Indian Autos Thread

[ShivaS]

ok I went back and read a lot of posts.
Remember Ford entered the truck segment with its CAB forward design and the whole cabin would swing open forward to expose the engine. Even though it was good in many ways our Lorry drivers as Gus rightly says are very supersitous, they did not approve it and it died. Remember HM trucks Bedford, mostly used by Municipalities...and Also PALs (Lalchand Hirachand owned)Dodge and fargo trucks with Rocket Egine which was very big hit with Sand , Brick Lorries. In one situation I saw The back axle of Dodge truck come off In Himayath nagar cross roads (hyderabad)early morning in 1980s which went like a flywheel (because of RPM and the weight of twin wheels and rims and a peiece of shaft) and hit a auto rickshaw which just went on to one side and turned turtle with passengers in shock and awe and the Brick lorry as usaul had two Hamailis (coolies) who uload the bricks sitting on top flying on to fall on the road, all suffered minor injuries but every one watching were shocked beyon belief, The lorry drive just ploughed the tar road and came to screeching halt as it fell to one side...

Now Commins had collobration with Kirloskar, cummins engines were used on Dodge trucks...
Its a shame that HM which had good collobration screwed up big time. HM terex, HM allison automatic and so did PAL...

Just like country a industrial houses need leaders with vision and timing

[krisna]

Tata Motors Jaguar Land Rover assembly unit in India by next year

Tata Motors on Tuesday said it plans to assemble Land Rover SUV in India from early next year, besides it is also setting up assembly unit to produce JLR brands in China.

The Jaguar Land Rover business continued to show strong profitability, with healthy volumes in Q2 FY2010-11, reporting a profit after tax of GBP 238 million (Rs 1,715 crore).

[krisna]

Tata Motors’ Foreign Gamble Pays Off

Tata Motor Ltd.’s foreign gamble hit the jackpot as India’s auto giant reported a more than 100-fold jump in the July-September quarter consolidated net profit late Tuesday, largely driven by Jaguar-Land Rover sales.

Indian auto makers like Mahindra & Mahindra and Ashok Leyland also posted better-than-expected second quarter results fuelled by strong demand, a clear sign that the car industry, at least in India, is performing well.

[Gus]

Just like country a industrial houses need leaders with vision and timing

Absolutely. And Ratan Tata has hopefully set the Tata's on a platform from where their many industries can become world-beaters. The time I spent at the Tata's, they were going under a great change. I have read 'Business Process Reengineering' (BPR) in the books. To be a part of that was awesome. There were a lot of young, ambitious and smart people promoted into bigger responsibilities completely sidelining the regular seniority based promotion thing. When middle managers were pushing back, a separate category was created with new job titles which was pointed out as a different job than the usual job hierarchy.

It was wonderful being part of that experience where the company changed from self-doubters to confident people who knew that with hard work and determination they can succeed.

Right here in BRF, the J&LR deal was criticized for many reasons - why are they doing this..look at the cost of the deal, tata is overreaching etc. The game changer is that these cars are now going to be made right here and exported elsewhere. Just like how Royal Enfield is now an INDIAN brand, with enough time, all these things we buy will be Indian. When I see Tetley tea bags in the US, I see TATA...not what it was before.

[Rishirishi]

This is quite interesting. Ford hardly ever made profit from JLR. Now the TATAS seem to have turned the business into profit. Perhaps it is because of heavy outsourcing to India. Maybe GM may be next.

[ShivaS]

HM Bedford. PAL Dodge/Fargo all had Simpsons Perkins Diesel Engines with distinct sound just Like Leyland has.

I have worked for GM in FLint/Saginaw in MI (circa 1991 to 1993). The UAW workers culture was worse than PSU or OFP workers.... No wonder big three are the small two now ( not counting CHrysler as a one of the three anymore)

[rahulm]

Had some time so walked into the the Sayadri Motors Mahindra showroom opposite Deccan Gymkhana bus stop in Pune. Had a look at the Scorpio and Xylo. Both were showroom samples.

Disregarding styling which is personal & subjective.

1. The interior trim for the most part looks cheap and plasticy.
2. The glove box, after opening looks and feels flimsy (compared to the ALTO).
3. The power window & ceiling light switches feel flimsy
4. The rear seats have good legroom and full thigh support (rare and welcome)
5. The door interior door opening handles also feel flimsy.
6. The dashboard AC vents look flimsy. More like a toy
7. The seat upholstery fit and finish was good.
8. The mHawk engine is noisy and vibrates. The gear shift vibrates uncomfortably on idle, good for re-arranging one's knuckles. I think Mahindra have carried over the unrefined engine legacy from the CJ series which used to feel like a hammer banging an anvil. That or its an NVH engineering issue.

In summary, the exterior fit and finish is much better than the interiors which feels flimsy, plasticy and cheap with a noisy but powerful engine. I did not test drive any of the vehicles so can't comment on ride quality.

JMT.

[bart]

This is quite interesting. Ford hardly ever made profit from JLR. Now the TATAS seem to have turned the business into profit. Perhaps it is because of heavy outsourcing to India. Maybe GM may be next.

Its not. There has been hardly any outsourcing to India, except for the 'management' which seems to have been 'outsourced' to India and Bavaria. Its just good management and proper product strategy.

[Pratyush]

If you notice we are seeing a lot of these cars on Indian roads subsequent to the Tata purchase. Perhaps that could be the reason for the turn arround. As in the past not many in India cared for the brands. But today they do. So will look at buying them.

In my daily commute to and from the office I see at least one land rover nearly every day on the streach. Diffrent cars each time. Also during the morning walks, I see at a couple of jags parked in the parking lot of the garden. One black and other white. Looking cool.

Previously it was Merks and BMWs that were aspirational. Today it is the Jaguar.

JMT

[Pratyush]

Rahulm,

I had test driven the Xylo E8 crdi, the clutch was like you had to dropkick it if you wanted to shift gears. The clatter at approx 3000 rpm was very noticable.

Perhaps becaues it was a test article. Had approx 12000 kms on the clock.

The Inova handles like a dream as compared to the Xylo.

[ShivaS]

There is Nawabi style nostalgia with Jaguar...
remember India was ruled by British and as such British Cars were patronized than German cars like BMW, Benz etc.

SO India was full of RR and Jaguar...

The return of Jagaur the cat that has his elder cousin Begal tigers home is home coming in ways...
Hence Jaguar is sought after

[Abhijeet]

I see almost no Jaguars in my neck of the woods. I think the luxury cars in order of frequency that I see are:

- BMW 3-series (~Rs. 25 lakh)
- Mercedes C-class (~Rs. 30 lakh)
- BMW 5-series (not sure)
- Mercedes E-class (~Rs. 45 lakh)
- Everything else

I think the BMW X1 if and when it launches will also be quite popular. Basically a 3-series and similarly priced, but more SUV-like and with higher ground clearance.

There are quite a lot of 3-series and C-class cars on the road nowadays. They are not an unreasonable purchase for a senior manager (not CxO-level) in an MNC.

[SaiK]

http://www.honda2wheelersindia.com/vfr/ ... esult=true

wow! I am amazed at the price tag.

[AdityaM]

I am unsure on how the car defogging works.
The rear windshield has embedded heating wire which does its own heating to clear the glass.
But its the front shield that i cant figure out.
On pressing the front defogger button, air gets blown on the front screen. But should the air be cold or should it be hot?
need to figure this before winter sets in.

[Amber G.]

^^Warm (and dry) air. (Best way is turn on AC (with heat turned on) which reduces humidity inside the car)

[Gus]

defrosting - warm to hot air depending on severity of frost. closed circulation.

demisting/defogging - hot air to clear up fast (cold air will do it too, will take a bit longer). problem with keeping it on hot air is that hot air carries more moisture which when touching the cold windscreen, will cool and throw extra moisture on to the glass, fogging it again.

switch to cold air to avoid re-fogging and open circulation from outside so the moisture laden inside air is not hitting the glass again and again.

[manish]

I have seen one of these beautiful trucks on ORR in blr recently. eagerly waiting for when we fit containerized Agni3 on it.

Was it this one?

Recently spotted a lovely Tata Prima 4938S heavy on the BLR-CHN highway. The Lady In Red was kept company by a bunch of AMW heavies who were hauling steel for the brand's parent Essar.

cc: sscm at skyscrapercity

[svinayak]

When was Tata Prima 4938S introduced. Can somebody give some history

[manish]

Acharya avare, the Prima range constitutes the so called Tata World Truck. They were launched formally in Mumbai during mid-2009. The project is said to have begun in 2005 or so. Kindly check page 51 of this very thread for some more pictures and details.

[Dileep]

Fogging happens when the temperature of the glass is lower than the dew point of the air inside. The solution depends upon the temperature and humidity of the external air.

If the external air is cold and dry, like you see in cold climates, use the heater with vent open. This will pull in the dry outside air, heat it up for comfort, and hit the glass to heat it up.

If the external air is not cold and very humid, like you would see in rainy season here, use the AC with vent closed. The AC will condense out the moisture and dry the air inside. Though the glass will be a bit cold, the removal of moisture from the air will be faster to avoid condensation.

In certain extreme cases, like you suddenly get a cold rain from a hot humid state, you may have to first use the heater to heat the glass to kick the condensation out into the air, and then switch to AC to dry the air, all with vent closed. Do not open the vent, or open the window if the outside air is moist.

If you don't have AC, it is better to open the windows, because then the inside and outside air become equal, and it will no longer condense.

[svinayak]

Well the TATA in-house one itself is a legacy of it's partnership with Benz. When the partnership ended so did the development of new engines. Telco made a few improvements but that's it. There was no effort to design anything more powerful.

While the Daimler Benz legacy is true and continues in some ways even now, they have evolved much beyond just that. At least on engines its actually otherwise.

TATA's best known engine the 697 series was introduced in 1969 just when the collaboration with Daimler Benz ended. This saved them lot of royalty payment to DB. 697 is still being made I think. It was discontinued following introduction of the Cummins range, but due to popular demand made a come a few years ago in BSII compliant version.

During DB times IIRC the engines maxed out at 90HP. If Tata had stopped development on the engines than effectively that would have meant sticking with 60's SDRE power plants till Tata Cummins came about. Mid 80's tractors like 1516 came before TCL. This was a path breaking seriese was TATA. At that time ISUSZU was contemplating an entry in India. Their local partner HM helped smuggle a 1516 tractor to Japan so that ISUZU could benchmark a product for indian market. In the event the ISUZU derivative became a huge success in S African and SE Asian markets.

By 80's TATA regularly made special application trucks which had highly tuned 697 engines making upto 200HP. TATA's inhouse engine development programme was matured enough to design not only the successful 4SP (used in 407 LCV in range). They also designed engines for the 807, 607, Sumo etc and special high powered engines for Tata Hitachi excavators. You needed to see their ERC to understand just how advanced they were despite a non demanding market. Till late 90's TML attracted the best talents from IIT and REC's as opportunities elsewhere in India were very limited.

I remember going to the engine testing rooms in late 80s. Spotless shop floors in all buildings.
407 and 607 became a hit during that period. We used to learn the reason for demise of 1516 during that period

this 31 Ton and 49 tons are massive vehicles.

what engine is this 380 HP and anything above must be imported. It must be beyond the plant cap.

[ShivaS]

{deleted}

The need forn 407 type vehicles came about because of the LCV market being opened up with IMF loans just befor Asiad 82.

The sudden Japanese invasion with Alwyn Nissan, DCM Toyota, Mitsubishi Eicher of Indian roads and the demise of Standard 20 Mail wans gave the impteus to Tatas enter with 407 vehicle, also the regular chasis of Tata and Ashok Leyland went thru the roof for small time operators to be in business. There was a thriving black market for Tata and AL chasis IIRC till late 70s tata and AL chasis were around 75 to 95 thousands, just the wooden chair for driver and the front grill...

I wonder what happened to Simpsons engine plant in Chennai?

I think the day is not faar off when AL or Tata will provide engines for MBTs while the useless OFBs sleep with top rated machines under their butt..

[svinayak]

I missed it
I am sorry I was asleep

[Vipul]

Two-wheeler capacities may touch 15 m next fiscal.

[Gus]

OT: umrao, use ignore list. Saves u a lot of irritation.

[Singha]

in areas like ladakh and north sikkim does the IA use or plan to use 4x4 ATV type vehicles for patrolling - beats having to walk on ATVable routes ... and a big kitbag can be tied in the back. I have seen pix of PLA using such vehicles and towing trailers of infantry.

[Sridhar K]

Jumrao Garu, the Simpson plant is still operational producing engines for marine applications. They were making the engines for Mahindra vans (maxi cabs) and not sure whether they continue to do so.

[ShivaS]

Sridhar neengal chennai da iriken?
Nan every week chennai varun
ippo Princeton nan Verdu
next week i am in Montreal
are you in Toronto
sorry for proper Tamil grammer but I want to Learn
(@ the expense of BR)

I don't police
I don't cut paste (only)
I am not acharya but
I am only sishya

[sarabpal.s]

I am very much concern about Low floor buses of Delhi because these buses soon become scrap if not maintain properly by DTC.

i had few pics of them as well as movie regarding their condition
can post it here

[Singha]

please post them. let us not hide the truth for H&D reasons. anything not maintained properly will go to scrap - a rule the govt constantly neglects in govt buildings also.

[sanjeevpunj]

The same vehicle costs two times as much in India, compared to UAE. For example,the Mitsubishi Outlander sells for just under 20 Lakhs in India, while the same model sells for under 90KAED in UAE, which works out to Rs 11,25,000 Lakhs only. I wonder who is eating such a huge margin. its not just Mitsubishi Outlander, this is seen generally as rule, that the cost of a vehicle manufactured outside India is nearly half of what it costs in India.Who is eating this money.Surely there is a hanky panky going on for years, as far as foreign cars are concerned.Is this the way to force Indians to buy Indian? A lot of people wouldn't go for expensive vehicles like Audi and BMW if they cost twice as much in India, compared to abroad. Consider the cost of a 2010 model of a BMW X-5 4WD SUV with 3.0L engine capacity is sold in UAE at a whopping price of around 250K AED, amounting to only Rs 31,25,000 whereas the same in India would cost around Rs 53,00,000 for a 3 Ltrs Engine.Notice the difference of nearly 22,00,000 lakhs.The moment you buy it abroad and bring it to India, the cost is further hiked up by the customs to match the selling price in india, making it useless to buy it from abroad.This is surely something fishy.Who gets such a huge revenue out of each vehicle?

[Sriman]

^^
Import duty is very high on CBUs (around 106%) and CKDs (around 60%). So unless the car gets manufactured in India, it will cost a lot more than it does in the country of manufacture.

PS: The rates i've indicated may not be totally accurate but indicative.

[Abhijeet]

Here is my highly scientific list of the top redneck cars in India. No offence to any BRFites who happen to own these cars.

1. Tata Indica
2. Tata Sumo
3. Mahindra Scorpio
4. Mahindra Bolero
5. Toyota Qualis

These are the cars most likely to be driven by a semi-literate fourth grade dropout who has never seen the inside of a driving school.

My standard operating procedure when observing one of these cars behind me is to simply ignore what they are doing and continue obliviously on in my lane (this may not be wisest approach). Typical things such cars do include some or all of the following:

1. Following you 6 inches from your rear bumper at 60 kmph
2. Driving up very close behind you and then flashing their lights
3. Honking incessantly even in a traffic jam
4. Passing you with a few centimeters of space between your side mirror and their car, and then immediately veering into your lane while braking suddenly

Having a large population of such cars on Indian roads certainly keeps your reflexes in good working order.

[Abhijeet]

I should clarify. I didn't say I don't yield to anyone, so I don't know where you got that from. I yield far quicker than other cars to ambulances and other emergency vehicles with their lights on. I try not to yield to boors who are driving dangerously because they think it's "cool", since I would like (in my own small way) to encourage good driving habits. I know it's more or less a lost cause.

What driving etiquette and/or laws do you think I am breaking by not doing so? Am I obliged to yield to everyone who feels like getting ahead of me even if I am driving at the speed limit or there is traffic moving at the same speed in front of me?

[Sridhar K]

Adding to my previous post, Simpsons still manufacture 4 cylinder DI engines.
http://www.simpsons.in/products/simpsons_vehicular.html

Abhishek: Abhijit (my apologies)
The list shoudln't be based on the car model. Taxis, SUV and even lot of people driving high end cars do what you state, at least in Chennai.

About the driving schools in India, less said the better. I had driven in the US and when I came back, took some driving lessons from the local driving school to ease the process of getting my local licence. While shifting lanes, I turned my head left for checking the blind spot, the instructor reprimanded me. For him, the process is simple, just look at the rear view mirror in the cabin and just shift lanes. Checked with many such instructors and no body has a clue on blind spots.

OT: Will delete later.
SpinS: Nan Chennai la than irrukken. Back in Chennai for good. Pls. mail me at s r i t h a r k r i s h n a at garam mail.

Added Later;
Gus, and others:
Good discussions on AL and Tatas. Last time I checked, these days AL's engines are sourced from Hino (all H Series) and their partnership with IVECO ended a couple of years ago. Now with Tata's association with FIAT, we may see a TATA IVECO partnership. You may check AL's website http://www.ashokleyland.com/home.jspfor confirmation. AL will also be partnering with Nissan for LCV/MCV. The AL's Hinos have lower NVH levels when compared to the old Leyland engines. Have traveled a few times on sleeper coaches build on AL's 12M Chasis (which have full pneumatic suspension) and the ride quality is not very different from the volvo.

The other silent player in the bus chasis market is Eicher, widely used by the operators handling IT company buses. I heard that they give a pretty good mileage (even upto 6~7 KMPL) and power/torque is not bad.

[Sachin]

Here is my highly scientific list of the top redneck cars in India. No offence to any BRFites who happen to own these cars.......

A few observations from my side as well...
1. Tata Indica :- This car has become the defacto "cab" for many of the call centres to ferry people. The drivers of these cabs are in many cases semi-literate and have absolutely no interest in safe driving. Their rosters (i.e pick up/drop timings) are also not well planned and the time may be unadequate, so they are always in a hurry. This along with their boorish mentality creates the mess.
2. Tata Sumo:- Same case as #1. Some of these vehicles are also used by some government departments (ex: Police and RTO), and this gives the extra arrogance.
3. Mahindra Scorpio :- Mark of a young, spoilt brat. Arrogance induced mainly by money and muscle power. Also the size of the vehicle may also scare of other drivers.
4. Mahindra Bolero:- Same as #3.
5. Toyota Qualis:- Same as #1.

[Pratyush]

Sachin/ Abhijit,

You have left out the Tavera. In the NCR, you have a lot of young cab divers launching gazwa e hind with these vehicles on the road.

The Innova may be a family vehicle. But even then no gurantee that it will be driven by some one who actually knows how to drive.

Please be very afread of motor bike rider on the city roads. The guys can come and go from any direction. As if life is a loan and has to be repaid as soon as possible.

Also, if you are in Banglore. most of the auto drivers are Rajnikant fans. At least the ones I have riden on. They will overtake an Octavia like it was a bullock cart, with me holding on for dear life. Reciting the hanuman chalisa.

[manish]

Added Later;
Gus, and others:
Good discussions on AL and Tatas. Last time I checked, these days AL's engines are sourced from Hino (all H Series) and their partnership with IVECO ended a couple of years ago. Now with Tata's association with FIAT, we may see a TATA IVECO partnership. You may check AL's website http://www.ashokleyland.com/home.jspfor confirmation. AL will also be partnering with Nissan for LCV/MCV. The AL's Hinos have lower NVH levels when compared to the old Leyland engines. Have traveled a few times on sleeper coaches build on AL's 12M Chasis (which have full pneumatic suspension) and the ride quality is not very different from the volvo.

The other silent player in the bus chasis market is Eicher, widely used by the operators handling IT company buses. I heard that they give a pretty good mileage (even upto 6~7 KMPL) and power/torque is not bad.

Sridhar saar, so far I have seen Parveen Travels deploying them in large numbers, besides some BMTC Parisara Vahini (plain jane service) buses in BLR. Not seen their Fully Built Vehicle (FBV) SLF yet in operation anywhere with the big gubmint corporations. I have heard that the engines are basically scaled up versions of their old Mitsubishi LCV engines, reportedly modified by AVL Austria which seems to be the engine tuning house of choice for Indian auto cos.

I too agree that the market could do with more competition in the mainstream bus market which is currently a Tata-AL duopoly a la Boeing-Airbus.

Here's a pic of the Eicher bus from SSC:

[Aditya_V]

The same vehicle costs two times as much in India, compared to UAE. For example,the Mitsubishi Outlander sells for just under 20 Lakhs in India, while the same model sells for under 90KAED in UAE, which works out to Rs 11,25,000 Lakhs only. I wonder who is eating such a huge margin. its not just Mitsubishi Outlander, this is seen generally as rule, that the cost of a vehicle manufactured outside India is nearly half of what it costs in India.Who is eating this money.Surely there is a hanky panky going on for years, as far as foreign cars are concerned.Is this the way to force Indians to buy Indian? A lot of people wouldn't go for expensive vehicles like Audi and BMW if they cost twice as much in India, compared to abroad. Consider the cost of a 2010 model of a BMW X-5 4WD SUV with 3.0L engine capacity is sold in UAE at a whopping price of around 250K AED, amounting to only Rs 31,25,000 whereas the same in India would cost around Rs 53,00,000 for a 3 Ltrs Engine.Notice the difference of nearly 22,00,000 lakhs.The moment you buy it abroad and bring it to India, the cost is further hiked up by the customs to match the selling price in india, making it useless to buy it from abroad.This is surely something fishy.Who gets such a huge revenue out of each vehicle?

The answer is very simple,

a) Taxes account for 40% to 60% of cost of the car depending on being small car to one big and fully imported. In the gulf there only a 5% straight customs duty.

Scenario 1- Car fully imported in India

Sale Price Rs. 100 + Customs Duty 106%+ Life taX 10% + Insurance and extras. On road price Rs. 235.

Scenario 2- Small car with 30% import

Sale Price100+ Customs duty 9%( customs duty on import content)+ Excise 10%+ Vat 12.5 %+ Life Tax 10%+ Insurance and extras. On road Price Rs. 145

Scenario 3- Mid sized car car with 50% import

Sale Price100+ Customs duty 15%( customs duty on import content)+ Excise 20%+ Vat 12.5 %+ Life Tax 10%+ Insurance and extras. On road Price Rs. 180.

b) Companies alo make cars depending on loacal conditions. When comparing India VS Gulf , Suspension has to be much better and underbody steel much better for Indian roads+ engine changes for feul quality. Hence car cost goes up

c) Dealers in Gulf make less margins on new vehicle but make higher margins on Service and parts compared to India. In Oman the Bahwan groups charge 40-100 R.O in every service happily and sometimes even upto R.O 400.
In India service maintence cost is geneally cheaper by about 40-50%

The reason for the High taxes, Large National population to support NREGCA , welfare schemes unlike UAE ( although Dubai may claim otherwise, it is dependant on Abu DHabi Oil Money). The GCC rely on Oil money hence virtually no taxes on Vehicles.

[ShivaS]

Agree with sanjeev punj I have been comparing US prices of Toyota etc cars to desi prices unbeliveable gouxhinh and fleecing and mind you the car safety regulations are much relaxed compared to Khanland and yet the high prices somebody is making Indian new rich really idiots