People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

brihaspati wrote:The top-cats seem to be closely related to and descendants of previous party top-brass. Does talent then run in genes? In that case what is the use of mandarin exams?
No one said China is perfect. The imperial exam is for entry positions. Then you have to work your way up. You do realise that 95% of the Chinese government are not fat cats right? The guys and gals doing the actual planning and number crunching still works for a living.
Rahul M wrote:Tony, it is only theoretically a meritocracy. of course, as Dhiman said, meritocracy is not a form of government. what you have in china is oligarchy.
It's a meritocracy with Chinese characteristics. :mrgreen:
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

TonyMontana wrote
No one said China is perfect. The imperial exam is for entry positions. Then you have to work your way up. You do realise that 95% of the Chinese government are not fat cats right? The guys and gals doing the actual planning and number crunching still works for a living.
My comment was in the context of you claim that all in the "governing committee" were trained as "engineers". Now there is not just one "governing committee" - there are several, and same people probably sometimes fill up different committees simultaneously. We need to go into specifics then - which "governing committee" are you exactly referring to? (Party - MC - etc)
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

brihaspati wrote: My comment was in the context of you claim that all in the "governing committee" were trained as "engineers". Now there is not just one "governing committee" - there are several, and same people probably sometimes fill up different committees simultaneously. We need to go into specifics then - which "governing committee" are you exactly referring to? (Party - MC - etc)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politburo_ ... y_of_China
somewhere wrote:The Communist leaders of China are for the most part former engineers. Rana Foroohar wrote in Newsweek, “China’s faith in its ability to mold markets may derive from the fact that its leaders are mostly engineers, trained to build from a plan. Eight of nine top party officials come from engineering backgrounds, and the practicality of their profession may help explain why they didn’t buy into risky (and Western) financial innovation. These ruling engineers preside over a system that is highly process oriented and obsesses with performance metrics.”
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by naren »

TonyMontana wrote:p.s. Did you know that every member in the Chinese governing committee were trained as engineers?
I've heard this before.

IMO, its a serious disadvantage. Being an engineer doesn't automatically guarantee good governance. For example, engineers may excel technically but are not the experts in Economics or Law. Consequently, engineers might plan and build spectacular construction projects, but not take into account the grief caused to displaced people and/or not generating enough return on investments. May well explain China's obsession for the white elephants. I seriously doubt that an all-engineer team would be good for the country.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

Only the PSC? Okay...but even there not all were and are fully qualified engineers! Go by the individual names as well as those rumoured to succeed. Start with the regional party bosses.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by JwalaMukhi »

All the CCP engineering minds, in their infinite wisdom passed on the New Clear bum/ technology to pakistan. Now, other not so enquiring minds want to know, what prevents AQKhan from photocopying those ideas and presenting them to their cousins in Uiyghuristan? Surely, people in xinjiang province can use such life saving technology? If pakistanis can understand the photocopy material, Uyghurs should be able to understand that material. Well, do the CCP engineers contend that such knowledge is only understandable by chinese or pakis.
The new clear brinkship game is played by CCP, all of engineers only. The proxies Paki and N.Korea are nurtured by CCP. So why do CCP feel that only they can play the dirty game? Did that come out of some process driven, result oriented thoughts? Looks like very immature leadership with capabilities beyond their mental means. Too good/smart for their own.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

TonyMontana wrote: It's a meritocracy with Chinese characteristics. :mrgreen:
India is eco-friendly with Indian characteristics. That's why so many people crap out in the open. The "Chinese characteristics" of a meritocracy sound like a cop out where anything that deviates from real meritocracy is explained away as "That's how we Chinese do it"

Having said that I believe China will undergo gradual political reform. That would be a good thing for China and for her neighbors in the long term.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by DavidD »

naren wrote:
TonyMontana wrote:p.s. Did you know that every member in the Chinese governing committee were trained as engineers?
I've heard this before.

IMO, its a serious disadvantage. Being an engineer doesn't automatically guarantee good governance. For example, engineers may excel technically but are not the experts in Economics or Law. Consequently, engineers might plan and build spectacular construction projects, but not take into account the grief caused to displaced people and/or not generating enough return on investments. May well explain China's obsession for the white elephants. I seriously doubt that an all-engineer team would be good for the country.
I don't know how it's like in India, but in China, the best and the brightest become engineers. Now, I'm living in the U.S., I have a degree in Electrical Engineering from a good engineering school but have since decided to pursue a career in medicine. My Chinese relatives for the life of them could not understand why I did that because it's ingrained in them that if you can become an engineer, you become an engineer. Economics and law are a joke compared to engineering, so if some engineers decided that they're better at that and learned that instead, it'd be a piece of cake.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

DavidD wrote:
I don't know how it's like in India, but in China, the best and the brightest become engineers. Now, I'm living in the U.S., I have a degree in Electrical Engineering from a good engineering school but have since decided to pursue a career in medicine. My Chinese relatives for the life of them could not understand why I did that because it's ingrained in them that if you can become an engineer, you become an engineer. Economics and law are a joke compared to engineering, so if some engineers decided that they're better at that and learned that instead, it'd be a piece of cake.
India is like China. Too many people imagine that Engineering and Medicine are the only choices in life. And in India the children who are best able to cope with extra classes starting from age 13 are the ones who often end up scoring the best marks required to get into the best reputed engineering or medical colleges.

However that does not mean that the other are dumb and that there is no life outside of engineering or medicine. Tell me, how many of China's Olympic Gold medal winners were engineers or doctors? I am a doctor. I studied in one of India's top medical schools and studied abroad after that and I find too many people with this sort of background (including many of my peers) have an inflated opinion of themselves and their capability and believe that only this background (imagined "Best of the best") are required to be leaders. That is actually rubbish.

The world consists of a lot of other skills and engineering and medicine are only part of that. But there is a sociological explanation of why Indians yearn to be doctors or engineers and it has everything to do with job availability and security in later life as perceived by many. The idea that a child must be an engineer is put into him before he can think. A semi-serious movie on this theme has been made in India (Bollywood) . You should be able to get a subtitled version. Watch it if you get a chance - it's called "Three idiots"
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Pulikeshi »

Interesting isn't it most folks in America as telling their children to be engineers and doctors like the Indians and Chinese :mrgreen:
The Indian and Chinese will soon begin to tell their children it is highly overrated.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by sanjaykumar »

It is highly overrated.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

Pulikeshi wrote:Interesting isn't it most folks in America as telling their children to be engineers and doctors like the Indians and Chinese :mrgreen:
The Indian and Chinese will soon begin to tell their children it is highly overrated.
The reasons (as I see them) are interesting, but OT for this thread.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Arjun »

DavidD wrote:I don't know how it's like in India, but in China, the best and the brightest become engineers. Now, I'm living in the U.S., I have a degree in Electrical Engineering from a good engineering school but have since decided to pursue a career in medicine. My Chinese relatives for the life of them could not understand why I did that because it's ingrained in them that if you can become an engineer, you become an engineer. Economics and law are a joke compared to engineering, so if some engineers decided that they're better at that and learned that instead, it'd be a piece of cake.
It's not a capability issue but rather one of mindset...An engineer from a top-rated institution might be more than capable of enderstanding economics, but if the decision for a dam is based more on demonstrating engineering capability rather than an understanding of economics and and other human implications that's a problem. On the other hand, what I do agree is that engineers are likely to be more logical and if they are coming in with the mindset of bringing in a higher degree of logic to the understanding and application of economics and other fields of study then I do think China could land up having a distinct competitive edge.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote: engineers are likely to be more logical
You seem to have a high opinion engineers in this capability. :lol:

This is OT but logic and science are often at loggerheads as are logic and rationality. Would engineers be unscientific and irrational in order to be logical?
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Dhiman »

TonyMontana wrote: My understanding of meritocracy is different. You're talking about a meritocractic society. I'm talking about a meritocractic government. Only.
You can't have one without the other. Probably North Korea is closest to your "meritorious government only" model :-)
A country is like a corporation. It has certain goals. Economy, defense, human development..etc. There goals should be a reflection of the will of the people. The government itself, however, should be ran by able adminstrators, instead of politicians, who are more interested in job retention. By having adminstrators, your job retention is merit or results based. You do well, you get to stay in your position and reap the benifits. Ie corruption, influence. You failed the results, you get rolled.

An imperial examination type of system allows people from ever walk of life to compete for entry level government positions, with the best of a particular year placed in "fast-stream" positions.
This is exactly how the Indian, British, and US civil services try to run the country, while their bosses, the politicians try to reflect the will of the people. But I am curious, how will the "will of the people" be determined when this system is applied in China?
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Arjun »

shiv wrote:
Arjun wrote: engineers are likely to be more logical
You seem to have a high opinion engineers in this capability. :lol:
Actually what I have high regard for is the utility of logic across areas, & IMO it is not as pervasive as one would wish and assume it to be in today's world.

The marquee entrance tests to Indian engineering colleges, at least as far as I remember, used to focus on logical and mathematical reasoning ability- far more so than tests to any other field. A corrolary of that was that the top 'analytical / logical' minds were attracted to engineering and basic sciences. I am assuming the case must have been somewhat similar in China....
This is OT but logic and science are often at loggerheads as are logic and rationality. Would engineers be unscientific and irrational in order to be logical?
Can you explain? Logic is one of the foundations of science.... As regards rationalism, I presume you are referring to some of the 'rationalists' who go about wanting to eradicate God and all superstition. I am agnostic, but I can understand why God and faith are a necessary crutch for many people and in periods of crisis - so I would not be as dogmatic as some of these proclaimed 'rationalists', but I don't see the connection with logic.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

Arjun wrote:
This is OT but logic and science are often at loggerheads as are logic and rationality. Would engineers be unscientific and irrational in order to be logical?
Can you explain? Logic is one of the foundations of science.... As regards rationalism, I presume you are referring to some of the 'rationalists' who go about wanting to eradicate God and all superstition. I am agnostic, but I can understand why God and faith are a necessary crutch for many people and in periods of crisis - so I would not be as dogmatic as some of these proclaimed 'rationalists', but I don't see the connection with logic.
Example of logic minus science:

a) Feather falls more slowly than stone. Lighter objects fall more slowly than heavier objects.

b) I cannot blow out a candle if I blow with my mouth wide open but can if I pucker my lips. The flow of air seems more forceful. So a jet aircraft needs to narrow down its tailpipe to generate more thrust. The jet pipe is open for low thrust and will narrow down for after burning.

Careful observation, experimentation and not accepting logic without ruling out all other possibilities is science. Science is logical only for those who have studied science. Otherwise logic can be an impediment to science.

Rationality versus science:

Aiding or directly contributing to killing people is irrational. Therefore science must not be used to design weapons.

This is my last post on the topic on this thread. It is way OT.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by ramana »

In US, Herbert Hoover and Jimmy Carter were engineers before they became Presidents. Everyone knows what their legacy was.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by DavidD »

shiv wrote:
DavidD wrote:
I don't know how it's like in India, but in China, the best and the brightest become engineers. Now, I'm living in the U.S., I have a degree in Electrical Engineering from a good engineering school but have since decided to pursue a career in medicine. My Chinese relatives for the life of them could not understand why I did that because it's ingrained in them that if you can become an engineer, you become an engineer. Economics and law are a joke compared to engineering, so if some engineers decided that they're better at that and learned that instead, it'd be a piece of cake.
India is like China. Too many people imagine that Engineering and Medicine are the only choices in life. And in India the children who are best able to cope with extra classes starting from age 13 are the ones who often end up scoring the best marks required to get into the best reputed engineering or medical colleges.

However that does not mean that the other are dumb and that there is no life outside of engineering or medicine. Tell me, how many of China's Olympic Gold medal winners were engineers or doctors? I am a doctor. I studied in one of India's top medical schools and studied abroad after that and I find too many people with this sort of background (including many of my peers) have an inflated opinion of themselves and their capability and believe that only this background (imagined "Best of the best") are required to be leaders. That is actually rubbish.

The world consists of a lot of other skills and engineering and medicine are only part of that. But there is a sociological explanation of why Indians yearn to be doctors or engineers and it has everything to do with job availability and security in later life as perceived by many. The idea that a child must be an engineer is put into him before he can think. A semi-serious movie on this theme has been made in India (Bollywood) . You should be able to get a subtitled version. Watch it if you get a chance - it's called "Three idiots"
I am certainly not saying that Engineers are smart enough to do anything they want, I'm also not saying that the training for an Engineer can prepare you for anything in life. I'm simply saying that in China, the pool of engineers tend to be the best place to look for "the best and the brightest". If being a plumber in China is as desirable as being an Engineer, then I'd say the same thing about plumbers.

In other words, it's not the fact that they're engineers that makes them good candidates, it's the fact that they're the most talented people in China. It's been shifting over the years though, and you'll see less engineers in leadership positions in China as time passes. It won't be because engineering skills have become any more or less desirable, it'll be because the most talented people in China are increasingly choosing different professions.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

Dhiman wrote: You can't have one without the other.
[Citation Needed]
Dhiman wrote:
This is exactly how the Indian, British, and US civil services try to run the country, while their bosses, the politicians try to reflect the will of the people. But I am curious, how will the "will of the people" be determined when this system is applied in China?
This is the mandate of heaven concept. Would you say that the CCP today reflects, to certain degrees, the wishes of the Chinese people for advancement under a stable society?
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by JwalaMukhi »

http://news.rediff.com/report/2010/nov/ ... -india.htm
Chinese army conducted its first live fire drills involving both army and air force on the Qinghai Tibetan Plateau, The South China Morning Post reported on Tuesday.

Military analysts said The Peoples Liberation Army used the new generation Jian-11 fighter jets, the Hangqi -9 surface-to-air missiles and 96-B tanks in the exercse.

These war games are said to be in response to India's augmenting its border defences along the Chinese border.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by naren »

DavidD wrote:I am certainly not saying that Engineers are smart enough to do anything they want, I'm also not saying that the training for an Engineer can prepare you for anything in life. I'm simply saying that in China, the pool of engineers tend to be the best place to look for "the best and the brightest". If being a plumber in China is as desirable as being an Engineer, then I'd say the same thing about plumbers.

In other words, it's not the fact that they're engineers that makes them good candidates, it's the fact that they're the most talented people in China. It's been shifting over the years though, and you'll see less engineers in leadership positions in China as time passes. It won't be because engineering skills have become any more or less desirable, it'll be because the most talented people in China are increasingly choosing different professions.
My point is regardless of individual smartness, educational background to a certain extent reflects in policies. When you have all engineers in a room making all the big decisions, there is a bias introduced which favours certain type of thinking. Engineers are trained to excel in the technical aspects (vertical, in-depth thinking) than the organizational aspects (horizontal, broad thinking). Leadership qualities require the latter - the ability to look at the organization as a whole, to make decisions which benefits the entire organization etc, not favouring pet projects just because they are "cool". I'm sure that anyone who has worked in an org and seen the difference between managerial vs technical thinking could understand what I'm talking about. What it means is that the top brass are easily sold on the technical "awe factor" of projects rather than taking into account other factors such as profitability, environmental impact, displacement etc.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by shiv »

DavidD wrote:
In other words, it's not the fact that they're engineers that makes them good candidates, it's the fact that they're the most talented people in China.
Talented? Bright? What criteria are used to come to this conclusion? How is talent and "brightness" measured in China.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

DavidD wrote
In other words, it's not the fact that they're engineers that makes them good candidates, it's the fact that they're the most talented people in China. It's been shifting over the years though, and you'll see less engineers in leadership positions in China as time passes. It won't be because engineering skills have become any more or less desirable, it'll be because the most talented people in China are increasingly choosing different professions.
As far as I know the top level founders of the PRC were not engineers either. So running China does not seem to necessitate "engineering" skills. However what will be most interesting to know is to know how the current "most talented" crop came to be chosen into their hot-seats! Can you enlighten please? Take up the cases one by one of the regional party chiefs, and then move on to CMC and Standing Committee/Politbureau. We know more or less who belongs where, so it would immensely gratifying to know the process of their rise through the party hierarchy.

Also if they are generally talented in their chosen subject areas (I think it was also claimed here that they were all products of top Chinese universities) - they must have left traces of that talent in their academic performance and output, with contributions found in "top" Chinese academic journals - if not "international" ones. Can you refer to such peer reviewed products? There is no doubt some excellent minds among Chinese academics - and I happen to be in correspondence in some areas of mutual interest I share with them. But they are not found in the party hierarchy. Those whom I am aware of being in the hierarchy, do not produce any intellectual contribution.

While you are at it, can you also please list their family networks and their parentage - and their parents' affiliations to the party or positions if any within the party hierarchy?
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by DavidD »

naren wrote:
My point is regardless of individual smartness, educational background to a certain extent reflects in policies. When you have all engineers in a room making all the big decisions, there is a bias introduced which favours certain type of thinking. Engineers are trained to excel in the technical aspects (vertical, in-depth thinking) than the organizational aspects (horizontal, broad thinking). Leadership qualities require the latter - the ability to look at the organization as a whole, to make decisions which benefits the entire organization etc, not favouring pet projects just because they are "cool". I'm sure that anyone who has worked in an org and seen the difference between managerial vs technical thinking could understand what I'm talking about. What it means is that the top brass are easily sold on the technical "awe factor" of projects rather than taking into account other factors such as profitability, environmental impact, displacement etc.
You're still misunderstanding me. You're missing the cause and effect here. That these people are political leaders and that they are engineers are both a function of their own talents. That is, the cause is that they're talented individuals, and they've become both engineers and political leaders because of it.

Let me draw an analogy, when you catch a cold, your throat gets sore and your nose is runny. Does sore throat cause runny nose or vice versa? No. It's the virus that you caught that causes both. It's the same thing here, their engineering education doesn't make them better political leaders and vice versa. It's their own talents that make both happen.

I don't want to digress, but I'm not saying that they all got there by simply being talented either. Having inborn advantages like influential relatives or just being plain lucky help too, like in any other country.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Dhiman »

TonyMontana wrote:
Dhiman wrote: You can't have one without the other.
[Citation Needed]
Perhaps this will be a good start: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_sociology.
TonyMontana wrote:
Dhiman wrote:
This is exactly how the Indian, British, and US civil services try to run the country, while their bosses, the politicians try to reflect the will of the people. But I am curious, how will the "will of the people" be determined when this system is applied in China?
This is the mandate of heaven concept.
Good concept (and their are certainly no dearth of such concepts around the world). But should we all wait for a violent upheaval before claiming that the king has lost his divine right to rule or is their a better way to put this concept into practice?
Would you say that the CCP today reflects, to certain degrees, the wishes of the Chinese people for advancement under a stable society?
What the CCP wants is to copy the US model of world power onto China irrespective of weather that means social engineering, suppression of rights, or financial advancement / increasing standard of living. If it is about financial advancement and increasing standard of living then those would have happened with or without CCP even in a democratic setup.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by anupmisra »

Shanghai Expo Sets Record With 73 Million Visitors
And, this is how you achieve that record. Live and learn. Only in PRC.
When city officials here promised the biggest and best World Expo ever, they were not just blowing smoke, as Tao Renran and 60 co-workers at a state-run garment factory found out recently when they were asked to visit this year’s Shanghai World Expo.“We were required to come, otherwise, they said, they would cut our wages,”
According to tourism experts, state employees and government bureaucrats from virtually every part of the nation were ordered to pile onto buses, trains and planes and head to the Expo 2010 in Shanghai, this year’s singular national event, which ended on Sunday.
State-run tourist agencies had travel quotas, and state companies handed out free vouchers good for a one-day visit, all in the hopes of helping pump up the numbers.
This government campaign had a simple but noble objective: helping the six-month-long Shanghai Expo reach its target of 70 million visitors, which would shatter Japan’s Expo attendance record of 64 million, set in Osaka in 1970.
Breaking the record was a matter of national pride, and in a country with a history of mass mobilizations and state propaganda, reaching the target was not a question of whether but when.
Of course, only 5.8 percent of the visitors — about 4.2 million — were foreigners, according to government data.
It is known, for instance, that in 2008 the Beijing Olympic torch relay was masterfully stage-managed for millions of viewers of state-run television here, with crowds bused in to line the relay route and cheer on the torch bearers. Soon after the torch runner passed by, the cheering crowds were ordered to get back onto their designated buses and head to the next location along the route, where they were expected to cheer for the cameras all over again.


And, you Yindoos couldn't stage manage the CWG like the gifted Chinese? :P
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

anupmisra wrote: And, you Yindoos couldn't stage manage the CWG like the gifted Chinese? :P
I sense sarcasm. But for the MTV generation, seeing is believing. And believing means investments.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by JwalaMukhi »

brihaspati wrote: As far as I know the top level founders of the PRC were not engineers either. So running China does not seem to necessitate "engineering" skills. However what will be most interesting to know is to know how the current "most talented" crop came to be chosen into their hot-seats! Can you enlighten please?
Well, do not know about requirement of engineers to run china. But certainly at one time in history they required people with lot of skills to alter the plumbings. Could that classify as usage of "civil engineering principles" to alter the plumbing systems as in the article below.

http://factsanddetails.com/china.php?it ... subcatid=2
The tradition of using eunuchs in the imperial court goes back at least 2,000 years. Beginning in the Han Dynasty (206 B.C.- A.D. 220), palace eunuchs often ran the day to day affairs of the court. They vied for power with military leaders and scholar-bureaucrats.
The forbidden city was forbidden to all except the people who had altered plumbing systems. As the things have progressed now the skill is upgraded to practice of lobotomy. In principle, nothing much has changed. Still the inner circles of the politburo is "forbidden" to only people with altered (lobotmized/brainwashed/certified reeducation camp returnee) brains. There can be no free thought process, and hence "forbidden" nature continues.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

In interesting fag-end discussion that got stalled because of thread lock of Porki POV:
TonyMontana wrote now
China urges both side to show restraint in this tense situation and develope dialogue to resolve the remaining issues in the region. China stands by her policy of non-interference of other nation's internal affairs and will do all she can to foster an environment of stability and co-operation in the sub-continent. :rotfl:
This came after "Lestat" was banned. Only after the Paki POV is discredited and banned does TonyMontan ji talk of "both sides" and talks of "non-interference" of "other nation's internal affairs". Now is that consistent with promising to "continue to support the Pakistani government in establishing stability within your country"? Since,
TonyMontana wrote earlier:
Welcome to BRF, Lestat. The Middle Kingdom appreciates the help and support of Pakistan in the region, through out the years. China has a keen interest in stability in Pakistan and will continue to support the Pakistani government in establishing stability within your country. Unlike some Indian posters, I am confident of the survival of Pakistan as a political/state entity.
So does it mean that for this spokesperson of PRC [he assures TSP of continued support of his "nation"], "stability" of other countries is not an "internal affair" of those countries? Or since he is the spokesperson for his country - his country never really means what it says internationally? Especially where it concerns Pakistan?
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

^ Relax brihaspati-ji. Didn't you see the :rotfl: ? I was taking the piss.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by brihaspati »

^^^Seems unlikely. You were even worried at the possibility that India could take measures to prepare its populations to try and safeguard themselves as much as possible before nuke attacks from your beloved country and its lackey the Pak. You have openly declared that you will support and participate in any move that China makes on India which therefore includes the possibility of deployment and unleashing of targeted nukes to destroy population centres of India. Since you have also openly acknowledged that you are duty bound to support China in any moves against India no matter what it entails - what it meant in total was that you are okay with your country lobbing nuclear destruction on Indian people in collaboration with Pak or in support of Pak -but you are desperate to see to it that India's commons do not have any benefit of preparation.

No amount of rotfl's can hide the utter callousness and casual deception in your position in favour of your country, and the obvious mental sickness that seems to characterize the ruling regime in China - since you have also taken it upon yourself to promise on behalf of your government's continued future support towards Pak.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

brihaspati wrote:^^^Seems unlikely. You were even worried at the possibility that India could take measures to prepare its populations to try and safeguard themselves as much as possible before nuke attacks from your beloved country and its lackey the Pak. You have openly declared that you will support and participate in any move that China makes on India which therefore includes the possibility of deployment and unleashing of targeted nukes to destroy population centres of India. Since you have also openly acknowledged that you are duty bound to support China in any moves against India no matter what it entails - what it meant in total was that you are okay with your country lobbing nuclear destruction on Indian people in collaboration with Pak or in support of Pak -but you are desperate to see to it that India's commons do not have any benefit of preparation.
brihaspati-ji. You need to take a big breathe. Look out your window and see that the world is not as bad as you imagined. And stop building these giant strawmans.

Indians can do whatever you want. Why would I be worried about Indians doing nuclear evacuation drills? What I was talking about orginialy was that a War between India and China benefits India more then it does China. I will put money on China not starting a hot war with India purely for China's interests. That leave nuclear attack out of the question. You are the one that seems to be obsessed about a nuclear attack by China and I think, IMHO, you're even more obsessed about the resulting Indian nuclear retaliation against China.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Sidhant »

TonyMontana wrote: I sense sarcasm. But for the MTV generation, seeing is believing. And believing means investments.
Yeah yeah if the H&D is not maintained by orchestrating these artificial shows of strength how will you guys go lecturing around the world how awesome and benign China is.

I hope CPC does not censors MTV China :D
Last edited by Sidhant on 04 Nov 2010 06:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Sidhant »

TonyMontana wrote: What I was talking about orginialy was that a War between India and China benefits India more then it does China. I will put money on China not starting a hot war with India purely for China's interests. That leave nuclear attack out of the question. You are the one that seems to be obsessed about a nuclear attack by China and I think, IMHO, you're even more obsessed about the resulting Indian nuclear retaliation against China.
Dude, if China would not had been and authoritarian state then I would have agreed with you, but currently what exactly is China and what are Chinese interests. Currently CPC is China and CPC's interests are Chinese interests. So tomorrow if CPC thinks that its interests are better served by having a hot war with India or even for that matter Japan or US and kaboom!! we will have millions of Chinese standing on our borders baying for our blood.

And the way Chinese are so good in believing and following CPC propaganda and diktat, I wonder will there be someone who will actually be talking about Chinese interests.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

Sidhant wrote: Dude, if China would not had been and authoritarian state then I would have agreed with you, but currently what exactly is China and what are Chinese interests. Currently CPC is China and CPC's interests are Chinese interests. So tomorrow if CPC thinks that its interests are better served by having a hot war with India or even for that matter Japan or US and kaboom!! we will have millions of Chinese standing on our borders baying for our blood.
You and a lot of posters on BRF seems to think the CCP is a one dimensional boogeyman. I have a far more horrifying scenario for you. The worest case scenario for India is not a red-book waving commie CCP. The CCP that is more detrimental to Indian interests is one that is RATIONAL.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by abhishek_sharma »

China to relent on stapled visas for Kashmiris

http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-to- ... 21919.aspx
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Dhiman »

TonyMontana wrote:You and a lot of posters on BRF seems to think the CCP is a one dimensional boogeyman. I have a far more horrifying scenario for you. The worest case scenario for India is not a red-book waving commie CCP. The CCP that is more detrimental to Indian interests is one that is RATIONAL.
That completely went over my head. Would you mind explaining that (text in red).
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by Dhiman »

abhishek_sharma wrote:China to relent on stapled visas for Kashmiris

http://www.hindustantimes.com/China-to- ... 21919.aspx
Makes me think what else they will come up with now to play see-saw.
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Re: People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Post by TonyMontana »

Dhiman wrote:
TonyMontana wrote:You and a lot of posters on BRF seems to think the CCP is a one dimensional boogeyman. I have a far more horrifying scenario for you. The worest case scenario for India is not a red-book waving commie CCP. The CCP that is more detrimental to Indian interests is one that is RATIONAL.
That completely went over my head. Would you mind explaining that (text in red).
It's easy to defeat a one dimensional blood thirsty monster, than it is to defeat a bunch of rational individuals that uses cost/benifit analysis..etc to maximises benifits for China. Maximisation of Chinese interests legitimises the CCP and helps them stay in power.

I stand by my opinion that a hot war between India and China is more benificial to India, then it is to China. So if ever, China gets into a fight with India, we've already lost. So. A rational Chinese government will use cost/benifit analysis and other tools to analyise the situation and come to the same conclusion. Where as one driven by principle and ideology could make decisions not always resulting in maximisation of Chinese interests.

If you want to believe the CCP is a blood thirsty commie regime with a hard on for world domination, that is your prerogative. But don't be shocked when China keeps making rational decisions that is beneficial to her interests. (or correcting bad decisions made that is less benificial to China by not sticking to a hardline).
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