Indian Autos Thread

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 03 Nov 2010 20:31

Well the TATA in-house one itself is a legacy of it's partnership with Benz. When the partnership ended so did the development of new engines. Telco made a few improvements but that's it. There was no effort to design anything more powerful. Frankly the market was not ready or clamoring for such pulling power too. Majority of trucks are owned by small owners and cost is everything to these guys. They did not or could not scale up in terms of haulage.

ArmenT, yes all long distance vehicles have a sleeper. Not like massa comfort levels, it's a bench with mattress and blanket. I have slept on these while doing trial runs from TN to MP etc. I did not mind it then but I won't be doing it now lol.

akumar · Post by **akumar** » 04 Nov 2010 09:12

Gus wrote:Well the TATA in-house one itself is a legacy of it's partnership with Benz. When the partnership ended so did the development of new engines. Telco made a few improvements but that's it. There was no effort to design anything more powerful.

While the Daimler Benz legacy is true and continues in some ways even now, they have evolved much beyond just that. At least on engines its actually otherwise.

TATA's best known engine the 697 series was introduced in 1969 just when the collaboration with Daimler Benz ended. This saved them lot of royalty payment to DB. 697 is still being made I think. It was discontinued following introduction of the Cummins range, but due to popular demand made a come a few years ago in BSII compliant version.

During DB times IIRC the engines maxed out at 90HP. If Tata had stopped development on the engines than effectively that would have meant sticking with 60's SDRE power plants till Tata Cummins came about. Mid 80's tractors like 1516 came before TCL. This was a path breaking seriese was TATA. At that time ISUSZU was contemplating an entry in India. Their local partner HM helped smuggle a 1516 tractor to Japan so that ISUZU could benchmark a product for indian market. In the event the ISUZU derivative became a huge success in S African and SE Asian markets.

By 80's TATA regularly made special application trucks which had highly tuned 697 engines making upto 200HP. TATA's inhouse engine development programme was matured enough to design not only the successful 4SP (used in 407 LCV in range). They also designed engines for the 807, 607, Sumo etc and special high powered engines for Tata Hitachi excavators. You needed to see their ERC to understand just how advanced they were despite a non demanding market. Till late 90's TML attracted the best talents from IIT and REC's as opportunities elsewhere in India were very limited.

vina · Post by **vina** » 04 Nov 2010 10:13

Gus wrote:For ex, in all HCV segments AL beats the pants out of TATA in TN

Hmm. I was under the impression that in mountainous regions in TN too, Tata was the preferred truck. With it's shorter wheelbase and it's higher torque engine, the truck could climb mountains however slowly even when fully loaded (and of course overloaded) and also be able to navigate those curves and goat tracks!.

About the loyalty of the truck owner, spot on. An AL truck owner will buy NOTHING other than an AL truck and a Tata owner will simply never buy anything else. My brother was in the truck financing business in Salem/Namagiri and this is from him.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 04 Nov 2010 11:09

Nice background information on TATA's engine efforts.

So what happened to TATA's inhouse engine developments? They did not persevere but chose to abandon in-house efforts in favour of Cummins for trucks and FIAT for cars.

Clearly, the market existed and TATA & AL also seem to have not read the luxury AC bus market enabling VOLVO to be a pioneer and take the initiative. Today, VOLVO has become a generic name for air suspension luxury AC buses in the intercity market.

By the looks of it, TATA also does not seem to be keen on making a dent in the inter luxury city market effectively acknowledging VOLVO's position. For leadership, you have to operate in all section of your market.

In the 80's, TATA was last of the blocks in the LCV market in the wake of the Japanese giants but wiped the floor with the 407 to emerge the leader.

I remember my first ride in a VOLVO bus from Wardha to Pune in the last row seat.I was dreading the journey but was pleasantly surprised when the air suspension did a fantastic job. A totally new experience for me after many last row seat bouncy uncomfortable overnight rides in TATA & AL buses with 60% cantilever overhangs.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Nov 2010 12:20

In the pre-90 era of trucks and bus body built on trucks, ALL the buses went to the Munnar route used to be AL, and ALL the bused that plied the city roads were Tata. The midlands routes had a mix, tilting in favour of Tata.

The ALs of those days (Comet, Viking, Cheetah) lacked the 'pick up', but had a higher top speed, and more 'pulling'. This is from memory of a kid enthu, who had no knowledge of any technical terms then.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 04 Nov 2010 15:57

Dileep you are confusing the issues here.

The ALs of those days (Comet, Viking, Cheetah) lacked the 'pick up', but had a higher top speed, and more 'pulling'. This is from memory of a kid enthu, who had no knowledge of any technical terms then.

ALs had higher top speed that is why they were popular as busses
but not so much for Goods transport, as tata's had higer torques and lesser speeds they were the goods carriers.

Analogue Series wound motor and shunt wound motor

Analogue is WP ( Canadian Pacific steam engines always usd with Mail, express and occasionally passenger trains, while the Donkey like work was assigned to WG)

WP Engine in its Glory days.

Leena Bullworker

Tata Truck

Ashok Leyland

***
Also revisiting the battery short ( I wanted to answer a long back but I thought win an argument lose a friend!.

When the battery is shorted internally Isquared heat is generated and the heat just doesnt stay put in the enclosure of battery, the thick copper wires from the wiren into harness start conducting heat as well as current, some what like two resistances in parallel hence the heat will eventually end up in the engine hood even if the battery is under the butt of the driver....

It is like the good old cigertte lighter in pan wallah shop, press the button the two coil turns of wire burns red and you put your (cigerette) butt and take a drag of Dunhill or Red wills.... the red hot wiring harness is enough to en lighten the fuel vapours residual in the engine Under the hood....

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 04 Nov 2010 16:14

ShivaS ji, I have absolutely no technical knowledge about the drivetrains of that era. What I posted is gyan the drivers used to give to kids.

The two curves you posted seems to be way exaggerated, because AFAIK, both tata and AL used diesel engines

Now, coming to electrical heating, THAT is an area I do have a little bit of knowledge, and that tells me that before the end of the wire, that is in the engine compartment, reaches the temperature needed for ignition, the portion of it near the source of heat (the battery under the driver's seat) would be RED HOT and its insulation in flames.

And no, I don't take arguments personally, and friendship is a personal thing.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 04 Nov 2010 17:31

Saar I said Analogue..no?

for given hp Torque and speed are inversely proportional.

That immediately puts you into series wound motor curve... a hyperbola (part) on the positive axis xy = constant
because (B)HP = 2pi NT/4500 keeping tne 2pi/4500 = k
you have (B)HP = NT since HP is kept constant by cylinder volume displaced FHP also being nearly constant for a given engine (IHP = BHP+FHP)

T torque is inverse to N.

Now diesel engines can exhibit thermal run away like (y) our transistors, hence they are goverened to range of RPM.

Anyways

"While diesel engines tend to have more torque at lower engine speeds than petrol engines, diesel engines tend to have a narrower power band than petrol engines. Naturally aspirated diesels tend to lack power and torque at the top of their speed range. This narrow band is a reason why a vehicle such as a truck may have a gearbox with as many as 18 or more gears, to allow the engine's power to be used effectively at all speeds. Turbochargers tend to improve power at high engine speeds; superchargers improve power at lower speeds; and variable geometry turbochargers improve the engine's performance equally by flattening the torque curve.
"

I dont want to monopolise the discussion. I am already on Two strikes/stokes for saying thigs the way they are...

" I am corrupt too" is my new tag line...

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 04 Nov 2010 18:33

Being pedantic, engine speed = revolutions per minute (RPM)

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Nov 2010 19:02

Akumar, my main grouse is that TATA did not develop anything different than what they inherited. The 697s fitted on double axle 2213 were not doing good...there was severe overloading too. This was around the early and mid 90s when trucking segment exploded. I saw engine blocks in such damaged conditions. The introduction of TC engines was also very disruptive.

Later the ERC came up with many improvements to the 697 after studying the TC engine. My grouse is that why they did not do it before.

The 497 engines still are a great piece of engg. The 407 is a brilliant product that was the bread and butter for the company (not sure now). But you have to agree that it is a 'step down' of a 697 by removing two cylinders and engg the rest. The company did not go beyond the 697 into making a robust and emissions compliant engine and had to rely on TC.

I will always be a TATA guy but I will argue that they could have definitely done better.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Nov 2010 19:06

Vina,

The TC engine fitted TATA vehicles of any type will outperform AL vehicles of any segment in all parameters except FE. Not sure what AL is using these days, Hino?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Nov 2010 20:21

Sorry for multiple posts..early ones were from my phone and I could not type much. Now I am at office..

The 697 NA (naturally aspirated) had severe limitations. TATA should never have put it as is on the 2213. At least they should have acted quick when engines were failing en masse in the field. In Namakkal area, the 2213 is known as 'marundhu vandi' - medicine vehicle. Not because it transports medicines, but because small truck owners who get sucked into buying a 2213 and vehicle fails and he had to drink 'eli marundhu' - rat poison and commit suicide. I personally know a customer who set his 2213 on fire in front of the VST (dealer) office in Namakkal and welded the dealer office shut, with much fanfare and boards saying 'TATAvin latchanathai paar, VSTin latchanathai paar' (Loot at TATA, Look at VST). Later I sold him a TC engined TATA and we became buddies, that's another story.

The company went from 1000 Cr profit to 3 Cr loss in a year (even with spinning off TATA-Hitachi construction equipment division). There were several reasons but the failures of 697 engines and by extension the 2213 is an important factor in this debacle.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Nov 2010 20:28

rahulm wrote:So what happened to TATA's inhouse engine developments? They did not persevere but chose to abandon in-house efforts in favour of Cummins for trucks and FIAT for cars.

697 engine would not meet emission standards as is. Coupled with failures in the field, a decision was taken to source engines from elsewhere. This resulted in the TATA-Cummins engine plant in JSR.

I have no idea why they chose FIAT engines for Indica and other passenger cars. Wasn't the Indica V2 doing good with their own engine? Maybe they felt, they could not stretch that engine in other platforms where the company was intending to compete and went for the Italian one?

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 04 Nov 2010 20:48

enough about cars. The Indian bike scene is also bustling with activity.

The Bajaj assembled 250 cc Kawasaki Ninja (aka Baby Ninja) is going to get competition from the announced Honda 250cc CBR. It remains to be seen if the CBR will be assembled as CKD or totally made in India. Depending on that the price will vary from under 2 lac (Mahindra Mojo)to close to 3 lac (Ninja price).

The Mahindra Mojo 300 cc looks good on paper, but they lost it all on pricing. It is about 1.75 lac and priced much above the Royal Enfield Classic 500 which is at 1.4 or thereabouts. The cruising segment will not be tempted by the price and those who don't want a bullet, are better off in ponying up another 1 lac and get a much much better twin engined ninja than an unproven risk like the mojo. Mahindra is probably betting on a segment that is between the RE500 and Ninja.

And finally an automaker is going to assemble 500cc+ vehicles. Till now the SBK category was all imports from Suzuki (Hayabusa and Bandit), Yamaha (MT1 and Intruder?), Honda(CB1000R) and the Harley Davidson Cruisers - these were all CBU imports and attract 110% (?) duty.

HD has just announced that they are going to assemble a limited range of their bikes (I am assuming the lower range of the 883 cc ones). This attracts a 60% duty, I believe. Prices may drop on the Harleys with the lowest one going from less than 5 lac..hmmm.

Hyosung is making another entry after the disastrous earlier one with Kinetic motors (the Comet and GF150?). It is entering with a modern cruiser and a city bike - both less than the liter class. They are tying up with Garware motors. There are probably CBUs and will be priced higher than Indian make vehicles, but will be lesser than the liter class CBU import SBKs.

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 04 Nov 2010 21:46

That is a lot of information about TATA which I have not seen before. Much appreciated.

The TATA 475 Turbo 1.4L has a higher displacement, lesser torque and power and probably heavier (less favourable P/W ratio) compared to the TATA Quadrajet (FIAT JTD) inspite of having a turbocharger.

Suzuki Dzire and Fiat Palio are fitted with the FIAT JTD engine, compete with the Vista which may have something to do TATA's decision. The JTD is a well regarded engine.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 05 Nov 2010 00:42

Ok My maruti 800 duo got dented and scratched by a Eicher driving idiot.
I was coming from Hitech city as we approached the Banjara hills road the road had become like a funnel, I was stand still as bumper to bumper traffic did not move in my lane but the lane to my right moved, I was still not moving as my lane (which is sqr root of -1) was standstill, here comes an eicher truck zooming at 5 KM and hits a pot hole in his lane the body of his truck swivels or rolls like a sub in water and bang and sceerch my mAruti mauled, is number not visible with mud on it Please sound Horn still visible, Buri Nazar wallah tera mooh kala flashe past me and I now have to get it fixed ...
Damn I drive one day in a week as I am in Chennai most of the week and I am screwed...
ANy help folks will insurence cover the expenses. No experience in India only in US?

Help please and thanks in Advance. Vehicle will be one year old on NOV 28 2010, and KiloMeterage is 4000 only..

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 05 Nov 2010 00:42

Also GUS where did you post information about Tata trucks please

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 05 Nov 2010 00:45

Solanki claims to have MG Rover diesel engine how good? Heard GM wants to source its Tavera with that enine and Force Motors has Benz 680 series engine I am told

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 05 Nov 2010 20:49

After Honda announced the 250 CBR, Suzuki, Yamaha and TVS are all planning to launch 250 CC bikes.
Hyosung 650R will be available at 5 Lacs and the ST7 at 6.5 Lacs. Bajaj is going to launch Kawassaki Ninja 650CC bike in the 5-6 Lacs range.
Also it is gearing to launch a 125 cc and a 350 CC bike Co-developed with KTM.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 05 Nov 2010 21:44

These are early days, but I think the Indian market is mature for some local manufacturing instead of CBU imports and CKD assemblies. The Honda 250CBR is a made in Thai product. Honda should really opt for making it here and pricing it under 2 lacs instead of CKD assemblies.

Ducati monsters are here too - these are CBU imports. BMW has announced entry.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 05 Nov 2010 22:00

ShivaS wrote:Ok My maruti 800 duo got dented and scratched by a Eicher driving idiot.

I feel your pain. My mustang got rear-ended by a large delivery truck at a red light and is currently at the shop. On the bright side, I'm driving a Challenger (unfortunately, I couldn't get my hands on a Charger) while my pony is getting fixed.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 06 Nov 2010 02:29

Gus wrote:
Ducati monsters are here too - these are CBU imports. BMW has announced entry.

Gus, appreciate the great posts! How much does a Ducati cost in India?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 06 Nov 2010 09:33

Good Morning Mahindra Truck Fans,

Congratulations. You are part of over 30,000 signed up to be the first to experience the hardworking Mahindra trucks.

I know you are wondering when you will have the opportunity to get behind the wheel of one of these amazing, authentic, robust, fuel-efficient trucks at a Mahindra dealer near you. While I cannot give you a firm answer on timing, I can tell you in my estimation, trucks will arrive in the spring of 2011.

Mahindra has applied for and received their EPA (Environmental Protection Agency) certificate, which means the vehicles have passed emission requirements. They also filed with (NHTSA) National Highway Safety Administration, which handles US standards for safety.

With these hurdles completed, it would seem production is imminent, but other factors may hinder the US launch. India’s car sales are on a dramatic trajectory upward. The sales pace combined with an industry wide parts shortage is impacting home market sales, which will have an affect on the United States introduction.

In closing, I know each of you anxiously await the arrival of the Mahindra trucks, and I am confident that you will see a launch announcement in the next few months.

If you haven't seen the Specsheet on the trucks yet, please click on the link below to see it.

Click here to view Specsheet

Or copy and place the following into your browser:

http://mahindrana.com/pdf/specsheet.pdf

Regards,

John A. Perez
CEO
Global Vehicles USA, Inc.
1720 Windward Concourse
Suite 400
Alpharetta, GA 30005

(770) 753-4441 (Office)
(770) 753-4420 (Fax)

www.mahindraNA.com

IMPORTANT: This email is confidential and intended solely for the consumption of the individual or entity to whom it is addressed. If you have received this email in error please notify the system manager. If you are not the named addressee you should not disseminate, distribute or copy this e-mail. Please notify the sender immediately by e-mail if you have received this e-mail by mistake and delete this e-mail from your system. If you are not the intended recipient you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 06 Nov 2010 10:03

I got the same email, at what cost these trucks?

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 06 Nov 2010 10:14

No idea. I got it from a red neck friend who is into pickups. I did not see it posted so went ahead and posted it.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 06 Nov 2010 13:14

hnair wrote:How much does a Ducati cost in India?

Monster 796 goes for 9.17 in Mumbai.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 06 Nov 2010 13:58

Gus>. AL is using Iveco (iTalian) engines and gear boxes.
By the way wher did you post about tatat trucks(info) may I have peak at that information unless it is priviled info for som members only?

http://www.ashokleyland.com/downloads/32006news.pdf

Also tieup with Avia which has Daweo tieup and Avia was a part of Skoda, and if AL can get Piston engines we can make our own pAL predators hopefuly?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avia

rahulm · Post by **rahulm** » 06 Nov 2010 14:06

I wonder why TATA persisted with separate cab designs for the forward control chassis. 1312, 1516 and 1616 had the slighted angled front while the other forward control chassis has the classic 1210 E straight front chassis.

Would it not have made sense to have only 1 type of forward control chassis from a cost, die and simplification standpoint. Ergo, what were the benefits of maintaining 2 separate types?

ShivaS, I am quite certain AL no longer use Iveco engines, They have standardised on the Japanese Hino 'H' series across their truck and bus range. Don't know about gearboxes and engines for their defence products (Source AL website).

Also, from http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 040200.htm

The company’s annual report for 2006-07 notes that after “the withdrawal of IVECO (of Italy) as an equity partner in the holding company, Ashok Leyland is pursuing a policy of self-reliance.” Asked to elaborate on this, Mr Seshasayee said that the statement only meant that Ashok Leyland was in full command of technology.

Notes the annual report: “After upgrading the H series engine platform (with the help of a European engine consultancy organisation) to meet the Bharat Stage (BS) III regulation, the company is now upgrading the platform to meet Euro 4 (BS IV) emission requirements. The company has also commenced the independent development of a new engine platform to meet future requirements.”

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 07 Nov 2010 11:42

ShivaS wrote:Gus>. AL is using Iveco (iTalian) engines and gear boxes.

They used Iveco only on MCVs and lesser ranges, IIRC. Not sure after all these years.

All my posts are in this page..nothing great and hidden info..just some of my own experiences..

nandakumar · Post by **nandakumar** » 07 Nov 2010 14:58

[quote="rahulm"]I wonder why TATA persisted with separate cab designs for the forward control chassis. 1312, 1516 and 1616 had the slighted angled front while the other forward control chassis has the classic 1210 E straight front chassis.

Would it not have made sense to have only 1 type of forward control chassis from a cost, die and simplification standpoint. Ergo, what were the benefits of maintaining 2 separate types?

Well 1516 and 1616 vehicles had to be taken off the market for a reason that i reckon is a classic text book case study on how not to design products from business strategy perspective. These were single rear axle (is 'rigid type axle', the correct term?) vehicles.
They could not be registered because the rear laden weight of the vehicle would have exceeded the permissible weight norms ( 8 tonnes) under the Motor Vehicles Act. This was of course in the days before the golden quadrilateral and north-south east-west national highway projects where the bridges would not have taken the load on most parts of the country. A few did get registered, god knows with what kind of pressures brought to bear on the local MV department officials.
But it didn't matter because the vehicles were simply not powered adequately to take on the customary 30 to 40 per cent overload that truck operators routinely subject the vehicle to. Result, truck operators simply shied away from booking anymore of those vehicles after the initial experience filtered through the market grapevine.
Indeed, old timers in Tata Motors recalled with acute embarrassment the spectacle of a stranded 1516 on the old Bombay-Pune ghat road being given a bit of a leg up by an AL Comet vehicle. There were sections on that old ghat road that had some off the steepest gradients seen south of Uttarkhand/Himachal Pradesh region hill roads. The vehicle simply did not have the pulling power to get over the hump.
All this raises the basic question whether Tatas should not have formed a cross functional team with specialists from sales (it was good old sales and not marketing in those days), finance and production etc when they set about developing the turbo charged heavier duty vehicles in the 80s. That was impossible because the then Chairman, Sumant Moolgaocar was so hands on with everything at Tata Motors and certainly with what went on at the Engineering Research Centre, a traditional project approach to product design was out of question.
They decided to go back to the drawing boards, came up with the 697 diesel engine that still wouldn't meet the fuel efficiency /emission norms. By this time Moolgaocar passed away and Ratan Tata had taken full charge, the company decided that they would team up with Cummins in a joint venture. The problem by now was that the Cummins engine was way too expensive and the Tatas had to price it below what it cost them to acquire it from the JV company so that they didn't lose the competitive advantage vis a vis AL. Industry sources then said that they were losing about rs 50,000 on each vehicle and as all this was happening they ran bang into one of those periodic slumps in the commercial vehicles industry.
That they came out of it successfully to ride on the multi axle vehicle boom of the 2000 to 2008 years is a tribute to the investment made in the technical manpower right through the decades of 70s, 80s, 90s and well beyond.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2010 11:22

Biraders I need help in buying a new car.

The requirements are that It must be a Diesel and the budget is about 5.5 lacs.

The cars I have looked at are

1) Swift LDI
2) Ritz LDI
3) Polo Base model
4) Fabia Base model
5) Figo EXI.

I am not permitted to look at the Indica.

Now I need to understand from the experience of the members. Which one of the above offers the best value for money. i.e the operating costs of the M800.

as am currently a proud owner of a 6 year old one.

Mind you I come from a Maruti family and am open to the idea to diversifying.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 08 Nov 2010 17:50

pratyush, My requirements for second car are simlar to yours except that I need atleast 7 or 8 seater. I ruled out Innova, way too expensive, Safari is going upto base model of Innova when Loaded. I tried Xylo its as price as Innova...
So I am thinking

Bolero
Suma

Sonalika (poor mans Sophia Loren aka Qualis)

Alternatively Suzuki Eco 7 seater and after market Air conditioning Petrol only

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 08 Nov 2010 23:04

Diesel still makes sense? What is the cost difference per Km when taking into account price of fuel and kmpl?

I guess nowadays diesel engines are more refined and fuel is low sulphur, so exhaust is better than olden days. But the govt is still subsidizing diesel with petrol, isn't it?

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 08 Nov 2010 23:31

Pratyush, From your list, Polo is best. The other car's from your list comes nowhere near to polo.

VW Polo:
Performance and Handling - A*
Comfort - A*
Behind the Wheel - A*
Safety - A*

I think mainataince will be exensive as compare to maruti cars. But on the other parameters Polo is best.Here in UK, new polo starts with £16,000 goes uto £25,000. I am not sure why its so cheap in India.
Note:Whatever I have mentioned about VW Polo above is applicable only if VW hasnt compromised with the quality (while manufacturing it in India). As price,Rs 5.5 Lacs, looks quite low to me for VW polo

jagga · Post by **jagga** » 08 Nov 2010 23:39

If Volkswagen Polo 1.2 TDI Bluemotion model is available for this price, I would say go for this. On motorway it gave about 135Km per 4.5 liters (Diesel)

bart · Post by **bart** » 09 Nov 2010 02:42

Pratyush,

Firstly, what is your monthly running and why do you want to go for diesel?

If you are indeed going for diesel, you need to check what your priorities, if you need a good all round car which does everything well, Ford Figo is the best bet.

Ritz/Swift are based on the same platform but for practicality (better ingress/egress, no waiting period, cheaper as discounts are available) I would suggest Ritz out of the two. Go for Ritz (or Swift) if your priorities are good service and resale value.

Stay away from Polo, the 1.2 engines are 3-cylinder, unrefined and lack power, the Fiat engine in the Maruti and the Ford TDCI are much better VFM. Also VW support is patchy and the dealer network is sparse, and you have a long waiting list.

If you are willing to wait a few weeks, check out the Micra diesel, and if you can wait a few months wait for the Toyota Etios.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2010 09:53

Bart / Jagaa,

My monthly driving is arround 2500 Kms. Initialy I had considered converting the current car(M800) to CNG. It has approx 60000 Kms on the clock.

But looking at the "Hidden costs of CNG", I discarded the plan.

What I am looking at is a car that is comparable to the M800 in running costs. Milage etc. The savings will be primarly in terms of fuel costs.

I anticipate that with diesel I will be able to save 30 % in fuel costs over petrol every month. With CNG it will be 50%. But the time & convinence costs will be added to this and that makes it unviable for me.

Initialy I had thought of Ritz. But looking at the trim levels and the costs. I am considering the Figo. But I dont really know it the running costs will be comparable to the 800. So am confused.

The final decision for me will be made towards the end of December.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Nov 2010 10:05

Spin man,

You could get the eco converted to CNG from the dealer it self, if running cost is a concern and the wait at the pump is not. For the average Indian family. It seems to be nice and spacious vehicle.

That will make it available to you for approx 4.5 lacs.

Alternatively you could go for Xylo E6. On road cost ought to be approx 6.5 lacs. It has a tractor motor from what I hear. But space will not be a concern for you.

JMT.

ShivaS · Post by **ShivaS** » 10 Nov 2010 15:46

Guys any Idea when Tata Venture Mini van will be released or in show rooms?
seems to be decent vahicle for me(my requirements) with in budget, 7/8 seater Diesel does it have A/c though which is absolute must for me.
Thanks in advance..

manish · Post by **manish** » 10 Nov 2010 18:32

ShivaS wrote:Guys any Idea when Tata Venture Mini van will be released or in show rooms?
seems to be decent vahicle for me(my requirements) with in budget, 7/8 seater Diesel does it have A/c though which is absolute must for me.
Thanks in advance..

Venture is basically a Tata Ace (Super Ace?) underneath with minimal modifications or improvements - a test drive report on Team BHP seems to indicate that the fit, finish and refinement levels have not come up to passenger car levels yet. I would not venture towards a Venture if I were you...

BTW big thanks to Gus and Nandakumar for their extremely informative posts. Excellent info saars, much appreciated!