India-US Strategic News and Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2010 12:01

The news that the services are blocking signing any belittling agreements with the US im,pinging upon our national security and foreign policy options are most welcome indeed.It appears that the MOD and the services have taken the US decision,made public,to supply Pak with billions of dollars worth of arms,the Pakis embraced by Hillary Clinton in the US recently,has been regarded as greatly injurious to India,victim for decades of Paki terror and whose masterminds of 26/11 in Pak, still have yet to be brought to book.The Headley/Gilani episode is another great issue with India,with the falsehoods made by the US ambassador only adding insult to the injury of arms supplies.One key point made in the above posted report is that "Russia keeps on reminding India that it does not sell arms to Pak..".This is an important truth as we have major arms deals and JVs with Russia critical to our security like N-tech for our SSBNs,5th-gen fighters and advanced missiles like the Hypersonic Brahmos and other JVs on the anvil.Having US warships and aircraft using India as if it were an American base is simply out of the question.As the servcie chiefs have said,the high-tech components that the US will deny us if we don't sign on the dotted line "can be obtained from elsewhere".This is absolutey true as we have seen in the SU-30MKI project,where the best of east and west was obtained from Russia,Israel and France with Indian input too.

Obama's huge political defeat has come also ta an opportune time to remind Indian policy makers that the "Mess-iah" has feet of clay and as I said before,he cannot "walk on water" or perform miracles! His remaining years in office are likely to see him as a "lalme-duck" president as the Republicans chip away at his policies,blocking many in Congress,leaving him in the political doldrums which might very well see him defeated if he stands for a second term.For India to throw away its sovereignity in effect by signing dubious agreements with the US at this juncture,when it has no desire to punish Pak for its perfidy,would be to quote Gandhi,"accepting a cheque on a failing bank".

Dr.Singh and the Mess-iah are in the same boat.Both are beseiged with acute problems.Obama with political defeat at home and Dr.Singh with an avalanche of corruption scandals.LIke two drunks who cannot stand straight,they need to "lean on each other" to stay upright! They both desperately need to conjure up some deals with accompanying fine sounding diplomatic hogwash for just that very purpose.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 23627.html

Obama humbled by conservative wave
Republicans seize momentum in House of Representatives as voter disillusionment leaves Democrats facing a tough future
By David Usborne, US Editor

A conservative wave roared across the American political landscape last night, humbling President Barack Obama and instantly redrawing the landscape in Washington with a new place on the high perches of power for the flag-bearers of the ultra-conservative Tea Party movement.

As night gave away to dawn in America, a huge power-shift had materialised with the Republican Party set to seize control of the House of Representatives with a significant majority. Television networks projected that the Democrats had held on to control of the US Senate.

Thus utter humiliation was averted - but barely.

PS:The decision that shops om the Mess-iah's route should be closed is shocking.It is a massive insult to ordinary Indians.This is an act that has never ever been done before for any visiting VVIP and actually closed shops and establishments in India,are the equivalent of showing a black flag to the visitor. I wonder whether the US security and diplomutts have realised that fact!

Altair · Post by **Altair** » 03 Nov 2010 12:57

India desperately needs an own version of US's Tea Party movement

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 03 Nov 2010 14:22

It did have one - it was called the BJP in its initial days, but later morphed into a cheap version of the Congress.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 03 Nov 2010 14:37

Amazing! The CIA using Art as a Cold War weapon.

Modern art was CIA 'weapon'

Revealed: how the spy agency used unwitting artists such as Pollock and de Kooning in a cultural Cold War
By Frances Stonor Saunders
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 78808.html

The decision to include culture and art in the US Cold War arsenal was taken as soon as the CIA was founded in 1947. Dismayed at the appeal communism still had for many intellectuals and artists in the West, the new agency set up a division, the Propaganda Assets Inventory, which at its peak could influence more than 800 newspapers, magazines and public information organisations. They joked that it was like a Wurlitzer jukebox: when the CIA pushed a button it could hear whatever tune it wanted playing across the world.

PS:Just as the same agency is using its "buttons" to play the "tune" it wants in the Indian media,some say,heavily penetrated by the CIA.

Ashley Kravitz · Post by **Ashley Kravitz** » 03 Nov 2010 16:10

Nikki Haley Victory Speech

Note the Bhangra at the end

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 03 Nov 2010 17:25

When you see something like this, you cannot but help appreciate what America is, and how it got there. It's a good thing. Kudos to Nikki Haley.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Nov 2010 17:49

JEM

I am not so sure

If she could keep her original religion and manage it - I would be more impressed.

Its not a coincidence that both Nikki and Bobby did what they had to do to survive in southern politics.

Hell even the president has to burnish his credentials by going to church in public so that he can be seen.

In that sense India is moreopen

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Nov 2010 18:35

Obama speaks on the eve of India visit
Obama non-committal on permanent UNSC seat for India, dual-use exports
Times Of India

Outlining the objectives of his three-day maiden trip beginning Saturday, Obama said that building "a true strategic partnership" with India had been one of his "highest foreign policy priorities" since he assumed office in January last year. The visit would give him an opportunity to work with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to bring Indo-US cooperation on a broad range of issues "to a new level", he told PTI.

The Indo-US partnership "is based on both our shared values and our shared interests, and for these reasons, I welcome and support India's rise as a global power", the president said. India's rise "is in the best interests of both the countries (India and the US), of the region and the world", he said.

Asked about the possibility of his announcing lifting of curbs on export of dual-use technology items and more concrete support for India's permanent membership of UNSC, Obama described the two issues as "very difficult and complicated". "Our teams continue to work hard to reach an agreement that strengthens the international non-proliferation system while treating India in a manner that is consistent with our strategic partnership," he said in a reference to export restrictions that cover items which have both peaceful and military usage. Without committing himself to a firmer support for India's bid for permanent seat in UNSC, Obama said, "I do also expect to discuss India's role as an actor on the global stage during my visit."

When told that there did not seem to be any "big ticket items" on the agenda, Obama responded, "I do not want to pre-empt the announcements that the Prime Minister and I will make while I am in India. "I think you can expect a series of announcements on how we are going to deepen and broaden our cooperation on a range of things that will have a direct and very positive impact on millions of people both in India and the United States. "There will be big items on the agenda, and -- just as importantly -- I believe that we will build an even stronger foundation for the US-India partnership going forward."

The president went on to emphasise that Indo-US relationship "now goes well beyond any one particular issue". He said, "if you look at the breadth of everything we are working on now -- from economic engagement to counter terrorism and security cooperation, from clean energy to development .. it goes well beyond the type of cooperation that we pursued just a few years ago." All this indicated "the enormously positive trajectory of US-India relations", Obama said.

Outlining his vision of the relationship between the two countries, the president said, "my vision is a US-India partnership in which we work together to shape a more secure, stable, and just world. "My visit gives me an opportunity to experience first hand your fascinating country, discuss issues of mutual concern with my friend Prime Minister Singh, and work with him to bring our cooperation on a broad range of issues to a new level.

"It is also important that I am visiting India as the first stop on a major trip to Asia, as I see India as a cornerstone of America's engagement in Asia, just as it is fundamental to our engagement in multilateral forums like the G-20. "To me, the US and India share an indispensable partnership, one that has benefits for both our countries and the world."

Blah blah blah..

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 03 Nov 2010 18:41

Obama on Nuclear Liability Act
NDTV

Obama was asked about reports that the US companies were unhappy with some of the provisions of the Nuclear Liability Act passed recently by Indian Parliament to enable the country to engage in nuclear commerce, and whether he would press New Delhi to review it.

He replied, "I have a deep respect for India's democratic process and I also continue to encourage the Indian government to provide domestic and international suppliers the opportunity to help India meet its ambitious nuclear power generation needs.

"I believe that Indian officials are aware of our concerns over the law that was recently passed by the Indian Parliament. These concerns are shared by many others, including some Indian officials and representatives of Indian industry.

"The important thing is that our governments are working together to discuss these concerns and resolve them. That is a demonstration of the strength of our partnership ... how discussing our concerns brings us closer, instead of driving us apart."

http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/big-t ... bama-64278

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Nov 2010 18:59

JE Menon wrote:When you see something like this, you cannot but help appreciate what America is, and how it got there. It's a good thing. Kudos to Nikki Haley.

Can't believe you of all people are taken in by this. How can you be so admiring of a system in which one has to disown their soul and deracinate themsleves of any semblance of their non-white, non-Christian heritage to be "accepted"?

Surya:

India is on the other extreme. As much as I do not accept USA's open-ness as JE MenonJi or many others do, I belive its the most stable system there is where the will of the majority, the majority culture, race of the majority, and the religion of the majority are overwhelmingly reflected in the national political ethos. So much so that Obama has to come out of a Church with a Bible every Sunday, and he tucked his tail and ran away at the thought of visiting the glorious Golden temple lest Fox news allege that he is visiting a madraasa.

In contrast, look at India, where the million muties can't even agree that the sun rises in the east, and where 2 + 2 = 5 is accepted as an opinion. In USA, can anyone dare even hint of an equivalence between Islamic extrenmism and its tea party counterpart? In India, despite loosing 1000s to TSP-sponsored Isalmic terrorism which has the potential to unravel India, the dominant narrative is the artificial concocted equivalence between that and so called saffron extremism. In fact, no Indian in public space dare use the phrase Isalmic extremism for fear of being beheaded. You call that openess or intellectual cowardice?

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2010 19:15

^
++1

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 03 Nov 2010 19:46

>>Can't believe you of all people are taken in by this. How can you be so admiring of a system in which one has to disown their soul and deracinate themsleves of any semblance of their non-white, non-Christian heritage to be "accepted"

Like Barak Hussein Obama? The man who distanced himself from his priest. There are plenty of others. Let's try not to get trapped into words like "deracinated" and "disown their soul". Did you hear the bhangra? I'm speaking here of the US strengths, not of Nikki Haley's character. We really know next to nothing about what sort of person she really is. What we see is the public persona.

We must be able to understand and appreciate the strengths of America, so we can take what is good and set aside what does not resonate with us.

Surya,

I'm not saying they are "more open" than India. Ours is probably the most open society on the planet in many respects. Merely appreciating the possibilities that just about anyone can have in America. Including many of us who have made our lives there (not me, I'm somewhere else). I'm just recognising that America has inherent strengths we must be able to appreciate while we are also able to criticise its for its faults. This is a country that we can really engage with, at a very fundamental level. And we should leverage that ability and capacity to engage to the hilt. Both countries will benefit. It will shape the world.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Nov 2010 19:49

ramana wrote: BTW, Tea Party got ~2 senate seats and ~10 Congress seats. Enough to remake DC.

The established leaders still control them. The tail cannot wag the dog all the time, some times yes. But not all the time.

Mort Walker wrote:Congress does control the purse strings, but more than likely the Republicans will adopt a "oppose anything" Obama proposes in domestic and international affairs. It will be a time of endless subpoenas and hearings with the house attempting to give credence to impeachment issues. Obama can veto anything the house comes up with and or kill it in the senate. If Obama pushes the business agenda, only then will the Republicans go along with him.

Expect negative publicity about Obama's India trip at the end of this week.

That is what they did when they did not control the House or the Senate. Now the party of "No" has a shot in the arm. Interesting times ahead. He has not really done anything major to be against them so far. In fact he has almost proven that all these politicians are in the pockets of Big Business. Americans are deluded lot. The wealth has been fast disappearing from the people and enriching a few and the Corporations; yet they talk about government spending. Never a word about controlling personal spending. Once the Corporations have sucked the last drop of blood, they will turn their attention, fully, towards other populous countries - ahem ahem India. It is not they have not made inroads.

abhischekcc wrote:It did have one - it was called the BJP in its initial days, but later morphed into a cheap version of the Congress.

Isn't that an insult to BJP? Equating them with Tea Party?

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 03 Nov 2010 19:56

I think there is an ideal that we hope for while there is a reality which is one step towards this ideal. In this sense what we are seeing and being highlighted in the video is an excellent forward step towards an ideal where in a majoritarian culture the minority groups would be accepted as they are rather than being expected to change their basic identity to become a leader!
I hope in a few generation such maturity would develop while we can also think in some countries this would be in reverse.
In India George Fernandes was supposed to be a faithful Catholic but then later he had to let his identity go away to become a prominant leader in many ways. There were many examples one may find in different contexts. In Singapore we had a president who was a faithful South Indian Hindu but was able to represent the country without loosing his identity. In Malayasia too similar laeders were there. By electing an India US society has shown a maturity at this level and also has shown that they are trying to move towards an ideal civilised society in spite of some of their limitations and attitude towards many Muslims.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 03 Nov 2010 20:03

SaiK wrote:something nice is happening in US is the young guns taking over old hats. nice show [hope India learns]

It is not young or old leadership. It is the vision and thinking that matters. In spite of what every one says, senior Bush and Clinton were better for America in cutting debt/deficit because they worked flexibly with a Congress that is against them. They made positive changes by cutting too much Govt. and less rhetoric than someone like Regan or W Bush (Jr). If we ntoice, both Regan and W were responsible for increasing debt/deficit, long wars and laid/expanded foundations of Islamic terrorism in the whole world.

Altair wrote:India desperately needs an own version of US's Tea Party movement

Not sure about it. We need good Governance. We need a Primary system to weed out dynastic and dangerous terrorist/traitorous/criminal elements seeping into our system of democracy. We need strong and independent (preferably elected) institutions in law/order, justice, election departments.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 03 Nov 2010 20:13

NYT is showing a giant +40% swing in favour of republicans.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 03 Nov 2010 20:20

Obama needs to do some thing for the poor and the middle working class in United States. Without doing something radically to help these two big groups he is going to lead a losing political game in US. This means a bit of spending culture again but it is needed to keep many people on the right track.

Rich Tax Breaks Three Times Less Benefit Than Middle Class Tax Cuts Say Robert Weiner, Ex-White House and Congressional Spokesman, and Analyst Varun Saxena
http://www.centredaily.com/2010/11/02/2 ... -less.html

Out of touch and out of favour: the future looks bleak for Barack Obama
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/colu ... Obama.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2010 20:53

SwamyG, What the Tea Party did for the US yesterday is:

- Moved the whole debate. All center left and center right guys are gone. Its now a clear Left and Right in American politics.

- By enabling the Repub victory has ensured there is generational change in the political process. All the old timers in Democrats table who have lost the committee leadership positions will soon retire.
- By making sure there is Tea Party caucus in side the Repubs they plan to keep the agenda focussed

- They brought the focus back to Main street from Wall Street.

BTW in case you dont know Tea party has 40% Democrats!

This has been a good elections:

The candidate for whom my kid walked precincts won the Congress seat.
One who I supported became Governor. Another is still toss up.

In future what I expect to see is Indian Americans as strategists for the mainstream parties and ocuupying center stage on the news channels.

Even though Ind-Am are liberals, the Democrats wont give them any hawa. So I expect the 20102 and 2016 elections seeing Ind-Am strategists for Repubs and Democrats.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2010 20:58

Surya, Despite all that they both are called as Indian Americans. Cna you dispute that.
And both are from Republican party. The Democrats like Indian money (Recall Obama calling Clinton D-Punjab) but dont like to run Indian candidates in winning seats. Either run them where they have no chances like Beri or Goyal.

arjunm · Post by **arjunm** » 03 Nov 2010 21:01

Cramsji double thumbs up-exactly I feel the same way.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2010 21:08

SaiK wrote:Something nice is happening in US is the young guns taking over old hats. nice show [hope India learns]

In India old and young have to be from Gandhi family. Its a democratic dynasty.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2010 21:28

Deccan Chronicle: What India wants

1 US endorsement for a UNSC seat is the big prize.
2 Induction into the Nuclear Suppliers’ Group.
3 Assurances from the US on the nature of its military aid to Pakistan
4 Assurances on US’ Afghan policy post-July 2011.
5 Removal of ISRO, DRDO, DAE from the US Entities List.
6 Assurances for India’s outsourcing
industry.

US already mentioned that it cannot do 1 and 5. It cannot do 3 or 4 either until Af-Pak issue is solved (which is Point 1 on US list below). Obama cannot do 6 after yesterdays election.

That leaves point 2. Can US do that alone, without giving up to PRC on Pakistan nuke plants???

What US wants
1 India should do nothing to queer the pitch for the US in Af-Pak.
2 Assurance that US nuclear suppliers will not be liable in case of accidents
3 India should sign several pending defence agreements
4 Buy more US military equipment.
5 Open up Indian market for US dairy and farm products.
6 Open up sectors such as telecom, defence for higher FDI

Expectations 1 and 3 hurt Indian external interests. Expectations 2, 4, 5, and 6 hurt Internal interests.

If India buys $100B equipment, requiring a $30B offset, and US wants to invest that amount in India thru its own defence holdings as FDI. Will that satisfy the offset clause? It may offer some employment (~10-15,000 jobs for $100B purchase) but in what way it will help India in gaining technology Independence?

and people want to sell this proposition as STRATEGIC PARTNERSHIP

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Nov 2010 21:43

ramana:

You make a good point on dems Vs reps when it comes to Indian Americans and other minorities - namely, that dems won't easily put Indian amercians on as willingly as reps. And there is a reason for this.

Dems mostly consist of sophisticated, well-read intellectuals and hence not easy for someone less endowed to make the upper echelons.

Reps on the other hand traditionally and still for the most part are dominated by white Christian right, and with changing demographics, they needs some mouthpieces to showcase their diversity. Hence, as a minority, as long one repeats right wing mantras like a loyal moutpiece, and sounds maacho, he/she serves as a useful idiot and can easily get on board. Examples are some of those African Amercans like RNC charman Steele who can sound more loyal than the king or Clarenece Thomas who would even make a demagouge like Pat Buchanan hang his head in shame

, or Indian Americans like Bobby Jindal or Nikki Haley who embrace right-wing ideology with no guilt. Ditto many of those attractive bimbet women that reps parrot on Fox news and elsewhere. I mean those spiteful women spew venom wihout any substance will find it impossiible to intelligently and coherently articulate an issue (left or right) in substantive terms like many feminist liberal intellectuals.

So I hope you get the drift. But in due course, when the useful idiots serve their purpose, you can be rest assured they will be dumped like Charmin rolls, excpet probably white women who may find a permanent place among the reps.

But as far as I am concerned, dems or reps, its India TSP equal equal onlee. I go on a person by person basis to see who is more favorable to India.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 03 Nov 2010 21:53

Ramana garu:
I disagree. Why did they not just create a new third party? Tea Party is nothing but an example of human exploitation by the American political parties and corporations. The angers were fueled and fanned by Faux News, Celebrities and Corporations.

If you want to credit the right entity, then it should be the Bush Administration that widened the Left and Right debate. His administrations actions and in-actions caused the upheaval that launched Obama; and the Presidency of Obama that fanned the fears and angers of the few. Tea Party is just a consequence.

Yes, I know there are different folks in that crowd including some democrats, that does not make them any less crazy. The extreme left is as crazy and delusional as the extreme right. Once these folks get elected to office, then they realize how tough it is to run an office let alone a country. Doodh ka doodh, paani ka paani tab patha chalega. These politicians sweep the elections with rhetoric, even a cursory reading of our "economics perspective" dhaaga tells us the problems America and the World are facing. But votes are gathered and cast on simple black n white logic.

It is the same old mid-term elections, the incumbents been thrown out. The sitting President losing people's faith. It is like Tamil Nadu, they vote for DMK, then they get fed up in the next election,so they vote for AIADMK. The cycle continues.

America, for that matter any country, will shine only when its intellectuals are allowed to shine. Right now I don't see that happening in either party. It is D&G onlee.

It is funny to see how the clowns are juggling things, and sad to see real good humans suffering. It is sad all the more, because what happens in USA will impact the World whether one wants it or not. It is left to the leaders of countries, like India, on how effectively they tide the crisis.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2010 22:03

SwamyG wrote: Yes, I know there are different folks in that crowd including some democrats, that does not make them any less crazy. The extreme left is as crazy and delusional as the extreme right. Once these folks get elected to office, then they realize how tough it is to run an office let alone a country. Doodh ka doodh, paani ka paani tab patha chalega. These politicians sweep the elections with rhetoric, even a cursory reading of our "economics perspective" dhaaga tells us the problems America and the World are facing. But votes are gathered and cast on simple black n white logic.

If left is as crazy as right and running a country is a task of different nature, what is the point of political parties, elections, and demoncracy

What makes a Obama or a Bush or a Clinton

or a MMS or a SG/RG the right candidate when the doodh and pani will come out only after they get elected?

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 03 Nov 2010 22:11

The easiest way forUS to protect dual use technology is to Insist with India that Only Public Sector Ordinance factorys make the dual use stuff. While uncle will happly collect money for dual use our OFB will sleep as usual. This way India will have technology named "Dual Use" which will be turned into USeless or USe Less at the same time uncle will collect his dollars sent to India by Gulf / Hamalis, cooks, construction, itvitychaps, BPO workers working US hours...
Alls well tha ends well.
Coming to Ameria

I was listening to BBC world review and US elections, The washington correspondent of BBC (tyhe lady who also is regular fixture, on David gregory/late Tim Russet prog on NBC0 was BSing about South carolina Gov race. She ws talking about Nikki hailey, one guy said Nikki was Indian American who converted to Christianity from Sikhism, this lady chips in her typical Brutish way but she had a Hindu wedding too ... katty Kay
what a bunch of idiots and racists these ..

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2010 22:15

You have th right to disagree. However in US its two party system. So a third party will defeat itself. Starting a new party for every disagreement is not helpful if the object is to get power to change.
I still stand by my assessment shown a few posts ago and repeated here:

- Moved the whole debate. All center left and center right guys are gone. Its now a clear Left and Right in American politics.

- By enabling the Repub victory has ensured there is generational change in the political process. All the old timers in Democrats table who have lost the committee leadership positions will soon retire.
- By making sure there is Tea Party caucus in side the Repubs they plan to keep the agenda focussed

- They brought the focus back to Main street from Wall Street.

And ran it by my colleagues and they nod in agreement especially the second point.

-----
ShivaS, You should have seen the catty talk on CNN about her win last night!

CNN also reported the solid support from the Ind-Am community for her across the US.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 03 Nov 2010 22:25

The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 03 Nov 2010 22:35

because your not in the middle hence skewed views.
Not at all if you read carefully, all are for correct and mutually beneficial relations for both countries. Because they have so much in common (thinking) including Pakistan's future...

I dont blame youyou need vision to understand BRF...
just stay around and be tuned you will excell

Keep hope and the change too.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 03 Nov 2010 22:44

CRamS wrote:But in due course, when the useful idiots serve their purpose, you can be rest assured they will be dumped like Charmin rolls, excpet probably white women who may find a permanent place among the reps.

CRamS wrote:Reps on the other hand traditionally and still for the most part are dominated by white Christian right, and with changing demographics, they needs some mouthpieces to showcase their diversity. Hence, as a minority, as long one repeats right wing mantras like a loyal moutpiece, and sounds maacho, he/she serves as a useful idiot and can easily get on board.

If the demographics keep on swinging away from the White Christians, how can one expect, that "the purpose of the useful idiots will be served". The purpose will remain and even increase, so one need not even think of purpose coming to end.

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 03 Nov 2010 22:46

^ RajeshA

That is a good question and the answer lies at home. Look at history of INC.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 03 Nov 2010 23:11

Arjun wrote:The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?

I am not a US citizen, and don't have a bone in the battle. However, one issue many including you seems to confuse is to equate the right wing in the US to the right wing in India. It is not such a clear one is to one mapping.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 03 Nov 2010 23:28

Arjun wrote:The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?

Absolutely no dissonance here. Left or Right in US, they are fulsome in the belief of the superiority of US and western civilization over everything else. The left in India on other hand are uncomfortable with the idea of India, especially the Hindu civilizational basis of India.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 03 Nov 2010 23:28

Surya, Despite all that they both are called as Indian Americans. Cna you dispute that.
And both are from Republican party. The Democrats like Indian money (Recall Obama calling Clinton D-Punjab) but dont like to run Indian candidates in winning seats. Either run them where they have no chances like Beri or Goyal

I agree (especially on Democrats) except I would like to see them respond on something crucial to us and see which way they skid. I am not yet ready to raise them on a pedestal

JEM - I understand what you say - just saying that I am not sure the degree of it.

BTW I am being asked questions on what temple in india required Obama to wear a headgear.

Good lord !!!!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 03 Nov 2010 23:29

putnanja wrote:
Arjun wrote:The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?
I am not a US citizen, and don't have a bone in the battle. However, one issue many including you seems to confuse is to equate the right wing in the US to the right wing in India. It is not such a clear one is to one mapping.

That could be a good explanation, but I would like to get to understand the distinction to a greater level of detail...despite my somewhat flame-type post above, I am genuinely interested in understanding how various folks, including CRAMS and SwamyG reconcile their very clear disgust for the right in US, with their views wrt India....

I know one of the points raised will be that in India the system is actually anti-majority community, while in the US there is more of a level playing ground / tilt towards majority community, and hence the difference. I am very much aware of this, and sympathetic to this as well, but then what provoked me was the venom in some of the posts that talked about the Republicans or Tea Party....that seems to parallel the venom the ARoys of the world have against the BJP. Some of the arguments used are the same as well....Does the right in the US deserve such venom? - I can understand the conservatives in Saudi or a Musim country deserving it, but the US right? Incidentally I am a US citizen, based in India since middle of last year - so have missed out on the entire Tea Party phenomenon.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2010 23:50

ramana wrote:
- By enabling the Repub victory has ensured there is generational change in the political process. All the old timers in Democrats table who have lost the committee leadership positions will soon retire.
-
And ran it by my colleagues and they nod in agreement especially the second point.

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The baby boomers are on notice by a new generation. The 4 tea party candidates were watched - Rand Paul, Marco Rubio, Christina Odonnell and Sharron Angle from NV.
They were supposed to change the nature of the political process and also take on the opponents.
The thing in the mind of the generation is worry that they will not be able to keep the country as it was before in the future. Also Rand Paul talks about the China, funding from china for US deficit and reducing govt spending. They are willing to cut away from China trade which other republicans are not willing to do. Watch the statements of the tea party candidates in the house to find out what is their actual policy. It is not clear but they dont want to reveal everything.

This is the discussion which will start coming from now onwards.

LINK

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 03 Nov 2010 23:52

CRamS wrote:
Arjun wrote:The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?
Absolutely no dissonance here. Left or Right in US, they are fulsome in the belief of the superiority of US and western civilization over everything else. The left in India on other hand are uncomfortable with the idea of India, especially the Hindu civilizational basis of India.

Agree with the comment regarding left in India.

With regard to internal policies, the US right does not allow its belief in superiority to result in any discriminatory laws or regulations - which is something the US can be justly proud of. As regards external relations, you yourself agree there is no difference between the policies of the Dems and Republicans, and if anything Dems are worse for India. So why the angst, from an Indian American perspective?

The only 2 reasons I can think of are (1) possibly reps might have greater tendency to sponsor EJ activity in India, and (2) the right tends to be more racist at a personal level which puts off a lot of Indian Americans. Both of these two, am not sure are really correct - need more facts to justify one way or other.

When I hear arguments like the Democrats are more intellectual, Republicans are putting up minority candidates just for showcasing their diversity etc - those are exactly the arguments that are thrown by the liberal left in India against the BJP....and I know for a fact that the Indian version is standard calumny not worth responding to.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 03 Nov 2010 23:59

CRamS wrote:
JE Menon wrote:When you see something like this, you cannot but help appreciate what America is, and how it got there. It's a good thing. Kudos to Nikki Haley.
Can't believe you of all people are taken in by this. How can you be so admiring of a system in which one has to disown their soul and deracinate themsleves of any semblance of their non-white, non-Christian heritage to be "accepted"?

Many people not close enough will be taken in by the show and the media.
Deep family held conservative beliefs and southern culture are not shown openly nowadays.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 04 Nov 2010 00:08

Arjun wrote:The dissonance between individuals on this board holding vitriolically left liberal positions wrt US politics and then turning right around and holding right of center views with respect to India never fails to amuse me...Can one of the gurus explain what specific policiies of the Tea Party seems to rile them so much?

I think its due to the self-identification as the "other" in US despite what the Census stats show. Ind-Ams are ~3M in numbers and the highest per captia. Yet they haven't identified with main stream yet. Another thing is the pop has the highest educational achievements which should translate into intellectual leadership but hasn't yet materialised due to the self image. With more time they will shed the under-dog self image and be more mainstream.

Surya, who is putting people on pedestals?

BTW if folks, recall along with another member, I had predicted the rise of Obama during the primaries.

I am an observer and say things as I see them.

CRS have you really followed the South Carolina and Lousiana elections. The vitroil came form the Democrats.

In Lousiana, the Democrat suggested Bobby Jindal was a Muslim.

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 04 Nov 2010 01:24

ramana wrote:The Democrats like Indian money (Recall Obama calling Clinton D-Punjab) but dont like to run Indian candidates in winning seats. Either run them where they have no chances like Beri or Goyal.

There weren't really many winning seats for Dems this year that wasn't already taken by incumbents.
But yes, in general I agree with you that the Dem lean of Indian Americans is unjustified.