Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): Oct. 20, 2010

[A_Gupta]

Something positive for a change:
http://www.razarumi.com/2010/11/19/isla ... meed-khan/

AKH is remembered in Bangladesh as perhaps the only positive legacy of the united Pakistan....Ministers, bureaucrats, NGOs, media persons, all would recall his contributions. Khan Saheb’s emphasis on the potential of rural women has been taken forward by Bangladesh with a missionary zeal and the results are clear and tangible.......AHK’s work influenced the work in under-privileged India as well.Kappula Raju’s essay The Gandhian of the Poor narrates how in the past 12 years, the poor of Andra Pradesh have transformed their lives by setting up self-managed organizations that cover more than 8 million people. Acquiring the title ‘Gandhian’ is not always easy for Indians and is especially rare for Pakistanis....

[brihaspati]

["Pratyush"]

But reading the view of the shopkeeper above was revolting. That he thinks that killing a non believer is OK. What kind of religion sanctions the murder of people who follow a diffrent path.[]

Friend , it is Islam.

not really darshan, but I see where you are coming from. Incase of Pakistan and pakistani's or even Kashmiri's for that matter this belief stems from a seige mentality which evolves over decades when people tend to stay in their own cuckoon and staunchly deny any wrongdoing by turning their face away. Nationalism and theocracy become one and the same thing and it spreads like a cancer.

One single example of a country where this religion obtained numerical majority that had not turned over the long term into violently anti-non-religionist? Even poster boys like Turkey or Egypt or independent BD or Malaysia or even Indonesia shows signs of the original face of the religion.

One of the primary reasons that this problem has never been solved are exactly the type of ignorance shown here about the real track record, the philosophies, and implementation of the religion right from its foundation. For once, come out of the self-delusion that the "religion" and "its implementation/nationalism" are distinct. It is not true even by their own claims and theology - which explicitly demands that the state, religion, and nation be fused into one. Long term tendencies in every Muslim nation is the same. Pakistan's was simply accelerated because of promotion by USA. (Prior to that its formation itself was promoted by the Brits) But the fact of external sponsorship or encouragement is most often used to make that external sponsorship the sole building factor.

How can you grow abundant crops if the soil and weather already did not have the right conditions for growth of the particular crop? You may just give more fertilizers or more artificial irrigation. But without a soil and climate match - it will be most difficult.

Why does it have to be siege mentality in Kashmir or Pak? Who was "seiging" them? India? The West? B*******! No the siege mentality is an inherent and core aspect of the religion, because it sees each and every relation or interaction with the non-religionist in terms of war and "struggle" and confrontation. This is why the tendency to form ghettos - geographically contiguous and consolidated areas where only Muslims should be living, the tendency to ethncically or religiously cleanse such areas by periodic riots or pogroms or jihads, the tendency to create a "territory" exclusively for Muslims as a kind of castle or base from within which the further struggle or war against the "non-Muslim" is to be expanded and carried out. It is a theology of continuous war - where peacetime and war time merge into one smooth fanatical continuity.

Fail to understand this fundamental aspect - and you will never succeed in solving the problem called Pak or "Kashmir" valley.

[JE Menon]

Glorious post.

[chandrabhan]

Brihaspatiji,
It is very typical of people with insecurities and inferiority complex. They become a close knit on a pretext and numbers somehow give them security. May be leaving the faith of ancestors and no possibility of recourse has forced them to assert their faith more aggressively. They will be killed if they try and get out so stay engaged in getting more and more in through whatever means.

[Pratyush]

B,

How do you solve a problem without resorting to genocide or the threat there off.

[Pulikeshi]

^ Agreed.

At a personal level it is some variant of the Stockholm Syndrome.
At a higher level, the substance being peddled, is a 'black and white' us versus them
The combination of the two is what makes the ideology so incendiary!

Not sure about the path yet, but some 'lateral' middle ground will need to be found.
Even if the entity called TSP explodes, internally or due to external forces, the virulent
ideology may not be done. Something else will need to be invented to replace the vacuum.

[anupmisra]

Conflict resolution expert. .

How does one resolve this gripe/conflict?

Hollywood actresses nowadays carry handbags with “Made in India” logos printed on them

[brihaspati]

Delegitimize the theologians. If the theologians turn out to be powerless, their visions and predictions of future glory turn out to be false, the "purest" face the greatest humilation and defeat - then that breaks the confidence that this theology is "truthful" and its spokespersons are "reliable". An inclusive alternative may help. But none possible without rashtryia control and supervision, especially sovereignty - to prevent rescue by external sources.

Exposure, pressure, enticement, inclusion after application of "deep cleansing milk" perhaps even purgatives (stretching over generations). People's minds are rewritable chips. Overwhelming pressures and movements can literally wipe the slate clean of those that are fundamentally against human nature of limitless curiosity, seeking knowledge, general peaceful cohabitation and pursuit of peace and happiness - (those are engraved into the slate and difficult to rewrite) and rewrite happier phrases.

It is also practically important to bring the followers and leaders into sharp conflict over concrete issues like land-ownership in countries like Pak. It is here that the greatest upsets that the hugely land rich feudals and the Dawaist networks and their mullahs will be forced to reveal themselves as against the interests of their people.

The things is - so far they have managed by providing an apparent convergence of interests : between elite and the non-elite, in the prospect of gaining new lands, women, wealth from the non-Muslim, and an ever-present non-muslim mythical antagonist out to destroy the Muslim. Almost the same reason the Nazis invented the evil Jew (and before them Europeans in general who learned it in turn from early Muslim encounters). But that outward focus needs to be turned inwards and reveal the fault lines of interests within Islamic society itself. Pak is a ripe candidate for this.

Land reforms - and redistribution of feudal and Dawa land into landless and marginal hands. Islam may try to buttress the castle walls with dogma about sanctity of ownership - but sufficient hunger and prospect of food brings out the wild animal in the most cultured human being. Somehow raise the issue as a core demand and you will see the mullahs and their collaborator feudals and paki army command torn limb by limb.

[svenkat]

Bji,
Yet large tracts of India insulated itself under long periods of alien rule.Was it become our civilisation had withdrawn into a shell making penetration very difficult? Your comments.If OT,in some other thread.

[ajit_tr]

Pak traders thank cash-rich Indian customers at the Trade Fair
Indo-Asian News Service
New Delhi, November 19, 2010

Pakistani textiles, spices and handicrafts have become huge hits at the 30th India International Trade Fair (IITF) in New Delhi. Pakistani traders have reported bumper sales thanks to cash-rich Indian customers. Ali Noor, a Karachi-based Pakistani businessman dealing in spices and readymade food pastes, said, "This is my first experience at the Trade Fair. It's only three days now and the sales have been great."

[harbans]

^^ B Ji well said. I have always maintained that exposure and directly expsosing the ideology of hatred, expansionism will pay more dividends than one of trying to appease and attempted assimilation. Just does'nt work that way. Attack always the doctrine. Not the manipulators whoever they may be, the US or Russia or UK. These manipulators have come and gone throughout centuries. But the core doctrine that produces mass Jihadi's must be tackled relentlessly and it's psec defenders stripped of their false and psuedo scientific arguments.

[Dipanker]

^ Agreed.

At a personal level it is some variant of the Stockholm Syndrome.
At a higher level, the substance being peddled, is a 'black and white' us versus them
The combination of the two is what makes the ideology so incendiary!

Not sure about the path yet, but some 'lateral' middle ground will need to be found.
Even if the entity called TSP explodes, internally or due to external forces, the virulent
ideology may not be done. Something else will need to be invented to replace the vacuum.

IMO "US versus THEM" or "Faithfuls against the Infidels" division is what puts Islam in conflict with everybody else.

The Ulema should reform Islam, and its about time they did, whereby people of all religious ideologies, are addressed as faithfuls, thus ridding Islam of this "us versus them" thinking.

This is a must for peaceful coexistence and should not be a difficult thing to do.

[darshhan]

^ Agreed.

At a personal level it is some variant of the Stockholm Syndrome.
At a higher level, the substance being peddled, is a 'black and white' us versus them
The combination of the two is what makes the ideology so incendiary!

Not sure about the path yet, but some 'lateral' middle ground will need to be found.
Even if the entity called TSP explodes, internally or due to external forces, the virulent
ideology may not be done. Something else will need to be invented to replace the vacuum.

IMO "US versus THEM" or "Faithfuls against the Infidels" division is what puts Islam in conflict with everybody else.

The Ulema should reform Islam, and its about time they did, whereby people of all religious ideologies, are addressed as faithfuls, thus ridding Islam of this "us versus them" thinking.

This is a must for peaceful coexistence and should not be a difficult thing to do.

Dipanker ji , This "us vs them" ideology comes directly from Quran.Hence you can never depend on Ulema to discard this ideology and reform islam since this would amount to changing quran itself.They have most to lose from such an action.It is like asking a tiger to become a vegetarian.You have to create a schism between the ulema i.e. islamic clergy and ordinary muslims so that these regular types can ask questions about islamic ideology.So that they can explore other alternatives.When this happens change will automatically come.

[chetak]

Pak traders thank cash-rich Indian customers at the Trade Fair
Indo-Asian News Service
New Delhi, November 19, 2010

Pakistani textiles, spices and handicrafts have become huge hits at the 30th India International Trade Fair (IITF) in New Delhi. Pakistani traders have reported bumper sales thanks to cash-rich Indian customers. Ali Noor, a Karachi-based Pakistani businessman dealing in spices and readymade food pastes, said, "This is my first experience at the Trade Fair. It's only three days now and the sales have been great."

Really??



Noor is a delighted man.

"Indians are a beautiful people. They come not just to buy but also to inquire about the state of our country with a lot concern and care. Right now Pakistan is going trough some tough times but people from both sides have a lot of love to share," Noor told said.

[Pulikeshi]

An inclusive alternative may help. But none possible without rashtryia control and supervision, especially sovereignty - to prevent rescue by external sources.

There are limits to what GOI can do - the failure is entirely IMHO on Indian civilization.
GOI is secular and has only responsibility to governing its citizens well.
For the most part it has taken a legalistic geo-political approach to TSP.

1. GOI has to decide what geo-strategic solutions and end goals are acceptable.
2. It will require non-govt agencies to handle the 'heart' of the problem.

The former is under the 'burqa' of high thinking of GOI, the latter is non-existent in
that the aam janta is hardly aware of where it's civilization is going, what will it do to
change course of others. Chai biskoot and popcorn onlee. Jingos just add tamasha!

Rather pessimistic on outcomes!

Bji,
Yet large tracts of India insulated itself under long periods of alien rule.Was it become our civilisation had withdrawn into a shell making penetration very difficult? Your comments.If OT,in some other thread.

Yes, one could imagine a slow motion movie -

1. Civilization begins in Indian sub-continent - spreads to through out the world.
2. Induces civilization around the world to become reflections of the original.
3. Some of these become powerful enough to seek the source and invade it.
4. Eventually, India as we know it wins independence
5. Aam Janta only remember 3 & 4.
6. India has reduced itself into the minimal shell that is can resurrect itself
7. Will it? Will it rip apart the chains and re-civilize the world again?

That is IMHO the beacoup rupee question!

[RamaY]

B,

How do you solve a problem without resorting to genocide or the threat there off.

Why people think one has to kill a person to remove the religion out of him/her? This is the strategy for barbarians.

The Indic answer is to remove the religion from public space. It doesn't require any organized (which makes it genocide) physical elimination. It is a different matter if some (less than 0.0001%) hard-core religionists prefer physical annihilation in the process.

[RamaY]

There are limits to what GOI can do - the failure is entirely IMHO on Indian civilization.
GOI is secular and has only responsibility to governing its citizens well.
For the most part it has taken a legalistic geo-political approach to TSP.

1. GOI has to decide what geo-strategic solutions and end goals are acceptable.
2. It will require non-govt agencies to handle the 'heart' of the problem.

It should be the other way around IMHO. GOI, its laws and administration should be overtly Hindu.

Indians are secular at individual level anyway.

[shiv]

A sudden thought. I'm no engineer, but I am told that one way of building certain structures is to "pre stress" them. A "pre stressed structure" is under stress even before it is utilized. It has a potential springiness that is ready and waiting to counteract opposing force that it is designed to oppose. The pre stressed material is "comfortable" and performing what it was designed for when that opposing force is applied.

Islamic societies are "pre-stressed" societies. The are pre-designed to oppose a non Islamic society. The society becomes strongest and most comfortable when opposing a non Islamic society. It is under tension when unopposed. Any society that has no ready made design to oppose Islam is stressed and pushed by Islamic society and must oppose it to oppose it to survive. But opposition to islamic society gives Islamic society just what it was designed for - i.e the message that "others are against Islam". And if others do not behave like they are against islam, Islam will oppose them and demand submission or wipe them out. But Islams internal tensions manifest only after the others are eliminated.

I do not state this as new information; Just an analogy that occurred to me. The significance is that Islamic societies expect others to be against them. If they are not against them, Islamic societies will stress the others until they bend. If they bend, fine. If they don't bend and instead oppose Islamic society, then is is called "anti-Islam" and the drive to eliminate the other for being anti-Islamic starts.

The "pre stressing" of Islam starts in childhood with the indoctrination "We are good-others are bad". But we have been though all his in years past. Sorry. OT

But for a non Islamic society to survive it is essential to oppose Islam. The only other alternative is to bend. So conflict is inevitable and necessary. No way around it. No point being squeamish or apologetic. If this called Islamophobia, so what? No point being squeamish or phobic about being called names.

[harbans]

But for a non Islamic society to survive it is essential to oppose Islam. The only other alternative is to bend. So conflict is inevitable and necessary. No way around it. No point being squeamish or apologetic. If this called Islamophobia, so what? No point being squeamish or phobic about being called names.

Precisely Shiv Ji, good analogy too. That's why so many of us want doctrinal debates. Thats what Saraswati Dayanand did. He took pains to learn Arabic and read the Koran and Haddith in arabic. Many Mullahs did not know Arabic and he engaged them in village debates. Many villages were reverted to the indic fold peacefully.

Thats why free speech must be guarded like one's life. Even if criticism of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc is on the cards. Because it also allows people like Dayanand, Ali Sina to come to the fore. Those are the ones that will and can win the battle of the "Us or Them" or Dar Ul Islam/ Dar ul Harb mentality. All of us are humans and that includes millions of well meaning Muslims who truly and naturally don't mean to think in those divisive terms. We have to bring them out before more damage is done to us or them.

[darshhan]

But for a non Islamic society to survive it is essential to oppose Islam. The only other alternative is to bend. So conflict is inevitable and necessary. No way around it. No point being squeamish or apologetic. If this called Islamophobia, so what? No point being squeamish or phobic about being called names.

Precisely Shiv Ji, good analogy too. That's why so many of us want doctrinal debates. Thats what Saraswati Dayanand did. He took pains to learn Arabic and read the Koran and Haddith in arabic. Many Mullahs did not know Arabic and he engaged them in village debates. Many villages were reverted to the indic fold peacefully.

Thats why free speech must be guarded like one's life. Even if criticism of Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism etc is on the cards. Because it also allows people like Dayanand, Ali Sina to come to the fore. Those are the ones that will and can win the battle of the "Us or Them" or Dar Ul Islam/ Dar ul Harb mentality. All of us are humans and that includes millions of well meaning Muslims who truly and naturally don't mean to think in those divisive terms. We have to bring them out before more damage is done to us or them.

Harbans ji , I agree with you completely that quranic and hadith knowledge is a must for understanding islamists and only then one can beat islamism at doctrinal debates.Also in order to understand your enemy you have to understand his source of inspiration.I will give you my personal experience.I used to think all religions are equal and all propagate peace and kindness.But imagine my shock when I first started reading islam.I would advise infidels to go ahead and read quran and other islamic scriptures even if they do not read their own religious books.

[Pulikeshi]

It should be the other way around IMHO. GOI, its laws and administration should be overtly Hindu.

Indians are secular at individual level anyway.

Lets agree to disagree!
That Hindu's have outsourced their religious laws to GOI is OT here.
That GOI is pursuing the betterment of (ALL) its citizens, as per the current social contract, needs to be upheld.

Even if one were to revert, it will be difficult to show how that helps!
Beyond a hankering back to some past glory it may not achieve the desired end goals.
I will be happy to indulge in a discussion, as time permits, in 'burqa'.

[Pulikeshi]

But for a non Islamic society to survive it is essential to oppose Islam. The only other alternative is to bend. So conflict is inevitable and necessary. No way around it. No point being squeamish or apologetic. If this called Islamophobia, so what? No point being squeamish or phobic about being called names.

Shiv,

It will be too late to wait for the ideology to be opposed and reformed.
What is needed is a least path of resistance alternative, that the Indian Civilization,
will have to provide. To use a crude analogy - every Crusader comes with a Priest/Nun.
One hand holds the sword and the other palm held downwards in peace.
Without an alternate ideology, even another organized religion existing or otherwise,
that can be used as a half way house, merely mirroring the 'us and them' back will not work.

As always my humble two paisa for free!

[RajeshA]

If it is all pre-pressed and opposition to it won't break it, then one should simply use some other method - pump its insides with air, acid, or water - just corrupt it.

Christianity's hold over the Europeans was broken, when the Europeans started to make fun of the clergy, the tenets, the symbols. If tenets and symbols cannot be made fun of, then society should show that the clergy is corrupted, power-hungry, ill-educated and worth making fun of.

In a consumerist culture without communal tensions, if instead of going to the prayer-house, people start making fun of the housekeepers, their hold on minds of the aam abduls would crumble. The government only has to give absolute protection to the people to make fun of the clergy and go at clergy with tongs and hammer if they threaten social peace.

Somehow I think, that the half-house is non-practice and atheism, and not another religion.

One needs to saturate the social space with other stuff - work, education, sports, video-games, clubbing that there is no time for religion.

That is the solution - consumerism and mocking humor.

[ramana]

In England it was Chaucer's Canterbury Tales which started the changes seen later under Henry VIII.

[MurthyB]

Message from a gangster
By: Vikram Maurya

I Chhota Shakeel (a gangster) <snipped>

What exactly is the relevance of this post in this thread ?
Rahul.

[darshhan]

^^Great post Murthy ji.If only every other infidel could do this kind of linking.

[biswas]

Religious hatred, Murthyji?

[Mauli]

^^^^ i saw it on Faithfreedom almost a month back. Given that i have already been Shaeedizied once for posting from FFI, I didn't dare.

[Prem]

Can we have the photo, statue or portrait of Don for Darshan?

[Pulikeshi]

Perhaps the good doctor's advice on 'pre-stressed' mindset is lost on birathers here...

[shiv]

If it is all pre-pressed and opposition to it won't break it, then one should simply use some other method - pump its insides with air, acid, or water - just corrupt it.

True. Of course the purpose of my analogy was really to say that unless you are ready and willing to oppose it you are toast because it comes ready to eat you up. Even before it meets you it is ready to say that you are wrong. You, on the other hand, may not be indoctrinated to think that Islam is wrong or that you should be ready to fight or kill a follower if he disagrees on points of belief.

Inevitable conflict is the lesson that resurgent Islamic extremism is sending out. And conflict is exactly what it needs to be given. There is no space for waffling or uncertainty. I believe India in particular is waffling in allowing nations like Saudi Arabia to get away with their demands. Of course that is an indicator of India's own relative beggar status.

[Rupesh]

Can anyone post this weeks Snippets from Jumma Times....

[RamaY]

Can we have the photo, statue or portrait of Don for Darshan?

That is prohibited (as the authorities are looking for him). You can meet him when you die killing other gang members. Otherwise no darshan for you.

You cannot hold portraits of me (Chota Shakeel - The final gangster) either, because I look too ugly in portraits or anything of that sort.

- Chota Shakeel

Disclaimer: Any resemblance to historical figures or events is coincidental.

[shiv]

DISCLAIMER (added by me, not Vikram Maurya) "Any resemblance to historical figures or events is coincidental."

Do you mean there might really have been a "historical figure" whose memory might be offended by this? I wouldn't have guessed if it wasn't for the disclaimer. Do I detect a hint of fear of consequences that justify the disclaimer?

"I did not say this. Somebody else said it. And not only did somebody else say this - I am adding a disclaimer to boot to save myself from consequences and responsibility"

[Brad Goodman]

Power ship arrives to supply Pakistan

A company official says the world's largest ship-based power plant has arrived off the Pakistani coast to try to mitigate the country's chronic electricity shortages.

Orient Power spokesman Asad Mahmood says the ship will generate about 230 megawatts

how much kickbacks would this kind of deal have?

[Brad Goodman]

Eight take ill after eating burgers in Pakistan

this is all I could find for freakin friddin

[Brad Goodman]

IMF hints at additional financing to Pakistan

ISLAMABAD: International Monetary Fund (IMF) has indicated providing Pakistan additional financing and said that the fund-supported programme could accommodate additional foreign assistance during 2010/11. The macroeconomic effects of this would be generally favorable, including revived growth

baksheesh on its way

[archan]

Be careful folks, a trigger happy bradmin is around and he hasn't fired his helphyrr in a while...
Let this thread be for the pakis.

[shynee]

State collusion with the Taliban? —Farhat Taj

[Pratyush]

Why people think one has to kill a person to remove the religion out of him/her? This is the strategy for barbarians.

The Indic answer is to remove the religion from public space. It doesn't require any organized (which makes it genocide) physical elimination. It is a different matter if some (less than 0.0001%) hard-core religionists prefer physical annihilation in the process.

Rama,

The question was asked considering the fact that every past attempt to remove Islam from public life has ended in faliure. With shouts of Islam in danger. That in turn is used to create a siege mentality. In order to leep the flock together.

In this situation the only way of dealing with the population is to threaten the population with a threat of extinction with sufficient credibility to induce a change of behavour. The Key word in this case is threat and not the actual implimentation of it.

JMT