Indian Army: News & Discussion

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 31 Oct 2010 12:18

X-posting from Strat forum:

Pranav wrote:

<SNIP>

The army officer who raised his voice against the PM was
Lt. General Nathu Singh Rathore,the 1st Lt. General of the Indian Army.

<SNIP>

Well, the story is not that straight forward....he was not asked to be COAS in the said meeting. Lt.General Thakur Nathu Singh was a know fierce nationalist even while in the British Indian Army and came to be thrown out of Service for his veiws more than once. He wanted to leave the BIA and join either State Forces or State Administrative Service - but was asked not to by one of the national leader as independent India would need Soldiers like him. He was a brilliant soldier - his score on Strategy Paper during enterance examination for Staff College holds to this date - and he did not need any coaching for the said enterance examination (which seems to have been a practice).

He was close to lot of freedom fighters and national leaders of the era - was particularly close to Sarojini Naidu. He had been intimated by Sardar Baldev Singh, Defence Minister, that he was the choice for first Indian COAS. But he declined on the ground that Cariappa was senior to him. The second choice was Lt.General Ranjitsinhji - who also declined on the ground of Carriapa being senior.

That is how Cariappa came to become first Indian Cheif - btw, Cariappa and Thakur Nathu Singh were from same Regiment (Rajput Regiment) and were pretty close to each other.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Nov 2010 20:59

Thats a very important tradition in Indian Army. I am glad we know how it got started. This tradition is what prevents political manipulation of the services.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 01 Nov 2010 22:42

ramana wrote:Thats a very important tradition in Indian Army. I am glad we know how it got started. This tradition is what prevents political manipulation of the services.

If you are likely to elect a completely militarily incompetent political leadership, like Adolph Hitler, that is a good thing. He had some brilliant and wise generals whom he ignored to his ultimate folly and destruction. One of the (post facto?) reasons why he was not considered for assassination after '43 was the calculation that he may be replaced by someone smarter.

If you are likely to elect an astute political leadership, like Abe Lincoln, then it is a bad thing. Many of the so-called brilliant and high achieving commanders had become faltu munnas better-suited to running railroad or building companies (which they most probably would have done - West Point was the best engineering and management school of that time), or worse - had Southern sympathies. What Lincoln wanted were able and ruthless commanders - Grant and Sherman (both from the bottom-end of their graduating class; one an alcoholic). To get to them (both languishing in very junior ranks) he trial-hired and error-fired a lot of senior generals who failed to perform. Grant, iirc, went from a colonel to supreme commander in four years ~ he earned every bit of it.

In conclusion, there is no absolutely correct formula for political-military setup. The side which first recognizes what setup works for them the best - wins.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 02 Nov 2010 19:50

Yudh Abhyas 2010 - Indian, U.S. Armies Conduct Joint Trainings

^^ Some pics to get started

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 03 Nov 2010 01:50

Op-Ed on Army Aviation Corps

Revving up the airborne force multiplier

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Nov 2010 02:25

SriSri wrote:Yudh Abhyas 2010 - Indian, U.S. Armies Conduct Joint Trainings

^^ Some pics to get started

Nice. Indian PARA and US SF, Airborne forces training together once again.

Hope we get some nice pics.

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 03 Nov 2010 09:05

Gaur wrote:
SriSri wrote:Yudh Abhyas 2010 - Indian, U.S. Armies Conduct Joint Trainings

^^ Some pics to get started
Nice. Indian PARA and US SF, Airborne forces training together once again.
Hope we get some nice pics.

Few more pics trickling in - http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4698

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 03 Nov 2010 09:28

ramana wrote:Op-Ed on Army Aviation Corps

Revving up the airborne force multiplier

From the above link:

Mid and long-term perspective plans to restructure and expand its aviation corps have been drawn up, which include raising aviation brigades at the command and corps level, with each strike formation having its own independent air assets for attack, surveillance and communications.

A special operations squadron is also stated to be on the cards for dedicated air support to the Special Forces or extraordinary missions. Next is a electronic warfare flight to exploit the electromagnetic spectrum for battlefield superiority.

sum · Post by **sum** » 03 Nov 2010 09:35

Well, this desi SOAR type squadron is in the news from past 2-3 years but seems like it is still on paper going by wordings in the article ( i.e, no meaningful steps have been taken to kick start the process).

The EW squadron is a first time hear for me..Wonder if existing platforms like Emb fitted with Desi gizmos will be used or dedicated EW crafts will be bought from Amrika?

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 03 Nov 2010 11:46

The intelligent solution

very good read.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Nov 2010 13:29

SriSri wrote: Few more pics trickling in - http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4698

Thanks a lot for the link. Will keep an eye on india-defence for sure. If you come by more pictures, please post them too. There is no such thing as too many pics (especially of PARA) for this jingo.

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 03 Nov 2010 13:55

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 03 Nov 2010 13:57

@Hiten, Thanks for posting. This will keep me busy for a while!

Hiten · Post by **Hiten** » 03 Nov 2010 14:06

Army's Pacific Command has set up a site for the same
http://www.usarpac.army.mil/ya10/

SriSri wrote:@Hiten, Thanks for posting. This will keep me busy for a while!

you are welcome

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 03 Nov 2010 14:14

The USARPAC website has been down for me all day. I'm on Airtel broadband, can anybody access that site?

-- TATA photon can't resolve the DNS either --

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 03 Nov 2010 14:36

Hiten,
Thanks a lot for the link.

SriSri,
I am having no problem with USARPAC website.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Nov 2010 23:45

When I see the CT operations in Iraq and Afghanistan I worry at the gradual eastward transmission of IED and EFP technology. Seeing the post battle pictures and confiscated materials the stuff is getting bigger and bigger. In fact they are larger and more powerful than traditional military combat weapons.

Some of the EFP pre-cursor materials are seen to be believed. Very massive. I think its prudent for Indian CT and COIN forces to get familiar with whats out there for it will soon reach India.

A good idea is to send some Engineering/Sapper forces for study tour to Iraq to get familiar.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 06 Nov 2010 00:35

ramana wrote:When I see the CT operations in Iraq and Afghanistan I worry at the gradual eastward transmission of IED and EFP technology. Seeing the post battle pictures and confiscated materials the stuff is getting bigger and bigger. In fact they are larger and more powerful than traditional military combat weapons.

Some of the EFP pre-cursor materials are seen to be believed. Very massive. I think its prudent for Indian CT and COIN forces to get familiar with whats out there for it will soon reach India.

A good idea is to send some Engineering/Sapper forces for study tour to Iraq to get familiar.

Ramana,

Iraq is different from Afghanistan, which in turn is different from India's problems.

In Iraq the IEDs were much more powerful, as the insurgents had access to military-grade explosives from what had been the world's fourth largest army. This type of situation is highly unlikely in India's context (if anybody tried to push in that quantity and quality into India, there would be an outright war and the people who tried it would rue the day that silly scheme entered their mind).

The Talibs in A'stan are more indicative of the type of trouble India is likely to face (especially since we know who sponsors and trains them). A mixture of truly improvised bombs (in general attacks) and higher quality bombs (in targetted attacks). In this case also, the first type is going to be much rarer than in A'stan - simply because India has much more dense CI/CT grids than anything ISAF has there; it is still somewhat of an issue in the Maoist context. The second type, however, is a matter of great concern as it is the favored means of dialog by India's friendly little neighbor. The most valuable repository of knowledge for dealing with it is apparently #2 in the YYY triad. Also contrary to what many believe, I think 26/11 was an aberration and that they will go back to their older tricks.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Nov 2010 00:49

Do you really think that is TSP supplied EFP stuff to Kashmir terrorists there will be war?

All I am saying is there will be plausible deniablity with uS backing them. Its better to be aware of whats happening elsewhere.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 06 Nov 2010 01:06

ramana wrote:Do you really think that is TSP supplied EFP stuff to Kashmir terrorists there will be war? All I am saying is there will be plausible deniablity with US backing them. Its better to be aware of whats happening elsewhere.

If the quantity and quality approaches 1/10th of what was available in Iraq, yes, I believe India would have to go to war. Please refer back to the Punjab Troubles and EX Brasstacks. You are underestimating how much explosives were/are present in Iraq; that kind of quantity cannot be pushed in without an invasion (in Iraq it was a paranoid sovereign power which had imported and stockpiled it for decades). It would mean war anyway you look at it.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 06 Nov 2010 01:18

I belive the TSP has successfully convinced the US that any conflict in Indian sub-continent in which they are invovled will go nuclear. And hence they will do their worst and not have to pay a price for it.

All I am saying is do not think its all or nothing. There is a sub-convnetional war which will go on with out triggering escalation.

The stone throwing is a new learned techniques from Palestine adherents. We should expect other things also.

The ingredients are already there : RDX for TSP and nothing that India can do except publicise it
Electronic timers etc again nothing can be done. They even found PRC rockets and not much

So its a matter of when and not if!

Better be ready to know what makes them work and start the counter measures.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Nov 2010 05:32

For what it is worth, "cold start" seems to be THE issue. An article in todays NYT deals with this topic. The leaders in the US military has bought this idea that "cold start" is a threat to Pakistan and it's attendent issues - mainly that PA cannot spare troops for the other border.

Why the same leaders are unable to deal with the ISI relationship with the Taliban and thus the threat to the US remains to be a topic of discussion.

Whatever the case, there seems to be two camps (as in the case of China too). The problem India faces is that the US military supports the Pakistani position that India is the problem in the Af-Pak policy.

Obama Is Not Likely to Push India Hard on Pakistan

I feel that one of the major problems is that India is unable to articulate its position too well. PR is very poor.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 06 Nov 2010 07:36

Indian-born U.S. Army Soldiers bridge culture gap during Yudh Abhyas 2010

http://www.usarpac.army.mil/ya10/fullst ... 1104q&id=0

The sisters and their family left India in 2001 because of religious conflict in their home village and they haven’t returned since, so the experience during the exercise has been refreshing and educational for them, they said.

What happened in 2001?

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Nov 2010 08:01

May be one of those Sikh and Kashmiri Hindus leaving Kashmir because of Islamic fundamentalists and the Paki proxy war on Indians.
Time to repeal article 370

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 06 Nov 2010 08:29

NRao wrote:For what it is worth, "cold start" seems to be THE issue. An article in todays NYT deals with this topic. The leaders in the US military has bought this idea that "cold start" is a threat to Pakistan and it's attendent issues - mainly that PA cannot spare troops for the other border.
....
I feel that one of the major problems is that India is unable to articulate its position too well. PR is very poor.

Why not throw the dog a bone? Make a big show of withdrawing the mythical "Cold Start".

Meanwhile, put 10,000 new land-attack Brahmos Block-II missiles at appropriate locations.

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 06 Nov 2010 18:21

ramana wrote:I belive the TSP has successfully convinced the US that any conflict in Indian sub-continent in which they are invovled will go nuclear. And hence they will do their worst and not have to pay a price for it. All I am saying is do not think its all or nothing. There is a sub-convnetional war which will go on with out triggering escalation.

The stone throwing is a new learned techniques from Palestine adherents. We should expect other things also. The ingredients are already there : RDX for TSP and nothing that India can do except publicise it. Electronic timers etc again nothing can be done. They even found PRC rockets and not much. So its a matter of when and not if! Better be ready to know what makes them work and start the counter measures.

ramana,

Pak has convinced the US of no such thing: It is the US which is projecting onto Pakistan the way the US would think (that is, what to do when numerically superior Soviet forces are about to overrun NATO forces). Coincidentally their projection is generally correct, but not completely correct - Americans know and acknowledge that, for some reason Indians simply seem to be oblivious to this nuance.

Of course, I agree that the sub-conventional conflict will continue. My point was that it cannot reach a fraction of the Iraqi insurgency without first going conventional (and at that point of time you are on a completely different trajectory).

Before you consider if/when, you have to consider can/cannot. The Paks can move in a few hundred kilos of explosives undetected and cause a lot of carnage; the Paks cannot move in tons of explosives (a small fraction of Iraq) without triggering a war (which totally defeats their purpose for the terror campaign). Precautions must be taken accordingly. When you have only a limited resource base, unlike other two YYs, you have to prioritize realistically.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Nov 2010 18:58

Nat Geo Army show
Brave dies when cowards rule

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 06 Nov 2010 19:00

There are many anti-India sites operated by these thugs. The GOI has not even banned it. Not only that nowadays it seems from stone throwing propoganda they have shifted to show how Indian soldiers are hit. More like the videos that come out from Afghanistan against the west. What's the GOI doing against these. They must have quietly banned all such sites.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Nov 2010 11:04

Army Chief Interview

http://ibnlive.in.com/videos/134430/as- ... chief.html

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 07 Nov 2010 15:35

Enemy of the Force

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 07 Nov 2010 15:51

X-Post

UnSure of China's Motives, But 1962 Repeat Not Possible : Army Chief General V K Singh

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 08 Nov 2010 07:38

Son joins his martyr father’s regiment today

Taking the family tradition of joining armed forces ahead, this second-generation braveheart son of a Kargil martyr is all set to follow in the footsteps of his father. The young boy will don the olive green and join the Sikh Regimental Centre, Ramgarh Cantt, Jharkhand, tomorrow.

Bakhtawar Singh (21), son of Kargil martyr Naib Subedar Ravail Singh, will join the prestigious 8 Sikh Regiment as a sepoy. His father served in this regiment when he died during Operation Vijay in Kargil. He was awarded the Sena Medal posthumously.

...
...
The family celebrated their son’s recruitment in the Army as a grand affair along with the Divali celebrations in Jammu. Second among the three brothers, Bakhtawar nurtured the dream of joining the Army since he was a child. “I was studying in Class II at Pathankot when my father was killed during the Kargil war. The memories of that day still make me feel cry. But my father’s regiment stood with us in our thick and thin and ensured that we don’t face any difficulty ever”, he added.

...
this woman, however, said, “I faced the worst fear of my life when my husband died in the Kargil war. After that I developed a sense of belonging to the Army. Probably nothing can match the joy of see-ing a son as a ‘fauji’.” The Sikh Regimental Centre authorities have decided to impart free training and coaching to Bakhtawar to join the Army as a commissioned officer.
...

Luit · Post by **Luit** » 08 Nov 2010 15:20

From The Assam Tribune.
'71 war memorial in tripura

Bangla war memorial park being set up in Tripura

AGARTALA, Nov 7 – A verdant 20 hectare land dotted by seven hillocks and a serpentine lake will house a memorial and museum to commemorate Indian soldiers and Bangladeshi civilians who laid down their lives for liberation of Bangladesh in 1971.

The park being built by Tripura Government at Chottakhola, a village in South Tripura district, about 130 km from here, will have a statue of the architect of Bangladesh’s independence Sheikh Mujibur Rehman.

A museum is also being constructed where arms and ammunition used in the Liberation War, many old photographs, literature and newspapers of those days would be preserved.

“The Department of Forest is building the park in memory of those who sacrificed their lives to liberate Bangladesh. The lush green park is spread over 20 hectares of land with seven hillocks and a serpentine lake,” Tripura Forest Minister Jiten Chowdhury said.

He said a 52-feet high tower was also being build in the park from where parts of Noakhali and Feni districts of Bangladesh could be seen.

Chowdhury, also the Minister for Industries and Commerce, said Bangladesh Foreign Minister Dipu Mani will lay the foundation stone of the museum and the park on November 10 and the total cost of the project is estimated to be Rs 2.3 crore.

Chottakhola was one of the base camps of the Mukti Joddhas (Bangladeshi freedom fighters) from where they launched bush war against Pakistani troops in Noakhali, Feni and parts of Comilla districts.

Satyabrata Chakraborty, a veteran journalist who covered the Liberation War in 1971 for a leading daily, said Tripura was the ‘war headquarters’ of Bangladesh liberation and had sheltered more than 1.5 million refugees from the then East Pakistan and this number was more than than the population of the State.

The first Bangladesh Government in exile was formed in Agartala and they also set up Bangladesh Radio based here, recalled Chakraborty.

Tripura has 856 km of border with Bangladesh, which constitutes 85 per cent of the total border of the State.

“During the Liberation War, the excitement was tremendous. Also with some youths, I had joined Mukti Fauz, obtained a short military training and fought against Pakistani army in Comilla sector”, reminisced former Deputy Speaker of Tripura Assembly and CPI-M leader, Subal Rudra.

The Forest Minister said the park is just on the border and near Trishna Wildlife sanctuary. “We expect that it would be a new address for the tourists from our country as well as of Bangladesh”. – PTI

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 08 Nov 2010 20:54

Yesterday in TOI:

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 08 Nov 2010 21:11

^^^One should really read the history of the Battle of Shalateng and Battle of Jhangar to understand the role played by the Paras in Kashmir War.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 09 Nov 2010 05:55

LP Sens book is available via google. "Slender was the thread"

SriSri · Post by **SriSri** » 09 Nov 2010 17:39

India, Saudi Arabia to Hold Military Exercises in March 2011; India to Construct Mountain Warfare School in Saudi Arabia

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Nov 2010 17:45

Karan M wrote:LP Sens book is available via google. "Slender was the thread"

yes, was reading it yesterday after seeing rohitvats' message - quite a good read, very much in the style of 40's british military writers, tales of derring do and steady on chaps!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 09 Nov 2010 18:47

SriSri wrote:India, Saudi Arabia to Hold Military Exercises in March 2011; India to Construct Mountain Warfare School in Saudi Arabia

I do not understand. Why would India want to construct Mountain Warfare School for Saudi Arabia?

Lalmohan · Post by **Lalmohan** » 09 Nov 2010 19:05

Gaur wrote:
SriSri wrote:India, Saudi Arabia to Hold Military Exercises in March 2011; India to Construct Mountain Warfare School in Saudi Arabia
I do not understand. Why would India want to construct Mountain Warfare School for Saudi Arabia?

the saudi-yemeni border badlands are very mountainous, the saudis have been getting their musharrafs kicked by the al-q's up in the hills for the past few years. all that fancy western equipment only goes so far...