People's Republic of China Nov 22, 2009

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 08 Nov 2010 10:14

shiv wrote:Tony Montana is here for timepass. He is a "Non resident Chinese" who lives in the west.

I really don't think these guys can do timepass like we Indians have the luxury of doing, even if they are "non resident". The drones came out of the woodwork just as Obama was heading to India with 300 CEOs representing businesses that deal in everything from textbooks to advanced weapons systems, all clamoring for a "strategic partnership". The plain fact is the Chinese are worried and well they should be--some of these CEOs in an unguarded moment let slip that American businesses don't like uncertainty (which is why they have gravitated to dictatorial countries in the past) but now see far more uncertainty in China than in India. Why? Because they don't know how China will handle the unrest that will come when many export-oriented factories shut their doors as will almost certainly happen. Their relative certainty about India on the other hand should say volumes. Unkil knows everything.

Everyone who matters understands that an irreversible convergence is under way driven by both circumstance and mutual convenience but is careful about what they say in public. So the bombastic talk and smartass bravado displayed by the lower-level flunkeys is understandable. That's what nervous people do. Their bosses are a lot more circumspect lately if you've noticed.

naren · Post by **naren** » 08 Nov 2010 12:20

shiv wrote:
Pranav wrote: Well, you could start by giving your rationalization for Chinese policy of proxy terrorism from behind a nuclear shield. You have not addressed this so far.
Actually he has. In an oblique and indirect way. As long as the Chinese people are having a good time what the CPC does is of little concern to them.

The take home lesson for me in that is that you cannot get the Chinese to answer for the CPC as long as the people are kept happy by the CPC. So if you want to spoil the CPC's party you have to do more drastic things. Making Chinese people unhappy is one method of causing worry to the CPC. How to do that is a different issue.

We are "told" that Chinese people are happy, despite the 100,000 demonstrations every year, 400 million babies drowned to death, 92% (IIRC) of millionaires being the kids of CPC members, very strict migration policies, active moderation of the internet and media - even going to the level of censoring Wen's own statements ! Keep up your good work Tony Montana & co. We believe you onree.

naren · Post by **naren** » 08 Nov 2010 12:41

TonyMontana wrote:^^
Indians posting on PakistaniDefence. Blacks posting on StormFront. Chinese posting on BRF.
The reactions are almost identical. And in hind sight, predictable. Hate and prejudice can be rationalised very easily.

When I first started posting, believe it or not, I felt tremendous sympathy and goodwill towards Indians. Maybe it's my luck that I never met a Indian as nationalistic as some posters are on BRF, in real life. But my attitude has changed somewhat.

A Persia saying goes:" Arabs at your feet, or Arabs at your throat." I guess this applies to the Indians too. Indeed. It applies to everybody.

I thank the Lord Jesus Christ and Buddha everyday, that so far, as of today, China is higher on the pecking order then India. I'm indeed thankful, that Chinese leaders, dispite of all the nasty things they've done, has the foresight to see that India would become a threat if not effectively checked and managed.

The conflict, that is the right word, between India and China today are not new. Empires and States has been doing this for a long time now. And it heartens me that even the most Jingoest of Indians still need China to fark up before India could get anywhere. All the talks of: The Chinese economy will collapse, so we can..so they will be... There will be uprisings in China, then we can...that allows us...The Pakistanis will nuke India, we can then...

The ball is never in India's court. There is never talks of: India need to do this and this and this, so if China continues on her present course of growth, India will....India can.... Maybe the rational one already knew that unless the Chinese farks up themselves, like the rabbit and the turtle, the turtle already lost the race.

But I ramble.

Yes you are right, you ramble. If you have taken the time to read without your preconceived notions, you will find all range of opinions. If that is not true, you wouldnt be on this forum anymore.

I personally dont give two sheets if China becomes supah powah or pauper or whatever. All that matters is what impact each scenario is going to have on India. If I may say so, that is the majority viewpoint of most BRFites and even most Indians I have encountered in real life. In India, people can aspire for bigger things and have successful career. Nobody gives a sheet if China "wins" whatever mythical race or not. (may be some jingo high school kids who do it for the lulz in forums). In India, there is no need to suck up to some central commie party & have to constantly believe in and sell the "awesomeness" of the administration. People could just work hard and improve their lives.

(Seriously, most Indians I know dont get what the "race" is, Chinese so fondly cling on to.)

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Nov 2010 13:21

Burma-China "bum-chumming".

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/8116199 ... nents.html

Burma uses Chinese investment to harass opponents
Chinese investment in Burma has been harnessed by the regime to consolidate control of swathes of territory controlled by rebel ethnic groups on its northern and eastern borders.

The victims claim to have been forced out by a government policy known as "Damming at Gunpoint".

Activists from the Burma Rivers Network claim construction is under way on forty dams on rivers that flow between Burma and China and Thailand. The majority are being built as joint ventures between the Burmese military and Chinese construction companies and government troops have been deployed to remove local inhabitants from the flood basins.

"The government soldiers started burning the village and then, with machine guns, opened fire. They were shooting everywhere and it was the old and the children who were killed. The rest of us ran away", says Boe Reh, a refugee in his 50s.

His wife, Htay Moe, takes up the story "We had to keep moving. They killed anyone who stopped. Some women were so pregnant that they could barely walk and so they got stones and beat their stomachs to kill their babies, to miscarry so that they could run."

From Mae Hong Son, I crossed into Burma illegally, where guerrillas from the rebel Karenni army face the Burmese military along front lines.

Major General Aung Myat, the Karen commander, said Chinese support was vital to the Burmese operations. "They've brought more army units in, they've moved the villagers out, they've laid landmines everywhere and they've brought in Chinese technicians to help them build the dams", he said.

From the junta´s point of view, it is a cunning plan. They have been dealing with uprisings among Burma's recalcitrant ethnic people for half a century. By flooding the areas where villages support the rebel armies, they get rid of the insurgents' supply lines and make the money they need to keep in power by selling hydroelectricity to Thailand and China.

naren · Post by **naren** » 08 Nov 2010 13:24

x-post from HHDL future prez thread
--

Many nations top leadership met with the Dalai Lama, future president of India, despite being subjected to an 8.1 percent decrease in exports to China for roughly two years after the meeting

Nov. 4 – A recent study conducted by the University of Gottingen found that nations whose top leadership met with the Dalai Lama were subject to an 8.1 percent decrease in exports to China for roughly two years after the meeting.

The study, undertaken by Andreas Fuchs and Nils-Hendrik Klann of the department of economics, attempts to understand the effects of meeting with the Dalai Lama in empirical terms and proposes three related theses: first, meeting with the Dalai Lama impacts trade with China in a negative way; second, such an effect is amplified by the rank of the foreign dignitary with whom the Dalai Lama is meeting; third, that the effect disappears over time as bilateral relations between China and partner countries recover.

Link to the research paper: Paying a Visit: The Dalai Lama Effect on International Trade

October 19, 2010

Center for European Governance and Economic Development Research Paper No. 113

Abstract:
The Chinese government frequently threatens that meetings between its trading partners’ officials and the Dalai Lama will be met with animosity and ultimately harm trade ties with China. We run a gravity model of exports to China from 159 partner countries between 1991 and 2008 to test to which extent bilateral tensions affect trade with autocratic China. In order to account for the potential endogeneity of meetings with the Dalai Lama, the number of Tibet Support Groups and the travel pattern of the Tibetan leader are used as instruments. Our empirical results support the idea that countries officially receiving the Dalai Lama at the highest political level are punished through a reduction of their exports to China. However, this ‘Dalai Lama Effect’ is only observed for the Hu Jintao era and not for earlier periods. Furthermore, we find that this effect is mainly driven by reduced exports of machinery and transport equipment and that it disappears two years after a meeting took place.

haha, see the clout of our future brejident, commie biatches

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 08 Nov 2010 13:56

naren wrote: We are "told" that Chinese people are happy,

Running away from happiness

Canadian authorities are investigating an "unbelievable" incident in which a passenger boarded an Air Canada flight disguised as an elderly man, according to a confidential alert obtained by CNN.

The incident occurred on October 29 on Air Canada flight AC018 to Vancouver originating in Hong Kong. An intelligence alert from the Canada Border Services Agency describes the incident as an "unbelievable case of concealment."

"Information was received from Air Canada Corporate Security regarding a possible imposter on a flight originating from Hong Kong," the alert says. "The passenger in question was observed at the beginning of the flight to be an elderly Caucasian male who appeared to have young looking hands. During the flight the subject attended the washroom and emerged an Asian looking male that appeared to be in his early 20s."

After landing in Canada, Border Services Officers (BSOs) escorted the man off the plane where he "proceeded to make a claim for refugee protection," the alert says.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2010 14:02

Shiv,

Looking at the blindfolded man. He looks kind of feminin. Now what could be the reason for that? Also is this the reason why the TFTAs to our west admire the people from our west.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 08 Nov 2010 19:54

TonyMontana ji,
I had no intention of personally threatening you. All I said was that it was possible for some of us to get to know what was happening, even from within the communist party side. Yes it is perhaps also possible to check out if someone has been involved with any of the mass fronts or has connections to them. If you are out in west and still scared of criticizing or accepting criticism of the party or the PLA, then it shows that you have either voluntary affiliations or have reasons to fear any such criticism being exposed to party or Chinese authorities. Chinese abroad report on each other or are forced to report on each other. But on the web and BRF connecting from the west you are practically anonymous, unless you are acting on behalf of them or you have reasons to suspect that your identity could be known to your authorities. Either way, that does not then represent an "authentic Chinese voice".

Frankly I do know of many others, and whose stories do check out, and those stories picture a very different transition now taking place in China. Surprisingly (not for me), some of the biggest shocks will come from inside the party actually, and this divergence between what you tried to represent and what I know as alternate realities - made me suspect your true affiliations - thats all.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 08 Nov 2010 23:38

brihaspati wrote:TonyMontana ji,
I had no intention of personally threatening you. . Yes it is perhaps also possible to check out if someone has been involved with any of the mass fronts or has connections to them.

This is hilarious.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Nov 2010 06:29

brihaspati wrote: China is a police state, without any popular or democratic representation, that his country's legal system is a medieval barbarism and a sham, that his country's citizens are subject to movement and residence controls like Nazi Germany, that all his country's papers and media are muzzled bull mastiffs chained and prodded by the government, that prostitution is increasing, that people get evicted, and that common people have no means of redress or showing dissent. His country has no real health care system, and people cannot manage the fees required for complicated treatments.

Totally unrelated to this thread and in a private discussion I heard a little birdie describing Lhasa after a visit that has taken place sometime in the last 2 years. This person saw machine-gun toting guards every 100 meters or so. The locals expressed open hatred for the Han and made sure they gave concessions to visiting natives of nations whom they believe have sheltered their people. The words used, unprovoked by me, were "The sadness in the eyes of Tibetans is to be seen to be believed"

Tony Montanajis cheerful and nonchalant way of "not giving a fark" is obviously only one side of the story. You cannot expect him to be objective and relate the other side. This is an exact example of the old and cliched joke: The American and the Chinese were arguing. The American says "In my country I can openly criticize my government". The Chinese replies, "So what? In my country I can openly criticize your government too" Replace America with India and the meaning is still not lost.

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 09 Nov 2010 06:52

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... cy/?page=1

Every 2.4 seconds, a woman in China undergoes a forced abortion because of the communist nation's one-child policy, totaling about 35,000 abortions a day, a panel of four experts said Tuesday.

Well, if they can do this to their own hans, then it is anybody's guess what would happen to others. It is one social experimentation, that is bound to yield very complex and undesirable results for the world/humanity. Tibetians know the monster upclose, but excercise utmost restraint, because PRC would have no compunction in mowing them down. Seriously, can PRC get along with anyone else, without plotting to kill them? Unlikely, they are going to follow the islamists route of more piousness. They have already started by their one child policy, as to who is more pious in following the "red book".

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 09 Nov 2010 09:56

JwalaMukhi wrote:http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/201 ... cy/?page=1
Every 2.4 seconds, a woman in China undergoes a forced abortion because of the communist nation's one-child policy, totaling about 35,000 abortions a day, a panel of four experts said Tuesday.
Well, if they can do this to their own hans, then it is anybody's guess what would happen to others. It is one social experimentation, that is bound to yield very complex and undesirable results for the world/humanity. Tibetians know the monster upclose, but excercise utmost restraint, because PRC would have no compunction in mowing them down. Seriously, can PRC get along with anyone else, without plotting to kill them? Unlikely, they are going to follow the islamists route of more piousness. They have already started by their one child policy, as to who is more pious in following the "red book".

Jwalamukhi - what is hidden information in China is that abortions inevitably lead to a predictable percentage of complications in the mother who undergoes abortion. There is a possibility of death, which will never be reported. In addition there are complications like infections leading to infertility.

Direct information from China will never be obtained because that is a country that hid the deaths caused by avian flu and the issue was addressed after a rub between Hu and Wen Jiaobao. Imagine fight between the PM and President in India to decide whether to reveal the occurrence of say Cholera after a flood?

But when you have widespread abortions and cover up the deaths, you will still be left with infertility. All accounts point to a vast increase in infertility clinics in China. Internet accounts of abortions for expatriates give an account of what it is like in China
How to get an abortion in China

Some quotes:

At most hospitals in China abortions are big business and you’ll find that the OBGYN of almost all hospitals are filled with girls and women of all ages who have come to get an abortion. In fact, even if your pregnancy is wanted you will probably be asked when you first arrive for a prenatal checkup whether or not you’re there for a termination.

Be sure that if you decide to go through with the procedure you have a good emotional support system – have someone who can go with you to the hospital, arrange transportation for you after the procedure (you won’t feel like getting on a bus) and make sure you’re ok in the days that follow. Since abortion is fairly commonplace in China, expect Chinese friends and the Chinese staff at the hospital to have a fairly cavalier attitude towards your abortion, and realize that they might not really understand the complex emotions you might be feeling. Take good care of yourself, monitoring your physical and emotional well being is important in the days that follow a termination.

Nobody in China will ever measure or tell the outside world of the emotional disturbance to family and/or the woman herself caused by abortion followed by death or permanent disability. We can only imagine it and make a rough assessment of what it might be like based on experiences in other countries. Oh it is sure to be present. But it is hidden behind a "Oh we Chinese don't give a fark As long as we are making money"

My BS meter blows up when I hear that.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Nov 2010 10:21

40 million Chinese men without women and 40 million Chinese women now emotionally scarred and infertile!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Nov 2010 12:51

Camern is now in CHina on a path-breaking mission,to garner trade for the UK from the PRC,much in the same manner that Obama has tried to do (successfully) in India.It will be very inbteresting to see how the Chinese lay down their demands during Cameron's visit,in comparison with how India enunciated its interests during the Mess-iah's visit!

David Cameron in China: the entourage
Dozens of senior business leaders are accompanying David Cameron to China. They include Stefano Pessina, the chairman of Alliance Boots, Richard Lambert, the director of the CBI and Lord Powell, a former key adviser to Baroness Thatcher.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... urage.html

kmkraoind · Post by **kmkraoind** » 09 Nov 2010 17:15

China may attack India anytime soon: Mulayam

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 09 Nov 2010 17:36

China Ready for Consultation with India Over UNSC Reform

China Ready for Consultation with India Over UNSC Reform
PTI
Nov 9, 2010

BEIJING: Sounding positive to US President Barack Obama's endorsement of India's bid for permanent seat in the UNSC, China today said it understands New Delhi's "aspirations" to play a bigger role in the UN and is ready for consultations with it over reform of the world body.

"China values India's status in the international affairs and understands India's aspirations to play a greater role in the United Nations and is ready to keep contact and consultations with India and other member states on the issues of Security Council reform," Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesman, Hong Lei said during a media briefing.

"China supports reasonable and necessary reform of the UN Security Council and will maintain priority to giving more representation to developing countries at UNSC so that they can play bigger role in Security Council," Hong said.

He said China wants democratic and patient consultations over the issue.

"We hope all parties should continue to have democratic and patient consultations so as to reach a package of consensus on reform related issues so that negations will become a process to narrow differences, safeguard unity and realise a win-win scenario," he said.

Asked about Obama's assertion that US would also support India's membership for Nuclear Suppliers' Group (NSG), Missile Technology Control Regime, the Australian Group and the Wassenaar Arrangement, Hong said all countries should respect their international obligation of non-proliferation.

"China believes that countries under the precondition of respecting the international obligation of non proliferation have the right to make peaceful use of nuclear energy and conduct international cooperation in this field. Meanwhile it should safeguard the integrity and effectiveness of the international non proliferation regime," he said.

"We hope that cooperation between relevant countries could contribute to regional peace stability and development."

The issue of India's permanent membership to the UNSC has always figured high in the talks between Indian and Chinese leaders.

The issue was raised during President Pratibha Patil's visit to Beijing this year as well as Foreign minister S M Krishna's visit earlier.

"China understands India's aspirations at the UN" was the standard phrase it came up with during the talks sounding cautious and ambivalent on the complex UNSC reform process.

China has also voted for India's candidature to the non-permanent seat at the UNSC.

Obama's endorsement of India's membership leaves only China to take a stand on the issue as the other four of the five permanent members — US, Russia, Britain and France — have already conveyed their support for New Delhi's elevation to the top organ of the world body.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 09 Nov 2010 17:42

Juggi G wrote:China Ready for Consultation with India Over UNSC Reform

Nothing wrong with having tea with the Chinese, but we should wear a bullet proof vest and a helmet to the tea party and have all our guns loaded.

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 09 Nov 2010 18:02

On death penalty to Tariq Aziz

http://www.hindu.com/2010/11/09/stories ... 401200.htm

On the entire European continent, only Belarus retains capital punishment; globally, 95 states have abolished it. Among the 58 countries that retain it, Russia's constitutional court has placed an indefinite moratorium on implementation; China's Supreme People's Court has ruled that it must be used only in extreme cases;

Only, the so-called extreme cases happen ten times a day or more in the case of the paymasters of our Nandigram rapist goons and Stalinist traitors..

wig · Post by **wig** » 10 Nov 2010 09:47

China: Activist Loses Child, Sent to Prison
BEIJING) — A Chinese man who organized a support group for parents of children sickened in one of the country's worst food safety scandals was found guilty of inciting social disorder and sentenced Wednesday to 2 1/2 years in prison, his lawyer said.

Zhao Lianhai had pushed for greater official accountability and compensation for victims and their families after the 2008 scandal that shocked China. His sentence appeared particularly severe because the case related to a public safety incident that the embarrassed leadership had pledged to tackle in a bid to restore consumer confidence
We'd expected it to be much less than that. It is such a harsh sentence," lawyer Li Fangping said. "The crimes he was accused of were nothing more than what regular citizens would do to defend their rights."

Zhao vowed to appeal and began a hunger strike to protest the verdict, Li said.

Six children died and nearly 300,000 were sickened by baby formula tainted with melamine, which can cause kidney stones and kidney failure. The industrial chemical, used in the manufacture of plastics and fertilizer, was added to watered-down milk to increase profits and fool inspectors testing for protein
His sentence appears to be part of a trend of growing intolerance for government critics and independent social activists. Environmentalists, AIDS activists and lawyers who took on sensitive cases have disappeared, been locked up, or otherwise harassed, while this year's Nobel Peace Prize recipient, dissident writer Liu Xiaobo, is serving an 11-year prison sentence for subversion handed down after he co-authored a call for widespread reform of the authoritarian, one-party political
Li said prosecutors leveled three charges against Zhao: That he organized a gathering of a dozen parents of sick children at a restaurant, held a paper sign in front of a court and factory involved in the scandal as a protest, and gave media interviews in a public place.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 29,00.html

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 13 Nov 2010 17:22

India should say no to this visit of Chinese PM as the policy of China to combine India and pakistan at par. So he is planning a visit of Pakistan and then to India. If Wen wants to come to India let him come straight and not via somewhere! We do not want such trips to get our influence through someone else! It is like Indian PM visiting first Taiwan and then to China! It is also essential for India to issue a separate passport to Tibetians similar to what Chinese are doing! Peace can come not by threat nor at the tip of the GUn. Terrorism of Pakistan is clearly supported by Chinese red army to check India! Unless there is a change of attitude in terms of threat to this region or any regions around China and a need to relook at Tibet and Chinese relationship to her neighbours we will be having another coldwar strategy here in Asia.

** Deleted **

Raghavendra · Post by **Raghavendra** » 13 Nov 2010 18:21

^flirting with danger

mod say dont post news from suspicious news sites

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 91#p846091

Gerard wrote:The moderators have looked at these links and we find both sites quite suspicious.

Both the "Sri Lankan Guardian" and the "Asian Human Rights Commission" are to be considered haram on the forum. Please don't post links to their stuff here.

Thank you for your cooperation.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 13 Nov 2010 19:30

A change of mood before Wen arrives
Reshma Patil
Beijing, November 12, 2010
http://www.hindustantimes.com/A-change- ... 25042.aspx

Chinese Premier Wen Jiabao to visit Pakistan next month
http://app.com.pk/en_/index.php?option= ... 1&Itemid=1

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 14 Nov 2010 23:50

'Dalai Lama Effect' shows on exports

Countries whose top leadership meet with the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled spiritual leader, lose on average 8. 1 per cent in exports to China

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 Nov 2010 00:05

and yet Indo-China trade continues to Boom.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 15 Nov 2010 00:46

mostly a one way trade

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Nov 2010 07:32

India tells China: Kashmir is to us what Tibet & Taiwan are to you

Drawing a dramatic parallel between the territorial red lines of both countries, India on Sunday told China that just as New Delhi had been sensitive to its concerns over the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan, Beijing too should be mindful of Indian sensitivities on Jammu and Kashmir.

The comparison – which is intended to drive home the depth of Indian concerns over recent Chinese attempts to question the country's sovereignty in Kashmir — was made by External Affairs Minister S.M. Krishna in his meeting with China's Foreign Minister Yang Jiechi on the sidelines of the Russia-India-China trilateral meeting here.

This is the first time India has drawn this parallel directly, Indian officials told The Hindu.

Briefing reporters about the meeting, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao said the two Ministers reviewed the state of bilateral relations, which Mr. Yang described as being in “very good shape.” As India-China relations grew, Mr. Krishna said, there was a need for both sides to be sensitive to each other's core concerns. “In that context,” said Ms. Rao, “[the External Affairs Minister] spoke of Jammu and Kashmir and expressed the hope that China would be sensitive to J&K just as we have been to the Tibet Autonomous Region and Taiwan.”

According to Ms. Rao, Mr. Yang said in response that China always believed the problem of Jammu and Kashmir could only be resolved through dialogue and negotiations between India and Pakistan and that there has been no change in its policy.

The Chinese Minister also said Beijing wanted to expand the political content of the relationship between the two countries. “He said both countries should see each other's growth as an opportunity and not a challenge.”

On the question of a permanent seat for India on a reformed UN Security Council – a question Mr. Krishna raised in a general way without reference to President Barack Obama's recent announcement – Mr. Yang said he acknowledged there had been a fundamental change in the international situation and that consultations were needed on the question of UN reform. He added that China was willing to continue and increase its consultations with India and others on this question, a stand Ms. Rao described as “incrementally speaking, a positive development.” But she quickly added: “To say that they have given full-scale endorsement would be inaccurate.”

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 15 Nov 2010 07:59

Cannot help but admire the stupendous knowledge and foresight of any leader who compares Taiwan, Tibet with "Kashmir"! Taiwan was recognized as an independent country - with a solid legal continuity from "nationalist" China days, where the PRC was an illegal entity that won power by military victories only, and the notoriously vague "doctrine of necessity" perhaps paved its recognition as an independent country.

Tibet was an independent territory since the fall of the empire. Tibet has been militarily occupied by mainland Chinese government in the 50's which was itself not legally constituted by any prevailing norms of transfer of power or transition of regimes.

Equating these with "Kashmir" is a magnificent self-goal. Tactically, this means many lines of argument that can be used by enemies of India, I don't even want to write about publicly!

Can anyone request him to keep his mouth closed as far as possible?

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 15 Nov 2010 11:36

brihaspati wrote:Cannot help but admire the stupendous knowledge and foresight of any leader who compares Taiwan, Tibet with "Kashmir"!

Absolutely. It is so disgusting to see such comparisons.

negi · Post by **negi** » 15 Nov 2010 11:46

Does this mean that GoI has formally relinquished all its claims on Tibet ? Not that I have any objections to it but it could have been done without bringing in Kashmir which is strictly a Indo-Pak affair.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 15 Nov 2010 11:57

SSridhar wrote:
brihaspati wrote:Cannot help but admire the stupendous knowledge and foresight of any leader who compares Taiwan, Tibet with "Kashmir"!
Absolutely. It is so disgusting to see such comparisons.

I'm not certain it was meant to be interpreted like that. It was perhaps more of a soft warning to the Chinese that if they continue to side by TSP on Kashmir then India may well start engaging with Taiwan more and be more open regarding Tibet (something which irritates China no end.) . We are merely indicating that we are not afraid to use the leaverage we have over the Chinese in this regard.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Nov 2010 12:02

Playing devil's advocate-

Krishna was trying to make the point that just as India has so far been mindful of China's core concerns (Taiwan and Tibet), China should reciprocate with India's, ie Kashmir. That is a different proposition from actually equating the legitimacy of the claims in these regions.

India needed to raise the issue of Taiwan and Tibet at this point - and the least hostile way of bringing it up was to say that this is in response to China's non-cooperation on Kashmir. In what other manner could he have phrased his statement?

My take is that Krishna should also have included Arunachal along with Kashmir. So essentially, India's stance on Tibet and Taiwan should be linked to China's stance on Kashmir and Arunachal.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2010 13:27

Rank stupid comparing Tibet, Taiwan and Kashmir. The buffoon must be smugly grinning thinking he's made a grand statement that no one's even thought off and got the Chinese by the proverbial balls. Completely disgusting simply for the reason this is Untruth he is spreading. These people should just simply stick to the truth and not try anything 'Chanakyan'. Most strategic blunders have been repeatedly made by politicians who think they are shrewd, play real politik, Chanakyan, idealist. It's simpler and better to just stick to this nations standard motto: Satyameva Jayate. The truth alone will triumph, believe it and stick to it like a leech. We are better off with that than such repulsive self goals being scored repetitively by mandarins in the PMO and South block.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2010 13:36

Arjun, no. This is not a game of you scratch my back and i scratch yours. Even if China supports India on Kashmir, Tibet is still an issue and should be an issue. Taiwan is independent for all practical purposes. Tibet has been independent throughout history except a brief period when it paid tribute and was under the Manchu's. The 1960 UN resolution asking China to conduct a plebiscite in Tibet has never been followed. Tibetan culture is being squashed and finished with Han influx. It's only the Psec who does not hurt by Tibet's demise and can equate it to Kashmir. India would have implemented UN resolutions on Kashmir too if Pakistan had fulfilled the initial conditions mandated by the resolutions and vacated it's tribals and soldiers from POK. This comparison shows we the people of India are not getting savvy, truthful, honest, well read persons to represent our nation. This is apathy of the highest level. Treason really of the worst kind.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Nov 2010 14:28

But is India prepared to go to war over Tibet? If the answer is no, then isn't the Tibet card like a cheque that can never be encashed - not of much practical use? It might then make more sense to trade this card for something that would bear practical benefits.

A tradeoff I would personally be happy with is-

1. China's support for Pakistan to cease, in return for India's understanding of China's core concerns wrt Taiwan and Vietnam
2. India acquiescing on Tibet in return for all border disputes in Kashmir and Arunachal to be settled as per India's understanding of border (Chinese portion of J&K also to be returned).

Whether the Chinese would agree is another matter, and depends on India's leverage and ability to back up intent with deeds.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2010 15:14

Arjun ji, India is not prepared to go to war for POK also. Tibet was historically a buffer between China and India. If Tibet were independent, the relation between Tibet and India would be like Nepal- India; Bhutan-India. Indians would not have visa requirements and our Northern borders would be quiet and peaceful. The China-Pak nexus would also end once Tibet is independent.

It is very important to also see that the Holiest spot for Shiv Bhakts is in Kailash-Mansarover region of Tibet. Today Indians have to take a visa to go to that site. When Tibet was independent, people could just go without issues. So it did not matter much for pilgrims then. But with China taking over Tibet and one of Hinduisms most holy spots, things have changed. Even more practically this is the region from which all the major river systems in Asia originate. China has started massive projects that intend to divert water from these regions to up North.

India may not like to go to war on Tibet. But War may become an inevitability at some point. For CHinese to take claim on Tibet they also have to usurp the Buddhist legacy. Which means they have to lay claim on Arunachal now, Nepal a bit later and Bodh Gaya in it's culmination. Claiming ande acting on those claims will lead to massive tension and possibly war at some point. China will not compromise on these issues. If it had to do, it would have done so long back.

The deal making you are suggesting has been tried and failed utterly the last 60 years. The Dragon wants your soul and will keep the land. That's no bargain. You get nothing in return. The reality is that as long as China is in Tibet it will rattle India via Pakistan, change the courses of rivers, claim ArP, Nepal and ultimately Bodh Gaya. Inevitable. If i was in PRC boots i would do the same. Simply because many Indian leaders are showing they are prepared to lose Dharma and ingratiate the Dragon. That's a heady feeling.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2010 15:20

Arjun ji, we must understand one thing. Once China was in Tibet, India ceased to have leverage on China with which it could press an understanding on even mundane border issues let alone on it's relations with Pakistan. The leverage that you desperately seek with China IS Tibet. Without it there is NO leverage. Zilch.

RajeshA · Post by **RajeshA** » 15 Nov 2010 15:29

Arjun wrote:But is India prepared to go to war over Tibet? If the answer is no, then isn't the Tibet card like a cheque that can never be encashed - not of much practical use? It might then make more sense to trade this card for something that would bear practical benefits.

A tradeoff I would personally be happy with is-

1. China's support for Pakistan to cease, in return for India's understanding of China's core concerns wrt Taiwan and Vietnam
2. India acquiescing on Tibet in return for all border disputes in Kashmir and Arunachal to be settled as per India's understanding of border (Chinese portion of J&K also to be returned).

Whether the Chinese would agree is another matter, and depends on India's leverage and ability to back up intent with deeds.

On the one hand you suggest, Tibet card is unencashable and on the other, you suggest we use the card to get concessions!!!

Perhaps if each and every Tibetan of fighting age in India is given 1st class military training in conventional and asymmetric warfare and imparted high-tech skills, may be then we would be having a credible Tibet card, but then it would be a card which could be become encashable and buy the Tibetans their freedom itself.

If India does little or nothing, as is the case right now, this is in fact a card that is costing India dearly, because it has forced us on the backfoot in Arunachal Pradesh and in fact along the whole of the border. So the status quo is simply not sustainable over a long duration. India has to go on the offensive with regard to Tibet.

I am totally in favor of turning Tibetans into the world's best fighters and tacticians, and getting them to coordinate their tactics with East Turkestan Islamists.

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 15 Nov 2010 16:14

Harbans & Rajesh ji,

Agree with the points being made that

1. China does not have a moral case with regard to Tibet
2. India stands to lose its age-old Indic and Hindu links with a land considered holy &
3. China has gained immensely in terms of geostrategic advantage over India through this occupation, which conversely it would lose were the occupation to be rolled back

To be perfectly clear - when I outlined the tradeoff / deals with China in my previous post, I really meant these as deals in letter and spirit. If one side does not or has not honored it, the other is completely justified in breaking the terms, until the deal is honored in letter and spirit by both parties. So, I am all for raking up the Tibet issue and doing everything necessary as suggested by both of you, right now and in the future - but only for as long as China is not in synch with us on the concern areas I outlined. In order to incentivize them towards the behaviour we want on Pakistan and Kashmir- we do need to offer some carrots and therefore the tradeoffs I suggested. Of course, if they agree to the tradeoff but break it at any time again in the future, India would once again be justified in doing everything that you say, at that point.

If my understanding is correct - you are saying even if China plays nice with us on Pakistan, Kashmir and border issues AND does not try any other containment tricks, we should yet continue to play the Tibet card and prepare for a war at some stage with China. While what you say makes sense purely from a geostrategic standpoint - that's a maximalist position that I will need to mull over more to get comfortable with.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Nov 2010 16:22

negi wrote:Does this mean that GoI has formally relinquished all its claims on Tibet ? Not that I have any objections to it but it could have been done without bringing in Kashmir which is strictly a Indo-Pak affair.

India never had any claims on Tibet. We had always treated it as a country that was an Indian protecterate. Under Indian Suzenarety (SP?) if you will.

Tiwan is an indipendent nation simply by being free from the PRC control. If they want it to be recognised as part of the PRC then they must control it.

Now even that has been given up by this Govt, Having made this stupid statement.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 15 Nov 2010 16:39

If my understanding is correct - you are saying even if China plays nice with us on Pakistan, Kashmir and border issues AND does not try any other containment tricks, we should yet continue to play the Tibet card and prepare for a war at some stage with China. While what you say makes sense purely from a geostrategic standpoint - that's a maximalist position that I will need to mull over more to get comfortable with.

Arjun ji, i understand your point. However once China has annexed Tibet, it has no options but to legitimize it's annexation in some manner. To do so it has no other option but to usurp Buddhism and claim ArP and more. It has to quell the anger amongst the Buddhist Dharmics. It does so by claiming Buddhism as it's legacy. It wants to invent that legacy from scratch by even inventing a Dalai Lama. All this while it tries to divert waters, plays India down with Pakistan, rattles it on Ar P, Sikkim, Bhutan, NE, settles Han and makes Chinese compulsory in Tibet. India really has no maximalist position possible in this matter. The minimalistic position it should have is Tibetan independence.

It simply is not possible for China not to have good relations with Pak. China after taking Tibet simply has no choice but to go for the Dharmic jugular. And it will build and divert waters of the major river systems for it's own purposes. China wants legitimacy over Tibet,which it cannot have till it rakes India up on the borders and uses Pak to contain India in a childish game. 60 years have proven that there is no minimalistic or maximalist position India can take to lever China. There is only one position and that is challenge China on it's claim to Tibet and raise the 1960 resolution in the UN asking CHina to provide the Tibetan people with a plebiscite. China has not fulfilled that resolution till date.