LCA News and Discussions

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Locked
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

indranilroy wrote:Question. Kanson ji has been speaking about an ongoing NAL discussion to add a small elevator on the tail. Kansonji any more details about the same.
....
Your says please?
Opps, I thought that was known to us. Here is the link.

1. 2008, presented in AiAA conf. by ADA, http://pdf.aiaa.org/preview/CDReadyMASM ... 08_336.pdf, this paper studies in using LEVCON for solving the pitch-up problem.

2. 2009, NAL study, http://nal-ir.nal.res.in/8836/, it talks about using small swiveling T-tail to solve the same pitch-up problem.

Get us these papers, i'm sure it will have lot of more useful details to make us more educated about LCA.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

merlin wrote:Ok, finally found the printout of the post by an old poster with the handle Siva Mahalingam (post is from 6/1/98 in the old BR Forum). I have typed an extract below since my scanner is on the blink. Bear in mind the following disclaimer that the author has also written - "I have been following the development of the LCA since it's inception. The following is my assessment of the LCA in comparison with it's rivals. Most of the information is from articles and analysis in various aircraft publications and news releases. The comparison represents my opinions and is therefore not necessarily all correct, but I hope they will provoke discussion."

Extract:

"(LCA) Uses delta planform rather than close coupled canard arrangement of Gripen, Rafale, Eurofighter and Lavi/F10, or conventional aft tail arrangement of F16 and F22. Delta wing has the disadvantage of loss of control at high angle of attack due to airflow at wing root abruptly changing between straight back over wing to cutting upward and across fuselage. Mirage 2000 and Kfir/Cheetah Mirage III modifications have strakes /small canards in front of wing for this reason. Close coupled canard selected for Gripen, Rafael, Eurofighter, Lavi/F10 and aft tail selected for F22 also for same reason. These either provide alternative control surface unaffected by air flow changes or fixed canards to increase the angle of attach required to change airflow (Kfir) or strakes to induce a vortex which ensures the change will occur gradually and so not lead to loss of control (Mirage 2000). In the LCA the designers have solved the problem by using a reduced (compound) sweep at the wing root and using a wing which is high at the front (and low at the back (by tipping the fuselage forward) and with anhedral in order to avoid excessive roll stability). These features also have the beneficial effect of improving forward and sideways visibility. The effectiveness of the vertical fin is also increased by tipping the fuselage forward due to airflow being deflected onto the fin from the wing when the aircraft tries to go sideways (the F4 Phantom has downward tilted tailplane for same reason). This results in a smaller fin than the other aircraft, which saves weight and reduces lateral radar cross section.

The advantage of using a delta are reduction in weight and complexity by doing away with the canards and their actuators, which is important in a very small aircraft. The disadvantage is that in order to achieve the same maneuverability as close coupled canard or aft tail configuration, a delta must be made more unstable and so place greater demands on the fly by wire system. The Gripen designers considered a delta arrangement but rejected it on the grounds that it was too risky. The weight savings and reduced drag from elimination of canards or tailplane should give LCA a good acceleration, rate of climb and rate of turn compared with F16, Rafael, Eurofighter. Lavi/F10 even though its small size means avionics, pilot and missiles will form a greater proportion of its weight."
Thanks Merlin for typing this out.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

I'm always forced to compare LCA to that of F-16XL whenever comparison was made LCA with other planes(like JF-17) with simple wing form or which is not double delta.

Reason is, F-16XL brings out the difference it could make between a double delta plane and a delta plane or simply a conventional wing form with tailplane which is F-16.

There is no other example. It a standard proof how much a difference a double delta with RSS/FBW could make from an conventional F-16 as F-16XL is modified F-16 retaining the basic characteristics of F-16.

So for those like Das who thinks to make LCA a modern version of Ajeet instead of Tejas, although it may not be actually comparable, i like to put it in terms of F-16XL, how much we could have lost if we have chosen a conventional wing design instead of double delta as in Tejas.

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Magazi ... f16xl.aspx
Harry J. Hillaker was chief project engineer for the advanced versions of the F-16. Harry has been involved in the advanced design of every major aircraft produced at Fort Worth since 1942. He served as YF-16 deputy chief engineer and director of F-16 deputy chief engineer and director of F-16 marketing before turning to leading the F-16XL design effort. The advanced designs that led to the F-16XL were undertaken with company funds and with the cooperation of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) and USAF.

Hillaker said that the objective of the F-16XL program was to achieve a logical evolution from the basic F-16 that would provide significant improvements in all mission performance elements. At the same time, it would retain the fundamental F-16 advantage of low procurement and operating costs. Although the principal improvements were to be in range and payload capabilities, simultaneous improvements in all other mission elements were to be given equal emphasis. For example, survivability was to be a prerequisite to longer range. Higher military power (non-afterburning) penetration speed, lower observables, increased maneuver agility, and reduced vulnerable area increased the survival rate so as to be consistent with a longer-range/deeper-penetration capability. Many of the improvements resulted from the design team’s innovative approach to integrating the weapons and airframe rather than hanging weapons on in the conventional high-drag, destabilizing manner.

To say that Hillaker’s design team achieved its objectives is an understatement. Example: For an air-to-surface mission, the F-16XL can carry twice the payload of the F-16A up to forty-four percent farther, and do it without external fuel tanks while carrying four AMRAAM (Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles) and two Sidewinder AIM-9 infrared missiles. With equal payload/weapons and external fuel, the mission radius can be nearly doubled. When configured for a pure air-to-air mission, an F-6XL with four AMRAAMs and two AIM-9s can go forty-five percent farther than an F-16A and can do so while conducting a combat action that is equal to thirty percent of its internal fuel.(Check the comment from IAF exclaiming how such a small plane, Tejas, having such a long leg and that is just Mark-I)

As for penetration and survivability, the F-16XL can dash supersonically with a load of bombs at either high or low altitude. It can climb at high rates with the bombs aboard. And it has a speed advantage of up to eighty-three knots over the F-16A at sea level at military power setting and 311 knots on afterburner at altitude while carrying a bomb load.(Check the news of Tejas clocking highest speed a sea level for Indian fighter jets)

Two additional capabilities of the F-16XL contribute to survivability. First is improved instantaneous maneuver ability coupled with greatly expanded flight operating limits (with bombs), and second is reduced radar signature resulting from the configuration shaping. (I don't have to say anything, it is obvious.)

Importance of High Turn Rate

For a decade and a half, many fighter tacticians have stressed the paramount importance of being able to sustain a high turn rate at high Gs. The rationale was that with such a capability, enemy aircraft that cannot equal or better the sustained turn rate at high Gs could not get off a killing shot with guns or missiles.

With developments in missiles that can engage at all aspects, and as a result of having evaluated Israeli successes in combat, the tacticians are now leaning toward the driving need for quick, high-G turns to get a “first-shot, quick-kill” capability before the adversary is able to launch his missiles. This the F-16XL can do. Harry Hillaker says it can attain five Gs in 0.8 seconds, on the way to nine Gs in just a bit more time. That’s half the time required for the F-16A, which in turn is less than half the time required for the F-4. The speed loss to achieve five Gs is likewise half that of the F-16A. (Though we haven't heard on this scale, it is well established, Tejas can make tight turn much more comfortable than Mirage-2000.)

All of these apparent miracles seem to violate the laws of aerodynamics by achieving greater range, payload, maneuverability, and survivability. Instead, they are achieved by inspired design, much wind-tunnel testing of shapes, exploitation of advanced technologies, and freedom from the normal contract constraints.

The inspired design mates a “cranked-arrow” wing to a fifty-six inch longer fuselage. The cranked-arrow design retains the advantages of delta wings for high-speed flight, but overcomes all of the disadvantages by having its aft portion less highly swept than the forward section. It thus retains excellent low-speed characteristics and minimizes the trim drag penalties of a tailless delta.

Although the wing area is more than double that of the standard F-16 (633square feet vs. 300 square feet), the drag is actually reduced. The skin friction drag that is a function of the increased wetted (skin surface) area is increased, but the other components of drag (wave, interference, and trim) that are a function of the configuration shape and arrangement are lower so that the “clean airplane” drag is slightly lower during level flight, and forty percent lower when bombs and missiles are added. And although the thrust-to-weight (T/W) ratio is lower due to the increased weight, the excess thrust is greater because the drag is lower – and excess thrust is what counts.

The larger yet more efficient wing provides a larger area for external stores carriage. At the same time, the wing’s internal volume and the lengthened fuselage enable the XL to carry more than eighty percent more fuel internally. That permits an advantageous tradeoff between weapons carried and external fuel tanks.

Through cooperation with NASA, more than 3,600 hours of wind-tunnel testing refined the shapes that Harry Hillaker and his designers conceived. More than 150 shapes were tried, with the optimum design now flying on the two aircraft at Edwards.

As an additional technology, the XL’s wing skins are composed of an advanced graphite composite material that has a better strength-to-weight ratio than aluminum, is easier to form to the compound wing contours, and has higher stiffness to reduce undesirable flexibility effects.
and there is still Mark-2 yet to come.
astal
BRFite
Posts: 185
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 03:06
Location: virtual back bench

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by astal »

There was an interesting quote from P.S. Subramaniam, Director ADA. Something on the lines of "It would have been easier if we had first designed the Naval LCA before attempting the Airforce version." This had struck me as odd at the time, as I assumed that the Naval version would be more complex.

After the extended discussion on angle of attack, could it be that adding LEVCONS safely allows testing at higher AOA? If so, would it be beneficial to test the naval versions first for high angle of attack?
glene
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 5
Joined: 04 Nov 2010 11:46

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by glene »

vardhank
BRFite
Posts: 192
Joined: 17 Feb 2007 15:16
Location: Mumbai

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vardhank »

^^ Awesome news. How much work would be needed to fit the Kaveri into a Tejas LSP?

Also, a couple of noob questions:
1) Just for the heck of it, does anyone have a visual size comparison between the LCA and the MKI? Had a "holy s***!" moment when I saw this pic, which I'd ignored earlier:
. The size difference between the LCA and EF was startling, especially given how tiny the EF is in comparison to the Su-30 (
.
2) Any particular reason that the LCA doesn't have a full bubble canopy like the F-16? Is the dorsal spine important for fuel storage, or is it something structural? Wouldn't a bubble have been better for visibility etc? Actually, what's the test team's take on the visibility in the LCA?
Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

indranilroy,
Developing TV nozzles with mere 40kg weight is a big achievement. If TVC can be applied to Tejas with such small weight penalty then it is certainly worth looking into. However, with the selection of GE-414, there is little chance of that happening.

PS: My 600-700kg weight increase estimate was based upon F-16 MATV program. The overall weight increase of F-16 in that program was around 650kg (including the weight of ballast). This countered any benefit that TVC provided and the Americans concluded that TVC has little benefit for a light fighter. However, with mere 40kg weight increase, the equation may chaange.

Also, the much controversial Dr. Pradyut Das had once stated that TVC would make a light a/c like LCA uncontrollable. However, I am in no position to judge whether he is correct or not.
shukla
BRFite
Posts: 1727
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 20:50
Location: Land of Oz!

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by shukla »

LCA to be operational after engine selection process
Deccan Herald
The Mark-II version of the indigenous state-of-the-art Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) should be operational in the next two to three years after the process of selecting better engines is completed, said Air Chief Marshal P V Naik."

LCA has taken a long way to come to the stage where it is now. By the middle of next year, LCA Mark-I will be inducted into the operationalised squadrons. At the same time, the process of selection of engine for LCA Mark-II is nearing completion,” Naik said.
chackojoseph
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4297
Joined: 01 Mar 2010 22:42
Location: From Frontier India
Contact:

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by chackojoseph »

^^^^^ That reminds me. if engines happen, then NGFA go ahead will be a matter of time.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Gaur Sahab, I am just speaking about using the TVC as a tailplane for basic pitch induction. I am in no way asking about using it any complex way for post stall maneuvers and the likes. In my envisioned role, there is noway in which the plane will suddenly become uncontrollable.

We can use TVC for increase in range, reduction in drag etc with very very simple functions.

P.S. I am not advocating TVC for Tejas or the need for it. All I am saying is that if the designers feel a requirement for more maneuverability in the pitch axis, TVC is a good option, because it gives a smoother ride, is not affected by orientation of the plane, decreases drag rather than increasing it, doesn't increase RCS.

I have a feeling with the technology developed by the Spanish, one would see TVC with most upcoming engines. The best thing I like about there design is the simplicity. I simple design is generally a very good design.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

astal wrote:After the extended discussion on angle of attack, could it be that adding LEVCONS safely allows testing at higher AOA? If so, would it be beneficial to test the naval versions first for high angle of attack?
Is it not obvious? Every addition of control surface is done with the intention to increase the control-ability.

If I can, i can walk with two legs comfortably, with all the fastness and agility that i could muster. But, I can also take the help of one hand which can hold a walking stick in addition to two legs to increase my balance over walking. If needed in addition i could use both hands by holding crutches to aid my two legs. But using anything more than two legs to make a single movement, am i not loosing either fastness or agility in that process?
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4133
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Neela »

Maybe this was posted before.

Google Earth shows Sulur AFB extended by 600m. Original length 2500m
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

NewBie question: When will LSP 5 fly?

Can't handle the wait anymore ... two more taxi trials they said a week back :oops:
Last edited by Indranil on 05 Nov 2010 22:45, edited 1 time in total.
astal
BRFite
Posts: 185
Joined: 07 Jul 2005 03:06
Location: virtual back bench

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by astal »

Kanson wrote:
astal wrote:After the extended discussion on angle of attack, could it be that adding LEVCONS safely allows testing at higher AOA? If so, would it be beneficial to test the naval versions first for high angle of attack?
Is it not obvious? Every addition of control surface is done with the intention to increase the control-ability.
Thanks for the reply. Indeed it is obvious that adding a control surface increases ability to manipulate airflow. I was thinking two things though.

1) FBW complexity (and weight of the aircraft) increases with every control surface. At what point could we decide that the added FBW complexity was easier to tackle than high AOA testing?

2) Why don't we dedicate a naval version of the Tejas for high AOA tests?
Vivek K
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2931
Joined: 15 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Vivek K »

Is that what LSP6 (the experimental plane) be? Will it be more like the NLCA?
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

Can experts here also comment on huge actutors on the wing which some posters say are actutors cum wing fences?
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

vic wrote:Can experts here also comment on huge actutors on the wing which some posters say are actutors cum wing fences?
why would you need wing fences on the bottom ?
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

astal wrote:I was thinking two things though.

1) FBW complexity (and weight of the aircraft) increases with every control surface. At what point could we decide that the added FBW complexity was easier to tackle than high AOA testing?

2) Why don't we dedicate a naval version of the Tejas for high AOA tests?
Apart from the FBW complexity inherent in LCA, the postponement of high AoA testing is mainly due to the need for additional recovery systems in case a/c goes out of control like spin chutes and aux engine re-lighting system. These need to be integrated with the testing a/c. Postponement was also due to the associated risk involved in those testing.

Sure we can use the Naval Tejas for high AoA testing, if one is available. It helps in telling where(test points) to test carefully and where possibly we can skip or go fast. In simple terms, opening of flight envelope could be much faster if we have chosen LCA with levcon(Naval LCA) for testing. But whatever done on LCA with levcon (Naval LCA) will only act as preliminary data which need to be refined with original Tejas.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

ramana wrote:Kanson, Hormuz Mama had an article in Interavia in late 80s about the LCA and gave a lot of design details. I used to have the copy till the LCA flew when I threw it away thinking it was a done deal. Sadly was msitaken. :(
Oh! Sad indeed.
Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3065
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kanson »

If you have a tailplane why add a canard? Weird stuff. Only MKI does that and it has thrust vectoring to boot.
Only MKI? Apart from Russian stable, there is a similar aircraft from west named NF-15B(F-15 variant) and if anyone looking at that is a novice they must have mistaken that for Su-30MKI. Same type of TVC. Similar canard size, similar position. But i think that plane came before MKI.
Last edited by Kanson on 05 Nov 2010 23:45, edited 1 time in total.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Fences at the bottom of the aircraft? round? fat? near the aft? Nah ... But as always would like to know better.

If the actuators are not that big, and it is just the housing, then I am speculating that they might be carrots.

I mean look at the side view
Image

When the fin starts the wings are still growing in span. So the cross section (fuselage + wing + fin) will grow faster from this point. Instead they have used the housing to smoothen this out. Notice that the housing is at its fattest at exactly this point. The cross section area of the housing, grows to this point but starts falling beyond this point. This will mean that cross section taking the housing into account remains the same or varies much more slowly. So I have feeling that the actuator housings are actually carrots for area ruling (lowering drag).

P.S. Can somebody teach me how to resize images here. I will do it at the earliest. Thanks in advance
Last edited by Indranil on 06 Nov 2010 00:54, edited 1 time in total.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

I have one more question.

If we see the plan view, at the wing roots, next to the flaps, there is some horizontal extension which runs like a strake from the where the wing ends till the engine nozzle. What is the use of the same?
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ The above is found on every modern plane. I think it is part of the wing fuselage blending thing. Please educate this abdul better.

OT but related ... The actuators for the flaps of the Rafale must be inside the fuselage. Gives it a really nice clean look. Have to give it to the French. Rafale is a really beautiful plane, very aesthetically built. Now don't jump on me for appreciating the beauty of a warbird.

Image
Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5872
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Kartik »

Indranil, you were once talking about the moment on the aircraft due to airbrakes being deployed, right? Came across this very interesting and informative paper in NAL's repository that tackles this exact same issue, of course only to prevent such a pitching moment from acting on the aircraft. That kind of pitching moment during airbrake deployment is considered detrimental and constitutes bad flying qualities. Such as this excerpt from the Gripen B test flight by Chris Yeo back in 2000.
At full dry thrust (below the optimum speed), the aircraft comfortably sustained a 60° AOB turn. As the first FCS test at a limiting condition, the aircraft was accelerated to M0.8 and then aggressively turned, using a fairly rapid application of full back stick and full reheat. The aircraft was limited positively at 19°a/4.5g without overshooting. The final test at this height was to accelerate in full reheat to M0.95 and then close the throttle rapidly to idle while simultaneously extending the airbrakes. There were no trim changes and the aircraft remained easy to fly accurately.
and
The position of the airbrakes can adversely affect directional stability of an aircraft, even if it does have an FCS, so a 360° roll was made with the airbrakes extended. There was no noticeable change in roll rate or acceleration. Rolls were not made at the incidence limit since the FCS software used during this flight was not cleared for rapid rolling at full back stick (ie, carefree handling). This restriction will be lifted with the next software release.
ranjithnath
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 14:39

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ranjithnath »

is it just me or does the bottom part of the intake in LCA in the above pic from wiki page look quite different from the original ??
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Thank you Kartik for letting me know about the following.

I remember my foolish question:). Since then I had done some read about the positioning of the air breaks. But these material had not crossed my eyes. So thank you very much!
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

ranjithnath wrote:is it just me or does the bottom part of the intake in LCA in the above pic from wiki page look quite different from the original ??
Which pic?
ranjithnath
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 14:39

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ranjithnath »

@indra
pic u posted..i thot it was taken out of wiki page ..sorry if im wrong.but the intake seems to straighten out at the bottom whereas isnt it got a bit more curvier appearance on the tejas pics like this one here .
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Aer ... k.jpg.html
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2937
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by darshhan »

Guys , I just want to know how the LCA mk1 compares with Mirage 2000 both in terms of Air to air combat as well as for the ground strike roles.I mean Mirage 2000 was first inducted in 1980's and LCA is coming online after more than 2 decades of mirage induction.Logically LCA mk1 should be better than Mirage 2000.Is this true?

P.S. I know that LCA is a light fighter compared to Mirage 2000 so unsurprisingly LCA lags behind in payload and engine power.I am more interested in knowing how the LCA fares in terms of Avionics,Weaponry,maneuverability,Radar and other sensors when compared with Mirage 2000.
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

Ranjith the line drawing of the LCA are not current :).

The intakes for the LCA look the same from TD1 :).
neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 856
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Kartik wrote:
vic wrote:Can experts here also comment on huge actutors on the wing which some posters say are actutors cum wing fences?
why would you need wing fences on the bottom ?
And that too just ahead of the trailing edge but yeah those fairings are huge or the aircraft is real small. :mrgreen:

Cheers....
Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Austin »

Excerpts of P Rajkumar Interview on Tejas link
neerajb
BRFite
Posts: 856
Joined: 24 Jun 2008 14:18
Location: Delhi, India.

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by neerajb »

Austin wrote:Excerpts of P Rajkumar Interview on Tejas link
Thanks for sharing.

Cheers....
Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Gaur »

Austin wrote:Excerpts of P Rajkumar Interview on Tejas link
Thanks a lot Austin! :D
srai
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5866
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by srai »

Austin wrote:Excerpts of P Rajkumar Interview on Tejas link
Is it also time to review the role of the LCA in IAF, considering it will be operating next to the Su 30 MKI and MMRCA followed by the FGFA?

...
The IAF says that they will take 40 LCA Mk-1 aircraft and those aircraft are important for the simple reason that it will enable both ADA and HAL to obtain spares consumption data as to how many maintenance hours are required per flying hour. This data can be accumulated by using the LCA Mk-1 over this decade to put product support in place. The hope is that by the time the LCA Mk-2 is ready to enter service; all these problems would have been ironed out. The LCA Mk-1 could also be used to create an Operational Conversion Unit (OCU) if required to feed pilots into the system as the IAF will be inducting large numbers of aircraft over the next two decades. The LCA Mk-1 will serve the IAF extremely well for at least the next three decades.
So looks like the 40 Mk-1 will replace the 48+6 MiG-21FL of the MiG Operational Fighter Training Unit (MOFTU)! The syllabus is quite intensive:

* Semester 1 (6-months) - 30 flying training sorties and 48 fighter sorties + aircraft/airfield orientation/procedure

* Semester 2 (6-months) - 58 trainer sorties and 118 fighter sorties, amounting to 105-110 flying hours

Another 40 more of the LCA Mk-1 could be ordered given the MOFTU syllabus and large pilot training needs of the IAF with inductions of 4 new combat aircraft types in the next two decades (FGFA, MRCA, AMCA, LCA Mk-2).
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20844
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

I dont think the MK-1 will replace MOFTU to begin with. They will be used for IOC, FOC and then actual operations, based out of Sulur. The amount of capability IAF is asking for FOC level (BVR, IFR, etc) does not indicate only a training role

They could be moved to the MOFTU role, plus more added over time.
Karan M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 20844
Joined: 19 Mar 2010 00:58

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Karan M »

srai wrote:yes, 120 is low. That is why I had put that at the low minimum per airframe life over 25 years. I was going by this article on the MiG-21s getting additional 1,000 life extension (or "8 to 10 years of life", which means around 100 to 125hrs/year per airframe) and applying that to LCA, since at the minimum LCA would need to fly similar number of hours/year.
The problem is MiG-21s are reaching end of life, and Bisons are obviously those whose life, IAF would like to preserve the most, so this would be comparing apples to oranges (new aircraft versus those already on limited life extension). By any reckoning, LCA can be expected to fly more. Also, we cant see airframe life, and years expected and divide one by the other. The years figure usually takes into account other factors such as corrosion, issues with fitment, replacement of items etc, so usually both figures are given together - flight hours and years of operation
ranjithnath
BRFite
Posts: 114
Joined: 12 Jun 2010 14:39

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by ranjithnath »

thanks indra..if anybody could edit those line drawings in LCA wiki page would be of great help to newbies like me :D
Indranil
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8426
Joined: 02 Apr 2010 01:21

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by Indranil »

^^^ Plea forwarded to Gaur sir :)
vic
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2412
Joined: 19 May 2010 10:00

Re: LCA News and Discussions

Post by vic »

What changes will the choice of a new engine require for the LCA Mk-2?
With regards to the LCA Mk-2 there will be design changes and all design changes will lead to a weight penalty. The outcome of this design exercise that ADA is undertaking on the LCA Mk-2 is yet to be seen. The LCA Mk-2 will have a slighter longer fuselage and may carry more fuel as well. Will the weight go up, will they add more fuel, will the aircraft be able to offer the performance demanded by the IAF with an engine offering more thrust and higher fuel consumption are questions I cannot answer, as these details have not been made public. We could however use this opportunity to lengthen the fuselage, look at the wave drag to improve aerodynamics, put a wider chord on the wings to generate more lift, etc. However, this would then essentially result in a new aircraft but it will be a more capable aircraft and this is a good opportunity to do so. The slightly larger LCA Mk-2 can also include essential operational equipment without which the LCA Mk-2 will not be able to fulfill its operational role. These changes would lead to increase in the All Up Weight (AUW) and result in the LCA Mk-2 being different from Mk-1 by 25 per cent.

By when do you see these changes being completed and the LCA Mk-2 taking to the air with the GE-F414 engine?I will be extremely happy if the LCA Mk-2 flies by 2015 and all these changes are completed in the next five years. If they are changes in chord of wing and length of fuselage, then the FCS will also need changes. All these would again require flight testing, though not as extensive as that of the LCA Mk-1. This will require a flight test schedule that will take 2 to 2.5 years in my opinion. The LCA Mk-2 would then attain operational capability by 2018 and enter operational service with the IAF by 2020. If we can achieve this, it would be commendable.
I hope all these changes come only in LCA Mark-3. For Mark-2, we should go with fitting in the GE414 engine and minor changes in intake
Locked