J & K news and discussion

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 13:09

Hari Seldon wrote:
Lalmohan wrote:oh dear amit, you are begining to sound like a raj apologist
IMVVVVHO onlee
Thus spake the raj apologist? IMVVHO only.

Hmmm there you have it. In 1962 we were still being ruled by the Raj via proxy - the original Privy Council ruling would have made it clear cut - the police could have arrested A Roy and thrown the keys away. (Lal Mullah this part is for those who may have missed the irony in your post ). Why some folks would even say we are still being ruled by the Raj - the one symbolized by the Eagle.

All is Maaya onlee...

So relax and take a deep pull on the chillium.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 13:15

i see the guardian has managed to stir itself and write a pro-SuAR editorial. a large number of very articulate indians have registered their protests in the comments. some of the usual islamist apologists have joined in, but are surprisingly muted. the overwhelming sentiment in the comments is that she's only looking out for herself

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 28 Oct 2010 13:20

I know when I am beat. This is one of those times (refers to Amit). Happens every now and then. Helps re-learn humility and the basics. And keeps me away from BRF addiction a while at least.

Ciao and jai ho.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 13:36

oh far be it from me to seek takkar with you hari-ji, i am an unwashed abdul onlee, withering in the shadow of your intellectual luminescence, let us both enjoy amitbabu's incisive wit

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Oct 2010 13:47

Sooner or later even the masters of spin stutter just a bit and the mask slips to reveal what is inside.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 13:48

I'm sorry Hari but I fail to see how this is a zero sum game where somebody wins and somebody loses. We all come here and spend time because we all have one thing is common, that is we want to see India win.

And we are Argumentative Indians as Amartya Sen Sir has put it so nicely. And we all have strong opinons (in fact as a friend of mine once said, if you lock up three Indians in a room to discuss something you'll get four opinons!).

And so we fight, we shout and we argue. But I would like to think at the end of the day we reach a consensus on what is really good for India. On an Internet fora what more could you ask for?

PS: The chillium pipe suggestion is still open.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 13:50

Sanku wrote:Sooner or later even the masters of spin stutter just a bit and the mask slips to reveal what is inside.

So right Sanku. We saw ample evidence of that on the C17 thread.

It took Lal Mullah and his Lal-chicks (did not come via the RFI/RFP route) to bring back a semblance of sanity there.

Perhaps A Roy can join the merry band of Lal chicks, that should cool her down? How about that Lal Mullah?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 13:51

sankuji, you are too clever for me, please to explain onlee

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Oct 2010 13:57

Lalmohan wrote:sankuji, you are too clever for me, please to explain onlee

Nothing to explain Lalmohanji, a simple statement looking at various contortions people put themselves through to be in brazen outright denial about very simple things. But just to clarify, what ever it was, did not definitely had to do with you.

I hope the value I place on your thoughts has been visible through my posts in various interactions.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 14:15

amitbabu, whilst there is no RFI/RFP for induction into lal-chix service, i am afraid that dirty-boy-roy did not make it past pre-RFI qualification stage, though her laalness is in little doubt. i seem to recall bips-ji did a much more remarkably laal-salaam in one (or more) movies, now that is far more conducive to the lal-way of things

sankuji, thank you for your thoughts

meanwhile back on planet J&K dhaaga..., i was about to say that the stone throwers seem to have melted into the autumn mists?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 15:24

Amit,

Please I beg of you, don't bring A Roy as a lal chick. Even if she is the last wimmen on the planet. Will tell you why. My mom saw her back in the early 90s or was it late 80s at an awards function for Malgidi days (A roy was a script writer ). And was saying not the most attractive of wimmins. FF 20 years imagin what will have happned to her looks.

Will be sreaming into the night with nightmares if she is one of the Lal chicks.

Once again please.

JMT.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Oct 2010 15:25

And i'm still thinking how SuAR met those stone pelters who were shot so cruelly between the eyes..

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Oct 2010 15:25

harbans wrote:And i'm still thinking how SuAR met those stone pelters who were shot so cruelly between the eyes..

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 15:26

no need to imagine, she has been captured in various provocative poses on various newspapers recently
its all there in garish technicolor...
but please, we are here to discuss her intellect...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 15:27

May be she was reading Ruskin Bond, and she met one in her nighmare.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 15:28

LM, didnt you mean, the lack of it

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 15:31

shot thru the eyes
and you're to blame
suzy, you give jehad a bad name...
woah-oh-o-o-woaah-oh-o
fatwah was given
but it was all in vain
suzy, you give jehad a bad name...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 15:32

Me

A Roy supporters

I officially declare the thread derailed

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 15:43

Su AR by herself is bad enough. The more serious problem is she attracts intellectual lightweights like moths are attracted to firefly. Note the stupid tweet by Konkona Sensharma saying I support Su A R. Support Su AR? I wonder if she even paused to think support what? Her preposterous statement on Kashmir? Or her "right" to say stupid things misusing the freedom of speech platform?

Sooner or later GoI will have to make an example of either her or some of her kindred soul mates like Teesta. Maybe the best way to do that is to mobilise civil society against them. One heartening thing I've noticed is that all comments on online websites to reports on this episode have been uniformly negative. I hope, just hope, Su AR bit off more than she can chew with this latest outrage. My feeling is Kashmir (especially post 26/11) is a more emotive issue than even the Maoist insurgency as far as the public's perceptions go.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 15:46

Pratyush wrote:Amit,

Please I beg of you, don't bring A Roy as a lal chick. Even if she is the last wimmen on the planet. Will tell you why. My mom saw her back in the early 90s or was it late 80s at an awards function for Malgidi days (A roy was a script writer ). And was saying not the most attractive of wimmins. FF 20 years imagin what will have happned to her looks.

Will be sreaming into the night with nightmares if she is one of the Lal chicks.

Once again please.

JMT.

It is not my call. And besides Lal Mullah has already rejected the birdie even pre-RFI, even though that's against the rules laid down by GoI.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 15:50

When has lal mullah has followed the rules laid down by any one hain ji............

He seems to be waltzing in and derailing threads with the Lal Chicks left right and center. With eager young mujhajids like me in eager attendence.

Always ready for Mijjil malish etc, etc or was it ityadi, ityadi.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 15:51

amitbabu, i am doing government to government foreign direct sales onlee
confirmation trials in the hills to sikkim to follow
singaporean candidates will have to wait

p.s. i didn't raise the lal-chix in this dhaga!

Luit · Post by **Luit** » 28 Oct 2010 15:59

does anyone have any information on the interlocutors?

Padgaonkar looks like a suspicious character. has a ToIlet (aman ki asha) background and is Omar Abdullah's candidate.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 16:01

as someone said earlier, the interlocuters have no power. they are providing chai-biskoot to take the heat off unkil's demands for the need to talk to pak to resolve their khujli, so that pak can take more action on the western front. the valley wahabbis are being taken for a ride by their so called supporters (again)

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 16:03

Last post on this topic I promise. But before I run away shouting in comming will say this.

Your claim to innocence is seen and rejected out of hand.

As it was you who first introduced us to the lal chicks.

So you must share the blame, even though Amit introduced them on this thread.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 16:03

Sanku ji (and others) in his infinite wisdom thinks I'm trying to spin the fact that Su AR was not arrested.

Well wonder of wonders even Swapan Dasgupta seems to think it would have been a bad idea to arrest her. Maybe he's also spinning something (perhaps the chakra?) See here

Actually, the speech of Arundhati Roy was more incendiary than that of Geelani who repeated the hoary line about “self-determination” and tripartite talks to hammer out a solution. In fact, Geelani stressed he wasn’t against India but wanted a “free” Kashmir where — and he was at pains to spell this out — Islamic strictures against consuming alcohol would not apply to the minorities.

Whether the policemen who examine the transcripts of the ‘convention’ will also feel that Arundhati Roy crossed the Lakshman rekha between the acceptable and unacceptable is unknown. The irony is that a publicity-conscious pamphleteer would love to be prosecuted for sedition and, preferably, even arrested. The spectacle of a small, innocent-looking, soft-spoken woman who is a celebrity in the Noam Chomsky-loving classes in the West being led away by burly, pot-bellied policemen will make for wonderful TV and is calculated to whet the appetites of all who believe that India’s democracy is counterfeit. It will have a global impact and may even bring forth a petition calling for her release signed by the who’s who of the Manhattan establishment. Maybe President Barack Obama will also chip in.

An Arundhati Roy charged with sedition for daring to question India’s ‘occupation’ of Kashmir will be the best thing to have happened to a movement that never quite succeeded in putting the stone throwers on par with the Palestinian intifada. The attempts to transform the disturbances in Kashmir into an international human rights issue has failed mainly because India has too many better things to offer. The last thing we now need is to make Arundhati Roy into India’s Liu Xiaobo and Geelani into the Taliban-loving Amnesty International’s ‘prisoner of conscience’.

Jaitley is right about the law and the Constitution but he is wrong about the political wisdom of prosecuting secessionists for non-violent offences. Geelani routinely makes speeches in Srinagar that are far more provocative than the one he made last Thursday in Delhi. The fact that he made it in Delhi doesn’t worsen the offence. Both Srinagar and Delhi are, after all, in India.

Secessionism has to be countered both militarily and through arguments. An argumentative environment is India’s best advertisement against intolerant Maoism and Islamism.

My God, does Swapan read BRF?

Another very famous watering hole for Su AR has this to say:

Since yesterday, there have been reports that while the home ministry has got the legal opinion it had sought to book sedition cases against Roy and Geelani, the home minister was hesitating to ask the police to take action as that would mean arresting Arundhati Roy, something that most observers agree would be the wrong move tactically, as it would result in international attention.

Incidentally, more than one lawyer has cited Kedar Nath vs State of Punjab to point out that a constitution bench of the Supreme Court clarified in 1962 that nothing would be considered sedition unless there was a call for armed revolt or for use of violence.

This is the same case I cited in my post.

It seems I'm not the only spinner. Well I'll be dammed!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 16:04

Just to amplify LM, it is not the fault of the GOI if the KVM get taken for a ride by the chanikian moves of the GOI.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 28 Oct 2010 16:09

will be interesting to see if SuAR now asks for a violent uprising...

amitbabu - you are not only (narmada) dammed, you must now lock yourself into a small room with 2 lalchix and report yourself to HR

pratyushji - GOI chank-pandey moves notwithstanding, KVM valley wahabbis are the most idiotic of cannon fodders in history

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 16:15

Lalmohan wrote:will be interesting to see if SuAR now asks for a violent uprising...

That would be the long rope she needs to hang herself. I just pray that she ups the ante.

amitbabu - you are not only (narmada) dammed, you must now lock yourself into a small room with 2 lalchix and report yourself to HR

I also want one white ghagra one as a spare. You can then throw away the keys!

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 16:22

Very true, the only party which will not exploit then is teh GOI. Yet it is the GOi which is at the recieving end of the anger. They are not even thinking about the COK / POK. It is the GOI which is to blame for all the ills.

Truly Fcuked up thinking. They have the gall to say that non muslim minorities will be protected in an Azad Kashmir. What bull $hit?

No clear thinking in the masses. In that Padgaonker (SP??) chap has done a good thing, get them to spell out just what azadi for them truly means and why.

The next step will be to deconstruct the notion of azadi once it has been defined.

PS; I have promised to beheave but you two are tempting me. Please don't

. Else I can always edit my previous post.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 16:27

Pratyush wrote:They have the gall to say that non muslim minorities will be protected in an Azad Kashmir. What bull $hit?

I can't seem to find the link but in the reading about the issue I've been doing over the past two days (too much free time

) I read that Geelani said in a "Azad" Kashmir minorities wouldn't face prohibition from drinking alcohol!

You know what, I really wish Geeli bhai a lambi umar. With fools like this who needs enemies (I mean this in the context of the Valley's Rats-in-a-Hurry)

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Oct 2010 16:36

Amit ji, looks SD does read BR..he's maroed your jist.

I for one am in complete agreement with you. This is a trap.

BTW how come folks missed this about the imagined "Azaadi" from the SD article:

Geelani stressed he wasn’t against India but wanted a “free” Kashmir where — and he was at pains to spell this out — Islamic strictures against consuming alcohol would not apply to the minorities.

So if you're a Muslim you don't have the choice to drink..So how come SuAR does'nt fight for freedom of choice of the individual Muslim? What "Azaadi" is that where the State dictates what you can or cannot drink.

Importantly the "Azaadi" that Geelani and Company are crying for and SuAR is fighting for is not a pluralist, liberal democracy but an Islamofascist society in Kashmir where the minority will pay Jizya and live in dhimmitude.

SuAR does not represent the forces of Freedom, liberal, pluralist democracy where the right of the individual is supreme as guaranteed by the Indian constitution, but that of the Islamofascist.

I am beginning to wonder if a high profile case against SuAR can be filed on those very grounds rather than sedition (which will make the Indian state look bad and like the Chinese). But that she is supporting the negation of Individual rights of large sections of Indian society by being a representative of Islamofascist and Naxalite factions whether in Kashmir or in Central India.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 16:38

Amit, I read it was written in a pradeep Magzine article published in Hindustan Times today.

Half stories, half truths about Kashmir

Not worth posting in full. But the excerpt is where it becomes clear what was said.

Geelani, the ‘incorrigible hawk’, appealed to India to talk to Kashmiris in the language of insaniyat. Responding to Roy’s query, he said an independent Kashmir will grant equal rights to all. He reiterated his demand for a referendum in the undivided J&K, promising to abide by the verdict, even if it went in India’s favour. He expressed hope of India becoming a superpower, outstripping even the US and China.

The author is ultra WKK and blatently anti India. I guess to grow in Indian english language media you have to be this way.

Raja Ram · Post by **Raja Ram** » 28 Oct 2010 16:40

FWIW, the lady has already called out for and justified an armed uprising in an earlier occassion depicting the Maoists as fighting a war against a state that practices terrorism! Nothing happened to her then. The GOI of course is more bothered about other things - GDP growth and all!!

The speech, the event organizers and the support that she gets now are all good. It brings to the fore the entire cabal that is working against India and that needs to be done. As Amit, says, the empire should strike back, but at the time, place and manner of its choice.

I would say, the opposition should play its part here, the BJP should continue to make this an issue, and the cabal must be emboldened to raise the bar and make the cabal come out even more openly and start talking for all their causes, the "liberal and secular" masks of this cabal should drop. This lady does seem to suffer from some sort of narcisstic need to become a controversy queen. Let us oblige her. She should be provoked to become even more shrill.

It will do two things. One, the vast majority of "secularized" Indians will start realizing the game plan of these "intellectuals" and start to identify around national issues and forces that are seen to be more nationalistic. Second, the ruling national party, Congress, will be forced to take more realistic and nationalistic stands - their desire for power and to be in the right side of public opinion should be inducement enough, being past masters in vote bank politics.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 16:41

Harbans ji,

Aha that's where I read that gem (see my post above yours)!

Regarding Su AR I would think it would be great if PILs are lodged by ordinary citizens. Being the megalomaniac she is, she is bound to make a wrong move. I just hope this present GoI has it in them to move for the kill with legal cases to take advantage of that.

Even though I've advocated that no action should be taken against her in this instance, I also feel at some point of time GoI needs to make an example of her.

amit · Post by **amit** » 28 Oct 2010 16:48

Raja Ram wrote:It will do two things. One, the vast majority of "secularized" Indians will start realizing the game plan of these "intellectuals" and start to identify around national issues and forces that are seen to be more nationalistic. Second, the ruling national party, Congress, will be forced to take more realistic and nationalistic stands - their desire for power and to be in the right side of public opinion should be inducement enough, being past masters in vote bank politics.

Raja Ram ji,

If you go by the comments posted on the various Internet websites carrying news about this lady you'll notice that it seems that people have understood what she stands for. One good thing about India is that the appeal or exposure of people of her ilk is limited to the small crust upper class English speaking intelligentsia. In India's hinterland nobody gives a damn.

However, it is this same small class of people who visit Internet sites and so I would tend to think (I know this is not scientific) that her potential target audience are the ones leaving these nasty comments about her and her apologists in the media.

And also I firmly believe she will get desperate the more she is ignored. Hopefully then she will commit hara kiri.

But to be very frank I don't have much faith that this GoI has the gumption to take action when she presents an opportunity. I just hope I'm wrong.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Oct 2010 16:55

Raja Ram wrote:FWIW, the lady has already called out for and justified an armed uprising in an earlier occassion depicting the Maoists as fighting a war against a state that practices terrorism! Nothing happened to her then. The GOI of course is more bothered about other things - GDP growth and all!!

Raja Ram ji, as people like you go about talking about truth, some things become amply clear, most of that between people who are sleeping and those pretending to be asleep.

We know the difference by noticing which ones wake up when a bum goes up near their ears.

And if Swapan Dasgupta does read BRF, I hope he would have good sense to see what SSridhar is saying and not fall in the sweet lullaby some are so adept at.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Oct 2010 17:15

Sanku ji, the case itself under Section 124 A may not hold much water. It will make the Indian state look bad and her a heroine doing much more damage in the process. From Wiki:

The Preamble of the Indian Constitution ensures to all its citizens the liberty of expression. Freedom of the press has been included as part of freedom of speech and expression under the Article 19 of the UDHR. The heart of the Article 19 says: “Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression, this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.”

So as Raja Ram mentioned she was not arrested even when she exhorted armed rebellion, it's highly unlikely she will be for her statements on Kashmir where cops will be hard pressed to spot where she has directly exhorted violence.

On another note i would like to ask the SuAR, Geelani and Co if they would give rights of self determination to those in Ladhak and Jammu. They don't want to be part of an Islamic society for sure. And so do many many moderate KV Muslims.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Oct 2010 17:18

harbans,

They need to be asked about the POK and the COK before we even get to Jammu and Ladhak.

But indulging them with this dialogue will only serve to enhance the credibility of thes pests.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 28 Oct 2010 17:27

harbans wrote: So as Raja Ram mentioned she was not arrested even when she exhorted armed rebellion, it's highly unlikely she will be for her statements on Kashmir where cops will be hard pressed to spot where she has directly exhorted violence.

Harbans ji, as you know, I am not a big votary of doing nothing, I am extremely worried about the current going on, and I refuse to take the line that SuAR is merely a irritant (she is that) in this case esp.

I think she is used as a agent to test waters, if GoI lets the current mode go on, to me it means that we are rapidly loosing the will to hold Kashmir.

I am never believe in the school of "its only words", words are always precursor to the action, the build up. After all JLNs words were only that words, on radio when he shafted ourselves on Kashmir.

MMS words in havana were also only words till it led to a massive outbreak of terror attacks in India, and as for SeS....

No Sir, if people can go about shouting for dissolution of Indian state in New Delhi as they please without any check, and those who speak for India not having a place to have their say, how long do you think the common Indian will to hold Kashmir stay?

After how many Padgaonkar's, SuARs, and Omar's statements on this and that will some one say -- "happens let it be"

After all how does the "Chalta hai" attitude gets built up, by doing Chalta hai while water rises fast.

This woman needs punishment along with here cabal, quickly and let GoI invoke which ever act they wish to, I am not interested in the legalistic aspect frankly, I KNOW that such things can be worked around.

When is enough, enough?