Newbie Corner & Military Miscellaneous

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 27 Oct 2010 23:51

^^
Even during combat the magazines are not thrown after use.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 28 Oct 2010 03:27

so they put it back after emptying? was thinking that the reloading process would be fast if you drop the empty mag and swing in the full mag to reload the gun...but putting the empty mag back in pocket and then swinging in full mag--->doesn't it take time?...every second counts rite in a combat? especially CQB?

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 28 Oct 2010 04:09

^^
To tell you the truth, I have no idea about the specific situations (like CQB) that you are talking about. May be during special situations the soldiers drop the mag and the CO reports the equipment as lost or destroyed afterwards (this is just a guess). But the general practice is to keep the magazines. But yours is a good question. Maybe some knowledgeable members can shed some light on this matter.

PS: Just a random fact which may perhaps interest you. During firing practice, even the ejected bullet casings have to be kept. This is no lightly performed practice. If all the empty casings are not accounted for, it causes major concern to the CO.

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 28 Oct 2010 12:24

Neela wrote:
vina wrote: No. You can make the test platform simulate the behavior of the target platform. The damping and other parameters in yaw, roll, pitch, etc will be what the LCA platform will be expected to do (got from modeling I suppose) and you can vary the stability of each parameter individually. It can answer questions like.. you expect the damping response in roll to be X, but what happens if it were Y instead, how will the LCA behave. Well, the test bed will give out a Y repsonse if you want it to.

The codes that will fly the aircraft when it is simulating the target platform will be the target platform FBW , with the test bed FBW running as a "safety backup". Yes, it will mimic the target platform.

This is sort of the AJTs of today, which can mimic the behavior of multiple platforms. Something which Airbus does across it's fleet and tries to maintain the same handling and other characteristics across platform so that in theory an A318 pilot can easily fly a A380 with minimal retraining.
Vina, with the examples that you gave you had also written, "how will the LCA behave". I assume what you meant by that is these data will be fed back into the simulator where various speeds ,AoA, altitudes are set and then see how the aircraft behaves?

I have had this understanding about the test points. Please correct me if I am wrong.
It is virtually impossible in one's lifetime to test all possible altitudes , AoA, airspeed , thrust, load factor etc (the flight envelope) even with a simulator. So they might first set the corner conditions- max and minimum values for each. Each of these are then split into sensible levels. For altitude for example, you need not test for 1000m and 1100m but you might select 1000m and 3000m as test points because at 3000m the change in air density and oxygen levels is more significant. Am I correct in these assumptions? Something similar happens in the semiconductor industry but the test points ( called corner conditions ) are usually <100 with all parameters included.
BUt with aircraft, I see so many parameters and so many things to test ...truly mind-boggling.

Anyone?

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 28 Oct 2010 12:29

^^

Every soilder can only carry a specific numbers (x) of magazines, once his magz's are empty he has to refill them or they are refilled by another in the squad. (depending on situation to situation) , there is no endless supply of magz's and ammo.

- in CQB (NSG) type ops, also magz's are not thrown away, one carries enough spare magz's as per the situation. If the situation prolongs spare magz's are collected back and refilled and re-issued.

- Venkarl - Typically in CQB ops there is a jugad done where one tapes two magz's together. Once the mag is empty simply take out the empty one reverse it and put it back. (other filled magz is taped in reverse)

- In infantry combat, every solider takes time to refill once he comes down to last magz. In combat one does not keep on firing indiscriminately. One gets time to refill. (if one does not collect his magz's what will one do after last mag is empty ?)

- In peace time empty cases/ ejected bullet casings are kept and deposited back. Reason being accountability for ammo. Other wise one can easily pilfer the ammo.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 28 Oct 2010 18:41

Venkarl wrote:so they put it back after emptying? was thinking that the reloading process would be fast if you drop the empty mag and swing in the full mag to reload the gun...but putting the empty mag back in pocket and then swinging in full mag--->doesn't it take time?...every second counts rite in a combat? especially CQB?

Also even if you do accidentally drop your mag clips during ops, they are picked up during the clean up once the immediate threat is neutralized.. Got it from a paanwalla...

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 28 Oct 2010 19:27

woww...thats an overwhelming knowledge for me....thanks to all

taping the mags in reverse.......sooopar idea sirji

(atleast to me)...a clean up of CQB location can be done if its within the nation(Taj attack) .....but 10 or 20 member special ops team deployed across the border on a classified mission where CQB is a high possibility....then a clean up cannot be done rite? and can the deployed team afford to take risk of putting or refilling empty mags while they are in constant action? is it like while one is watching the corners..his buddy partner refills the mags?(like barewal said)

I confess that my knowledge here is probably below zero level..excuse the ignorance.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 28 Oct 2010 19:39

in the case you have mentined sir, the team cannot afford to leave the bullet casings, hell, any sign of such an action taking place..
when the team eliminates threat, few team members spread out to form a rudimentary perimeter while the rest of the team cleans up the site by disposing the bodies, collecting the shells, magazines, grenade parts that are left behind, etc.. that's what i believe would be the MO of a team behind enemy lines because these can be used to identify the forces operating in the region..

And when the team rests after some movement, except for the lookoouts, the rest of the team takes time to clean and maintain their weapons and reload the empty mag clips, apart from other tasks... and depending upon the duration of the rest, the lookouts are also rotated giving them the time to carry out these tasks..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Oct 2010 07:35

One important reason for collecting shell casings is that they are generally made of brass, which is an expensive alloy of copper and zinc. Copper costs over 8000 US Dollars per tonne, which translates to about Rs 400 per kg, and India is not a huge producer of copper - which is a strategic metal. (India has significant reserves of copper. But does not produce much)

Every Indian family will have old brass vessels that can be soled for good money to buy steel vessels in exchange. So brass is something that people tend to steal. You can have brass name-plates and taps stolen. Ammunition casigs are no different.

Balochistan has huge copper reserves.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 29 Oct 2010 09:18

neerajb wrote:
shiv wrote:Even if every forum member gives you approval or permission, that will still not make you legally or morally correct.
.
.
Note that Jagan has reviewed "Hunter at Dawn" on BR and that has references to some ownership IIRC. You really must ask the makers of the video for permission.
Thanks for the suggestion Shiv. The content of the documentary is so good that I really wish that it comes to limelight and not rust in anonymity at IAF museum souvenir shop. Any pointers how to contact the maker of the documentary Rohan Cowasjee?

Cheers....

I am not for infringing a film maker's copyright in anyway.

That said, I found this link by accident today
http://www.youtube.com/user/bawaagain - this is Air Marshal Bawa's channel with dozens of film clips from his collection. and the Hunter at Dawn film is also uploaded. There are some cool interview snippets from other tapes there..

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Oct 2010 10:38

Every soilder can only carry a specific numbers (x) of magazines, once his magz's are empty he has to refill them or they are refilled by another in the squad. (depending on situation to situation) , there is no endless supply of magz's and ammo.

I think the situation is a little different with the Insas magazines. They are made of plastics and fiber and are of relatively low weight.

This enables the soldier to carry significantly more magazines. If the need arises the soldier can also refill them.

Am I right?

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 29 Oct 2010 10:45

Isn't filling up magazines a long task? That too in the heat of a battle? Though, I don't see any alternative. You can only carry a limited number of mags. Can someone tell me the number of mags issued normally, when going out on a patrol. I know, it depends from situation to situation, but still. A rough figure would do.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 29 Oct 2010 12:38

I believe the number would be 5, including the magazine clipped on the gun.. This is a guestimate..

d_berwal · Post by **d_berwal** » 29 Oct 2010 17:48

koti wrote: I think the situation is a little different with the Insas magazines. They are made of plastics and fiber and are of relatively low weight.

This enables the soldier to carry significantly more magazines. If the need arises the soldier can also refill them.

Am I right?

introduction of magz's made of fiber and plastic has had no change in the SOP regarding the number of magz's allotted per soldier in a squad.

Insas 5.56
weight of magz loded (20rounds) = 350g

Ak 47 (7.62)
weight of magz loded (30 round) = 576 grms

Rifle 7.62 MM 1A1 (SLR)
weight of magz loded (20rounds) = 708g

Tavor 5.56
weight of magz loded (30rounds) = 480g (approx)

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 29 Oct 2010 18:51

d_berwal saab, is there any move by the IA to shift to 30 round mags on the INSAS? If the mags and ammo are both lighter than those of the AK and SLR, why did the IA go in for 20 round mags in the first place?

koti · Post by **koti** » 29 Oct 2010 21:07

^^ In an assault, most of the shots will be fired in the prone position. A 20 round magazine gives better comfort for the soldier. Also the Mag can be used as a uni-pod for better accuracy.

Most important of all, the soldier will have less exposed area comparatively.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 30 Oct 2010 06:43

How can an assault take place with soldiers lying prone? I always thought an "assault" means getting up and moving forward.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Oct 2010 12:12

X posting from Su-30 thread.

Lalmohan wrote:with proper use of awacs and su30 radar, the kill probability against even the latest model f16's will be very high in BVR and then even without awacs guided WVR engagement and the numerical superiority, it would be very foolish of PAF to try and contest the skies in any conventional sense... we should expect some unconventional tactics... probably worth trying to guess what they might be?

Desperate forces are known to employ suicidal tactics against numerically/technologically superior forces, Case in point Soviet Turran and Japanese Kamikaze. What could IAF expect from a loosing and desperate PAF? A Fidayeen attack, say a PAF obsolete A-5 loaded with a single gravity nuke on a one way mission to nuke an air force base. Pretty lucrative proposition from PAF POV since they always believe in one master stroke (with a cheaper cost) wiping out an enemy with shock and awe.

Cheers....

koti · Post by **koti** » 30 Oct 2010 12:38

shiv wrote:How can an assault take place with soldiers lying prone? I always thought an "assault" means getting up and moving forward.

True Sir.
But back then assaults mostly ended with a bayonet charge.

I was referring to the shooting part of any contemporary infantry assault, the charge or movement is another aspect of it.
The assault that is in waves will need to provide covering fire. And I believe this or any other significant firing would essentially be in the Prone position itself.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 30 Oct 2010 16:06

The fire team would be concealed behind all available cover. Meaning they could be firing from any position, not necessarily in a prone position.
IIRC the 20 round mag was chosen because of the absence of automatic mode in the INSAS. Don't recall where i read that though.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 08:27

Bala Vignesh wrote: IIRC the 20 round mag was chosen because of the absence of automatic mode in the INSAS. Don't recall where i read that though.

I think there is a 3 shot burst mode which can be selected over fully automatic. Not firing off everything in one burst comes from training.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 31 Oct 2010 15:47

Shiv Sir,
Some guns don't have them.. I had a pocket book on the various guns that were and are still available, it was mentioned there.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 16:26

Bala Vignesh wrote: Some guns don't have them.. I had a pocket book on the various guns that were and are still available, it was mentioned there.

In fact I asked my uncle Shri Google about this and you are definitely right - with an area of doubt. I recall being told at some Aero India about full auto mode. Most refs speak of singe shot or 3 shot burst. But some refs (from my uncle Google) speak of an INSAS assault rifle with single, 3 shot and full auto.

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Oct 2010 17:00

^^ Insas AR has only 3 round burst and selective fire. Once the 3 rounds are fired, the bolt locks itself.
However, Insas LMG has full auto mode. Insas Excalibur and Kalantak also reportedly had full auto modes.

Marut · Post by **Marut** » 31 Oct 2010 19:41

The standard INSAS rifle has only single shot and 3rd burst. IA follows Ek Goli Ek Dushman (One bullet, One Enemy), so they didn't see any reason for full auto mode. The assault rifle/carbine version will have full auto due to the expected use in CQB and COIN ops, where something like wall of lead is useful, not in regular warfare.
The LMG version will naturally have a full auto!

INSAS has 30rd magazines, but the soldiers fill up only 20 in it. This is to keep the magazine spring mechanism working for longer. RayC had mentioned this many moons ago. Taping mags in reverse is pretty common. Newer mags in contemporary rifles(SIG, G36, etc) have connector slots so you can connect them upto 3 side by side. (more for marketing purposes as most operational pics show only 2).

IA takes accounting of ammo very seriously. Most videos of IA firing practice will show a brass collector attached by the weapon side or someone holding a bag near the ejector to collect the casings. Same goes for magazines and even spent casings from actual operations, which are collected and logged.

The quantum of ammo carried per person is decided by nature of operations. Normally soldiers get issued two extra mags. COIN ops get upto 4 extra mags. Normally the designated marksman carries a few more mags (for others) for emergencies above his quota of ammo since their quota is on the lower side anyways.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 31 Oct 2010 23:40

The quantum of ammo carried per person is decided by nature of operations. Normally soldiers get issued two extra mags. COIN ops get upto 4 extra mags. Normally the designated marksman carries a few more mags (for others) for emergencies above his quota of ammo since their quota is on the lower side anyways

This is a very low figure.I was of the opinion that soldiers used to carry anywhere from 200-300 rounds for operations.According to your information for a standard op the soldiers are carrying only 60 rounds with them.If this is true then our soldiers definitely need extra firepower.

Can you also get the no. of rounds available to the LMG gunner and the no. of grenades available to the soldiers in operations?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 31 Oct 2010 23:52

Marut wrote:
INSAS has 30rd magazines, but the soldiers fill up only 20 in it. This is to keep the magazine spring mechanism working for longer. RayC had mentioned this many moons ago.

You can distinguish between the INSAS 30rd and 20rd mags by their lengths. The 30rd mag is visibly longer. Nearly all pics I have seen of soldiers with INSAS rifles have 20rd mags. Only those carrying the INSAS LMG seem to have 30rd mags issued to them.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 01 Nov 2010 06:25

darshhan wrote:
The quantum of ammo carried per person is decided by nature of operations. Normally soldiers get issued two extra mags. COIN ops get upto 4 extra mags. Normally the designated marksman carries a few more mags (for others) for emergencies above his quota of ammo since their quota is on the lower side anyways
This is a very low figure.I was of the opinion that soldiers used to carry anywhere from 200-300 rounds for operations.According to your information for a standard op the soldiers are carrying only 60 rounds with them.If this is true then our soldiers definitely need extra firepower.

Can you also get the no. of rounds available to the LMG gunner and the no. of grenades available to the soldiers in operations?

Darshan from what I have read I guess anyone can do with extra firepower, but the problem is weight. Any assault is successful in a manner that allows contact with the rear will allow the soldiers to be replenished - even if they are pinned down in no man's land. That is why a thousand and one lost battles have the same story - that of soldiers being cut off from resupply from the rear and overwhelmed as they run out of ammunition and or water and food.

If the men are cut off from the rear - even 5000 rounds will only delay, but not avoid the defeat. A man who has 5000 rounds to fire will have to last so long that he will need food and water as well. That too needs to come from the rear. This is the reason why I started that logistics thread. The fact that a rear column carrying adequate supplies and continuous or intermittent successful resupply is the key in any battle is often forgotten.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 01 Nov 2010 10:53

darshhan wrote: This is a very low figure.I was of the opinion that soldiers used to carry anywhere from 200-300 rounds for operations.According to your information for a standard op the soldiers are carrying only 60 rounds with them.If this is true then our soldiers definitely need extra firepower.

Can you also get the no. of rounds available to the LMG gunner and the no. of grenades available to the soldiers in operations?

In Urban Assault, in our terrain, the soldiers don't need to carry as much ammo since they can be easily replenished. And hence the small amount of ammo that they carry.
During regular warfare a soldier carries on him at least 5 mag's ( as per my paanwalla) bringing and a few extra rounds.
Apart from this, they have ammo stashed in the unit CP or OP for use..

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 02 Nov 2010 10:30

There has been an ongoing discussion whether MI-17 can carry artillery guns via a sling. I have some noob questions; what is the maximum weight our ALH can carry through a sling, is ALH designed to carry weights through sling and was it tested carrying weights sling. TIA

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Nov 2010 11:07

Yes...Dhruv is designed to carry weights through sling.....

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 02 Nov 2010 22:06

Naiive Newbie Queston:

Just wondering why we need the BAE Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer - Can the Su30MKI not do the job given that the WSO also has all the pilot controls. I am assuming that pilots training on the Hawk would have already been trained on the basic and Intermediate Jet trainers - could they go from IJT to MKI just to train like in an AJT?
Also, if it comes to that, can the Hawk be used in ground attack role to lob a few bombs? It certainly cannot be used for air-superiority.

Added later: Just realized I am no longer a "BRFite-Trainee", but a BRFite now. Need to learn a lot more before I can deserve that and need to stop asking stupid questions

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 02 Nov 2010 22:16

May be it would prove too difficult for the trainees after the experience with IJTs. Note that fighter a/cs are very complicated machines even for a seasoned pilot and so any AF will not prefer to use them as trainers. IAF had to use Mig-21 as trainers only after they had been left with no other choice. Even if difficulty for the trainee is not an issue, the cost of operation would certainly deter IAF from using MKIs as an AJT.

Added Later: Why are you so apologetic for your questions? I do not find your questions any more naive than the ones most of us ask here. It is much better to ask questions than be all knowing experts with PHD in technology management.

atreya · Post by **atreya** » 02 Nov 2010 22:45

Mayuresh, using a Mig 21 instead of an AJT was a HUGE leap for the pilots, leading to such high attrition. So you can leave alone Su-30s. They are way too advanced and fast for any IJT pilot to cope with. Sample this- the top speed of HAL Kiran is 695 km/h, while that of Su 30 is 2120 km/h. More than double. It is like a guy learning to drive a Maruti, being given a Formula 1 car the next day. And this analogy is way too stupid, because flying is a 1000 times more complex and difficult than driving.

Regarding post count, you can chill. With a post count of 300+, I should be some kind of an expert in atleast one area and I am nowhere close to it. There are some excellent, informative posts from trainees too. So, don't focus on the "tags" too much!

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 03 Nov 2010 19:55

Mayuresh wrote:
Just wondering why we need the BAE Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer - Can the Su30MKI not do the job given that the WSO also has all the pilot controls. I am assuming that pilots training on the Hawk would have already been trained on the basic and Intermediate Jet trainers - could they go from IJT to MKI just to train like in an AJT?
Also, if it comes to that, can the Hawk be used in ground attack role to lob a few bombs? It certainly cannot be used for air-superiority.

Mayuresh we armchair marshals must not underestimate the training and skills required for flying a high performance fighter like the Su 30, leave alone the MiG 21. An advanced trainer is required for pilots to graduate from a relatively docile IJT to a high performance thoroughbred.

Below is a quote from an article by my late cousin Wg Cdr Suresh

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/MONITOR/I ... uresh.html

IAF is using the MiG-21 in the AJT role, which is neither optimal for training nor cost effective. (See appendix 1 about Flying Training)

MiG-21, although a high demand aircraft, is docile and has no aerodynamic vices. It has excellent handling characteristics and has served to provide very valuable flying experience to a large number of IAF pilots. Some like the previous and the present CAS swear by the aircraft. It is the docility of the aircraft that not only generates a good bit of confidence but also encourages forays into exceeding the limits of the stipulated flight envelope. In air combat maneuvers, many inexperienced pilots have got into trouble without realizing it. At high angles of attack, the induced drag increases sharply and unless the angle of attack is quickly reduced, the aircraft develops a high rate of descent, which cannot be arrested with the power available (even with reheat). Added to this, there is no protest from the aircraft like severe shudder, wing rocking. etc, prevalent in other types of aircraft. This gives a feeling of well-being and a number of pilots did not recognize the danger in time to take recovery action or eject.

The training of pilots is under constant review with procedures being updated regularly and creating the required level of awareness. IAF has very strict norms during each stage of training and only those who have the capability are posted to fly fighters. Even with the finest of filters there is always someone who would get through various stages without showing any weakness. Some of these individuals get in to trouble, fail to recover from difficult situations and sometimes they compound a simple emergency.

S_Prasad · Post by **S_Prasad** » 04 Nov 2010 07:23

I have a simple question.
How many grenades does a typical soldier given for an operation? or do all of them carry grenades??

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 04 Nov 2010 23:25

During AI-09, I had read kprasad's worrying post giving details from GTRE seminar held at AI-09. He had written the following:

b. Single Crystal blades - he categorically said - We do not have that tech at all.
c. Thermal Barrier Coatings - TBC - very critical for high temp engine operation. A talk on this by an American Indian prof attracted a house full audience. He mentioned that this is highly critical and export controlled, so they dont have it.

I was again reminded of this when I saw suryag's post in the new kaveri thread.

If this is the case, then how come we were already conducting tests for years? And how come our test is successful now? Doesn't the K9 use SCB at all? I do not know if modern turbofan blades can be polycrystalline? Will they be able to handle such high temperatures(that too without TBC), pressure and general wear and tear?

Mayuresh · Post by **Mayuresh** » 04 Nov 2010 23:41

Thanks guys. Also, the second part - if push comes to shove, can the AJT lob a few bombs / be used for ground attack?

Also, just read this news item: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 871962.cms

Just wondering if the reporter did a mistake or is the US actually bringing bombers to India instead of fighters. It says "Two USAF Jumbos and 4 helos with surveillance and <b> bombing </b> capablitieshave landed at CSIA" ... Send some F-22 Raptors instead of Jumbo bombers, you fools. if Obama's aircraft is under threat, you won't go bomb Mumbai now, would you?

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 04 Nov 2010 23:55

What is the exact difference between a 155mm 39 caliber shell and a 155mm 52 caliber shell? I know that a 155mm shell will be larger than say a 130mm one and to put in very simple terms cause a bigger explosion. Since it carries more propellant, the range would also be greater. But what is the effect of the caliber?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 05 Nov 2010 10:13

In artillery, the caliber also signifies the length of the barrel relative to the bore of the barrel. So a 155/52 caliber gun will have a barrel length of 52*155mm= 8060mm.