pratik_S »

Singha wrote:I dont know anything about aesa but have read here that antenna diameter determines the maximum range. in that sense how does Rbe2 compare to apg79? the rafale nose looks more elegant yet smaller to me in photos vs sh/ef.
since india is a long way from being able to provide pervasive awacs support in a wide-front war, fighter units have to fend for themselves many a time and longer range radar the better for tracking.
Diameter of Rafael's current radar is 55cms and the RBE2 AESA is expected to be of the same diameter. Now the info on the APG-79 is not available but as you pointed out the size of SH's radome seems considerably larger than that of the Rafael. Another important specification which one must consider while comparing two AESA's is the no of T/R modules. Thales claims the RBE-2 AESA has around 1000 T/R modules and again there is no official word on the APG-79 but its widely believed to have 1100 T/R modules.
Good read on RBE-2
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... radar.html
http://www.thalesgroup.com/Press_Releas ... _of_tests/
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by abhik »

Cain Marko wrote:
Singha wrote: ....
Strangely enough, the RMAF prefered the Su-30MKM over the Apg 79 equipped Shornet after evaluating both (makes you wonder about the true capabilities of the Bars).....
More likely because of the 'restrictions' they faced on their Hornets than the capabilities of either planes.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by abhik »

AdityaM wrote:India expels Eurojet arms dealer
A well-known German arms dealer has been expelled from India after he audaciously attempted to manipulate a mega defence contract.
Whats really interesting is that the reporter says after getting caught he planted misleading info in the media/press that eurojet's bid was much lower than GE's. And guess who had the exclusive leak? yes you guessed it right Ajai shukla I mean shook-low.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SaiK »

Good point abhik, perhaps CBI/CAG should note your post.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Viv S »

abhik wrote: Whats really interesting is that the reporter says after getting caught he planted misleading info in the media/press that eurojet's bid was much lower than GE's. And guess who had the exclusive leak? yes you guessed it right Ajai shukla I mean shook-low.
According to his blog, the Eurojet's initial bid WAS lower than GE's. Its only after evaluation and accounting of the various/misc./omitted costs that the DRDO brass ruled in favour of the GE bid.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by srai »

negi wrote:Future is made in India (Gripen IN-PDF)
Strictly looking from balancing IAF inventory between the single and twin engined combat aircrafts, it would make sense for IAF to go for Gripen IN.

Around 2025, IAF's fleet breakup would look something like this:

370 Single-Engined -> 130 LCA (40 Mk.1 + 90 Mk.2) + 190 Gripen NG (126 + 64 options) + 50 Mirage-2000UPG
430 Twin-Engined -> 270 MKI (50 + 140 + 40 + 42) + ~100 PAK-FA/FGFA (eventual 250) + 60 MiG-29UPG

Ratio: 45% single-engined to 55% twin-engined


Around 2035, if IAF further inducts 5 squadrons of LCA (in Mk.3 version) or Gripen NG, ratio will be 40:60:

410 Single-Engined -> 220 LCA (40 Mk.1 + 90 Mk.2 + 90 Mk.3) + 190 Gripen NG (126 + 64 options)
620 Twin-Engined -> 270 MKI (50 + 140 + 40 + 42) + 250 PAK-FA/FGFA + ~100 AMCA (eventual 200+)

Ratio: 40% single-engined to 60% twin-engined
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by chackojoseph »

Eurofighter Supervisory Board meets in New Delhi for the first time

Bernhard Gerwert, Chairman of the Supervisory Board of Eurofighter GmbH and CEO of EADS subsidiary Cassidian Air Systems, says “The Eurofighter Supervisory Board is meeting in New Delhi to underline the importance we attach to integrating India into the programme as a true and equal industrial partner. Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India’s defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon.”
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Singha »

^ :rotfl:
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by koti »

I did not get the funny part. :)

Can anyone explain in laymen terms.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

board meetings can happen anywhere, some companies like to rotate it around the world to show their troops that they are committed or to allow the execs to play golf in resorts they haven't been to yet (take your pick)

having the meeting in india is a low cost option to create some free publicity... afterall, how many indian participants will be there in the meeting?
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by amit »

^^^^^

Boss, let's put it this way. Have every come across an over-eager salesman with a hint of desperation showing?

Now think of the significance of what Singha highlighted! :)
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by amit »

Lalmohan wrote:board meetings can happen anywhere, some companies like to rotate it around the world to show their troops that they are committed or to allow the execs to play golf in resorts they haven't been to yet (take your pick)

having the meeting in india is a low cost option to create some free publicity... afterall, how many indian participants will be there in the meeting?
Even ahead of any contract, we are ready to engage India’s defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon.”
:)
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by sumshyam »

chackojoseph wrote: we are ready to engage India’s defence and aerospace industry in joint production and research & development (R&D) for Eurofighter Typhoon.”
Good Enough.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by SriSri »

amit wrote:^^^^^

Boss, let's put it this way. Have every come across an over-eager salesman with a hint of desperation showing?

Now think of the significance of what Singha highlighted! :)
I beg to differ. They are trying hard. But so are the Americans and other Europeans. I must say working with Europeans will be a very good experience for which ever Indian group they tie up with. Minus the French of course! ;-)
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by JTull »

Nothing new. Companies are increasingly moving to where the markets are. HSBC, one of the biggest British banks, has moved its senior executuves (incl. CEO) to Hong Kong. It is still primarily a Bristish bank, but it knows where it should focus more. ICC has moved it's headquarters to Dubai because of dominant Asian bloc.

Not very different from PM making the trip to Tokyo and making the nuke-deal a cornerstone to the success of the trip. And the very next day he claimed the deal to be not very important. That is desperate, and not unlike Zardari taking the F-16 begging bowl to US.

Rather than mock them, we should feel proud that India is getting the attention that it long deserved. We don't need their flattery but we definitely need their attention.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by shukla »

Well at least they are giving it their all...Can't fault them for trying.

Seems like their bitter experience of loosing out to GE in a close finish for the LCA engine has hurt..They are going full throttle and leaving no stone unturned.. good to see.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Juggi G »

India Eyes $11bn US Fighter Jets
Image
India will turn increasingly to US defence products to secure its borders and wider interests, top Indian officials have said ahead of a visit by Barack Obama, US president, next month.

Top Indian officials say defence co-operation and the purchase of equipment is a key part of the strategic dialogue between New Delhi and Washington. They say their potential purchase of military equipment from the US is important for the American economy at a time when the administration needs to create jobs to overcome an unemployment crisis.

However, people familiar with the bidding process for the fighter jets say any decision is unlikely until mid-2011 and will in large part depend on sealed bids by the defence groups that will determine the price of any transaction.

In addition, the attractiveness of the US offers could be affected by India’s reluctance to sign technical agreements with the US that would allow transfer of navigation and targeting technology.

Some Indian officials have expressed misgivings about acquiring equipment that is “interoperable” with the US, for fear of aligning New Delhi too closely with Washington.

US defence sales to India have risen steadily, with Robert Gates, defence secretary, saying India’s decisions concern not just equipment but relations between the two countries.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

^^^ there are more stones... i'd like to see them lobby their governments to be much more India leaning and Pakistan castigating
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by nachiket »

I can understand EADS' predicament. They know prety well that their chances of being the L-1 bidder are about the same as India's chances of winning the next football world cup :P. They have no option but to resort to other means to convince the MoD to keep them in the running.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Juggi G »

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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Lalmohan »

i disagree nachiket, i think they have quite a strong chance
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Gagan »

The eurofighter typhoon team has some really good offers on the table.
Their offer of making India the 5th partner in the EF typhoon with all development work, Typhoon to be a made in India product, the next gen AESA TR modules from the word go, etc make this a unique offer.

I think they are the real front runners.
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Re: MRCA Discussion - October 2, 2010

Post by Gagan »

If the F-35 JSF was never offered to India, then what is this during Aero India?
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