Indian Military Aviation

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shukla
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

DNA barcoding of birds to curb air mishaps
TOI
To reduce bird hits, scientists at the National Centre for Cell Science (NCCS), Pune, with the Indian Air Force are conducting DNA barcoding of birds. They will also identify species which are most susceptible to hitting planes.

The IAF is preparing the database of some of the known birds that are involved in accidents. "Once the entire DNA barcoding of the bird species is done, it will be easier to gauge their flying patterns and accordingly take precautionary measures. The sky belongs to them and we are encroaching on their area. Hence, we must time our exercises and avoid areas where they usually fly, find out their routine and fly the aircrafts accordingly," said Yogesh Shouche, principal investigator of NCCS
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Interview with Dr Prahlada ( Force )

Part-1
Part-2
Indranil
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Indranil »

From Livefist

EXCLUSIVE: Official Wishlist of Evolutionary Technologies for India's 5thGen AMCA.

I had discussed with Santosh that MCA is the next logical step to LCA. Apparently not, it seems like a huge leap yet again.

Or may be the avionics development is not the biggest bottleneck, and hence they have thickened that part.

Whatever it is. All the best DRDO/ADA/HAL!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Santosh »

If the services/DRDO keep gazing at the sky India can never field a fully indigenous combat aircraft. India has to take what it has developed in the last 20 years and assemble it into a competant fighter, doesn't matter what it looks like. At some point we have to pull research out of critical path and start putting things together. But it looks like flying aircraft with foreign subsystems will be the bane of aeronautical development in India.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

sounds very ambitious to me - makes sense only if full funding and JVs are sought with established players to make a base in india.
else a Tejas-NG spec would be more realistic.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Craig Alpert »

Not sure why people think its something out of reach?? I mean a 5th gen cockpit display technology is already out in commercial world in use by Apple (ipad, iphone etc..) for something close to home there is the upcoming Notion Ink Adam tablet, & Hal-Samtel JV display which can improvise to add touch sensitive based GUI's. Yes it will need time, but given the time frame for development of AMCA it is completely feasible. Also Fiber Optics have been used extensively so making an air craft fly by light shouldn't prove to be a significant development, as US, Europe already have it on their production versions...As long as there is strong Political Will, IAF participation and enough funds for inhouse R&D the seems doable. God Speed to AMCA!
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Can some one please post the gist of what is desired in the FGFA as the livefist is blocked in my office.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by vic »

India is importing basic turboprops, AJT, third gen aircraft i.e. Mig-29K, 4th Gen MMRCA and 5th Gen PAKFA. Now DRDO –ADA thinks that they can leapfrog everything and develop a 5.5th Gen MCA=AMCA=FGFA in one stroke. We failed miserably in LCA, now the same mistake is going to be repeated.

I would prefer a AMCA which is Less advanced then PAKFA, less capable then PAKFA, less agile then PAKFA but more INDIAN then PAKFA
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by SriSri »

@vic It's still early in the day, where has the positivity gone? :-P
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shukla »

Ministry of Defence Comments
Crashes of Aircraft and Helicopters

A total of 60 aircrafts including MiG 21 and helicopters of the Defence forces have crashed during the last three years from financial year 2007-2008 till 8th November, 2010 in the current financial year. Forty three service personnel and five civilians were killed in these accidents. Twenty civilians were injured.

Compensation as per extant Government order is paid for the service personnel killed and civilians killed/injured. Each crash is investigated through a Court of Inquiry and remedial measures are undertaken accordingly to check their recurrence in future. Phasing out of a particular aircraft and its replacement is decided based on operational requirements of the services, which is reviewed from time to time.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Ravindra Kumar Pandey & others in Lok Sabha today.

SRS for Post-Crash Recovery

A Request For Information (RFI) was issued in September 2010 for Combat Search & Rescue Systems (SRS). The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to procure personal Rescue Beacons for its Fighter, Transport and Helicopter fleet and Emergency Location Transmitters (ELT) as well as Air borne Locator Interrogators for its Transport and Helicopters fleet. The estimated cost is Rs.120 crores.

During the past one year, there have been two fatal accidents and the bodies of three pilots who lost their lives in these accidents were recovered. Since these accidents took place near IAF airfields under positive control of Air Traffic Control (ATC), the present SRS was not required to be used to recover the bodies/debris.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Milind Deora in Lok Sabha today.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Vivek K »

failed in LCA??? When?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

We have a situation IMO in which the DRDO is not wrong but vic is right.

It is one thing for a research organization to try and develop technology - the politico-military considerationn demand that we have our own military goods that are sanctions proof.

Basically that means doing both - i.e research on one side but go ahead and produce indigenous hardware with what we have NOW even if it is 3 gen. or 3+ gen. I don't see the latter happening and in that sense my concern is the same as that expressed by vic.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Shiv,

The concerns raised by by no means without merit. But people haf to learn to take a leap. Else, we may never get any ware. The challanges needed to be overcome for the FGFA. May seem insurmountable to us. But with the sucess of the LCA. The ADA/ DRDO combo have enough confidence in there ability to come up with the FGFA. in the time frame of the IAF.

IF the project is adequately funded, then I see no reason why it cannot reach a sucess ful conclusion 15 years from the start of the project.

Also, it is project that must be under taken. Simply to make sure the skills acquired with the Tejas are not lost in the future.

The question is, is it too ambitious.

I will say no it is not. as from a 4th gen the logical progression is a 5th gen. As far the avionics fit of the FGFA is concerned. The future Mks of the Tejas can be used as test beds for it.

JMT onlee
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by abhik »

Craig Alpert wrote:Not sure why people think its something out of reach?? I mean a 5th gen cockpit display technology is already out in commercial world in use by Apple (ipad, iphone etc..) for something close to home there is the upcoming Notion Ink Adam tablet, & Hal-Samtel JV display which can improvise to add touch sensitive based GUI's. Yes it will need time, but given the time frame for development of AMCA it is completely feasible. Also Fiber Optics have been used extensively so making an air craft fly by light shouldn't prove to be a significant development, as US, Europe already have it on their production versions...As long as there is strong Political Will, IAF participation and enough funds for inhouse R&D the seems doable. God Speed to AMCA!
In fact I don't even see the need for "strong political will" to achieve most of the tech on the "wish list". Its only a natural progression from what we have already and will be mostly enabled by advancement in general electronics. Not developing these tech would probably mean that the Labs whose specialization it not really doing any research for the next few years.
Seems like a BS article from shiv aroor whose given a good amount of spin on the tidbits of information he has, there is no real info on the real beef i.e. engines, radar and IR sensors , armaments etc.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by JimmyJ »

When LCA was developed did we use any other platform for developing and testing individual system/ components?

Could LCA be used as a test bed for developing components for AMCA considering the fact that ADA/HAL/DRDO will have full ownership and authority on LCA?
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Pratyush »

Jimmy,

Offcourse. If they dont want to use the LCA, they can always use the Avro hack. Developed for the LCA.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Nihat »

I don't know where else to put this as Moderators don't allow AMCA thread to exist until GoI gives it official sanction, which is strange considering that no one ever publicly gave official sanction to SSBN programme.

from Livefist
If the specialised team led by Indian aerospace scientist Dr AK Ghosh achieves what it has set out to (a huge IF, with all due respect), then one of the most dramatic aspects of India's concept fifth generation Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) will be its cockpit and man-machine interface. For starters, unlike the cluttered, resoundingly less-than-fourth-generation cockpit of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA Tejas), the AMCA cockpit could have a panoramic active-matrix display. Next, switches, bezels and keypads could be replaced with touch screen interfaces and voice commands. Finally, what the team wants is for the AMCA pilot to have a helmet-mounted display system that allows the jettisoning of a HUD from the AMCA cockpit altogether. Some pretty hardcore stuff. But the idea is this -- if India is building its own fifth generation fighter aircraft (not to be confused with the Indo-Russian FGFA/PAK-FA), and believes it can deliver, then aim for the damn stars. I've got my hands on AMCA documents that provide the first detailed view of just how ambitious the programme actually is. Let me run you through some of them.

The AMCA team has already asked private industry in the country to explore the feasibility of creating primary panoramic displays and other avionics displays that would befit a fifth generation cockpit environment. But the cockpit is just one of an ambitious official technology wishlist for the AMCA.

The envisaged changes begin at the very basic -- system architecture -- and look towards a triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture with fiber optic links for signal and data communications, unlike the electric links on the Tejas platform. And unlike centralized architecture on the Tejas, the AMCA proposes to sport a distributed architecture with smart sub-systems. Similarly, unlike the LCA's centralised digital flight control computer (DFCC), the AMCA could have a distributed system with smart remote units for data communication with sensors and actuators, a system that will necessitate much faster on-board processors.

Next come sensors. The mechanical gyros and accelerometers on the Tejas will need to evolve on the AMCA into fiber optic gyros, ring laser gyros and MEMS gyros. The pressure probes and vanes that make up the air-data sensors will evolve into an optical and flush air data system, and position sensors will be linear/rotary optical encoders. Significantly, actuators -- currently electro-hydraulic/direct drive -- could be electro-hydrostatic to accrue substantive weight savings on the AMCA. Sensor fusion for an overarching situation picture goes without saying.

The AMCA could feature highly evolved integrated control laws for flight, propulsion, braking, nose wheel steer and fuel management and adaptive neural networks for fault detection, identification and control law reconfiguration.

I'm leaving out stealth from this piece, as I already covered it here in June, including internal weapons bays. And I've reported on the AMCA radar here.

Unlike the Tejas, which features an avionics systems architecture based on functionality-based individual computer systems connected on MIL-STD-1553B buses and RS 422 links, the AMCA's avionics systems architecture will feature a central computational system connected internally and externally on an optic fiber channel by means of multiport connectivity switching modules. In such a system, functionality will be mapped on resourcred optimally and reallocated when faults occur. At least, that's the idea. Data communications on the AMCA's processing modules will be through a high-speed fiber channel bus, IEEE-1394B-STD. The connectivities will be switched by means of a multiport switching matrix, with data speeds of 400MB/second.

The AMCA could have integrated radio naviation systems, where all functions earlier done by analogue circuits will be shifted onto the shoulders of digital processors. Communication system will be based on software radio ranging from UHF to K band, with data links for digital data/voice data and video.

Algorithms will evolve substantially too. While the Tejas features almost no decision aid, the AMCA pilot could have at his command the ability to plan attack strategies, avoid strategies, retreat strategies and evasive strategies for himself and his buddies. Limited fault recording and limited coverage in the maintenance and diagnostics algorithms on the LCA will evolve into far more advanced ones allowing extensive coverage.

This is an official technology wishlist for the AMCA. If it sounds far-fetched and overreaching -- and it well may -- it still provides a glimpse into what the programme is looking at for what will undoubtedly be India's most ambitious indigenous aerospace venture. Before I forget, here's a nice little slide illustrating the AMCA's envisaged operational envelope (subject of course to change).
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by srai »

Lalmohan wrote:is FGFA == F22
and
MCA == F35
?
FGFA will initially augment the SU-30MKI fleet in the heavy category and then partially replace them beyond 2035. FGFAs could reach close to 350+ (250 + 100+) by 2040.

AMCA will begin replacing the 50 Mirage-2000UPG, 60 MiG-29UPG and 80 JaguarUPG from around 2025/30 onwards, and 186 MRCAs (126+60opt) will need replacing between 2040-2050. By 2050, around 350+ AMCAs could be inducted.

Between 130-220 LCAs (40Mk.1 + 90 Mk.2 + 90 Mk.3?) will be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. 180 MKIs will need to be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. By 2050, 400 UCAVs could be in service.

By 2050, IAF could look like the following:
  • 350+ FGFA (a new platform needs to be ready by then to begin replacing these as they will be 25-30 years old)
  • 350+ AMCA (15-20 years old by then)
  • 400+ UCAV (10 years old by then)
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by P Chitkara »

As someone earlier said, these requirements are more of a natural progression. We faced problems with LCA mainly due to lack of experience and expertise. Those have now been built painfully over the years and the real benefits from those will show up in the AMCA.

As earlier, the project management will again be a critical factor. For AMCA to come out in 15 years, the private industry will also have to be roped in - it is far more mature now compared to the 80s and is in a position to contribute. Samtel being the prime example.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by koti »

Between 130-220 LCAs (40Mk.1 + 90 Mk.2 + 90 Mk.3?) will be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. 180 MKIs will need to be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. By 2050, 400 UCAVs could be in service.
UCAV from 2040??

It will be like IAF operating supersonic jets some 20 years after western airforces used them.

We already have HALE and MALE UAV's operational across the globe. So it won't be too long before Strike UCAV's will be operational given the need arises.
And I don't believe they will ever replace Air superiority platforms apart from augmenting them.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

The envisaged changes begin at the very basic -- system architecture -- and look towards a triplex fly-by-light electro-optic architecture with fiber optic links for signal and data communications, unlike the electric links on the Tejas platform. And unlike centralized architecture on the Tejas, the AMCA proposes to sport a distributed architecture with smart sub-systems. Similarly, unlike the LCA's centralised digital flight control computer (DFCC), the AMCA could have a distributed system with smart remote units for data communication with sensors and actuators, a system that will necessitate much faster on-board processors.

this is the kind of brochureitis and 'create work for the team' req that scares me. its ok to mandate better sensors, better stealth, better cockpit etc which definitely change even in a MLU.

but what is the advantage of fly by light over fly by wire for control & comms within a fighter airframe?
what is the advantage of changing a proven set of sw, hw and centralized architecture into distributed one ?
I am sure boeing X-planes and F22 are doing it, but why? is it operationally mandated or to support and justify R&D expenses on new things?

stuff like a proven codebase of lakhs of lines of code is worth their weight in GOLD imo , trying to distribute it, put it on the cloud, integrate with facebook and twitter, run 3rd party web apps on it is imo unjustified. code written decades ago for mainframes work superbly even today and so does the mainframe architecture when used appropriately.

change for the sake of change is unworthy of timebound and strategic projects.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Austin »

Latest AW&ST says that with no sign of CISMO/LSA the equipment missing is some excellent "communication equipment" that IAF will do well to operate.IAF on its part has been in talks with France/Israel for a year to procure some of these equipment for them but these will be subject to US approval

Quoting some senior US officials it says Washington needs more time in "educating" indian government on the benefit of these two accords
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

India should let it slip that those juicy C17 deal is considered being cancelled at the PMO level if desired help from US in integrating substitute eqpt on the MC-130 and P-8I is not guaranteed in writing.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by JTull »

Singha, my thoughts exactly. We should follow the French approach where such technologies should first be demonstrated on LCA. Also the tech roadmap for AMCA should be clear whereby what tech is a must for Tranche 1, 2 and so on. IMO the AMCA needs to demonstrate three characteristics in Tranch 1 (or by IOC): Airframe stealth, supercruise, and AESA radar. For goodness sake, India has never produced a twin engined fighter as big as AMCA. In Tranch 2 it can move to Electronic stealth with passive sensor fusion, L-Band airframe skin radars and so on.

There could be merit in using distributed architecture for sensors, but I don't see any explanation for the distributed architecture for Control Law or why itneeds to be fiberoptics based.

We have learnt a lot from the LCA project. ADA would do well to leverage as much as it can rather than score an own goal with another project that doesn't meet timetables when too many techs are pushed into the critical path of obtaining IOC for a new aircraft.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Singha »

yes lets just hope its not just job creation/cool technology creation oriented but planned towards (as you said), tranches of real working and deployable PRODUCTS. there is a lot of diff between technology protos and products that can survive in the field in their 100s of units. even Tejas mk1 still hasnt reached deployment status - some harsh lessons will no doubt be learnt in initial phase once HAL hands over to a regular IAF squadron...thats a gap in our education right now.
Last edited by Singha on 16 Nov 2010 16:39, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Willy »

The Govt should not sanction the MCA till core technologies are at an advanced stage of development and 100% likely to succeed.


And yes compared to cockpits of existing aircraft out there the cockpit of the LCA is a bit ugly and cluttered.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by JTull »

Willy wrote:The Govt should not sanction the MCA till core technologies are at an advanced stage of development and 100% likely to succeed.


And yes compared to cockpits of existing aircraft out there the cockpit of the LCA is a bit ugly and cluttered.
That's a defeatist attitude. We will never have a technology unless we know how we plan to use it. There was a huge time, tech and engineering gap when LCA project started so it took a while before a credible platform was achieved. AMCA has the benefit of continuity. Let's use the continuity and build a 5G airframe with 5G/4.5G tech from FGFA, LCA, MMRCA and other commercially available sources. Let's achieve IOC and then we can go for more exotic variant in Tranche 2. Believe me, there's much they can use directly from these platforms, so why the need for such fantasy list.

Most new aircraft take 10years of operational experience to fully realise their potential. It takes several incremental updates to achieve that. Rafale is definitely a newer generation airframe, but it has nothing that had not been tested on M2K before. Moreover most of the newer stuff in F2/F3 has been tested on M2K after Rafale got IOC.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

koti wrote:
Between 130-220 LCAs (40Mk.1 + 90 Mk.2 + 90 Mk.3?) will be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. 180 MKIs will need to be replaced by the UCAV post 2040. By 2050, 400 UCAVs could be in service.
UCAV from 2040??

It will be like IAF operating supersonic jets some 20 years after western airforces used them.

We already have HALE and MALE UAV's operational across the globe. So it won't be too long before Strike UCAV's will be operational given the need arises.
And I don't believe they will ever replace Air superiority platforms apart from augmenting them.
I completely agree.UCAV project should be executed in parallel with AMCA and should be inducted in the same time frame as AMCA.Infact if there is a paucity of resources and manpower then priority should be given to UCAV project.

We are already participating in one manned 5th gen fighter program with russians(FGFA).Even US is ready to sell us F-35.So as far as manned fifth gen fighter aircraft is concerned we do have options available.But no one will sell us UCAV(MTCR regulations).Hence UCAV project should be accorded a higher priority than AMCA.Money and Manpower should not be allowed to become issues for UCAV project.If needed collaboration with countries like Israel should also be considered.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

shukla wrote:Ministry of Defence Comments
Crashes of Aircraft and Helicopters

A total of 60 aircrafts including MiG 21 and helicopters of the Defence forces have crashed during the last three years from financial year 2007-2008 till 8th November, 2010 in the current financial year. Forty three service personnel and five civilians were killed in these accidents. Twenty civilians were injured.

Compensation as per extant Government order is paid for the service personnel killed and civilians killed/injured. Each crash is investigated through a Court of Inquiry and remedial measures are undertaken accordingly to check their recurrence in future. Phasing out of a particular aircraft and its replacement is decided based on operational requirements of the services, which is reviewed from time to time.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Ravindra Kumar Pandey & others in Lok Sabha today.

SRS for Post-Crash Recovery

A Request For Information (RFI) was issued in September 2010 for Combat Search & Rescue Systems (SRS). The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to procure personal Rescue Beacons for its Fighter, Transport and Helicopter fleet and Emergency Location Transmitters (ELT) as well as Air borne Locator Interrogators for its Transport and Helicopters fleet. The estimated cost is Rs.120 crores.

During the past one year, there have been two fatal accidents and the bodies of three pilots who lost their lives in these accidents were recovered. Since these accidents took place near IAF airfields under positive control of Air Traffic Control (ATC), the present SRS was not required to be used to recover the bodies/debris.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Milind Deora in Lok Sabha today.
Extremely sad state of affairs.Atleast the IAF should completely replace all its MIG-21s and 27s with LCA mk1.India is one of those countries where more planes and pilots have been lost to Crashes than due to enemy action in all the wars combined that we have fought.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

Marten wrote:
Singha wrote:yes lets just hope its not just job creation/cool technology creation oriented but planned towards (as you said), tranches of real working and deployable PRODUCTS. there is a lot of diff between technology protos and products that can survive in the field in their 100s of units. even Tejas mk1 still hasnt reached deployment status - some harsh lessons will no doubt be learnt in initial phase once HAL hands over to a regular IAF squadron...thats a gap in our education right now.
I'm afraid the specs for the MCA might be set so high that we will not see an operational squadron in play (since by that time the world would be churning out a great number of UCAV brochures that will instead interest the IAF).
Marten ji.The only problem is that even if India wants to buy UCAVs , according to MTCR regulations no signatory would be able to sell any decent UCAVs without bypassing MTCR or changing the regulations themselves.It would not be that easy.Hence it is IAF's interest to get itself involved in UCAV development being undertaken by DRDO.Otherwise when advanced Air Forces all over the world would be inducting UCAVs we would be wringing our dicks.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Viv S »

darshhan wrote:Extremely sad state of affairs.Atleast the IAF should completely replace all its MIG-21s and 27s with LCA mk1.India is one of those countries where more planes and pilots have been lost to Crashes than due to enemy action in all the wars combined that we have fought.
I'm pretty sure that applies to all countries in the post WWII period.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by putnanja »

Strategic Strokes
The Indian air force is exploring upgrade options for U.S. military aircraft that will be handed over without key capabilities in the absence of an agreement governing those systems.

The U.S. is withholding several subsystems until India ratifies the Communication Interoperability and Security Memorandum of Agreement, which governs current and future transfers of intelligence systems to India. India is not ready to commit to the security pact and instead is willing to take slightly less capable U.S. systems initially, expecting to backfill the missing features later.

The strategy will be tested when the Indian air force starts taking delivery of six Lockheed Martin C-130Js next month. They are the first U.S.-built aircraft the country has acquired in 40 years.

...
...
Service officials say discussions are already underway with Israel and France on ways to upgrade the C-130Js to sidestep the security pact. Those talks date back almost a year and cover purchase of advanced encrypted communications equipment for the Indian C-130Js. However, the U.S. would have to approve the upgrade, an Indian air force acquisition official notes.

The equipment India wants that is off the list mostly centers on communications, including the AN/ARC-222 Single-Channel Ground and Airborne Radio System (Sincgars), Raytheon KV-119 IFF Digital Transponder, Tacterm/ANDVT Secure Voice (HF) terminal and the Vinson KY-58 Secure Voice (UHF/VHF) module.

“The technology that is being withheld is some excellent communications equipment that the [Indian air force] would do well to own and operate, especially since special operations are part of the fleet profile,” the acquisition officer says. “However, considering the larger political picture, it has been generally agreed that sourcing such equipment from a third party will not pose an operational problem. We are in discussions with all concerned regarding the integration of such equipment on a [U.S.-provided] platform.”

....
...
Besides the $5-billion C-17 deal, there was an order for 107 General Electric F414 engines for India’s Light Combat Aircraft valued at $822 million. There also were several team arrangements. Software developer Palantir Technologies of Palo Alto, Calif., says it will help the Maharashtra State Police to identify security threats, and Implant Sciences of Wilmington, Mass., will provide its Quantum Sniffer H-150 explosives detection technology to the Indian army.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by shiv »

Viv S wrote:
darshhan wrote:Extremely sad state of affairs.Atleast the IAF should completely replace all its MIG-21s and 27s with LCA mk1.India is one of those countries where more planes and pilots have been lost to Crashes than due to enemy action in all the wars combined that we have fought.
I'm pretty sure that applies to all countries in the post WWII period.
This is correct. And that much criticized man - Prodyut Das says that in his latest article in Vayu as a powerful argument for twin engine fighters. Peacetime attrition IS the biggest cause of loss of aircraft.

Apart from the MiG21 which was rather unfairly called flying coffin, crash specialists have included the F-101 Voodoo, the F-104 Starfighter, and yes the F-16.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

Viv S wrote:
darshhan wrote:Extremely sad state of affairs.Atleast the IAF should completely replace all its MIG-21s and 27s with LCA mk1.India is one of those countries where more planes and pilots have been lost to Crashes than due to enemy action in all the wars combined that we have fought.
I'm pretty sure that applies to all countries in the post WWII period.
I doubt if your argument is true.Check the vietnam war.USA alone lost more than 2000 planes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_l ... ietnam_War

Russians lost more than 400 aircrafts in Afghanistan war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war ... casualties


So I doubt if your above argument is true.But yes you can argue that these were extended and protracted wars which had degenerated into wars of attrition.

The point that I want to make is that our planes are crashing mainly due to obsolence.I do not see SU 30 MKI crashing this often or for that matter Mirage-2000.Even Mig-29 does not seem to crash that much.It is only Mig-21 and 27 that seem to crash mostly.That is why I said these planes have to be replaced as quickly as possible.According to me the best contender would be LCA MK1.
Lalmohan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Lalmohan »

the key factor to look at is crashes per 1000 flight hours...
that will tell you the real picture
this topic has been beaten around the musharraf on BRF before
Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

darshhan wrote:Extremely sad state of affairs.Atleast the IAF should completely replace all its MIG-21s and 27s with LCA mk1.India is one of those countries where more planes and pilots have been lost to Crashes than due to enemy action in all the wars combined that we have fought.
what is an extremely sad state of affairs ? peacetime attrition is a fact of life. All military arms the world over know that. If you are shocked by attrition rates without looking into what they are per 10,000 hours of flying then its your fault.

BTW, the second statement of yours about "India is one of those countries" is true for ALL nations that have large airforces who adhere to strict training regimens. the US, UK, France, Germany, South Korea, etc. all have lost more aircraft and crew during peacetime than during combat ops. Unless you want our AF to rest during peace or only train on simulators, you will never get 0 attrition rates.
darshhan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

^^Kartik ji .Your interpretation of my post is out of context.You haven't even bothered to read the next post that I made.Even I know that there are lot of parameters involved as far as crashes are involved.

For the last time I am emphasizing that according to what I have read it is mostly the MIG-21s AND 27s which are crashing and not the other planes like SU-30MKI,Mirage-2000 or Mig-29.I believe this is mainly due to the obsolence of Mig-21s and Mig-27s.

While I am aware that there will be some peacetime attrition of aircraft , 60 crashes in three years many of them involving MIG-21s and 27s is not a good sign.It is not fair to the pilots in my opinion.

Hence I would like to see both variants of MIG replaced as early as possible and the replacement program should be carried out on war footing.
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Rahul M »

60 crashes in 3 years ?
darshhan
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by darshhan »

^^Yes according to this post.
shukla wrote:Ministry of Defence Comments
Crashes of Aircraft and Helicopters

A total of 60 aircrafts including MiG 21 and helicopters of the Defence forces have crashed during the last three years from financial year 2007-2008 till 8th November, 2010 in the current financial year. Forty three service personnel and five civilians were killed in these accidents. Twenty civilians were injured.

Compensation as per extant Government order is paid for the service personnel killed and civilians killed/injured. Each crash is investigated through a Court of Inquiry and remedial measures are undertaken accordingly to check their recurrence in future. Phasing out of a particular aircraft and its replacement is decided based on operational requirements of the services, which is reviewed from time to time.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Ravindra Kumar Pandey & others in Lok Sabha today.

SRS for Post-Crash Recovery

A Request For Information (RFI) was issued in September 2010 for Combat Search & Rescue Systems (SRS). The Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to procure personal Rescue Beacons for its Fighter, Transport and Helicopter fleet and Emergency Location Transmitters (ELT) as well as Air borne Locator Interrogators for its Transport and Helicopters fleet. The estimated cost is Rs.120 crores.

During the past one year, there have been two fatal accidents and the bodies of three pilots who lost their lives in these accidents were recovered. Since these accidents took place near IAF airfields under positive control of Air Traffic Control (ATC), the present SRS was not required to be used to recover the bodies/debris.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Milind Deora in Lok Sabha today.
Kartik
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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Post by Kartik »

darshhan wrote:^^Kartik ji .Your interpretation of my post is out of context.You haven't even bothered to read the next post that I made.Even I know that there are lot of parameters involved as far as crashes are involved.

For the last time I am emphasizing that according to what I have read it is mostly the MIG-21s AND 27s which are crashing and not the other planes like SU-30MKI,Mirage-2000 or Mig-29.I believe this is mainly due to the obsolence of Mig-21s and Mig-27s.

While I am aware that there will be some peacetime attrition of aircraft , 60 crashes in three years many of them involving MIG-21s and 27s is not a good sign.It is not fair to the pilots in my opinion.

Hence I would like to see both variants of MIG replaced as early as possible and the replacement program should be carried out on war footing.
No need for ji, Darshann. There may be 60 crashes, but how many are those of MiG-21s and -27s ? the issue with the MiG-27 attrition seems to have started only recently.
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