Indian Naval Discussion

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 01 Nov 2010 16:16

Pratyush wrote:Any news (Paanwala/ Chaiwala/ Vodkawala) how much extra money is being asked by the Russians for the latest delays for the Chakra.

How much do you think a SSBN of its caliber cost if at all you find a supplier?

Please dont bash Russians for and with everything we got... the cost escalation was in one case of gorky... The statistical tools of extrapolation does not apply here....By the way, while we criticize russians for delays/cost escalation, we safely forget the same with french and other suppliers....With Americans, we have just entered a couple of agreements, i wont comment as there is long future to come and i only hope we dont see graver concerns with them forget price hike...

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 01 Nov 2010 16:50

Hey dont get excited, am just going by precident. First the Gorshy, Then the SSN. Particularly the SSn. First the fire delays it by 6 months from 08 to 09, from late 09 we are getting mid 10. We are already looking at a delay of a minimum of 12 months.

Now if one is asking the price for delay as some fault or the outher has to be rectified or some special equipment added to the boat for her to serve the fleet. It will cost money. Am just asking how much more.

Regarding the french and the yanks or the domestice yards. I have the same view. I will bash up any one who makes a promice to do something at a certain price and in certain time frame and is unable to fulfill it.

It is not directed towards the Russians alone.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 01 Nov 2010 18:49

Finally Philip's dream may come true - there maybe some second hand Harriers hitting the market -

rkhanna · Post by **rkhanna** » 01 Nov 2010 20:23

Indian Scorpenes will come with Brahmos

The Indo-Russian 'Brahmos' supersonic missiles will be installed on Indian 'Scorpenes' submarines, the 'BrahMos' JV co-director Alexander Maxichev said recently on EuroNaval show in France. 'The missile is ready for launching from subsurface platforms' - he said. Maxichev explained, that the results of the Indian competition for additional number of submarines will be known soon, and 'we (BrahMos) push for installation on these missiles on them'. Indirectly his message confirms 'Scorpene' is the winner of the tender.

http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com/2010/10/ ... penes.html

Tube Launching them would be really inefficient and having VLS will require a little bit of sub redesign..any of the Gurus want to venture a comment or hypothesis?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Nov 2010 20:27

Surya wrote:Finally Philip's dream may come true - there maybe some second hand Harriers hitting the market -

financial times reports that India and US are being actively 'looked at'. jets may be sold at rock bottom rates. the harriers have recently been upgraded and have active life till 2020's
if the money is right, it could be a good interim boost for strike aircraft - either naval or air force or both - perhaps try them out in A&N joint command?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Nov 2010 20:30

the brahmos has a diameter of 23.5" so two of the scorpene std 21" tubes would need replacement which the french can certainly do. its current 18 weapons would be around 18ft long (torpedoes/exocets), but brahmos1 is ~25ft long...the torpedo room and weapon racks I dont know if it can accomodate such a long weapon + its will need a air capsule to rise from the water.

methinks fitting it in a torpedo room is not on and VL is only way out.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Nov 2010 20:52

>> financial times reports that India and US are being actively 'looked at'. jets may be sold at rock bottom rates. the harriers have recently been upgraded and have active life till 2020's
if the money is right, it could be a good interim boost for strike aircraft - either naval or air force or both - perhaps try them out in A&N joint command?

but these are the ground attack version of the RAF, not the SHar which we operate. the GR7 and GR9 do not even have radars. it would take a lengthy refit to bring them to LUSH standard, if at all it is possible.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 01 Nov 2010 21:12

hence the need to operate them as strike aircraft without further hassle and free up the SHAR's and 29K's for air defence

it seems that the GR7's have already been operating from HMS Invincible but seem to lack decent precision strike capabilities. GR9 has a better precision strike avionics package, including the sniper pod - but its not in the same league as the Gen4 onwards aircraft, perhaps on a par with our Jaguars (but without DARIN capability?). a squadron of these at car nicobar might be sufficient for interim defensive air and surface cover and provide some backbone whilst the 29K's warm up

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 01 Nov 2010 23:35

Pratyush said
Any news (Paanwala/ Chaiwala/ Vodkawala) how much extra money is being asked by the Russians for the latest delays for the Chakra.

Sir jee how do you expect us not to get excited? You obviously have some inside info on this as you already know that extra money is being demanded. Pray do share please.

What you are trying to do is declaring something as a fact, how much money as oppossed to if any hike is involved at all. It sounds very similar to a one liner rant few pages back which simply screamed Blackmail!

Oh and please also enlighten me on the costs involved so that I can compare how cost effective and on time the yanks can be when they lease us a SSN next time!

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Nov 2010 00:01

So because the Yanks did not lease a nuke sub, the Russians can keep delaying delivery and charge extra money at the drop of a hat? Must be Lahori logic!!

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 02 Nov 2010 01:59

Vivek K:
So because the Yanks did not lease a nuke sub, the Russians can keep delaying delivery and charge extra money at the drop of a hat? Must be Lahori logic!!

The point is who says the Russians are charging extra money for Nerpa/Chakra, apart from pure speculations on this board. When you repeat a conjecture as established fact again and again it starts to be seen as one. At the end you make to do with what can actually be gotten as compared to pure hypothetical hardware that a yank nuke sub can be.

And Vivek K kindly refrain from crap talk like Lahori logic, just because you disagree with a line of thought doesnt mean you start branding folks with Paki terms like that "at the drop of a hat".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 02 Nov 2010 05:15

IN should buy those harriers at "knocked down" prices if they are latest and greatest with upgrades and updates. Perhaps get parts, ToT etc as well for maintenance and manufacture. A good base line for DRDO's future VTOL a/c. Can't beat a scrap value harrier.

maddox · Post by **maddox** » 02 Nov 2010 05:38

With all due respect why should we keep trying to save a dying horse? We're now transitioning to the Mig29K henceforth our efforts should be focused on that.

The Harrier, as venerable as it is, is going to be an added headache in terms of taking efforts and the focus off the new jets and capabilities. The infrastructure that goes along with maintaining this aircraft (Training engineers, training pilots, maintenance of machinery etc) should be allowed to be focused now on the MIG 29K not on the Harrier. Let the current inventory go through its planned lifecycle as we look to new capabilities with the Mig29K.

While this is purely conjecture, buying more harriers might lull our decision makers into thinking that we have now bought a few more years to use the INS Viraat. We need the Vikramaditya and the IAC-I asap and I'm all for not buying old technology just because we can. It's about making an informed decision for which the long term ramifications need to be taken into account

username changed to maddox.
Rahul.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Nov 2010 06:14

shanksinha, please keep your excitement low. A question has been raised because this is the second time that the Chakra delivery has been put off. When things like this happen, questions will come up whether you like it or not.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Nov 2010 11:33

The Harrer if they have any service life left in them will be a good purchase as they will be useful in revitalising the airwing of the Virat. IIRC the IN today has less then 10 airworthy Sea Harriers.

Moreover, the Virat subsequent to the latest refit can stay in the IN service for another 10 years. If it is to be utiised as a fleet AC then it will need jumpjets.

The only ones currrenty available today are the SH.

shanksinha · Post by **shanksinha** » 02 Nov 2010 11:36

Vivek K its not me who in my excitement used words like Lahori logic etc, so you are advised to follow your own advice. Also raising valid question is different from raising conspiracy theories.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Nov 2010 16:25

perhaps we can buy 20-30 harriers, get a decent airwing for Viraat, and have some left over for a IN reserve? i.e. maintain 5-10 aircraft for a reserve squadron - retain older naval pilots as reservists for longer and keep a modicum of skills retention at a time of scarcity?

ofcourse, one can also double those numbers given what is available and if the price is right

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Nov 2010 18:21

Acquiring ex-RN Harriers which are still full of life-at least a decade left in them,will be a very cost-effective method of maintaining our fleet air arm and carrrier capability in the IOR+.If we want a better aircraft,then the MIG-35s will require another platform,which is not available right now.We will have the Gorky/Vik plus IAC-1 both in service only by about 2017.Unless we then acquire the secong QE carrier, we will not have a thirt platform for duty unless the Viraat's capability is extended by having enough Harrriers in the hangars.I also advocate buying the Ark Royal as an amphibious ops vessel (also as an ASW vessel when required,see report about IN's request for air dropped ASW munitions to meet Sino-Pak challenge),where ex-RN Harriers are used foir close support of amphib ops.They have performing this very task in Iraq and Af-pak.The Viraat can then be retired and used as a traning ship later on by the decade's end,whilem the remaining platforms are operational.by 2020,hopefully we will then be operating three new carriers ,Gorky/Vik,IAC-1,QE or IAC-2,plus one old liight carrier for amphib ops. and any more new build ones by then,a very formidable fleet.

We have to be well ahead of the PLAN and operate our carriers from Vietnamese basesa,Vietnam has just said that it would welcome foreign navies at cam Ranh Bay.Come on IN,what better invitation are we waiting for?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Nov 2010 19:02

RN SHARs are useless for us - sea vixen radar and amraam would be another mix to the el2032+derby.

the GR9 could be useful but I thought Viraats main job was air defence not land strike using its paltry airwing?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Nov 2010 19:30

i don't think we want to incur further expense here, just add some additional capability
a permanent strike squadron in the andamans with a secondary training capability for both IN and IAF is quite welcome. we can cover burma coast and sumatra straits. if coupled with awacs cover, also relatively decent air intercept capability. the GR9's have additional sidewinder rails i think

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Nov 2010 19:35

Tough choice at this juncture, 5 years ago, it would have made more sense. But with the additional Ks coming in one wonders what they'll do with these birds. Nor do they share much commonality with the LUSH Shars of the IN.

CM

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Nov 2010 19:36

only makes sense if its cheap
also, we dont operate sniper pods do we? are these litening compatible?
can they be buddy lased by other birds?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 02 Nov 2010 19:59

Teg and Tarkash, 31 October

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Nov 2010 20:39

Can the UK SHARs be used by the Andaman and Nicobar Command in any way - air defence and strike against PLAN?

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 02 Nov 2010 20:52

I remember, IN/IAF already explored this Harrier option and considered it not-feasible. I don't know how the offer now is different from then.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Nov 2010 21:08

the difference is now its a fire sale

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Nov 2010 21:47

In Mar 2006 (link) there was talk that IN would go for about 10 of the Sea Harriers that RN was retiring. They intended to consolidate all types to the RAF's Gr.7s and Gr.9s.

I vaguely recollect the talks broke down after RN (or was it BAe Systems) insisted on stripping the aircraft of the Radar and other things before handing over.

Now they're retiring all Harriers. I'm not sure if the RAF Harriers are the same as Sea Harriers and whether they can embark on ACs.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2010 22:04

RAF harriers were being operated from the RN carriers so that's not a problem.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Nov 2010 22:10

Gr7 and Gr9s are though less capable machines than Sea Harriers. They don't have AA radar and can fire only fire-and-forget missiles. Though they have about 10years of life left in the airframe.

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Nov 2010 22:19

Indian air chief dismisses UK’s ‘iffy’ Harriers

Britain has hit an early obstacle in its bid to sell its fleet of Harrier jump jets after India, the most promising potential buyer, described the aircraft as “iffy” and obsolete.

Air Chief Marshall PV Naik, the head of the Indian Air Force, said on Tuesday he would be looking to acquire modern aircraft of 4th generation capabilities or better. “The Harrier doesn’t fit into that category,” the Air Chief Marshall said.

His dismissive remarks over the “iffy” Harrier came soon after Air Chief Marshal Sir Stephen Dalton, the chief of the UK air staff, acknowledged the possibility of a sale while paying a visit to India to boost military co-operation and exports.

India is one of the largest arms bazaars in the world and is seeking to modernise its aging, largely Russian-supplied airforce, to face threats from Pakistan and China.

The distinct lack of interest shown in the Harrier, which was decommissioned in the defence review primarily on grounds of cost, will be a blow to ministers who are seeking to generate some much-needed revenue from the disposal.

Air Chief Naik’s words will particularly sting because the Ministry of Defence has spent more than £500m upgrading the Harrier avionics over the last five years and the jets could potentially remain in service until the mid 2020s.

Peter Luff, defence procurement minister, told the Financial Times this week that he was hopeful of finding a buyer for the Harrier, the pride of the Falklands war, in order to spare them from an untimely demise in a scrap yard or museum.

“There are a number of possibilities....we are looking at the options quite carefully at the moment. There are overseas markets, particularly for the Harrier,” he said.

India, along with the US, is the most likely purchaser, primarily because it bought about 30 Sea Harriers, an earlier variant, in the 1980s. Some are still used to fly off its UK-made aircraft carrier the INS Viraat, which once saw battle as HMS Hermes, the Royal Navy flagship during the Falklands conflict.

Defence collaboration was a key priority for David Cameron early this year as he led a 90-strong delegation of chief executives and cabinet ministers to India seeking to boost to trade.

An alternative is for the US to buy the Harriers to supplement its existing fleet used by the Marine Corps. Versions of the Harrier are also used by Spain and Italy.

The Harrier is one of several items of military hardware axed in the defence review that Britain is seeking to sell. Ministers seeking buyers for Nimrod spy planes, a programme cancelled shortly before the aircraft were coming into service, dozens of Typhoon fighter jets and warships including frigates and aircraft carriers.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2010 22:24

JTull wrote:Gr7 and Gr9s are though less capable machines than Sea Harriers. They don't have AA radar and can fire only fire-and-forget missiles. Though they have about 10years of life left in the airframe.

that's my view as well, they need a lot of work to be brought to the LUSH level. it doesn't pay to operate a different version for just 10 aircrafts. I think spain would be a better bet for them.

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 02 Nov 2010 22:28

well the sea harriers are configured for a2a, so it would be a mistake to upgrade the gr9's to that mission
not sure if the SHAR is as capable in a2g as the gr9... that is the mission worth considering
but really, it all hinges on price... you wouldn't buy them new

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 02 Nov 2010 22:32

As per Wiki (Link) the GR9 were upgraded to carry Paveway LGBs.

BTW, I now recollect that in 2006 UK wanted to transfer SHARs only after taking out the Blue Vixen. IN was having none of it.

Added later:

Found it:

Navy not to purchase used Royal Navy Sea Harrier fighter jets

2006-10-13 The Indian Navy has declined to buy eight British Sea Harrier FA.2 fighter jets that were phased out of the Royal Navy in March 2006.

According to a report in the October issue of the defence magazine India Strategic, the eight Harriers, which were also the last to serve the Royal Navy, were on offer but without some vital components like missiles and the Blue Vixen fire control radar. The prime consideration was to use them to train pilots and to fill in the gaps caused by the loss of six Harriers in the Indian Navy due to accidents spread over more than 20 years.

Indian Navy pilots and defence ministry representatives inspected and assessed the aircraft for technical and financial evaluation but it was decided not to go in for them as the jets needed considerable expense in upgrading their avionics and arming them.

Published reports indicate that India has 22 Sea Harriers, 16 of them being the FRS.51 fighter version. They are to be gradually replaced by MiG-29K aircraft, some 40 to 50 of which are likely to be acquired from Russia.

India has already contracted to buy 16 MiG-29Ks as part of the deal with Russia to acquire the aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov, renamed INS Vikramaditya, but more such aircraft would be needed as the Indian Navy grows to its required size and capability.

As for the Royal Navy Harriers, the Indian Navy was initially enthusiastic, but then felt that "devoid of their offensive systems, they wouldn't be of much use". For training "the navy is already considering either the BAe Hawks or Boeing/BAe Goshawks", a source said.

Indian Navy pilots are now being given advanced carrier takeoff and landing training at the US Navy's Pensacola facility to prepare them for the arrival of Gorshkov and MiG-29Ks.

This had become necessary as ironically, the Russians were unable to offer matching training facilities although they sold both the aircraft carrier and the MiG-29K jets.

Harrier jets played a decisive and proven role in the Falklands crisis of 1982. The last naval variant, the FA.2, was armed with US AIM 20 AMRAAM (advanced medium range air-to-air missile) and the Ferranti ARI.50019 Blue Vixen radar that enabled it to engage four targets simultaneously.

India had decided to buy the Harriers in the mid-1970s as part of its efforts to build a blue water navy, while their actual deliveries began in 1983.

The Indian Navy's 16 Sea Harrier FRS.51 fighter versions are now under a midlife upgrade with new air-to-air missiles as well as helmet-mounted target acquisition sights.

The Indian Navy Harriers originally were equipped with the Ferranti Blue Fox radar that had poor "look-down" capability compared to the Blue Vixen of the British Navy.

The Indian Navy plans to use the Sea Harriers till around 2020.

Engines for Indian Sea Harriers were supplied by Rolls Royce while the aircraft have been maintained and upgraded - as prime contractor - by the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Nov 2010 22:35

Well everything depends on how long the IN wishes to keep INS Viraat for and in what capacity ? If Vikramaditya takes over in say within next 5 years and ADS takes to water by say 2020 then we should be able to chug along with a compliment of 4-6 Harriers on Viraat and later convert it to a ASW carrier (mix of Kamovs and Sea Kings as a compliment). May be add a 8*4 canister of Brahmos MKII as well.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Nov 2010 22:41

negi wrote:May be add a 8*4 canister of Brahmos MKII as well.

They will then rename that to Air Capable Cruiser

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2010 22:44

LM ji, we have a barely bde size amphib force that is still finding its feet. do we need a carrier borne strike aircraft that would be gone by the time we have a credible amphib force ? I don't agree that the harriers can do much mud moving on its own other than CAS in support of amphib ops.

>> They will then rename that to Air Capable Cruiser ship

we don't have to cross the bosphorus.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 02 Nov 2010 23:00

Rahul M wrote:
we don't have to cross the bosphorus.

Ah, but you need to put the chankian-hat on. Borrowing from PLA Aunty Tsun-Susie's manual, I propose we should have a "Plate of Falafels" strategy around Mediterranean. Not because it serves a purpose, but to make the term appear like a sound strategy and raise khujli in thinktanks

btw, wouldn't Viraat need pontoons to float by 2020? Unless we are going to tow it around in a floating dry dock and phyrr?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Nov 2010 23:54

>> Plate of Falafels

jai · Post by **jai** » 03 Nov 2010 00:07

Well, if the Brit Harriers are very cheap, immediately available and add another 10 years of life to Virrat and if it can also operate from Jalashva, then perhaps its a good investment for the IN as there is every likelihood of the IAC getting delayed - if Indian shipyards' record is anything to go by ....not to speak of Gorshkov in the same breath....we would be lucky to get it by 2013.

The numbers bought can be MKI'd to our specs - Lush or others depending on the type IN want.

And they do not have to fly it for the next 30 years, they should replace it after 10 years if they feel its outdated - that wouldbe the whole advantage of buying them very cheap. Does anyone know what is the offer price and how does that compare to Mig 29 K's that we recently acquired ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Nov 2010 00:10

it can't operate from jalashwa with any meaningful payload or range. hovering take-offs and landings burn too much fuel.

>> And they do not have to fly it for the next 30 years, they should replace it after 10 years if they feel its outdated - that wouldbe the whole advantage of buying them very cheap.

that would be a huge waste of money. initial price +cost of upgradation (which would take 2-3 years) would be anything but cheap.