Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 31 Oct 2010 04:02

Long time no khabar from Pakistan. Nasty wily Hindus, you drove him off.

Ali · Post by **Ali** » 31 Oct 2010 04:34

I won’t be able to reply to everyone due to time constraints but there are a few things I would like to add:

- Some people were questioning what I meant by transferring my ethos and value to the next generation. If you read my last post again, I used the word ‘My’ ethos and value, not Islamic/Arabic/Indian values. I don’t have any shame in taking good parts from different ideology I am exposed to and filtering out the parts I don’t agree with. In other words I am not a delusional brain dead Muslim who takes theology extremely literally and cannot make his own decision. This may not make me a perfect Muslim in the eyes of some but I can live with that. I would like to add that I am not the only Pakistani/Muslim who thinks like that. Pakistan maybe a basket case but there are a lot of Pakistanis who are very successful both inside Pakistan and abroad primarily because they do not believe in literal interpretation of Islam. I get the impression on BR that vast majority of people here believe that every single Pakistani is mindless drone. This is simply not true.

- The point I was trying to make about transferring of Hindu ethos and value was that while Hinduism is very rich in traditions and Ideas, It seems to me that Hindus are more susceptible to conversion either by force or manipulation. I agree that Hindu ethos have survived for centuries, but it seems like Hinduism is constantly under theological invasion even in relatively peaceful time and is shrinking. Again this is just my opinion without any scientific research so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

- Lastly, I meant ‘Cut Throat’ enemy in my last post. Perhaps people who were beating me over that typo are perfection personified and never make any mistakes.

Regards
Ali

Pulikeshi · Post by **Pulikeshi** » 31 Oct 2010 04:58

Ali,

Welcome to the forum, if nothing, realize I've never seen anyone welcome here without some hazing

Ali wrote: In other words I am not a delusional brain dead Muslim who takes theology extremely literally and cannot make his own decision. This may not make me a perfect Muslim in the eyes of some but I can live with that. I would like to add that I am not the only Pakistani/Muslim who thinks like that. Pakistan maybe a basket case but there are a lot of Pakistanis who are very successful both inside Pakistan and abroad primarily because they do not believe in literal interpretation of Islam

I am sure each of us have a bundle of contradictions to burden our leisure.
However, something to think about -> perfection is something that I've always had
occasion to chat with my friends from Pakistan. That you are audacious enough to
reject perfection is indeed welcome. That said...

The tradition of shunning the 'convert' seems to have continued from the civilization
into the forum. It is the misfortune of the civilization.
Geo-political interests have nothing to do with people and then indeed everything with it.
I do hope that while, there is no harm in disagreeing on ideas, there is no need to be disagreeable.

Ali wrote: I agree that Hindu ethos have survived for centuries, but it seems like Hinduism is constantly under theological invasion even in relatively peaceful time and is shrinking. Again this is just my opinion without any scientific research so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

Ironically, I tend to agree with you, but the 'Bazaar' always appears weaker than the 'Cathedral'.
Yet, the former is more well equipped to absorb and assimilate, the latter eventually
does, but expends a lot more entropy.
None of this is in some sense relevant to the thread at hand, so hope you stick around
Perhaps there is an opportunity to learn and keep an open mind.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Oct 2010 04:59

Ali wrote:. I would like to add that I am not the only Pakistani/Muslim who thinks like that. Pakistan maybe a basket case but there are a lot of Pakistanis who are very successful both inside Pakistan and abroad primarily because they do not believe in literal interpretation of Islam. I get the impression on BR that vast majority of people here believe that every single Pakistani is mindless drone. This is simply not true.

Frankly, whatever that number is should matter more to pakistan than to Indians. If those so called successful independent thinkers do not matter in pakistan itself, why should they concern India. Well, those successful people, if they are appealing to help to migrate to India or elsewhere, then it may interest India or others.
Can these successful people have any influence in making pakistan not a basket case? Most likely not, then why should that be of concern. By statistical chance, when significant numbers of people are considered some are bound to be successful and independent thinking. Why is that special?

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 31 Oct 2010 05:02

Loom workers protest power outages

Members of the proposed All Pakistan Shuttleless Looms Association (APSLA) protested at the Karachi Press Club against the half-day power shutdown under the pretext of low gas supply. The industry, which is part of the small and medium enterprise sector, cannot use generators since electricity accounts for 40 per cent of their total costs and generators would raise it by almost 2.5 times, explained Asif Siddiq, the honorary chairperson of APSLA.

“If the industries do not work for half of the day, we will be forced to lay off 50 per cent labour which will ultimately lead to closure of industries and massive unemployment,” warned Faraz Pervez, Chairman APSLA. Each loom is suffering a daily loss of Rs25,000 to Rs30,000 and this will lead to the transfer of the huge looms industry to India and Bangladesh where the environment is more business-friendly, added Pervez.

Pakistani traders oppose Afghan transit trade to India

The Sarhad Chamber of Commerce and Industry (SCCI) has decided to challenge in court the Afghanistan-Pakistan Transit Trade Agreement (APTTA) signed in Kabul on Thursday. The agreement allows Afghan trucks to carry export goods destined for India to the Pak-India border at Wagha, while in return Pakistani trucks will be allowed to go through Afghanistan to the Central Asian Republics and Iran.

President of All Pakistan Commercial Exporters Association, Atif Rashid Khawaja was of the view that the agreement was signed to facilitate India to market its products in Pakistan. “You will soon see smuggled goods of India in our markets.” He said while Pakistan may be able to use Afghan territory for exports to Central Asia, who could guarantee that Afghan trucks will not bring Indian goods on their way back to Afghanistan.

disha · Post by **disha** » 31 Oct 2010 05:10

Ali wrote:.. it seems like Hinduism is constantly under theological invasion even in relatively peaceful time and is shrinking. Again this is just my opinion without any scientific research so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

Yep, we are all becoming Hindus now - http://www.newsweek.com/2009/08/14/we-a ... s-now.html., by the turn of the century maybe the whole world will become Hindu! So yes, one does not have to be afraid of being poached, particularly when one has faith in the supreme truth

Lastly, I meant ‘Cut Throat’ enemy in my last post. Perhaps people who were beating me over that typo are perfection personified and never make any mistakes.

Maybe you are seeing everything as a zero-sum game and hence being beaten over. If *they* win, you *lose* and if you *win* they *lose*., with nary an understanding of a "win-win" situation., since that hurts your ego somewhere.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 Oct 2010 05:15

Thanks to the shoe guy all airports are shrines where you need to take off shoes.

saket · Post by **saket** » 31 Oct 2010 05:15

Ali wrote:- The point I was trying to make about transferring of Hindu ethos and value was that while Hinduism is very rich in traditions and Ideas, It seems to me that Hindus are more susceptible to conversion either by force or manipulation. I agree that Hindu ethos have survived for centuries, but it seems like Hinduism is constantly under theological invasion even in relatively peaceful time and is shrinking. Again this is just my opinion without any scientific research so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

Shouldnt you be more concerned that your grandchildren are blown up by purer jehadis. Or that they are forced into a Talibani form of islam. The way things are going it seems like Taliban banega pakistan. May Allah bless pakistan with shudh ghee ka islam.

negi · Post by **negi** » 31 Oct 2010 05:25

And for crying out loud stop using 'Pakistani/Muslim' the two are not one entity, at least not the ones who live in India.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Oct 2010 05:37

^^^^
Agree for IMs. Muslims are not Pakistanis.

Dont agree for Pakistanis. Here is the first sentence of the Objectives resolution for your reading pleasure.

Sovereignty belongs to Allah alone but He has delegated it to the State of Pakistan

Dont subvert their constitution.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 31 Oct 2010 05:41

negi wrote:And for crying out loud stop using 'Pakistani/Muslim' the two are not one entity, at least not the ones who live in India.

From Poak persepective, they are same . Onlee country completely obseessed with regious dogma that difference if any has disappeared long time ago. Now Janab aying something about Jahill values to be passed on to his kids. This insult to Islam and Sunnat of Last Prophet of Allah makes him Wazzo-e-qital in Pakistan. He better hide his identity and apply Canadian visa at the nearest consulate .
When huge amount of Sikhs were killed in BIg Ghalukarra by Isalmist Mooghalz, the few survivors gathered in a safe site and one of them got up and said, Khalsa ji, weak one perished and onlee strong ones gathered here have survived , so lets go finish the mission". Same way Mr Ali , weakling did convert but strong ones are still here and they will finish the mission of putting human valurs into the heart of fallen ones or give them chance at evolutionary process than die like halal dog-matic zombies . Jus take a look at the national debate in Poakland, its all about begging Aid, Bribe, Qital, kuffar and Khatme Nabbuwat. Where does humanity fit in this land synonymous with pure Islam.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 31 Oct 2010 06:04

Ali wrote: Hinduism has a weakness because as a community they did not take care of their own lost people. It is mind boggling that a foreign ideology can divide a group of people in such a way that they become throat enemies for eternity. In my opinion it talks more about the weakness of parent ideology more than the oppressiveness of the foreign. At least as a Muslim I am reasonably assured that my ethos and values would be transferred to my grandkids and their grandkids, I am not sure you can say the same about yours.

Ali-ji Welcome. Dont mind the bashing, its typical Newbie hazing. Since I gather you are a lurker, you must have seen the heated back and forth on other issues like Nuke-deal, C17s, Elections and so forth. We just like writing heated posts -- nothing personal.

Very gratified to have you here so we can have a conversation.

So I wish to have your thoughts about my post. Whatever you have posted, has deep inherent structural flaws and an illogical and muddled line of argument. Let me elaborate:

I gather that you are a Muslim. Why are you a Muslim? This is a serious question:

(A) Is it because you believe that Islam is the ultimate truth (by "Islam" I refer to the narrative of God-Creation-Moses-Jesus-The Prophet-Quran) or
(B) Are you a Muslim because belonging to that group offers you "protection" ?

(A) If it is the former, your line of argument about whose absolute truth is in fact true, is flawed. A Christian will argue that he is 100% correct, you will argue that you are 100% correct. Debates about who treats women better or who gives more to charity is irrelevant. How can that justify or refute Jesus' or the Prophet's doctrine? Similarly, an argument for being a Muslim supported by Muslim's propensity to violence or their commitment to protect their faith says nothing about the truth of the religion per se. By that metric, (my apologies. My knowledge here is entirely gathered by watching Hollywood movies), the Metal Chaddi clad 300 Soldiers with tight abs in the movie "300" probably followed a religion that was the ultimate truth.

(B) If it is the latter, again your line of argument is flawed. Worse, you are a blasphemer -- because you subtly indicate your willingness to switch to any other religion/ideology if they demonstrate an ability to preserve their belief structure generations down the line. So your commitment to Islam is not because of your belief in its truth, but because of a few luxuries it affords. Kind of the reason why my family was committed to investing in National Savings Scheme certificate -- there was a tax benefit. When they removed the benefit, my family became a committed believer in investing in the stock market.

Stretching the analogy, the best religion is whatever that cockroaches follow. I hear that they are likely to outlast humans and are likely to survive even a nuclear war. We should all convert.

Okay now I have further questions. What do you define as the "Strength of an idealogy" ? The prescription in the idealogy to indulge in violence to preserve the said idealogy? The vehemence of the ideology in insisting that you should indulge in protecting the said idealogy through identifying the competition and eliminating it? Surely that is what you hinted at when you said

Weakness of parent ideology more than the oppressiveness of the foreign

I gather that Pakistanis are fond of quoting Samuel Huntington's "Clash of Civilizations". Let me remind you of one:

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact, non-Westerners never do.

So arent you making the same mistake? Somehow mistaking the "Strength of ideology" with the exhortation within the ideology to apply organized violence? (and branding the other religions to have "weakness"). So Budhdha preached Ahimsa -- non violence that is. So the fact that Budhdhists can be killed and a bulk of them probably wont retaliate make Budhdha's philosophical argument about realization any less valid? Surely their ideology is weak. They dont proselyte, they dont fight, they dont invade with an aim to convert, they dont establish kingdoms in its name. So Budhdhists must be the most weakest and the most false idealogy mankind has ever encountered. Well maybe the Jains will give the some competition. Both of them are a huge pack of weaseling Liars.

Lets move it further. The Hindi/Urdu spat that started this whole thing, is rooted in BRF (Psy-ops as you call it), in pointing out that Pakistanis till today are unsure about their identity. It is a running joke around these parts about how they make the fatal mistake of starting to define their identity through the sentence

We are not Indians because...

Then it gets hilarious from here. People insist they are Arabs. Some insist they belong to Middle east, some others insist they are Central Asians. Mohammed Bin Qasim is called the "First citizen of Pakistan", Urdu is declared to be a language distinct from Hindi, Pakistanis are fair and tall, Indians are short and dark....you know the drill. And after going through Middle East, Central Asia to the fair heights of Qasim and distinct language of Urdu, it comes back to finishing the sentence with

We are not Indians because...We are Muslim

So are many of us. More in number than your population. They seem to be happy being Indians.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 06:23

Anujan wrote:^^^^
Agree for IMs. Muslims are not Pakistanis.

Yes but they are not Muslims either. True and pure Islam occurs only in Pakistan. OK it was inspired in Arabia, but the cocoon that nurtured and supported Islam in the last 1000 years is Pakistan.

The behavior of some of you forumites shows the visceral hatred you have for Islam - which you would have swallowed up and suppressed if it were not for the formation of "Fortress Islam" - Pakistan. Although it has become less fashionable to say it (I can't understand why) - the fact is "Pakistan ka matlab kya? La illah illallah" or holds true today as a beacon of hope and strength for 180 million Muslims leading the world into a new future. Just like the past.

Interestingly guess where the "-stan" and "kya" of of Pakistan ka matlab kya come from? Like a child who insists that he has only his mother's genes and wants nothing to do with his father whom he does not know well, rejection of a Sanskritic half of Urdu is possible but laughable. Denial does not make things go away, but arguing with any Pakistani is phenomenally stupid. Pakistanis get a big kick about being noticed and see that as proof of their importance in the scheme of things. One Pakistani in Bolywood is seen as the importance of Pakistan. One Muslim in Bollywood is a victory for Islam that is protected by Pakistan and an acknowledgement of the need for Pakistan. It's your call people. I would drop the subject.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 06:33

Anujan wrote: So are many of us. More in number than your population. They seem to be happy being Indians.

Saar? What is the matter with you saaar? Why phor you vant to do equal equal?

Pakistan is ahead of India. Pakistani people are fairer and better looking. They have a newer and superior religion. They have better technology. their missiles are better and nukes are more advanced. You must acknowledge and recognise Pakistan. Not try to "catch up" with useless arguments.

About the population :
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Pakistan- ... 19370.aspx

The News reported Friday that Pakistan has got the highest average fertility rate for 2005-10 along with the highest household size (6. and the second highest density after India amongst the six most populous countries. India has a population of about 1.2 billion people.

Have you ever heard of any country with 15% of the population of another one holding the bigger country in check and regulating its course? Regulating the thoughts and actions and arguments of its 1.2 billion people? Heck, India with 1.2 billion people cannot check China with 1.3. But Pakistan which is 1.84 million and growing strongly holds the future of India in her hands. Your arguments show your jealousy. Your takleef. And your acknowledgement of the importance of Pakistan. As if Pakistan will be pulled down if you win your argument. The fact that you need to argue so much shows how important Pakistan is. The need for Pakistan is shown clear as crystal - as envisaged by Jinnah and Iqbal.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2010 06:52

Ali wrote:
harbans wrote:Ali ji, .
Harbans Saheb,
Thanks for your kind reply. I think you are attributing a few things to me that I never stated in my post. Also I noticed that you have failed to provide linkage between ‘Nism-e-Girami’ and a similar Hindi word. The point of my post was that Hindi and Urdu are not identical languages, this claim was made somewhere on this page. Urdu has borrowed a lot of words from a lot of languages and Hindi is one of those languages, however the languages are not identical on many levels. Someone else mentioned that Pakistanis have basterdized the language to make it more Persian/Arabic. This is simply not true as you can look at poetry from Ghalib and Meer and notice a distinct style that is not present in Hindi. For example here are a few Gems from Ghalib

arz-e-niyaaz-e-ishq ke qaabil nahii.n rahaa
jis dil pe naaz thaa mujhe vo dil nahii.n rahaa

[niyaaz = offering]

jaataa huu.N daaG-e-hasarat-e-hastii liye hue
huu.N shammaa-e-kushtaa daraKhur-e-mahafil nahii.n rahaa

[shammaa-e-kushtaa = extinguished lamp; daraKhur = worthy]

marane kii ai dil aur hii tadabiir kar ki mai.n
shaayaan-e-dast-o-baazuu-e-qaatil nahii.n rahaa

I think it would be dishonest to claim that all the words in this verse are also present in Hindi. Please note that I have no animosity toward Hindi or I am deliberately trying to portray Urdu as something else. My point is simple that Urdu and Hindi may have common words but they are clearly not identical languages

Regards
Ali

Please take the time to educate yourself in basic linguistics (it is obvious you are clueless about the subject) and you may learn what criteria are applied to determine whether two languages are identical or not. Your people's anxiety to separate your language from Hindi and your childish belief that Hindus are somehow dying to make Hindi identical to Urdu are both evidence of a hopeless education system that focuses more on teaching hatred than on science.

Don't take my harsh words badly--you deserve them for your ridiculous combination of ignorance and pomposity. But ignorance can always be removed by education, stupidity is a more permanent condition. I hope your country didn't make you terminally stupid and you will be able to make the right choice.

If it is any consolation, you and your people are not alone in your pathetic lack of understanding of linguistics. In south India there is a language called Telugu whose educated vocabulary is about 80% Sanskrit, and many Telugu people contend on that basis, Telugu is derived from Sanskrit and unrelated to another southern language Tamil. This is completely wrong and Telugu and Tamil while certainly not identical are very closely related sister languages.

Good luck.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2010 06:57

Brad Goodman wrote:Dont really understand why we are writing pages after pages of post to prove hindi == urdu stuff. The reason Hindi was sankritized from hindustani post independence has an interesting story. I read it in "My Days with Nehru" by John Mathai who was his secretery. Seems that chacha nehru was furious hearing AIR (Akashwani) news in Hindi and Mathai's argument was that it would make it more closer to South Indians by having sanskrit instead of persian turkic laced hindustani.

This is absolutely true. Many are Telugus, Malayalis and so on who have been able to comprehend Hindi, thanks to the choice to use sanskrit vocabulary in place of the less accessible Arabi-Farsi.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Oct 2010 06:58

Ali wrote: Hinduism has a weakness because as a community they did not take care of their own lost people. It is mind boggling that a foreign ideology can divide a group of people in such a way that they become throat enemies for eternity. In my opinion it talks more about the weakness of parent ideology more than the oppressiveness of the foreign. At least as a Muslim I am reasonably assured that my ethos and values would be transferred to my grandkids and their grandkids, I am not sure you can say the same about yours.

Anujan wrote: I gather that you are a Muslim. Why are you a Muslim? This is a serious question:

(A) Is it because you believe that Islam is the ultimate truth (by "Islam" I refer to the narrative of God-Creation-Moses-Jesus-The Prophet-Quran) or
(B) Are you a Muslim because belonging to that group offers you "protection" ?

I guess Ali-ji's answer is (C).

(C) Somebody raped his maternal ancestor and no one reclaimed her. Now he blames the world for what the Hindu neighbor of his maternal ancestor did not do (He wouldn't believe you even if you show him the facts about Hindu resistence and countless reversions as his lineage was left alone). Even after this many generations, his being is stuck in the past.

We must pity him instead of asking logical questions. He confessed that he is too week and cannot survive independently without that religious mob-support.

Theo_Fidel · Post by **Theo_Fidel** » 31 Oct 2010 06:59

Guys,

I think he is asking for some demonstration his 'belief system' will 'win'.
This is not a insubstantial question. Lets not go down that dharmic ambiguity.

When I think of the Kashmir Pandits and their lack of resolve, or the Hindus in Bangaldesh who were once 30%, or Indonesia which was once Hindu, this is a valid question. I have said it in the past Hindu's need a proselytizing force if only to protect other minorities. I was shouted down then. Think of it as an immune system. What is the Hindu immune system.

Minorities in the US feel safer as no one dares mess with the dominant ideology. This is about ideas not Rath Yatras.

Time to duck now. A bit OT.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2010 07:04

Ali wrote:
Jaeger wrote:Ali, I think it's a measure of how much that article hits home that you decided to decloak and respond. I think the mango Abdul's reactions in that article are also instructive - you don't see what you don't want to believe. Self-confirming bias, anyone?

Also, while you have used 'pure' Urdu in your examples, here's another simple point: both Hindi & Urdu or rather all dialects of Hindi including Urdu are classified as Indo-European languages. As is Persian, btw. Arabic is not an Indo-European language. Thus the point about sentence structure and forms. changing a few words here and there won't change the truth.
Jaeger Saheb,
I think the problem is that you have been drinking BR’s kool-aid for so long that you have automatically started believing everything you read here. BR sets a certain narrative about Pakistan, Pakistani and their culture for Pys-Op value and that is fine, I ‘get it’ , however if you start believing your own Psy-op, you are doing a self-goal in my opinion.

There is a common theme in many replies that the ONLY true reason, I or many other think Urdu != Hindi is because we are ashamed of our Indic roots and are trying to be more Arabs than Arabs. While I can’t speak for anyone else, let me tell you that I have no problem admitting that I am 100% convinced that my ancestor were Indian/Hindu, they were probably converted by force and I don’t have any Arab blood in my vein. Having said, I still don’t think two languages are the same. They have common roots, common words but they have evolved totally differently.

And while we are talking about it let me also ask a question that I always bothered me during my lurking days here. I see threads after threads ridiculing Pakistani for forgetting their true roots, the oppressiveness of Islam, conversion of Hindus by force during Islamic invasion etc. etc. however as a someone who is fully aware of its ‘root’ it makes me upset that when my ancestors were being converted by sword, the larger Hindustani community did not do anything about it. What was so different about my ancestor than yours that mine were converted and yours were spared? You cannot simple blame foreign Muslim invaders for this; Hinduism has a weakness because as a community they did not take care of their own lost people. It is mind boggling that a foreign ideology can divide a group of people in such a way that they become throat enemies for eternity. In my opinion it talks more about the weakness of parent ideology more than the oppressiveness of the foreign. At least as a Muslim I am reasonably assured that my ethos and values would be transferred to my grandkids and their grandkids, I am not sure you can say the same about yours.

The so-called narratives you are citing ignore the ongoing resistance and reconversions that took place. The Vijayanagar empire was founded by Muslims reconverted to Hinduism and remained a bulwark of Hindu culture for 250 years in medieval India.

One aspect of Islam that stood (stands) in the way of reconversion is that those who convert out of Islam are eligible for the death penalty according to Islam. That tends to make it hard to repudiate a religion to which people were forcibly converted.

As I said in the context of Urdu-Hindi, it would be good if you chose to educate yourself instead of parading your ignorance as facts.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 31 Oct 2010 07:06

Theo ji,

Aliji's question is not new. Many people believe that Hinduism is inherently week and that is why it couldn't do a Spain to Islam/Muslims. They are probably right. They also think India is a hindu country and think that Indian govt, law-and-order are hindu. They view the minority appeasement as the weakness of a Hindu state...

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Oct 2010 07:10

KLNMurthy wrote: The so-called narratives you are citing ignore the ongoing resistance and reconversions that took place. The Vijayanagar empire was founded by Muslims reconverted to Hinduism and remained a bulwark of Hindu culture for 250 years in medieval India.

Although correct (reconverted would get buried in hasty read), just to rephrase so it sounds right. Vijayanagara empire was founded by hindus who had fallen to islamic influence and who were reclaimed back to hindu fold.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 31 Oct 2010 07:23

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.as ... 010_pg5_13

Poverty ratio in Pakistan is rapidly rising due to economic slowdown; high inflation and reduction in subsidies compel 40 percent people of the country to lives around the poverty line, as per SBP estimates.

The country’s population has jumped to 184 million in 2010, 119 million in 1990, of which 73 million Pakistanis have fallen below poverty line, SBP said. The poverty level during 2010 rises by 4 percent to 40 percent, from 36.1 percent in 2009.

When will unkil and taller than mountain friends provide more money to buy arms. Pakistan asks for arms, world seems to think pakistan is asking for alms. Unkil and China supply arms but claim they are only supplying alms. Convenient arrangement or what.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 31 Oct 2010 07:59

Ali wrote: So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

If I were a Muslim, I would be worried about my grandchildren facing Sipah-e-Sahaba (or their Shi'ite opponents). Keep an eye on Iranian nuclear weapons (or Saudi Arabia's $60 billion arms deal). Look at thousands of corpses from Iraq's civil war and spend your time ruminating on the future of *your* grandchildren. Allah Hafiz.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2010 08:23

JwalaMukhi wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote: The so-called narratives you are citing ignore the ongoing resistance and reconversions that took place. The Vijayanagar empire was founded by Muslims reconverted to Hinduism and remained a bulwark of Hindu culture for 250 years in medieval India.
Although correct (reconverted would get buried in hasty read), just to rephrase so it sounds right. Vijayanagara empire was founded by hindus who had fallen to islamic influence and who were reclaimed back to hindu fold.

Not Islamic influence, but acutal, reconverted Muslims. Harihara and Bukka, the founders of Vijayanagar, were nobles of the Kakatiya empire who were captured by Allauddin Khilji and forcibly converted to Islam. They eventually returned home, underwent shuddhi ceremony from Swami Vidyaranya and with his blessings, founded an empire that was designed to be a Hindu bastion.

Sadler · Post by **Sadler** » 31 Oct 2010 08:48

mayo wrote:
Ali wrote:At least as a Muslim I am reasonably assured that my ethos and values would be transferred to my grandkids and their grandkids, I am not sure you can say the same about yours.
That is, if they don't decide to blow themselves up somewhere in between.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Oct 2010 09:03

Ali wrote:

Some people were questioning what I meant by transferring my ethos and value to the next generation. If you read my last post again, I used the word ‘My’ ethos and value, not Islamic/Arabic/Indian values. I don’t have any shame in taking good parts from different ideology I am exposed to and filtering out the parts I don’t agree with. In other words I am not a delusional brain dead Muslim who takes theology extremely literally and cannot make his own decision. This may not make me a perfect Muslim in the eyes of some but I can live with that. I would like to add that I am not the only Pakistani/Muslim who thinks like that. Pakistan maybe a basket case but there are a lot of Pakistanis who are very successful both inside Pakistan and abroad primarily because they do not believe in literal interpretation of Islam. I get the impression on BR that vast majority of people here believe that every single Pakistani is mindless drone. This is simply not true.

No generalization about 170 million people can escape from missing all the myriads of exceptions. A generalization is that the sane section of Pakistani society is an embattled minority. E.g., if we look at Facebook fans of Capital Talk, which means a literate, internet-connected Pakistani who understands English (and therefore is not captive to Pakistan's media, but who can get news from the world), the degree of paranoia and denial is striking. To a huge number of them, Taliban are "good" Muslims, and the bombings and killings that take place are the work of Zionists/Hindu/American -inspired conspirators, out to spoil the "good" name of the Taliban. Of course, bombing girls's schools, throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, public floggings and executions are all attributes of these "good" Muslims, which are conveniently ignored.

Obviously there are many Pakistanis who are not so deluded; but they are in a minority. And even more important than what we can glean from Pakistani bboards, Facebook, media, etc., , the federal and provincial governments of Pakistan and the Pakistani army behave as though there do exist "good" Taliban and other "good" militant groups, worthy of state support.

So these are the terms in which Pakistan will be talked about on BRF.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 31 Oct 2010 09:07

A_Gupta wrote:Ali wrote:
Some people were questioning what I meant by transferring my ethos and value to the next generation. If you read my last post again, I used the word ‘My’ ethos and value, not Islamic/Arabic/Indian values. I don’t have any shame in taking good parts from different ideology I am exposed to and filtering out the parts I don’t agree with. In other words I am not a delusional brain dead Muslim who takes theology extremely literally and cannot make his own decision. This may not make me a perfect Muslim in the eyes of some but I can live with that. I would like to add that I am not the only Pakistani/Muslim who thinks like that. Pakistan maybe a basket case but there are a lot of Pakistanis who are very successful both inside Pakistan and abroad primarily because they do not believe in literal interpretation of Islam. I get the impression on BR that vast majority of people here believe that every single Pakistani is mindless drone. This is simply not true.
No generalization about 170 million people can escape from missing all the myriads of exceptions. A generalization is that the sane section of Pakistani society is an embattled minority. E.g., if we look at Facebook fans of Capital Talk, which means a literate, internet-connected Pakistani who understands English (and therefore is not captive to Pakistan's media, but who can get news from the world), the degree of paranoia and denial is striking. To a huge number of them, Taliban are "good" Muslims, and the bombings and killings that take place are the work of Zionists/Hindu/American -inspired conspirators, out to spoil the "good" name of the Taliban. Of course, bombing girls's schools, throwing acid in the faces of unveiled women, public floggings and executions are all attributes of these "good" Muslims, which are conveniently ignored.

Obviously there are many Pakistanis who are not so deluded; but they are in a minority. And even more important than what we can glean from Pakistani bboards, Facebook, media, etc., , the federal and provincial governments of Pakistan and the Pakistani army behave as though there do exist "good" Taliban and other "good" militant groups, worthy of state support.

So these are the terms in which Pakistan will be talked about on BRF.

In any case, the difference between what TFTA pakis style as enlightened and what normal humanity sees as enlightened is vast. With a handful exceptions, scratch any of these bright, successful, good-english TFTAs and the pakiness will shine through.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 31 Oct 2010 09:14

Off-topic, but for Ali: http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_2_when_islam.html

Full of generalizations, no doubt, but he does mention the exception :

Except for a small, highly educated middle class, who live de facto as if Islam were a private religious confession like any other in the West...

Incidentally, there would be very little religious conflict in India and elsewhere if the above were widely true instead of being the exception.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 09:41

Ali wrote:At least as a Muslim I am reasonably assured that my ethos and values would be transferred to my grandkids and their grandkids, I am not sure you can say the same about yours.

This is a rationalization. If a mouse out in the cold had a cow crap on him - the mouse will counter people who mock him by saying "Well at least I am warm". Everyone looks at something to make him feel good about the pile of doodoo that he finds himself in and this is exactly one of those. "I am sure that long after I am dead my grandchildren will be Muslims whereas your grandchildren may not be Hindu. Therefore my faith is greater than yours". I thought this Ali dude may have more sense than average Abdul Packee but no such luck. Flippin heck why are you guys even entertaining this lightweight comedian?

Conversion is no big deal. It's converting out of Islam that is a big deal. That is what causes Muslim versus Muslim. Once you are in and you find that things are not so rosy - you still have to put up. But if you speak up _'Urrrrk" its zahiba for you. You are slaughtered but the guy who slaughters you is a pious Muslim facing Mecca so al iz wel. Naturally when you are in the doodoo you say "I am warm. You are cold. My grandkids wil be warm. Yours will be cold". This is BENIS material.

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Oct 2010 10:18

vic wrote:Re Shiv

The issue is what is the distance from Chinese borders to their economic industrial areas, me think around 3000km+. So what is better 5000km on land or 15000km on sea?

Jaeger wrote: vic: There are two items to consider -

1. 15,000km on sea could actually be better, because of 0 infrastructure costs, low per-unit transportation costs for bulk items, no issues of mountainous terrain, etc.

2. OTOH, that sea lane passes right by US (India) and through Malacca Straits, whereas the long and winding road across the mountains to the gates of Mordor runs all the way through (nominally) orc-held territory, which the eye of Saruman watcheth over.

Road travel in mountains is normally considered to be 2x of Roads in plains. So the road from Pak Port to factories in China would be equivalent 7500km long, over hostile climate and would take 10 days. Mass/bulk cargo would be impossible to move this way. A small ship can easily move say 20,000 tons of cargo which will require around 2000 trucks.

I think Pak port for chini import is a non-starter economically and another paki wet dream

vic · Post by **vic** » 31 Oct 2010 10:29

Trying to coin New BRF Motto for Obama:-

Stable Pakistan partitioned in Ten parts is definitely in Indian & US Interest.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Oct 2010 16:35

>>A small ship can easily move say 20,000 tons of cargo which will require around 2000 trucks.
>>I think Pak port for chini import is a non-starter economically and another paki wet dream

makes sense. and 20,000t cargo is a small load ... there are 100,000t container ships moving around at 20knots. for bulk ores/agri products ships beats any form of land transport hands down. for bulky manufactured goods ships beat truck anytime. infact ships pretty much beats trucks and even trains beats trucks anytime.

maybe it idea is to hook up the paki and chini railway systems and do a freight corridor?

and ofcourse a couple of chinese owned refineries on pakistan shore pumping diesel and other POL into kashgar/urumqi region via a new pipeline might be cheaper for china and provide redundancy and khujli to uncle.

the railway map shows a line exists via urumqi to kashgar....so thats the obvious target to shoot for.
http://www.chinatourmap.com/maps/images ... ay_map.gif

if railways can ply at 15,000ft over permafrost in tibet, given enough chinese money, pakistani and chinese labour and chinese tunneling expertise, I would think a railway via POK and the area ceded by pakistan to PRC and then aksai chin to hook into kashgar railway would be feasible? other alignment is from kashi to POK following the current highway.

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volume12/desai.html

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 31 Oct 2010 19:00

another paki misdiagnosis

Pakistan cricket team no more a crowd-puller: Sohail

Islamabad, Oct 31 (IANS) Former captain Aamir Sohail said the Pakistan cricket team is no more a crowd-puller in world cricket and that is the reason why top international teams are not interested in playing Pakistan.

Mr Sohail. I thought you were a sane person least based on what I saw you doing to rip off kashif abbasi but you are barking up the wrong tree. World is not interested in playing pakis because #1 they are cheats and no one wants to play with cheats. #2 is you are a terrorist heaven and other cricketers have family and they want to go back alive after the tour.

Is this the beginning of an end for Pakistan Cricket?

now this is consiracy by world cricket since they are afraid of our bious tableegi players and so yindoo and crusaders have conspired to end kirkit in bakistan

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 31 Oct 2010 19:06

Dengue virus’ rapid spread alarms people across Pakistan

is Raa breeding machhars as weapons to attack bious bakis? I thought only SDRES are cowered by small machhars and TFTA needed something bigger as worthy opponent. Perhaps we should send the cassettes of Nana patekar song n machhar to comfort them (ofcourse with disclaimer that this song was lifted from some gifted baki musician who in turn was doing a shirk by creating music)

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 31 Oct 2010 19:10

Ali, welcome to BRf.

Just remember that this is a thread about Pakistan. We discuss issues concerning Pakistan here. I mean it seriously.

amit · Post by **amit** » 31 Oct 2010 19:40

Ali wrote:The point I was trying to make about transferring of Hindu ethos and value was that while Hinduism is very rich in traditions and Ideas, It seems to me that Hindus are more susceptible to conversion either by force or manipulation. I agree that Hindu ethos have survived for centuries, but it seems like Hinduism is constantly under theological invasion even in relatively peaceful time and is shrinking. Again this is just my opinion without any scientific research so feel free to correct me if I am wrong. So if I were a Hindu, I would have been a little worried about my grandchildren getting forcefully converted to something else, especially since this has already happened to my ancestors once.

Ali,
For a lurker who likes to watch the fun as poor BRFites make a fool of themselves by highlighting the “non-existing faults” of your country, I must say you know how to press the right buttons to get full attention.

A lot of folks have given very substantive replies to the points raised by you and I suspect that you'd be a tad surprised that your reception has been quite civil considering some to the things you have written. Let me add my two naya paise about this idea of yours that somehow Hinduism and Hindus are more venerable to conversion.
Since you say you have no problem acknowledging your Hindus roots, I’m sure you’ll agree that Hinduism is one of the world’s oldest religions, far predating the Abraminic religions like Chirstianity and Islam (I’m deliberately excluding the Jewish faith as the it is not a predatory religion like its two sister religions).
Religion has been with humans from the time they came down from the trees. Now if you look back in history the other contemporary religions of note which flourished at the time when every inhabitant in the Indian subcontinent was a Hindu, was the rich Pharaohnic religion in Egypt and Zoroastrianism in Persia.
The interesting thing is Egypt, which used to be a part of the Byzantine Empire was occupied just a decade before the Persian Empire. The Muslim conquest of Egypt started in 639 and by 646 Alexandra fell, effectively ending the Pharaohnic rule which dominated Egypt for thousands of years.
The Persian story is similar as far as timescales go and so I won’t repeat dates which are easily available.
Now the point you need to note is that the conquest of Egypt and Persia started only a few years after the death of Prophet Mohammad. On the other hand the effort to conquer India started much later. The reason I’m making this point is that Muslims invaders of India were much richer and organised than the first army which went into Egypt and Persia – in fact the army which marched into Egypt was only 4,000 strong.
Yet despite that and despite the horrible massacres, rapes and atrocities that were committed by the Muslim invaders – whose victims included your ancestors as you admit – the Muslims weren’t able to not conquer the whole of India. In fact the Muslim influence extended over only a relatively small area if you look at the whole of the Indian subcontinent despite the project starting in the eighth century, which means it had almost 1,000 years of time before the British came.
The point to note here is that before the British came, the influence of the Mughals had waned and the Marathas and the Sikhs were the dominant force. You should try to find out how the Muslim dress of Salwar Kameez became fashionable. 
Hinduism may appear weak, especially to a proselytising religion where the local religious head – Imam – in your case is held as the direct representative of God.
However, that very weakness is its strength which is why Hinduism is still alive and kicking while its contemporaries like Zoroastrianism, Pharoahnic and Helenism have become footnotes in textbooks and nice ruins to visit during holidays.
You know there’s an Argumentative Indian who’s a very famous journalist: M J Akbar. He’s a harsh critic of the government and always gets into scraps with the so-called “Hindu right”.
Yet he’s been on record several times saying he thanks his ancestors for their foresight of staying back in India. Well Akbar once wrote an interesting piece about Hinduism and why Muslim fundamentalists in India are scared way back in the mid 1980s.
He wrote that Hinduism is like an Amoeba. It just gobbles up its enemies and makes them a part of itself. What he meant was simple and that is Hinduism is more a way of life, a philosophy of how to live rather than a dogmatic religion which requires an expert, like an Imam or a priest, to decide what constitutes a good Muslim or a good Christian.
You know the guy who’s sitting in a cave in the Himalayas meditating, as I write this piece, does not have any claim to be a better Hindu than me. He is sitting there meditating to find peace and God within himself. Maybe I may a later point in my life could develop a similar urge to discover myself. If I do I’d probably undertake my own journey in my own way. Or maybe I may not.
The point of all this is that it is much harder for a religion to hold on to its followers by writ, decree and fear than it is for a religion which allows you to interpret it in the way which makes you happy. So if I were you I’d be worried about the religious ethos and values which your children and their children will inherit than to be worried for the Short Dark Rice Eating Hindus on this side of the border. Don’t interpret strength as weakness. That’s been the downfall of even the most brilliant strategists throughout history.

amit · Post by **amit** » 31 Oct 2010 19:41

Sridhar,

Just saw your post. If you think my post above is OT please either move or delete.

Thanks,

Amit

Brad Goodman · Post by **Brad Goodman** » 31 Oct 2010 20:18

As countdown to ombaba's visit begins the takleef across the border also increases exponentially

Symbolism in Obama`s India visit worries Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: The government is in two minds about US President Barack Obama`s visit to India, especially over the symbolism hidden in the decision to pick Mumbai`s Taj Hotel for starting the trip as it was the focal point of the Nov 2008 terrorist strikes on the city. New Delhi has all along been blaming Islamabad for the siege, albeit in diplomatic jargon.

What Obama, during his three-day stay in India due to begin on Nov 6, says or doesn`t say on Jammu and Kashmir, Delhi`s long-standing desire for permanent membership of the UN Security Council and India-US military cooperation would not only be important for Pakistan, but also for the future of Islamabad-Washington ties.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 31 Oct 2010 20:19

Cross post:

vic wrote:Will somebody shake my memory by telling me, when and where did China invest billions of dollars in any project in Pakistan?

China will put in 1-2 billion USD if need be - but nothing like the US putting in 3 Bn USD a year for 10 or more years.

Gwadar port is an interesting study of ChiniPak on and off lovemaking

From 2005
http://www.asianresearch.org/articles/2528.html

The convergence of Sino-Pakistani strategic interests has put the port project onto a fast track to its early completion. In three years since its inauguration, the first phase of the project is already complete with three functioning berths. The Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao will be on hand to mark the completion of this phase in March this year. Although the total cost of the project is estimated at $1.16 billion USD, China pitched in $198 million and Pakistan $50 million to finance the first phase. China also has invested another $200 million into building a coastal highway that will connect the Gwadar port with Karachi. The second phase, which will cost $526 million, will feature the construction of 9 more berths and terminals and will also be financed by China.

From 2006
http://www.dawn.com/2006/07/05/top1.htm

President Gen Pervez Musharraf has said that the Karakoram Highway will be linked to the southern Gwadar port in Balochistan. He was addressing a ceremony marking the inauguration of a dry port in the border town of Sust, 200km north of Gilgit, on Tuesday.

The dry port, a Pakistan-China joint venture, was built in 2,004 at a cost of Rs90m(PakRupees) to streamline border trade between the two countries.
<snip>
We are talking of Pakistan-China inter-connectivity in terms of energy and trade, improvement in the highway, development of railway link and gas and oil pipeline linkages and even fibre optic connectivity along the highway under one project.�

The president said the highway had been hailed as the eighth wonder of the world and added: �We are capable of creating ninth and 10th wonders in the form of railway and (oil/gas) pipeline linkages between Pakistan and China.�

From 2007
http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/02/top1.htm

The Economic Coordination Committee (ECC) of the cabinet on Thursday granted 40-year tax exemptions to the proposed operators of Gwadar port, making it a virtual tax-free port to the extent of its development and operations.
<snip>
He said the list of tax exemptions was long. Some of the major tax incentives included complete exemption from corporate income tax for 20 years, duty exemption on import of material and equipment for construction and operations of Gwadar Power and Development Free Economic Zone for 40 years and duty exemption for shipping, bunker oil for Gwadar port for 40 years, he said, adding that the port operators would also be exempted from all local and provincial taxes for 20 years.

"They will make Pakistan an economic hub," said Dr Ashfaq when asked what the port operators would give in return. He agreed that it would be an �almost tax-free port�.

He said the ECC approved a five-year policy for the automobile industry allowing a gradual tariff reduction on import of cars and light commercial vehicles by up to five per cent to produce about 500,000 vehicles by 2011-12.

From 2009
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/KH14Df02.html

China calls halt to Gwadar refinery
By Syed Fazl-e-Haider

QUETTA, Pakistan - Cash-strapped Pakistan, which has had to accept more than US$11 billion from the International Monetary Fund, is threatened with the loss of a huge foreign investment
after China said it had shelved its multi-billion dollar coastal oil refinery project at Gwadar, in southwest Balochistan province.

China has formally informed the Pakistani authorities that the refinery project has been deleted from the list of financial development plans agreed with Islamabad for the financial year ending next June as there has been no progress on the project, according to a Business Recorder report.

The decision, which follows suspension in January by the United Arab Emirates state-run International Petroleum Investment Company (IPIC) of work on the $5 billion Khalifa Coastal Refinery (KCR) project at Hub, also in Balochistan, creates uncertainty about the future of the planned $12.5 billion mega oil city project in Gwadar, of which the refinery there was to be a key element.

It also casts doubt over plans for a corridor carrying energy pipelines and refinery products the length of Pakistan from Gwadar onto western China.

From 2010
http://news.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/da ... n-told-860

About 100 acres of land in the Gwadar industrial estate earmarked for Chinese investment still remains underdeveloped.Minister of State for Industries and Production Ayatullah Durrani told a delegation of the China-Kashgar government here on Monday that Chinese investments were awaited by the government.

It is believed that the reluctance of Chinese investors to come to Gwadar is because of the law and order situation, energy crisis and inadequate facilities.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 31 Oct 2010 20:29

RamaY wrote:Theo ji,

Aliji's question is not new. Many people believe that Hinduism is inherently week and that is why it couldn't do a Spain to Islam/Muslims. They are probably right. They also think India is a hindu country and think that Indian govt, law-and-order are hindu. They view the minority appeasement as the weakness of a Hindu state...

Exactly!
And this is the crux of the problem isn't it?
For the pakistanis, Pakistan == Islam and India == Hindu. To accept otherwise, to accept the fact that there are more muslims in India, who are more prosperous than those in Pakistan, and who are more comfortable with the idea of India than the poison that the wahabi/salafi virus doing the rounds in Pakistan, to accept this would be tantamount to accepting that the two nation theory is wrong.
Thus in the pakistani lore, there are a few muslims in India, but they are the ones who are oppressed by the hindus.

But it is a different matter that the powers that be in pakistan themselves don't believe in this bullshit, this is just dope for the uneducated abdul to force him to keep relying on the powers that be.

abhishek_sharma wrote:If I were a Muslim, I would be worried about my grandchildren facing Sipah-e-Sahaba (or their Shi'ite opponents). Keep an eye on Iranian nuclear weapons (or Saudi Arabia's $60 billion arms deal). Look at thousands of corpses from Iraq's civil war and spend your time ruminating on the future of *your* grandchildren. Allah Hafiz.

The name Ali sounds like he might belong to the Shia community, rather than the sunni sect.

Ali,
Take this series of replies to your posts in good spirit. These are not a rejection of you personally, but responses to what the janta-janardhan here thinks of the thoughts. We are all here to learn and expand our vistas. Hope you'll continue to share your thoughts and ideas. If you really are from Pakistan, it would be interesting to continue to have you post here and on this thread. It is so rare to get a Pakistani who is not trying to be disruptive from the word go, on the forum.

Welcome to BRF